Took the kids to the zoo yesterday. WH did not come along as he had things to do, fix flat, car shop(& who knows what else?)and he thought the zoo would be whole day affair. He said to stop by his apt. on the way back.
As it turned out the zoo was not a big one and we were done in 1.5 hrs, we picniced and then stopped back at his apt. before heading home.
He said, I would have gone too if I knew you'd be back so soon.
Anyways, we didn't stay long, again he seemed more like the H I knew, no attitude.
He called last night to see if we got home safely and a bit of chit chat. I was surprised to hear from him again.
He'll be up again today, bankruptcy lawyer appt. tomorrow and then??? PLan B????
I will see how this visit goes.
My question is this.
For the first time in 6 mos. WH is acting more "normal" around me. Should I give more time to Plan A to take advantage of this shift in attitude, to put doubt in his mind, OW's mind, as he is visiting, interacting, etc. in a more H frame of mind?
IF in fact the fog is lifting even slightly, wouldn't Plan A have more impact now?
Or am I just looking for excuses to avoid Plan B?
I think I know the answer, but I need a "little" push!

Learnin:

I know exactly how you are feeling, scared about doing PLAN B. However, it's probably the best for you. It seems that your PLAN A has been good and he is responding. But the FOG is still there. It seems like it lifts when there has been NC with OP. However, as soon as the WS talks to her, it's right back. I can always tell. The point is--as long as they continue to have contact with the OP, they are addicted. It's hard to accept that our WSes have been abducted by an alien force but it is true.

My WS did respond to me sexually when I made the moves. But Learnin, it only ended up hurting me worse in the long run. I began yearning for him again after we were together. Be thankful that it didn't happen. I think you would be hurting worse if he responded and then rejected you again.

Hang in there. You are doing great on all your projects.

Learnin...

My gut instinct is this is GREAT news! Your Plan A has worked very well. since your husband is back this week dealing with the finances, keep up the good Plan A. Then it is Plan B!

Why do I say this? Why not stay in Plan A if he is making these small baby steps (and yes...these are tentative steps out of the fog...more on that in a minute)? The reson is this. After this week, he is going to go back to the life he was living. OW will try to get ahold of him, and get you and kids out of his head. But, for awhile, it wont be possible. He will remember being home, with the kids. AND WITH YOU. He will remember that he felt safe there, and that he really did see changes in you (that's why your Plan A has to continue to be great this week). What will probably happen is that he will slowly try to ween himself of his "learnin fix" that he got over the last two weeks. Since this week will be the last week of plausible denial (what I mean by that is he has no more excuses to OW for being around you), he will slowly try to remove that feeling from himself. It will be difficult. But now is a VERY crucial time in what you do.

This all happened with my wife this way. Your WH will go back and start LBing the OW. Why? Because he will miss you and the kids (that is why he keeps calling for no apparent reason this past week...near the end, if you go look at my threads in January, you'll see my wife did the same things...calls asking "how are you doing?", etc.). He will have to sneak around on her to call or be in contact with you. The deception will begin, but this time YOU are the OW. OW will begin to sense something is not right because he will begin acting differently. And this is the MOST important part...SHE WILL BEGIN TO LB YOUR HUSBAND! She will start making demands, disrespectful judgements, etc. Now, what will this do to your husband?

Well, let's see. He misses you and the kids. But he is afraid. He goes back to his new life, only to desire to see and talk to you. At this point he wants to cake eat But OW is having NONE of that. she sense things are not right, and begins to show her "other" side. Now, all your husband remembers of you is the last two weeks and being home. All he sees out of OW is this "other side." And the cycle begins to feed on itself. The more she LBs, the more he misses you. The more he misses you, the more he LBs her. And the more he LBs her, the more she gets angry, and LBs him. And the cycle just repeats itself.

Now, where do you fit in this cycle? YOU DONT!! You started the cycle with your Plan A (which you are finishing this week). Now, it is time to step out of the way, when his last impressions of you are so good, and let them feed on each other.

I am betting that if you do a good finish on your Plan A this week, then send him a Plan B letter (post it on here so everyone can help you get it right), and then show him in Plan B that you might be starting to move on, he WILL panic. And OW will push him back towards you.

In His arms.

<small>[ June 09, 2003, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

Opppps....double post!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ June 09, 2003, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

Learnin, I don't mean to butt in on your thread.

But MORTARMAN , do you think this sort of LBing is going on in my situation between WH and OW. Please note the recent events on my thread. He did make the first call. He still hasn't called about the furniture. I need your help in regards to upcoming events on Wed. and Thurs.

Thanks.

WH showed up at S's game last night, I knew right away "attitude". He avoided me and when I went over & said,"we don't bite over there", he said, "I didn't think you'd want to be seen with a "drug dealer".
So once again he accuses me of supplying OW's H with info that he must be using in their D, so something must've happened again. I was pissed and ended up leaving the game w/D, he was swearing loudly and we weren't that far from people...
I said, I'm gonna go call OW'S H now and see what the hell info I'm being accused of supplying.
Anyways, by the time I got home I was pretty worked up, called OW, left a nasty message, for her to keep her white trash life out of mine, that I didn't need my "husband" showing up at ballgames yelling at me, because of something her lowlife husband does.
Then I called OW's H, told him I was sick of being accused of things that I have no part of, what the hell is this "letter", he says, he has a letter from someone that witnessed WH selling drugs(I doubt) & that WH has to take a drug test & that he's not allowed around their kids & that He himself had to take a drug test yesterday too. So there's obviously a lot of crap going on back & forth and WH is smack in the middle.
So the pressure is definately on, and WH has to be feeling it.
I called my sister, brothers, accused them of writing this "letter" because things keep coming up that only they would know from me and only they would know who to send it to. They of course deny. I'm mad & they're mad, but sister is the "Queen" of letter writing so who knows....
I tell WH that I've alienated my family because I've been put in a position of defending him, and that confuses the hell out of me, because I
don't even know why I do defend him.
Now, here's where it gets interesting. Usually, under these circumstances, me making my rash of phone calls, etc., & WH upset with me, he's usually over the top angry. We had words, me mostly, swearing, etc. He came home from the
game and I was out mowing like a banshee. Told him who I had called and what I had said. I'm crying, throw the phone at him. He's pretty calm! I went to my room early, and he comes up to see if I'm ok.?? I tried to get him to leave, I said I don't want you here with your attitude, but he wouldn't leave..
I told him I wasn't going to that lawyers appt. about bankruptcy today, he could just do what he wants, just keep a roof over our heads a me in a car.
This morning things calmer. I said I want us to get along. He does too.
He's very bummed out, depressed almost, feels bad that S can't even get a car loan(w/WH as co-signer?), which means he can't get back to work
either, he thinks S is depressed(I do too), feels bad that he can't even help him out, we talk about all the chances that I gave S trying to help
him out...WH knows he won't be able to get even a cheap car himself, he has to turn his in this week. Our health insurance will run out as of Aug. 1 and he will have to come up with $320 p/ mos. to keep it. Everything is finally crashing it seems. he's getting desperate. Once again I told him that together, we can climb out of this hole, but apart, it will only stay this way and get worse. I told him I can forgive him the affair but not his splitting up our family over it. He mentioned local jobs coming up for the fall....so he's still inquiring??
I called him from work, told him I will still go to the appt., he was ok, talkative, doesn't want me to feel like bankruptcy is his punishing me. I
said I know, it was inevitable and has been coming for a long time, we should have done it a long time ago, but that it's harder when it's done
under these circumstances and if it's not to give us a new start. I said let's get through this appt. and we'll talk more about us later. He said
ok.
Then I find out my brother called him, I'm sure telling him not to lead me on, don't keep me in limbo,etc. I am really tired of my family getting involved. Just when I start to see some doubt, someone comes along and pushes him the other way.
After the bankruptcy appt., WH was taking off for his home. But we talked a bit first. I asked him if he ever had thoughts of reconsidering his leaving us.
After a few moments he said, right now I say no but that doesn't mean that in a few months I may get struck by lighting and change my mind, but I can't keep you waiting.????????????? WHat the hell does that mean?????? Fence sitting or what???????
So I guess it's time for Plan B. Now or never. I'll work on my letter tonight and tomorrow,post for some quick feedback and then I'll send it.
I've got to. I have no choice. I can't keep letting him work me up like this. The phone calls I make in anger and frustration are major LB"s and I've got to stop. No contact with him will help.

Learnin,

You got it. As happened this week, your anger is increasing...and thus your LBs. As you said, it is time for Plan B.

Your husband is getting hit from all sides now. Financially, your family, his OW's H and family. He is having job problems, insurance is going to run out, and your kids are becoming depressed, no doubt because of the situation that he is forcing all of you into. HE SEES ALL OF THIS! It is probably his first full, clear view out of the fog...and it aint pretty.

The key now is what will he do. He might get scared and run back into the fog to hide again. But you see...your brief Plan A last week has worked. How do I know? Look at your last post. He is trying to stay calm with you, even when you go off. He is talking about the effects of his actions on the kids, on your finances, even on you. But, with him telling you that he cant expect you to hold out, he has shown that he is now on the fence. THIS IS GOOD! Before, he was firmly planted on OW's side of the fence. But, over the last two weeks, your actions, as well as things sprialling down around him, have caused him to seek some comfort and ENs from YOU! You did well. Somewhere inside of him, there is now a flame that believes that it might be better to come home, that things could get to where he wants them.

But you are now in a VERY dangerous period. For the first time, he is showing interest in you and your family. But he is still working on things with the OW (this is called fence sitting or cake eating). Because he is showing interest in you, all of the anger and rage that you have built up and held in over this is dangerously close to spilling out. He is listening now...and because of that, you have a few things you would like him to hear.

BUT NOW IS NOT THE TIME! Any LBs right now will push him back in the fog, and back towards the OW. Each LB will help him forget about that flame, about all of your Plan A actions. He will begin to believe that his life is hell, no matter which way he goes. You will just be one source of pain...so why not stay where he is.

It is time to remove yourself from the situation. Leave him to his consequences. he now knows there is a way out. But that way is now nehind a closed door (but not locked...yet!). He will have to come through that door. For now, he will sit on the otherside of it, trying to make things work. But things are getting worse for him. Trust that, even if you dont see it all the time.

Plan B is not about getting angry or vindictive. Do not be angry or vindictive during this. You must make him understand that you are doing this because you KNOW that the two of you can make it, but only if you still have your love for him. And as long as he continues to pursue this relationship with the OW, then your love will continue to be sapped. That you must protect yourself from him and OW if there is going to be any possibility of reconciliation.

Get your Plan B letter together and post on here so everyone can help you tweek it. Plan B will be rough for you. But it will be excrutiatingly painful for him now! As you said, it is time. At the bankruptsy hearing, have your Plan B letter ready. Go through the hearing and get those things settled. And then present the letter to him. Then fade into the background behind that door I talked about.

And then wait.

In His arms.

Hey guys,
I have a plan B letter drafted but will probably not post.
I'm pretty sure family is following my posts and they feel I am out of control. I think they think that when something triggers an emotional response, that I live my life in that state 24/7. I actually do carry on a pretty normal life despite all of this!! I work, I joke & laugh(often about my experiences), I take care of my home & children as I always have and am especially tuned into what my children may be experiencing. If they only knew that under the circumstances I am very much in control.
They also feel that I am concerned only about myself and that I do not consider my children in any of this.
They do not understand any of what I am going through or what I am trying to do and why and I don't really expect them to. But quite frankly I am tired of trying to explain.
I'm the one who has done the extensive reading and have a better understanding of what WH is doing, going through and putting us through.
They talk to him, he says we're through, and they want me to act now on what he says, "get some self-respect", as they say.
I'm tired of always feeling like I have to defend myself for wanting to rebuild my marriage. And to think that I do not consider my children throughout this, is downright insulting and hurtful.
This has been challenging enough withot the added stress of this aspect. They somehow think they know what is "best" for me & my family.
Knowing that I did everything I possibly could to save & rebuild my marriage whether it works or not, I feel will be best in the long run.
Thankyou all for your support. I feel I should take a posting break for now. I will lurk and learn from other posts. This has been a godsend and I will miss it.
I am stronger everyday and know that whatever the outcome, I will be ok. I have learned alot here about the process of healing and know that I have come a long way from those first weeks and that I will continue to move forward even as I hold on to hope.
Mortarman, I will pay particular attention to your posts and your advice to others. Good luck to you and you wife as you move forward in your recovery.

Learnin:

Please listen to me.

Taking a posting break a this point may be a huge mistake.

That's what I did when I was at your point and I got into a lot of trouble.

My family is like yours,not supportive of Marriage Building.

You will be out there alone and in great danger of being caught in the WEB of your WS and the OW. They will lure you into their world. I'm just warning you. You do not want to go there. We can be here for you.

Please rethink your decision.

Mimi,
I will reconsider.
I had a good friend talk to my brother today, they had quite a lengthy coversation.
She is pretty straight forward and hopefully she was able to set him straight as to where I am coming from, my state of mind, and what I need and don't need as far as support and advice. I'm hoping he will set the rest of my family straight for me. I just can't talk to them when they get like this.
Plan B will be difficult enough for me to adhere to, I know I'm gonna need everyone's support to endure it.
Thanks.

Learnin,

Mimi is right. Do not disappear on us. In fact, you will need support here from those that KNOW what you are trying to do. And when the cracks start to appear, you will need the help of those that have been thru it in order decifer what is going on.

Believe me, if I had not had the posters on here that were helping me, I would have made some HUGE mistakes in Plan B.

Stay the course. Keep your family away for a little while, as they are out for your own good, but have no idea what you are trying to accomplish. You are trying to save your marriage. Anyone in your life that isnt about that, must be kept away as you go thru this trying time. believe me...my brothers were all pushing me to divorce my wife, for me and my kids. But I shut them out while in Plan B. And now they are believers in MB as well!

Stay strong. Trust the Lord. get your Plan B letter together ASAP and post here. You are too close to finishing this. Dont mess up now!

In His arms.

Learnin:

Really, I know EXACTLY how you feel. That's why it's so important to stay here on this Board.

I've realized that I can't really talk with my family. Even my mother is not really there for me even though my father cheated on her and she stayed married to him. That's so bizarre! It's like she wants me to do what she was not able to do. Plus, she remarried at age 65 after my F's death and thinks that's in store for me. YUK!!!!

PLAN B is AWFUL. However, PLAN A was also AWFUL. All of this is AWFUL. It is a living nightmare. Everyone here says we can pull through it one way or the other. We can be here for each other at least.

Please reconsider. I would hate for you to be out there alone. If your WS is like mine, he will try to influence you to be under his spell. We have to struggle to stay out here in the real world as scary as it is.

I haven't read your full story. However, have you tried to ask your medical dr. for an antidepressant? That has been extremely helpful for me in thinking clearer and being less panicky and weepy. I can really tell a difference.

Take Care.

Thanks Mimi & Mortarman,

I just hope that brother did not do any damage with his conversation w/WH. I'm sure things were said, about moving on and not leading me on that may have pushed WH further into Fog and thinking that he has to push forward with D.
I felt I had him right where he should be for going into Plan B. Full of doubts, fresh from a decent visit, bankruptcy moving ahead which will alleviate financial stress...and now who knows??
But I'll go ahead with PB letter. Post soon.

Learnin,

Plan B NOW! Your brother may have unknowingly done you a favor. Why do I say this?

First off, your BROTHER LBed your WH...NOT YOU! So your Plan A is still intact.

Second, no man wants someone else to walk in and tell them to get away from his wife. Men are VERY territorial.

Third, if you now go straight to Plan B, all the things I posted earlier will probably start getting worse for him (LBs by OW, him missing you and the kids, him remembering the last week at home, financial problems, etc), what your brother did will reinforce the fact that you will not take anymore...and that you have people around you pushing you away from him. He WILL panic!

My opinion is go to Plan B ASAP. Let him stew now. Things are getting worse for him. With all the good you did last week, he is now on the fence. As Dr. Harley says, Plan B is for when the WH is deciding between the OW and the BW. I think he is now starting to get reality

Now leave him alone in the darkness of the fog.

In His arms.

How's this for a 1st draft Plan B letter?
Dear H,
This is the most difficult letter I have ever had to write you. I love you so much and want so much for us to be together and to be a family again but I have realized that I cannot continue subjecting myself to the pain, confusion and rejection that I feel whenever I see or talk to you. Your last visit was such a great one, it showed me how wonderful it is to be together as a family. Just to see you outside at the grill, tossing a ball to S, walking through the mall with D swinging from our arms, going to S&#8217;s award ceremony, seeing you relaxing on the sofa, it was all so simple yet wonderful. And for a few minutes I would forget that you are involved with someone else and that you would be leaving us again for her. I can somehow forgive you this affair, but I am finding it more difficult to forgive you for wanting to break up our family over it.
When I am near you I can hardly resist throwing my arms around you and holding you close. When you were here and you put your arms out to me to hold me the night I was upset, it was the most wonderful feeling to be close to you like that again. For those few brief moments I felt safe, loved and cared for again and I wanted it to go on forever. Yet knowing that it might be our last embrace is more than I can bear. I am more than willing to work on putting the pain of the last few months behind us and going forward with rebuilding our marriage. I have tried so hard to show you that. It is what I want more than anything in this world and I know our children want that also.
Together we can overcome anything. Our financial problems, challenges with our children, our relationship issues. The vows that I made to you 19 yrs. ago were made as a commitment to you and our family to see us through these things. No journey is without wrong turns and getting lost at times. But I am not ready to end this journey with you without attempting to find our way once again. I know we can rebuild our marriage.
However to protect myself from further pain and anguish that is a result of your affair, I need to end all further contact with you until you are ready to recommit to our marriage and family. Please respect my wishes. It will not be easy for me, as I love to hear the sound of your voice and to see you interact with the kids, to hear you laugh and to be near you. But I want and need more than that. Friend has generously agreed to act as a contact. If you or I need to discuss finances or arrange for visiting the kids she will relay the information.
When you end your affair and are ready to separate completely from OW, I will be ready to discuss reconciliation. This is not to hurt you in any way but is to save the love I do have for you. I continue to hold you close to my heart, I love you, Wife

<small>[ June 13, 2003, 07:28 AM: Message edited by: learnin ]</small>

It's a good letter but you need to be very, very explicit about what you are doing (Plan B) and what you require from him.

A few (really) minor points,

You know how strongly I feel about us
Don’t tell him what he knows or how he feels.

I wish you well and I will be here when you have ended your affair and are willing to talk about the steps necessary for reconciliation.
Change it to something like, “and are willing to talk about reconciliation.”

If Plan B goes on long enough, you will not want to reconcile, regardless of what he does. Don’t lead him on thinking you will wait forever and then you WILL reconcile as long as he follows certain steps. Just let him know you will be open to discussing reconciliation.

Change the last few paragraphs to something like,

However to protect myself from further pain and anguish that is a result of your affair, I need to end all contact with you, until you are ready to recommit to our marriage and family. I know we can rebuild our marriage. But I need to protect myself from the pain of this affair. Please respect my wishes.

When you end your affair and are ready to separate completely from xx, I will be ready to discuss reconciliation. This is not to hurt you in any way but is to save the love I do have for you.

“Friend” has generously agreed to act as a “go-between”. If you or I need to discuss finances or arrange for visiting the kids she will relay the information.

I continue to hold you close to my heart, I love you, Wife

I love your letter!!!!

It is so hard but we have to do this! We want to know that we did every thing that we could do to save our marriages. I had to learn that I can only control myself and not my WS and the OW. I used to want to literally go where they were and tell them to stop. I wanted to ask them "Don't you know how this is killing me? You have to stop this right now". It's crazy-making. I'm glad to step out of their world. That's a relief.

It really helped me to invite 3 good women friends over to dinner to talk. I spilled the beans to them. They had such empathy and care for me. It really felt wonderful to know that I was loved so much after being so utterly rejected by the person who I thought was by best friend. My friends have been a better support group than my family. Would that work for you?

Mimi,
I do have some great friends, one in particular who has been enormously supportive and thoughtful.
The funny thing is that I didn't realize that I had such good friends before all this happened.
Aside from the incredible pain of this, some good has come out of it.
I'll be sending off my letter today. It should be all he gets for Father's Day. Oh well.

Letter in the mail!!!
Did I read somewhere that it should also be sent to OW? If so, why?

I edited Plan B letter, final draft sent.
He should get it tomorrow.
What if he calls in the meantime?