All:

I'm going to start this with another apology, because I'm still so angry with myself that I'm quite likely to put a lot of negative emotion into this post still. I'm angry that this is still going on, and I'm angry that I can't initiate another R talk and tell my W how I feel right now. She's sent me several one-liner emails about the workers on the house (she's working at home right now) that I've responded to with one-liners of my own. Pleasant and fun, but not really productive.

About the unconditional/conditional love issue. JL, I'm a scientist (though if asked what's 2+2, I'd say 3 is less than 2+2 is less than 5, whereas your kind of scientist might say "4.0000"), and I think that it's possible to keep the two kinds of "love" understood as distinct things, and apply them both the way they are best applied. It's like a discussion via email I had a couple of years ago with a friend of mine who's become a fundo Christian. He complained that Darwinism doesn't heal the sick, save souls, feed the hungry, only God can do those things, so what good is it?... ...and I countered that those things are not what it's SUPPOSED to do. Darwin developed his theories to explain his observations. That's ALL they're for.

Same thing with the different kinds of love. Different applications. Unconditional love is an absolute, like a scientific principle (science, on the other hand, is a tool, a means of figuring $hit out, it is NOT absolute. As Carl Sagan said "The only sacred truth in science is that there are no sacred truths"). Conditional loves are not absolute either. There's nothing wrong with experimentation. And so far as I can see, the Harley methods are empirically-based, tried and "true" techniques (so "MB principles" is really a misnomer) that work in MOST cases to end As because most As follow a range of predictable game plans and timetables. Unconditional love remains, throughout all this, as an absolute that carries people like me through each day of this garbage I'm slogging through like God does many religious people (for this reason, I believe I'm a very spiritual person, even if I'm not religious). It keeps me level when there's a lot of waves out there. I can see the good in my W even when I'm pi$$ed off at her. And it's what I use to keep from LBing her (to the extent that I'm successful).

Enter the Harleys. Cerri quotes Harley saying "avoid the fallacy of unconditional love." I looked up his and her articles about this, and nowhere do they explain that what they appear to mean is that unconditional love is often misapplied as a means of ending an affair. Instead, we have a set of methods, including plan A and plan B, based on empirically-derived results of Marriage Building and saving that works MOST of the time, that I find to be the confusing point. It's necessarily a cookbook approach. And my W, who is much more knowledgeable about human behavior topics than I am, is very critical, even contemptuous of any of these "contrived" cookbook methods.

I'm going to apologize again, because I'm still ranting based on my emotional state of mind right now.

And HERE, I get all kinds of conflicting advice (and admittedly, I give it as well):
♠Inform the OMW
♠Don't inform the OMW
♠Confront the OM
♠Don't confront the OM
♠Beat the living $h!+ out of the OM (Okay, very few people have recommended this, but I have seen it!).
♠blow the A wide open
♠In blowing the A wide open, tell anybody at W's work, OM's work, my son, other family that might not yet know.
♠In blowing the A wide open, don't tell anybody at W's work, OM's work, my son, other family that might not yet know.
♠Demand NC
♠Don't demand anything
♠Tell WW how I "feel" about her actions.
♠Put up a facade, pretend not to be feeling bad, and let her guess why I'm so darned happy!
♠Demand WW STOP her actions.
♠Don't demand anything.
♠Make ultimatims.
♠Don't make ultimatims.
♠Talk to WW about RM.
♠Pretend RM doesn't exist.

There's a whole lot more, but you get the point. It's frustrating.

Plan B won't work for me. Unless I give up having any say at all about how our historic monument home is restored after the fire a year and a half ago (or not allow my W to have a say), I will have to communicate with her daily for several more months, probably even a year, to put it back together IF we don't end up suing the insurance company. If we DO sue, add a couple or three years to the process. And though it really is nothing more than a building to me (or possibly a memory of a life I thought I once lead), it could be a source of a sufficient settlement for BOTH of us if we choose to split up. So I can't walk away and "pretend" not to hear her when she calls or writes.

I need professional help, I freely admit it. I'm just not sure I won't just get something inadequate like I got from the "measured honesty" guy.

-Qfwfq

Q,

Vent away. It is cool. You are right professional help would sort out the varying suggestions you have gotten from the amateurs here.

With all do respect to your W and her skills, it doesn't appear that she is all that attunded to human behavior or you two wouldn't be in this fix, and she wouldn't have completely and in my opinion willfully misinterpretted your statement to her 12 years ago.

The fact that she rejects "cook book" or "formula" stuff probably has more to do with her status as a WS and an unrepentent one at that.

Q, as for your religious feelings, you and I have talked and even tipped a few. One thing was and is very clear to me, you are a deep and spiritual man. I have never doubted that.

I really think that MM gave you good advice. I also understand that you don't think you can afford to take it. But, can you afford the alternative? That is the real question.

Hang in there Q, this too shall pass.

JL

Pepper:

That sounds like an interesting idea! Hm, though. I have committments all day Friday already, and something coming up "for late in the week" here at work that hasn't been scheduled yet. Saturday I ought to work on the house issues, but might need to get away anyway. In any case, if we do this, I will tell my W what I'm doing and why. I'd love to meet Mr. Pepper!

I don't have your email address, I don't think, and I lost your phone number last summer sometime. You could email me at my address below, and I'll send you my work email/ph number.

2dles,
-Qfwfq

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> SC:

"You need to find yourself, Q. Who you are, what makes you happy, fulfilled, love."

Most definitely. I believe I've made large strides in that area, particularly in the past few months. I think you'd agree. I won't pretend that I don't have a few megaparsecs of growth to do, though. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have. Of course you have! I did not mean you hadn't, just that you should strive to move more in this direction. Take back your power, do not allow your happiness to depend on what another does or does not do...that's the route to eternal unhappiness.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "But you need to find this within YOU. Not in terms of what M does, does not do, thinks, says, means...in YOUR terms.

SHE does not MAKE you feel anything, YOU feel what you feel from inside of you. Fear, love..."

This is all true. And it may be that I have to get away from her in order to simply have the quiet time to realize this. Seriously. I spend most of my time with her doing stuff. Like her keeping busy to keep from thinking. She makes others around her keep busy to keep her from thinking, too. And it keeps me from thinking, except about resentment. ...but that's my mood of the moment speaking.

-Qfwfq
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't necessarily agree you have to be "away from her" in order to do this, although I admit it might make it easier.
It's interesting that you mention this about "keeping busy so as not to think about it". It has seemed to me like that is what D has done for the longerst time!
It's probably a defense mechanism, uncosciously done to avoid having to face what they know is wrong.
All the more reason why you have to find the way to "be OK" without her help or actions...one never knows how long this'll last...and it could be forever...
You hang in there, Q. This is but another dip in the rollercoaster. One more that youu will also surpass.
All my love.

JL:

"You are right professional help would sort out the varying suggestions you have gotten from the amateurs here."

Sure, but with who? And how many more "measured honesty twits" do I have to spend money and waste time on to find someone I can work with? And that doesn't even address whether my W will work with them.

"With all do respect to your W and her skills, it doesn't appear that she is all that attunded to human behavior or you two wouldn't be in this fix, and she wouldn't have completely and in my opinion willfully misinterpretted your statement to her 12 years ago."

You and I both know that. But this is precisely one of those points I couldn't possibly "educate her" about.

"The fact that she rejects "cook book" or "formula" stuff probably has more to do with her status as a WS and an unrepentent one at that."

Indeed.

"Q, as for your religious feelings, you and I have talked and even tipped a few. One thing was and is very clear to me, you are a deep and spiritual man. I have never doubted that."

Thank you.

"I really think that MM gave you good advice. I also understand that you don't think you can afford to take it. But, can you afford the alternative? That is the real question."

And it's a good one. I really don't think I can come up with an answer easily, either.

"Hang in there Q, this too shall pass."

Yeah, right. Like passing a golf-ball size gallstone!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

-Qfwfq

SC:

"It's interesting that you mention this about "keeping busy so as not to think about it". It has seemed to me like that is what D has done for the longerst time!"

yep. And now it's clear she wants to "connect" but maybe doesn't know how?: I've been at work since 8am. I've gotten 4 emails and 2 phone calls from my W so far (but now she's off to teach, so she'll be busy until tonight).

-Qfwfq

~Q~ I sent you an email.

Pep

Pepper:

Oh yeah? Well so do you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-Qfwfq

Mr P and I are going to a Dodger game tonight. This will be my first in a lifetime pro baseball game. Mr. P and I talked about looking forward to eating my 1st Dodger Dog ... Yummmmm This AM, I asked Mr. P to pack my lunch for today. Guess what he put in there .... a hot dog! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Q,

I feel that I am SO not qualified to address any of the problems you are encountering. I am always hesitant to post on your threads because what if I am wrong...and I make you feel even worse! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Yet, I feel the need to post once more.

Is it possible that you have held so tight to the Unconditional Love theory so that you would not have to take any type of action. Using it as a crutch ...so to speak. It allows you to excuse your actions...or lack of actions.

You can still UC love your wife and not be a player in the games that she is playing. Parallel it with the woman that Unconditionally loves the Husband that physically abuses her. She can leave such an unhealthy relationship to save herself and it doesn't mean that she doesn't love him.

What I always feared about the concept of UC Love, was that I would become complacent in my relationships. I really do not think that I am worthy of UC Love. I am not deserving of it simply because of my existence. I do not feel that my life is lacking...I do not feel slighted.
There might be people out there that love me unconditionally ...but for me to know that...and who they are...puts me in a place I do not want to be. I do not want to think that I could stomp all over someone's heart...treat them terribly...and still have them love me. It would be too easy to become complacent and expecting of them. Strange...huh?
The closest that concept could come into play for me would be parents and children. Closest...because I still feel that even children can hate parents...and parents can hate children for things that they have been subjected to.

I guess what I am saying is this....you can continue to UC love your wife while you are taking care of YOU! Do what is best for your own mental health...your own peace of mind. Do not lose yourself in holding so faithful to the UC love concept; unless you think that it is an acceptable price to pay.

One more thought, I think that your W might be 'abusing' the UC Love concept. She can do as she pleases because you will love her unconditionally. She might feel as the man who abuses his wife does. It doesn't matter what he does to her...cause he knows that she will stay and take it...cause she loves him. Many a woman has stayed in an abusive relationship for that very reason. In no way should that be allowed to happen, imho.

I hate to see you beating yourself up over this. You have been tried and true for 15 months now. Do not think that you have failed if you need to get off the merry-go-round.

One last thing...I promise. You mentioned not being able to actively Plan B cause of the restoration of the house; but, couldn't you include that in the Plan B as people do the children. It is something that you both have to nurture and decide together. Why not just include it in the Plan B, as in..contact only in regards to kids and house? It would be worth a try in my opinion.

Sorry for being so long winded...I just see you flogging yourself over in the corner and my heart hurts for you.

committed

<small>[ April 28, 2003, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: committedandlovingit ]</small>

Pepper:

So, do they serve hot dogs at your carnival? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Committed:

I think that pretty much everyone I've talked to about ulove has the same inner feeling about its reality and proper application, as well as its prevalent misuse by most of us.

Your points are well taken. I am certainly "guilty" of not wanting to change the status quo out of fear of the unknown, or a desire not to "hurt back" for what I perceive as an effort to hurt me in all this.

Things do have to come to a head for any of us to really make fundamental changes in our behavior, don't they? I think they have now, in my case. I was talking to SC on the phone a bit ago, and one of the things I said to him that I realized this weekend was that we all know the right answer to the question "Do you want to be right, or do you want to be married? It's "I want to be married." But the point is that, at the moment the A began, our Ms were "over" but we didn't know about it at the time. So, we not only need to not get all wrapped around the need to be right ("Your A was wrong, and your continued contact with RM is wrong still!") and realize that we have to sit back and see if there's anything to rebuild in among those ashes of our former M.

I'm starting to really do that with these recent convos with my W. And I'm not sure there is. I can't convince her, no matter how I try to, that what she's doing re RM is wrong. She's going to have to come to that conclusion on her own, assuming she ever can or will. I can only observe my condition today and recognize that no, I can't keep my marbles with things like this for much longer. I'd be much better off trying something different, making a change, for ME. And if I can do that, without fearing what she may or may not do herself, then maybe, just maybe, she'll find a reason to look at herself and maybe make some changes of her own.

I don't know yet, but I think I may need to figure out a way to either plan B (with contact) or otherwise separate. And soon.

-Qfwfq

Call me when you decide to take a little trip to the carnival. I'll give directions. Who knows? Maybe I'll put you to work in our booth? We have the most fun in our booth. We make "to order" snow cones and cottoncandy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Our booth is fun because we see all the little kids over the 3 days of the carnival. (Yes, there are hot dogs and other fine cuisine) There is also a stage, and live bands. I don't know who exactly is going to be performing this year. There are the student bands, of course, but many of the kids come from musical homes, and we've had famous people perform .... and, it's FREE!!!! Twice we've had Billy Idol, and many times the band Toto .... and others. Some country singers too. We have fireworks Friday and Saturday nite at 10 PM .... and (depending on their schedule) we have stuntmen and women from the film industry bringing in their equipment and we have "flying lessons".... but, if they are too busy, they don't come. Perhaps our son and his friends might want to come??? I will know who the bands are by Thursday.

Pep

PLUS .... I need to talk to you. We could quaff a root beer or 2 and scarf-down a dog .... and butt heads and brainstorm some movement towards a way out of your crucible.

Hey! I work for your HMO, can I charge a co-pay????

hmmmmmmm?

Pepper:

Well, my son and his friends are pretty much glued to their video games and role-playing cards every afternoon and all through the weekends. I doubt they'd come. I probably can tear myself away from work for a few hours sometime Thursday, but I still haven't got a confirmation of when we need to have our little meeting here. But I'll let you know when I know (I'll ask and try to get back to you tomorrow on that).

And now a story:

Crucibles have another meaning (perhaps not all that different) from Schnarch's to geologers. We smelt ores with them! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Some minerals have arsenic in them, and during a crystallography lab test once many many years ago, I was busy melting my sample to figure out what it was. Arsenic smells like garlic, until you've smelled enough of it, and then like hydrogen sulfide gas, you no longer smell it as the concentrations start to approach lethal. We almost had to clear the lab right in the middle of the test, but they opened the windows and that blew it away. And I was able to determine what I had based on my classmates' reactions! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-ol' Qfwfq

Pepper:

I got a second email from you saying you didn't get my reply?

That still true? I tried resending it, but it showed it went the first time. I could call you and give you my work email, if that would be preferable.

-Qfwfq

Um...

I never got an answer to my question: Does anyone here have experience with a long-term A (like 10 years or more) in which the couple rebuilt rather than DV'd? What happened to "usedlongago?"

-Qfwfq

Q,

I'm not sure of my detailed California geography. Are you anywhere near Mammoth Lakes? I may know of a great IC there. CSue

Q,

I don't post to your threads but I do on occasion read them. This one struck me as interesting because it reflects how I've always perceived you. I see you as a man that is constantly spinning his wheels and going absolutely nowhere. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't know of anyone I've read about who's survived a long-term A. Period. Please tell me I'm wrong. I'm running out of steam and reasons for feeling encouraged.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Does anyone here have experience with a long-term A (like 10 years or more) in which the couple rebuilt rather than DV'd? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Q,

I must admit I'm not well versed on all of the MB concepts but I don't see you in a true Plan A at all. Plan A is about negotiating total separation from the OP and I don't see that happening in your situation. It takes two to negotiate.

What I see is her telling you that this man will be a part of her life whether you like it or not and to just get used to it. She seems to be in total control of your situation. I see her throwing you a few crumbs of SF once in a while just to keep you complacent and hopeful that things may change. All the while she is telling you that things will NOT change and not to read anything into it.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am certainly "guilty" of not wanting to change the status quo out of fear of the unknown </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She knows this and imho is playing you for all your worth. She knows you will tolerate her actions because of your UL for her. I think it's absurd to cling onto the concept of UL if it means permitting someone to control your life and happiness. IMHO she has 100% control over yours.

The emotional abuse she is putting you through should be intolerable by any standard.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm still rather angry at myself for being in this position after all this time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Until the time comes that you can confidently stand on your own two feet and brave the consequences of a Plan B with minimal contact she has no incentive to change a thing.

Q, don't get down on yourself, just try to stop spinning your wheels. Good luck to you.

jmho
ba109

edited to add: I truly feel that you are masking your "fear of the unknown" with this concept of unconditional love. Remove the mask and face the fear or you will not move forward.

<small>[ April 29, 2003, 07:23 AM: Message edited by: ba109 ]</small>

Q my brother is very big on the concept of unconditional love.

he tells me we all deserve it at some point in our lives... but we as humans are incapable of giving it for long periods of time. Infact he says it should only be momentary... fleeting moments of it for our own protection.

You see his idea is... if we give unconditional love... we are giving the gift of something without reservation, without condition and positively absolute.. in order for us to do that we have let down all our own boundaries,rid ourselves of all our fears and open ourselves up, wide up.

But we just cant do that for long periods of time because it leaves us vunerable.

and that my friend is where you are at ( according to my brothers beliefs <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )...

You have left yourself wide open with no boundaries...thats not a good thing Q.

You can love your wife, but use your gift of love wisely I guess is what I am trying to say.

Take care

Dino

Q,

You asked "I never got an answer to my question: Does anyone here have experience with a long-term A (like 10 years or more) in which the couple rebuilt rather than DV'd? What happened to "usedlongago?"

-Qfwfq"

I was in a seven year + relationship with my ex. He cheated on me from day one of the dating years. It was not with the same woman but a serial cheater. Our relationship never did survive. I could not handle the ongoing affairs. But than there was verbal and minor physical abuse in the relationship as well.

I know CL delt with long term affairs in her marriage. To be honest I do not think she post here anymore. Lor might know what has become of her. She and her H were working on the issues at hand. The last time I spoke to her on MB she and her H were doing well. Might give you hope. But CL really had a long battle ahead of her in setting boundries and making her H stick to the boundries.

I think unconditional love does not mean being a door mat. Jesus is the key to unconditional love and he never allowed others to manipulate, lie or break God's laws. He stood firm with the religious rulers of the day but he still was able to show love and compation. Maybe you should read Dr. Dobson's book "Tough Love".

I am sorry for your pain and I pray that your marriage will survive but for it to move forward I really think some boundries must be set or your wife will never be willing to change.