Hey 2L/Q,

These downers happen. Just when we don't want them to.....then again when is a right time for them? Never.

Ok, now we need to get you refocused. Remember that M recovery requires both of your to equally share in the fix. However personal recovery requires only the individual.

Stop trying to push for M recovery if your W is not there yet. Work on Mr. Q and keep moving forward.

What kind of other advice are you getting? We all have those shakey moments and none of us liked it. Know that they are temporary and will pass.

Q, you are doing good it just doesn't feel like it. It is not suppose to feel good, it is just suppose to help you heal. Is this making sense?

L.

I don't want to go into details about what set me off last night. Suffice it to say that it is certainly true that we tend to appear to "bash" the WS on here for the simple reason that most of us are the BS in the relationship. That's simple statistics. But the key word is "appear." I have probably said very deroggatory things about my W over the past 15 months at times. But I think you all know that I love my W very much and am just trying to find a way back to our M.

Most people wouldn't know it (except bigsis, that is!), but my W is a very strong-willed, extroverted individual, whereas I come across as a meek sheep much of the time. She's been famous for "dishing it out" and I for "taking it." That's an observation, not a DJ. Believe it or not. My W would rather argue than clam up, which is what I always did before D-day. I still have that tendency, but I'm at least aware of what it is and what effect it has, and so I'm able to hopefully do something positive about it over time.

So, I'll stay. I won't pretend I'm "doing well" right now though. I am still quite sick to my stomach of all this crap I'm dealing with on top of an accelerating pace at work on the near horizon, but I'll try to hold onto myself.

Good news is that SC helped me find the email with my original password, so ol' 2long is back - perhaps with a vengence! (no, I'm not a vengeful person).

Other interesting news is that my W actually called RM an @$$hol3 last night, because he apparently avoided her call yesterday. I almost laughed. Now, I realize that's "RM-bashing" and I'm baiting all my friends here to jump on that bandwagon. But, you're all capable of controlling your own thoughts, as I am of sifting through the advice I get here, so if you want to bash, I won't hold it against him! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Like I said last year sometime, I think it's entirely possible that RM is a nice guy and a decent parent to his sons, but: I don't care if he's the spittin' image of Jesus on the cross! His "role" in our M is completely inappropriate and unwelcome. To me certainly, and to my W someday hopefully.

Surviving infidelity is not easy, as you all know. And yes, I will concede that some of the advice that I hear that may feel hurtful at the time may seem so because it's on the mark. I don't believe that all of it is, or that it's that simple. With so much going on in the past week that is peripherally related to our sitch - both my lovely WW's and mine - it just got particularly hard to sort through what I was hearing and not react negatively.

No apologies, that's just what ol' 2long's sometimes flawed, sometimes insightful character is made of.

-ol' 2long

<small>[ May 06, 2003, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

SC made me realize last night that my "I give up" comment, when I reviewed it after I'd calmed down, is really a subliminal realization that I'm actually letting go better than I had been able to before.

And so it's not as negative as it felt like it was last night.

Maybe now I can properly grieve the loss of our M 12 years ago, and just maybe be prepared to make a new one from the ashes.

-ol' 2long.

<small>[ May 06, 2003, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

Hi Q........er, I mean 2long.
Glad that's settled, people were asking me if Qfwfq was from Iraq. Now I don't have to worry about it any more.

Most people wouldn't know it (except bigsis, that is!), but my W is a very strong-willed, extroverted individual, whereas I come across as a meek sheep much of the time. She's been famous for "dishing it out" and I for "taking it."

I am learning about things like that. What would happen if you smiled or even start laughing when she blows a gasket. ( figure of speech, I don't mean anything negative ) Then if she comments, you can say: "I am glad you still have SOME kind of passion for me."

I tend to think about our conversations and how I can change the status quo. In other words, if it wasn't working for me before, how can I change things. I don't mind shaking things up, even if I have to explain "later" why I did it - after she calms down. What have you got to loose now?
Think about what happens in your conversations and see if you can PUSH SOME OF HER BUTTONS THIS TIME. Not with anger or DJ's but by leaving, or by turning things around on her. I like what Pepper said about that. I know it's hard in the middle of the conversation, that's why I say think about it between times.

So, I'll stay. I won't pretend I'm "doing well" right now though. I am still quite sick to my stomach of all this crap I'm dealing with on top of an accelerating pace at work on the near horizon, but I'll try to hold onto myself.

Keep your direction. See my SIG line, and tell me which one is needed now and why.

it just got particularly hard to sort through what I was hearing and not react negatively.

I sometimes wonder if it would be good for you to leave for a few days until you hash it out with her, but I don't know. Did Spacecase ever say if his slowdown and leaving for a time helped or hurt?

SC?

There does come a time when you have to quit listening and do something. Sometimes I believe it's easier to come and post our feelings and never make decisions and never do the work. (Plan B or D or whatever.) The things we get here make us feel better some days, but the end goal is DO something about our M, not talk about it. I bring this up to ask: What will further waiting do for your M? I think you already thought this through and answered it once. I am just checking.

It's nice to hear that people might still have hope for us. That doesn't change what I believe I have to do either. It just puts a different perspective on the possible outcomes, which I tend to need.
Remember you are WILLING to D if nothing happens, but we don't KNOW what will happen.
Do we?
You say you don't have much hope, and after all, you have spend 15 months since D day working on this as hard as you knew how, and gotten - not much in return.

Why am I bringing this part up?
Keep in mind what you want. Is it D? or is it freedom from the pain and worry. You can get that from D, and you can get it from recovery. Keep up the yardstick and if she starts to measure up, change your plan.

To sum all this up: Do what you have to do, but keep your eyes open. Keep trying stuff, If she gets mad the worst she can do it D you.

SS

<small>[ May 06, 2003, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

SS:

"Glad that's settled, people were asking me if Qfwfq was from Iraq."

No, Qfwfq is from the mind of Italo Calvino!

"What would happen if you smiled or even start laughing when she blows a gasket. ( figure of speech, I don't mean anything negative ) Then if she comments, you can say: "I am glad you still have SOME kind of passion for me." "

That would be cute, wouldn't it? I probably have done that from time to time. The difference now is that my W knows I'm done playing games. I can tell by our interactions the past few days that she does know I love her, even though we argued like Mo' Fo's over the weekend. That realization is sticking with her. But so is the realization that I just might follow through with a DV this time. I can't imagine any other reason she would call RM an AH last night. Before, it seemed nothing he said or did was ever wrong.

"II don't mind shaking things up, even if I have to explain "later" why I did it - after she calms down. What have you got to loose now?"

I don't have any qualms about shaking things up either, provided I don't do anything vindictive. Really, skeptics. I have no desire to be mean to my W. But at this point, I really have nothing to lose by changing things now. I'm already letting go. My coworker? The one who said a couple weeks ago that he planned to DV after 30 yrs? When he told his W that filing was up to her, she said she doesn't want a DV. So, I'm not closing my doors either.

"Think about what happens in your conversations and see if you can PUSH SOME OF HER BUTTONS THIS TIME. Not with anger or DJ's but by leaving, or by turning things around on her."

Again, without DJs or anger. That's important.

"Keep your direction. See my SIG line, and tell me which one is needed now and why."

Actions, pretty much. Because I've tried other stuff that doesn't seem to work. Meaning inaction. Also meaning miscommunication or far2infrequent communication. Or incomplete or insufficient "radical honesty."

"I sometimes wonder if it would be good for you to leave for a few days until you hash it out with her, but I don't know. Did Spacecase ever say if his slowdown and leaving for a time helped or hurt?
SC? "

Mostly I'll let SC speak for himself, but I think he'd say it was good. I've got to work most of the next three days away from the network, so a break of sorts where I HAVE to focus on my work. Looking forward to it.

"Sometimes I believe it's easier to come and post our feelings and never make decisions and never do the work."

But you know as well as I do that this isn't real.

"but the end goal is DO something about our M, not talk about it. I bring this up to ask: What will further waiting do for your M?"

Nothing.

"I think you already thought this through and answered it once. I am just checking."

Yep.

"Remember you are WILLING to D if nothing happens, but we don't KNOW what will happen.
Do we? "

No. And my willingness is what's instigating this change in our R.

"Keep in mind what you want. Is it D? or is it freedom from the pain and worry. You can get that from D, and you can get it from recovery."

Yep. The latter, for sure.

"To sum all this up: Do what you have to do, but keep your eyes open. Keep trying stuff, If she gets mad the worst she can do it D you. "

That's right. Thanks, SS.

-ol' 2long.

I'll chime in, since I've been thinking about this very point SS brings up.

I believe that to a certain extent, especially when one spends the amount of time I spent on MB for a while, it DOES become an endless discussion about what is happening, what we should/could do, what it means, what it doesn't mean, and in the end, as SS pointed out, we actually DO very little.

Back in September/October, if I'm not mistaken, Bramblerose wrote me a post to the effect that I should get my fanny off of here, and go get a life...

At the time, I was hurt by this post, and in effect I did leave MB for a while, more out of anger and hurt than anything else.

But I started doing other things. Working on my own problems, thinking, reading, etc. In effect working on ME rather than discussing what my W wad doing/thinking/saying and what I should do/think/say about it. And this led me down many paths where I found SC. Who I am, what I feel, what I needed to do for myself and with myself, which led to many things; forgiveness, unconditional love, yoga, meditation, and many other things, including a web site.

The net effect was that I did, in fact, let go of the need for my W, the attachment, the clinging, and found the SC that could be on his own, and was happy on his own. And I found the very many, many things that SC needed to work on himself, for himslef and about himself, which pretty much has filled my life up to now.

So to answer your question; yes for me it was important to leave for a while, it brought great changes to me and my life, and it allowed me to move on in many ways, personally and marriage-wise, and it was the start of the road that has led to my being where I am today.

SC:

The more I cogitate about what you just said, and what we've talked about for months now, in light of what "happened" this past weekend (and what didn't "happen" today after my W's latest IC appt), the more I realize that something like you did is exactly what I'm going to have to do. Heck, I knew this, but now, the more I try again to "get a response" or "desire an outcome" (worded that way so it doesn't SOUND like I want to control an outcome... ...but I do <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ).

Because the end result is that I can get even more depressed that we didn't talk this evening and my W is more withdrawn, if I want to that is. But instead, I'm working on my computers and cameras, and letting my W go to bed early. I'm "doing stuff" without worrying about whether she's wondering where I am or what I'm up to.

And so I post. Don't expect much, but if great insight comes down the pike tonight, I'm going to be ready for it!

Back to small steps, at least until I can initiate convos about our R. And I will, because I don't want to let go of the momentum we picked up this past weekend, though it might have felt negative much of the time.

Gonna think about stuff.

-2long
p.s. Got my copy of "The Power of Now" in the mail today. My W was reading the intro when I got myself something to eat and came in.

Also, read cerri's latest post to ALS' thread this afternoon. Very sobering, with parallels to my own sitch. So, makes me not want to "just give up" but also makes near-future planning a bit foggy to me at this point.

-2long

2long...it's true that this board can be a great help...it's also true that at times it can actually be a step backwards. Because it's easy to get stuck in the rut of posting and thinking that somehow if you think everything through thouroughly, you'll find THE answer and everything will just magically fall in to place. Obviously it doesn't happen there. One of the best things I learned from posting, was when I stepped away and thought through some things on my own. Made some decisions without consulting someone first to make sure I was doing the right thing. Thinking things through has its place in the process....action does too. Sometimes breaking away for a while can help you get a better hold of yourself...and that does more for things falling in to place.

"desire an outcome" .....

This is smart thinking! I don't view it as controlling.

Heck, you go to grad school and work your butt off because you "desire an outcome".

What's wrong with that?

When you "desire an outcome" that has to rely on the other person's efforts more than yours ... then it can morph into a demand or controlling behavior.

I think.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>Also, read cerri's latest post to ALS' thread this afternoon. Very sobering, with parallels to my own sitch. So, makes me not want to "just give up" but also makes near-future planning a bit foggy to me at this point.

-2long</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">D may seem like giving up, but I can tell you from personal experience it's a battle that leaves scars like no others. I have shrapnel in places I didn't know existed! If you're expecting to have a little peace and to feel better.... not gonna happen any time soon. The pain you have now? Magify it about a humndred times... minimum.

There is no such thing as a friendly parting. Some are better than others, but with kids and property.... whew!!.... you have no idea until you've been there.

C - done ranting for the moment... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

H4F:

I think you're right. I've felt this when I've dropped off for a bit. It's the right thing to do sometimes.

Pepper:

Interesting viewpoint. I like it because I would otherwise find myself fighting my own strong desire to DO SOMETHING, particularly now when things appear to be falling apart so much.

cerri:

I intend to call you, as soon as I can carve out a spare moment. At the least, I'll email you. Now that the "prospect of DV" is looming, it's even less of a pretty sight than it already wasn't. I don't want to go there, but I don't know what else to do under the "conditions" we outlined to each other on Friday. I need a plan. Any kind of productive plan.

Things are getting worse.

My W had to take our son to a C at Kaiser today (he's depressed and failing a lot of his classes, and he's SMART), and she's supposed to teach this afternoon. She called me at work this morning to tell me she's going to call in and not go to school this afternoon, because she's not doing well right now. With "all this."
She's working on her report, and going to try to get it done as soon as possible. I said I would be glad to help her when I can, in the evenings and on the weekends, if she needs me to. I was as loving and upbeat as I could be.

We're supposed to go to dinner for Mother's Day tonight, because our D and her BF are going away for the weekend and won't be around. I will try to keep things as up as I can, but my W is definitely not in a happy mood. Even more "distance" from her last night, though I made sure I held her during the night and this morning.

I dunno, folks. This is SO salvagable, but I need a plan! I realize I can't force anything, but I do need to do something for our M, even if it's just to be radically honest as carefully as I can for now.

I suspect that she's tried to call RM yesterday and today, and like Monday he didn't answer. If he's trying to end contact himself, I'd appreciate it if he'd be forthright about it, so that my W would know, rather than have to guess.

But I'm speculating again. This hurts, and makes me realize why the "MB plans" work for so many people, because I love my W, and saying so seems like it means nothing to her, and even doing things to demonstrate it to her falls on deaf "ears."

I'm okay, for the most part. Not like a couple nights ago.

-2long

<small>[ May 07, 2003, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

I didn't "get" my husbands love for me until he wasn't around. I didn't see it, I didn't feel it...but that doesn't mean it wasn't there. I saw all his attempts at being loving as short term and small, especially in comparison to his "crimes" (as I saw them). It wasn't until I had to do all the little things he'd done for me, myself...and as I looked around and noticed all the ways my hubby really had fit in to my life when I was alone. I didn't stop being angry until I didn't have to face him every day, and it wasn't until I quit being angry that I realized I still cared.

Today I not only feel the love I have for my husband solidly...I feel the love he has for me as well. I have a more realistic picture of what life with me is like. I had some F**Kd up idea it was some sort of privaledge...now I realize it's more of a challenge than anything <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Hopefully a worthwhile one, however.

You can jump through flaming hoops buck naked with I LOVE MY WIFE tattooed across your rump and your wife still won't get it at this point. Because she doesn't feel it, and she can't see it.

That's what Plan B is about...in my opinion.

Actually, as much as I like your description <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> (bare rump, tattoo and all!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ) Plan B is about protecting you from further pain. It's primary purpose is in cases where there is infidelity, but it has very good applications where there is abuse/control and neglect as well.

I agree that it can have the effect of making the Plan B'd person wake up and realize that they miss you and that you were pretty darn cool to have around, the primary purpose is still to protect your love bank from further trashing.

I think that we feel loved when we love someone. Hmmmm.... that when our needs are being met and we have a positive balance in our love bank then we feel loved.

Conversely, if we are doing a good job of meeting needs and our partner loves us to pieces but doesn't reciprocate then we're not likely to feel very loved. The words are empty because we don't have the emotional connection to fill them out.

C

H4F:

I can see what you're talking about. NONE of my W's complaints about me make any sense at all... ...unless I really am a complete bass turd and am too stupid to see it. I may be dumb, but I'm not stupid. She's not stupid either, but she's not making sense and isn't consistent, either.

And before anybody misinterprets my meaning or intentions, INCLUDING my W if she were ever to read this, that is NOT bashing her. That's bashing her confusion. I wish I could erradicate confusion with a wave of my hand (mine and hers) but I can't.

Plan B? Heck, I hope not.

-2long

But her complaints make sense to her. And if you were in her head instead of yours they would make sense to you too.

You know the saying that goes, "If you were born where they were born and taught what they were taught, you would believe what they believe"? Well, it's sorta the same thing.

People's actions don't make sense to us when we don't have the whole story. When we do, it all makes sense. The tough part is getting there.

Like your sig line BTW, Tori Amos is a Goddess worshipper ya know ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C

Let me rephrase....

That's not what Plan B is about for the BS...but for the WS. It's how it works from that end...if it works at all.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hope4future:
<strong>Let me rephrase....

That's not what Plan B is about for the BS...but for the WS. It's how it works from that end...if it works at all.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, I agree. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Still though... I'm stuck on the visual of the flaming hoop.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I know it....I keep getting the urge to get a marshmallow and a stick...BURN BABY BURN!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Hey there 'ol 2long, you ought to check out TMCM's comparison of me to you on my thread today.

Jen's thread

Hey, how did you choose the name 2long again? Because your wife's A lasted "2long"?

Jen