I'm sorry if this post is waffle today, but I needed to write something down.

I wanted to post today because sometimes I feel such overwhelming sadness and I can't always articulate why I feel that. Yes, of course, I'm greiving, I'm suffering a loss, but sometimes it's something more. I hope that the people out there thinking of having an A may read this and something may ring a bell and it may stop them.

Today, in the UK, it is the final of a big Rugby League match. H is a big big fan and many years ago he took me to a match "just to see". Well, I was hooked. Sport to me had previously been the FA Cup Final, Grand National and something that was of interest to other people. Within minutes, I couldn't believe I was shrieking "Are you blind ref, can't you get 'em onside!!!!!" I couldn't believe how much I loved it. My love of sport grew then. I am a keen cricket enthusiast, and whilst football (soccer) still doesn't grab me, well, there are many things that do....

Every year (except last year) pretty much, H and I and a bunch of the "lads" - well normally me and about 10-15 lads <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> would trek off to Wembley for the "big day out". Last year, H was in Germany, I missed him. This year, who knows where or who H is with. I still miss him. I tried to explain to my friend that I wanted to watch the match needed to "It's only a rugby match, surely it doesn't rule your life". I couldn't understand at first why I felt upset by this. Over the last day or two I worked it out.

I remember once after becoming hooked saying to H "Sport for these people isn't sport is it, it's a way of life", and for me too, this sport has become a way of life. And with that is all the loss that I feel today. I won't go to H's home town again for a match at the local ground (which will close this year), no pie and pint at half time, none of MIL's fantastic home cooked chips, no freezing cold New Year's day cheering on "our" side even though they get battered, no horrendous drives up the M6, no more Auntie D and ham shanks, no more of that family or that way of life ever again.

My way of life has disintegrated and crumbled before my very eyes and really, I have no one to blame but myself. I cannot begin to describe how this realisation has hit me and deeply affected me. I just can't stop crying today and it pains me so much to think that maybe H is now introducing OW to "our" way of life. But now, because of what I did, I have no claim to make on that way of life, it is no longer "ours" or "mine".

So, the moral of the story. Well, some of the things you loose you don't even realise at first how important they are - yes a stupid rugby match can set you on a chain of thoughts which make you realise what a fool you have been.

Lisa

<small>[ May 09, 2003, 03:24 AM: Message edited by: Lisa in London ]</small>

lisa im sorry to hear how bad you feel.were you having the A or your husband.did you try and work on it or did just give up. i was the one having the A.wife cant look at me now and wants me to leave to get help. i want help but i dont like the 1 year seperation or the leaving of the house. i have til mon morning to figure out if im getting a lawyer like her, if im stayin in the house(she says if i do shes putting it up for sale). i was there last night she wasnt. i miss pizza night-last night.keep your chin up.does he want to get back together? how lond since discovery?

Thanks for posting, Lisa. Just know that I know how you feel, and I'm still going through it.

Ex-H moved out 2 1/2 years ago, but at first I didn't go through the loss so much due to the A. I awakened about a year ago, and started going through this really bad--at the end of the A.

Your words ring very true to me. Just last night I so craved seeing my exH do something funny he used to do all the time. He made me laugh a lot, I miss that so much. We did so much together, and with our children, it is so sad to know that's done forever. I dreamed of him again last night, too. I've known exH for 30 years, and all that time together is gone. It's hard not to feel downright self destructive for messing up so badly.

I wish I had some words of wisdom, but just know that you aren't alone. I blame myself too for this self-imposed nightmare. Try not to do this so much though, you and I have both at least seen the mistake we made and tried to make it better. Many BS's here have told both you, Kily, and me that they so would like their WS to come around and try the way we have. I've been asking for a chance for a long time now, and I still haven't given up completely--even though we're divorced. He never even answers emails.

In time there will be less tears, Lisa. I now have a good cry about once-twice a week instead of daily, or several times a day. I think the cliche/song verse is so right... you never know what you've lost until it's gone. This place is a great place to vent/express because unless someone is gone through a divorce, they often don't really understand the pain of the loss. Besides, I don't bring my 'problems' with me wherever I go as it's not healthy to constantly complain and air my sadness.

Thinking of you, Lisa. Things will slowly get better.
H_P

In our early recovery (when I didn't trust H an inch) I grilled him all the time on why he wanted to save our M after his A. I believed he was deeply, madly in love with Maxie-Pad. He said (and I never will forget):

"I imagined the future where you were married to someone else, raising our kids with someone else, going to the movies with someone else, being happy with someone else .... and even the thought of it drives me crazy. I want to be your husband .... not someone else."

It must be awful for both of you to arrive at these thoughts ..... too late.

>sigh<

Pep

<small>[ April 26, 2003, 09:39 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

(((((Lisa)))))

My heart goes out to you today. I feel the same way.

There were so many things that my H and I enjoyed doing together. Skiing, camping, fishing, going to football games, going to movies, driving across the continent in our camper van, etc. It's a way of life that we built up, and planned to continue with kids, and to continue with, and grow old together during.

Like Pepper's H, mine too has said one of the big things that makes it hard for him to leave me is that we were supposed to have kids together, we were supposed to grow old together, and he can't get the images of those dreams out of his head. He can't imagine doing those things with someone else. Oh darn it, now I'm crying again too.

I too hope anyone contemplating having an A reads this. It isn't worth it. You'll lose all the good things about your M, even if it doesn't feel like your M is good right now.

I'd do anything to go back in time and not have an A, and just work at being a better wife, and communicating better with my H.

If I end up divorced and have to find someone new, I have to say, I'll be looking for someone willing to do the things I used to do with my H. That's going to be a tough order to fill.

Thanks for making this post Lisa. It reminds me of all that I've lost, and that maybe I shouldn't give up just yet.

Jen

<small>[ April 26, 2003, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Lisa,

Grieve for the way of life lost, but be excited about the new life ahead...

Believe me, I know what I'm talking about.

Gib

Well, the match was a classic all-time final. Better than many we had watched together over the years. It was exciting and passionate, and I send H a text at the end saying

"That was a classic final, I hope you enjoyed it".

Perhaps I shouldn't have, I'm not sure how I stand in terms of Plan B now, because of course we have to communicate about practicalities. I doubt very much that he will reply but I hope he knows that today I was thinking of him and all those fantastic "ways of life" we shared together - ones that will be hard to replace. In fact, my friend called just after the hooter went - I was sure it would be him <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Gibby - thank you. It's just so very hard now to see into the future - a future that I know H won't be in, but one where I will be happy. It's easy to play the clown, put on a brave face, but in my heart, well it's still so very heavy.

Jen - Oh yes, don't we know, don't we know. If we could patent what we know about being a FWS, surely we would be millionaires <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Jen, don't give up on your dreams, but please I urge you, don't let your H wear you down into the ground. Remember Jen, set your boundaries and stick to them. BTW Jen, did I mention.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep - Maxie-Pad made me laugh, it's as good or better than my Shiney Head <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I'm glad you let your H prove to you that he was trustworthy, because without people like you around on MB, I think there would be something a bit less in the world of hope and belief. Yes, how sad it all is that we're both too late. I don't doubt for one minute that his feelings are akin to mine today. I don't doubt for one minute that he doesn't miss me today as I do him.

H_P you are right. We really do understand each other. Until people find themselves in this position they don't really understand, and I think many of my friends wonder why an earth I wanted to try so hard. Let's face it, we did bad things, but that doesn't make us bad people. Yes, H did some bad things in his time, but is he a bad person - of course not, and it is difficult sometimes to explain that, because my friends want to support me. They hate to see me so sad, so lost, grieving. They all try to say things to make me feel better, get me to look at things in a different way, but I can't get over missing him. You understand too, it is the simple things - the pizza nights, watching the game, a bunch of flowers on Friday....

H_P, I do mainly feel better, stronger, as I know you do, but we both have our regrets. I was wondering today if I called H and said "Listen, if my Mum called you and said I was dead, would you have any regrets?" (Forgive the being morbid thing). I know he would have regrets, but I can't change that anymore than I can change Tony Blair's bad choice in ties <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Remorseful, thanks for stopping by when things are so difficult for you. I have tried to follow your posts, but think you are getting very good advice from people. It doesn't mean that I don't think of you. Take some of that advice though. My story is complex - I am FWS and d-day was July last year (6 month EA/PA). H was working abroad and came home in August. He moved out in December after starting his own EA in November (probably earlier) and it is now a PA. Sadly, he has been adamant from a long time ago that he does not want to work on us, cannot forgive me, and is a very angry man. I started DV proceedings a couple of weeks back.

Remorseful do whatever you can to regain your W's trust. Cut yourself in half if that is what it takes. If you have any doubts, these are perfectly natural, but don't loose out because you weren't quite sure yet. It takes a long time friend believe me....

Well, it's strange isn't it. I'm sure some people valued the gold credit card, the 4-bed detached house, the 2 car home. Me, I valued the gritty NW of England and a game that has existed for more than a century, and everything that went with that.....

Thank you my MB superstars.

Lisa

"So, the moral of the story. Well, some of the things you loose you don't even realise at first how important they are - yes a stupid rugby match can set you on a chain of thoughts which make you realise what a fool you have been."

That's a very succinct way of putting it Lisa... The one 'issue' I struggle with more than anything is when I think about how I took my XW for granted during the 12 years we were together. I was affectionate and all but I never once considered life without her. All that time was so precious and I never realized how much until it was gone!! These events can be great life lessons though right?

Sorry to read about the triggers but never forget that in the end, you made a mistake (as did your H) that you're sorry for. We all do, then we pick up the pieces and move on..all the wiser because of it. Good luck from the sunny and blustery SE US!

<small>[ April 26, 2003, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: litchfield ]</small>

Dear Lisa,

Your post made me shed a few tears as it is such a sad one. In fact it makes me, as a BS, all the more determined to try and be strong, try and find a way to let H show me he can be trusted again. Like you, I value the family things, the Christmases with H's extended family, his parents coming to stay, the biggest decision of Christmas-not where to hold it but who will make the Pork Pie to the special family recipe.

I think, Lisa, that there will always be nostalgic sorrow. But there will be plenty of good times ahead too. And you will have learnt so much about yourself, about relationships-I'm trying to find a small silver lining here,I know it's there.

As a BS I am scared of losing all that too. And it makes me even more determined to do whatever I can. And I'm sure that your H thought of you today-how could he not? I am sure he feels the same sorrow.

I'm glad you posted, I have been wondering if you are ok, such a sad time for all the Britpack it seems.

Deluded

Dear Lisa,

My heart twisted when I read your post - I think that not just WS, but BS can all relate to your feelings here. As a BS, it is very tempting sometimes, to just want to jack it all in with the feeling that "moving on" will be, has got to be, "better" than staying in a marriage which has gone haywire. I don't think anyone, on either side of the fence, really is able to realize what they are losing - it only comes afterwards in moments like these.

Your post made me think twice because my H is a rugby fan. I met him in LA and knew him for four years before we got married - on our flight back to live in the UK, we flew AirNewZealand and he was riveted by the videos they showed of the All Blacks in action - I had never seen that part of him and felt like, wow, you can know someone for years and still learn something new! We had a row on Friday morning about my birthday this year. I stormed off late to work, thinking "I've had it with this!" He had said to me "I'm obviously not good enough for you - go find someone else who can live up to your standards!" and I had been thinking "I might just do that!" You see, even at this stage, we are still struggling - BOTH of us, not just him!

Your post has hammered home for me the sense of loss I would feel, despite my anger and frustration with him.

I do have to say that I think some of the others are right - your WH will have missed you, too, on this day - and also, someone on this forum recently posted that BS are all tempted to think that WS gives to the OP all the love and attention that they are not giving to the BS - while there may be some truth in this, this is not necessarily so. You are assuming that he has slotted Shiney Head into the place you once had in his life - he may try to do so, but he will also find that she doesn't necessarily fit so well. For all you know, she may hate rugby - he may, even as I speak, be trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, as it were. In other words, people are not interchangeable. You say that you used to go with a group of the lads - well, I'm sure that that group will be missing you, too. Also, I have to say, that it's these painful experiences of missing each other, grieving and loss that are sometimes the things that come after the anger, and actually help people come back together again.

This is such a hard time for you and I know there isn't anything I can say that will make it easier to go through. But people do care.

You used to do a lot of cycling - is there any chance that you can take that up again, now that the weather is getting better?

Take care,
LIR

<small>[ April 27, 2003, 03:16 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

as a ws one day waiting to pick my h up from work I realized that I had one shot in this life to make ay life that fairy tale life. I married my HS sweatheart. Then 11 years later I had an A. Now no matter what happens I have this black mark on me. I might be the only one that sees it, but its there and I ruined my happily ever after. Sure we can be happy, but now its happily ever after when you are not remembering your wife had sex with another man, or for me happpily ever after when i am not remembering I was a whore.

Lisa,
That's so sad. And it is exactly as you say. You know, for me too, it's just awfully hard - if I have to take out the carving knife and cut out all which potentially reminds me of WW (and brings back the grief), not sure what will be left. I guess, we have to re-live and re-live these awful feelings again and again, with each time it being a bit less strong.
Nick

Hello Everybody

And thank you for your thoughts. Today I feel much stronger. I made myself get up and go to the gym and then met my friend for lunch. It was good to get out, and I know I will be OK, but sometimes it is hard to articulate the things that you loose, because it doesn't strike you all at once.

Nick, you kept saying last week "it's only money", and in a way you are right. I can manage financially, emotionally I'm lucky I have a strong family and good friends, friends that are always there to pick me up. But sometimes it is that realisation that your whole life you have built no longer exists in the same way.

Euphoria, I have followed your posts, but please do not be so hard on yourself. Like me you made a huge error in judgement, but your H is willing to forgive you and work towards recovery. Embrace this and the second chance you got to prove to him you are worthwhile of his love. Remember, whilst you did a bad thing, you are certainly not a bad person (not a whore at all). Believe me it does get easier with time whereby you can accept it as part of your history and something that you can learn from. I still have moments of doubt and anxiety where I can't believe how I could so easily play Russian Roulette, but mainly, I am stronger, I am better. You will be too.

LIR - you have been such a friend to me. I know how hard things have been for you. You are a strong person, and so many of the practical things you can cope with, but as I say the realisation that your whole way of life could change so radically is quite hard to comprehend. I know Shiney Head probably isn't fitting in so easily, I know he missed me yesterday, but that is little comfort when you also know that there is nothing you can do to change the status quo. Yes, I have started my cycling again, and I think I need to look to new challenges and hobbies too, because some of the old ones are too difficult to deal with right now.

Hi Deluded, thanks for stopping by. I am glad that I have give some strength to both BS and WS alike here. When you are upset and in the middle of another row, it is easy to forget the good times and the things we take for granted - yup that Christmas Pork Pie. It is the simple things that I miss about H. It was funny, but if we ever had an argument it was usually the League that could get us talking again "Did you see X has signed for Y" or "X got a 3 match ban for that tackle". It would break the ice and get us chatting again. You are right to want to try hard to save your M, and I would urge everybody here to do the same. I am only sorry that mine cannot be saved - I know the problems are immense, and I accept that, but it is still sad and painful.

Hi Litchfield - I hope you are well. You know what you say about taking your XW for granted, well H used to say that to me. He took me for granted, thought I'd always cope always be OK, was independent and strong. Well now, I really have to be. You are right too about what we learn and how we put that into practice in our future lives. I know that I won't take people for granted, and I will certainly enjoy the simple pleasures that an R can bring.

With all this sadness, it is sometimes hard to focus on why we are where we are today. I have to remember that my actions counted for a lot, but also that there were big big issues in our M that had gone unaddressed for so long, and that H still won't address to this day. It would be hard for us to recover, but at least this is a reminder to others out there of you who are still trying to save your Ms some of the things you would loose.

Lisa

P.S. Sorry girls that I made you cry, but no tears from this one today <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Good for you Lisa. Those triggers are awful aren't they-some days just have to be endured.
I know that you will be fine.Keep working towards that.
Grey, rainy, blustery here today.Typical I have to go out!

Deluded

Thanks Deluded, wish I could say I had remained cheerful. Is it just me, or is it just so unbearable? I feel awful again today, just really miserable. I hate myself and my life. I was trying to be positive and went to the gym lunchtime, made some investigation into new work leads (nothing yet about the other work, so probably not going to get it), and I just feel down. I have a friend coming round later, but I want to go to bed and pull the duvet over my head. When will this start to become better/easier.

Some days are better, but there are still so many bad ones......

AAAGH <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

That about sums me up today

Lisa

Oh Lisa it must be so hard for you-but you are doing so well you know-very strong and courageous. You are confident you are doing the right thing? So hold on to that thought. These days are to be endured but remember as my darling Mum used to say," this too shall pass."

D.

Thanks Deluded - you must miss your mum so much. I know I would mine, even though she drives me nuts at times <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

A friend asked me recently what I would do if H came back, would I be able to work with him. The answer was no. You see, H will never address some of the issues in our R, particularly about the anger towards me, and I realised not so long ago (actually it came about through finally posting the truth here about the anger and physical nature of our R), that I didn't feel safe with him, secure. LIR said to me "You always seemed to be scared of him coming home", and in a way I was.

Now, that doesn't mean that he is a bad person, anymore than I am for the things I have done in our M. It doesn't mean that I still don't care about him deeply and miss him like crazy. We had many many happy times together.

I truly feel that the DV is the ONLY option that I currently have, and with that is the sadness I feel and continue to go through at varying levels. Many times on these boards here, people say look for consistency in behaviour, don't analyse every individual thing. Well, H has consistently told me he is not interested in addressing past issues, nor go to MC, nor save our M. In some ways, it is still early days for me. H only moved out in December and through into January I was working hard - of course, I didn't realise how involved he already was with Shiney Head by then. Your Mum is right, it will pass.

Lisa

Well, after a week or so of feeling so upset and down about everything, I'm turning the corner again. I can't change the way H is, and I know he doesn't want to come back, irrespective of what I may want. I know DV is brutal, and somewhere I didn't expect to be, but it has to be that way for now. I'm sure there will be more sad days to come, but I need to change me and my attitude.

With this is mind, I have been very proactive the last few days work wise. I have contacted some agencies about interim work, and heaven forbid, have even got an interview next week for a permanent post I applied for - if I get it who knows how I'll be able to spend so much time on MB <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . Permanent work is not really what I want at the moment, but what I do want is to keep my home, and I will do whatever I need to do that. I still haven't heard back about the training job - I can't believe I mis-read it so badly, but I guess there may still be hope there.

I have also signed for two charity bike rides. I am going to Cuba in November and Vietnam next February. I call this the madness of Lisa as I will have to train very very hard and raise nearly £5000, but it is for deaf children, and it will make me get fit again. If I was with H I wouldn't be able to do this, and it's not a reason for me TO DO it (i.e. I certainly wouldn't want to deliberately upset him), but I guess, I'm taking some gambles, some opportunities, and trying to live my life in a different way, a way which sadly doesn't have him in it. Because when you loose a way of life, you have to replace it with something else, something different, something new.

It's hard yards, but as I'm sure SS or JL would say "Time and Patience Lisa", because I will get through, I will come out the other side, and that is something else I must hold on to.

Lisa

Hi Lisa,
I thought I would come around and see how you are doing.
I attended a funeral on Monday and I thought of you as it was ending. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Don't get the wrong idea, I'll explain.
The funeral in question was for a family friend that was 85 years old. I have known him since I was a small child. Sometimes we know both good and bad about people but I couldn't think of any bad about him. I tried, going back in my mind and I could not. I am sure he made mistakes along the way, but he must have corrected them as quickly as he could.

I thought about you - where you are and where you want to be. I posed the question "what will those who know Lisa think of her when her time here is over?" Will someone - perhaps SD's sit and think of you as I thought of this family friend? What will you be known for? How will you be remembered?

As I watch you, and as I see the advice you give others, I believe that others will feel this same way about you. You see, we all make mistakes. I believe we should stay as far away from them as we can, but we all make them. We become the sum of what we do with them. Life is not a big thing, it is thousands of little ones all added up. Isn't it wonderful that even though we make mistakes, we can erase much of their destructive power from our lives by learning from them and becoming better people despite them, or perhaps......even because of them.

Well, after a week or so of feeling so upset and down about everything, I'm turning the corner again. I can't change the way H is, and I know he doesn't want to come back, irrespective of what I may want. I know DV is brutal, and somewhere I didn't expect to be, but it has to be that way for now. I'm sure there will be more sad days to come, but I need to change me and my attitude.

You are changing you and your attitude. I can see it every time you post. I am happy for you, not for where you are now, but for where you will be someday.

It's hard yards, but as I'm sure SS or JL would say "Time and Patience Lisa", because I will get through, I will come out the other side, and that is something else I must hold on to.

I was just quoting JL, so he should get all the credit for that one. Remember when things are dark, that all of us have dark days. It's knowing that, and doing our best anyway that makes us who we are, and into who we will be.

Cheer up, even if it is raining in London right now, you know the sun will shine again, it always does.

As I see you do what has to be done, help others, and change your life for the better, I have to believe you will continue. For some reason, that makes me very happy.
SS

Also, from the way you look, I would say it will be another 66 years before you turn 85, so make the best of it.

<small>[ April 30, 2003, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Dear SS

Firstly, I am sorry for your recent loss. I hope you were able to celebrate your friend's life.

Yes, I must say at first I was a little confused, but your words are always so kind and gentle. You know I spoke to another friend of mine tonight (one I had been putting off speaking to, because his W had an A with his best friend, and they are now married <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ), but he was so kind and generous.

He said "Lisa, you are my friend, we all make mistakes, and yes, these things do happen. But you're my friend and I'll stand by you whatever. H is a good guy, but I've known you a long time, who am I to judge you?" It was so like my other friend who was betrayed by her H, I thought I must be incredibly lucky to have such wonderful friends. I then thought, but perhaps they think that of me. Perhaps they know that the "old" Lisa, the Lisa that had the A, wasn't the real Lisa. She was just someone who foolishly got involved in something that was so alien to her that it was almost like it wasn't her. Because of course, that's what I've always felt. But it was me, and you are right SS, it is what we do with those mistakes, how we learn and how we move forward.

I've learnt a lot and am still learning. I try to be positive, and after I have passed my sad days, I come back strongly. I accept those days as part and parcel of what I have to go through, and I know they will continue to happen. But it's part of the learning experience and the process of me trying to improve and expand myself.

Finally, SS you are very kind in your thoughts of how many years I have to go till I'm 85 - I wish it was that many, but I'll make do with what I've got and live those years to the best of my ability, being the best that I can be, with or without my H, with or without anyone else in my life.

Thank you for thinking of me.

Lisa