Learnin:

Arrange not to be available to talk to him. I have Voice Mail on all of my phones. At home, I have Caller ID. Everybody that I want to talk to knows that I'm not answering unless I know whose calling.

My WS is slowly but surely getting the message, pun not intended, that I'm not going to talk to him. I usually pick up at my office but have not being doing so over the past couple of weeks. He sounds somewhat frustrated when leaving his messages.

Hang in There!!!!!

Did I read somewhere that it should also be sent to OW? If so, why?
You send the same letter with a short paragraph to the op and tell them what you are doing. That you want to recnoncile and will give the ws that chance.

This also lets the op know exactly what is going on. The ws usually lies to the op about the marriage (he kicked me out, he/me filed for divorce, he doesn't want me to back, etc.) and this sets the record straight.

HEY , just stopping in to through you some more support .

You have done really good and are doing the right thing for yourself , M and children .

HANG in put your seat belt on and sit tight !!!

YOU CAN DO THIS , YOU ARE STRONG AND YOU ARE WORTH IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WEll like I said , just throughing you some support . LIVE YOUR LIFE , it is so sweet .

Pretty sure that "Family" is lurking here!
Surprise, surprise!
I assumed that possibility all along but still hoped that they would at least give me this outlet to vent and find understanding for what I am going through. I would have hoped that it would at least help "them" to understand.
I hope that through this intrusion they have at least read more than my posts and learned a little something that may enhance their own "perfect" relationships.
Everyone should be lucky enough to get this information before they "really" need it or before it is too late.
You'll all appreciate this comment from a beloved family member! "you can't see the reality of your situation because of your devotion to WH"
Well, thanks for the light bulb moment!!
If I "weren't" emotionally involved then there wouldn't be a problem, no pain, no sadness, gee things would be so easy!! I wouldn't be here!!
Oh, and they somehow think my children need to be "rescued" from me!! That will really help us feel secure as a family unit now won't it. Don't they realize that me & the kids need to be together now more than ever! Dad's left, oldest S has left, let's just continue saying goodbye to our closest loved ones, that'll really help!! They make it sound like 16 yr. old has had to quit school and go to work in the coal mines to support the family, for god's sake!! If he has to mow the grass or babysit, he's taking on too much responsibility!!
We need to carry on as normal a life as possible, which IS what we're doing!
I can't change the reality of our life right now and magically make it all better with Divorce Papers framed on the wall!
Family seems to think that I am curled up in a fetal position 24/7!! That any moments of emotional outbursts, anger, sadness, whatever, must be an indication of my "loss of control", that I surely must be living my life in a perpetual state of anguish!!
"You're out of control"! Yeah, that's why my kids make it to school everyday, clean, fed and with lunch $$ in their pocket. That's how I hold down a job, keep a clean home and take care of the garden & yard, keep up with a busy kid's sports and social schedule, get out for a bit of socializing once in a while, have a laugh or two, sometimes at my own expense, and have people tell me they admire the way I'm handling things.
What's wrong with "Gee, you're doing a good job despite the pain you must be feeling right now!"
Sure I get tired, frustrated, angry and even sad on occasion! Even under the best of circumstances people feel that way!!
Just because I am holding on to the slightest hope that we can rebuild our marriage, if and when WH leaves the Fog and remembers what we had, I must be really be "out of it".
They only want to remember and recognize what they view as the imperfections of our marriage, and whose marriage doesnt' have many.
I remember and cherish the reasons we fell in love, the things we said to each other and revealed to each other, the passion, the many times we completed each others sentences, or found ourselves laughing at the same thing at the same moment, the wild times of our early days together, the "many" years that we were happy, working towards the same goals, sharing the same philosophies, I could go on forever.
Sure I know the things that bugged me, hurt me, frustrated the hell out of me, and the times that I wasn't very saintly myself, but I never imagined my life without my H!! And for a very long time I never doubted his love for me!!
That is why it is hard for me to believe that he doesn't still love me, feel confusion and guilt and loss, or even that he somehow would like to believe that it would be possible for us to move beyond all that has happened and rebuild our life!
I've seen the sadness in his eyes, his guilt behind the anger, heard the doubt in what he says, and it is because I love him that I can see these things. I wouldn't expect anyone else to see that or even to look for that!
Does that mean that he will definately recongnize the depth of the pain he has caused enough to find the courage to admit it, face it, forgive himself for it and fight to regain what he has lost? No, he may not. But he may. He most certainly will not if I do not hold out enough hope and have enough faith for both of us. If I shut the door so tight that it could never be opened again should he ever attempt to return and rebuild, then we all lose. Him, me, our children, our grandchildren....
I would rather put the hard work into rebuilding together, than the hard work to rebuild apart. Divorce is hard work, either way, together or apart there will be recovery. I would rather it be together, but if that is not to be then I will accept that. But it will be me and me alone who will decide when it is time to give up.
Thanks for letting me vent and feel what I'm feeling without judgement and without criticism.
It always makes me feel better.

Learnin:

I have gotten the same reaction from my family. I've decided that certain family members selfishly want you not to change for their own narcissistic reasons. They need for you to maintain the same role in the family that you always had in order to not rock their boat.

Learnin, you and I and other BSes here have been through a MAJOR LIFE TRAUMA, an experience that no one should have to go through. Steve Harley told me that being betrayed by your spouse is worse than the experience of incest in terms of being traumatic. People who have not been through this really do not understand.

I've stopped talking to family members who are not supportive or helpful. My mother even called me tonight (on answering machine) and I did not call her back. She wants me to "get on" with my life and find me "another man". That is crazy for her to say that. She is wanting to invite me to a big party on Sunday for her new husband. Shouldn't she understand that I have loss both the father figures that I usually celebrate. My husband is gone and my father is dead. Her insensitivity amazes me. So you see I understand what you are going through regarding family. Even my children want me to not reconcile with their father.

Had you thought about changing your screen name? I wonder how you could clue US in that it is you?

Take Care. I'll be here for you.

<small>[ June 13, 2003, 11:04 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Mimi,
I've thought of new screen name, but have also wondered how to inform those of you who follow and support. I suppose you could figure it out somehow, but then so would family.
Maybe someone has some suggestions.
The kids are going to a family party tonight without me. I'm just not up for it yet.
Looking forward to a quiet evening alone actually, have a good movie to watch, a soak in a nice hot bath!
But first got to get through this mornings rainy baseball game! Baseball season goes on forever when S makes allstars!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by learnin:
<strong>I've thought of new screen name, but have also wondered how to inform those of you who follow and support!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't worry. those of us who've been around here for awhile, know the familiar names, and can spot a new one a mile away!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Just Venting about well-meaning but interfereing family!!
Last week brother #2, calls and talks to WH just days before I planned to send Plan B letter, following a good visit the week before, where I see "some" doubt in WH and definite recognition of former H!! Then brother calls him and I know is probably pushing him away with, "don't lead her on", "kids need to move on", "time to Divorce", type of talk. I can just imagine and it really ticks me off that they are meddling in what's left of my M.
Whether they agree or not with how I am dealing with this, it IS MY life!
Then I let 16 yr.old take the two younger ones to a family gathering at sisters house. I didn't go because I don't need to be ganged up on.
I had already discussed with Bro #2 and declined his offer to take 16 yr.old S to family's home state to work for the summer. S wasn't interested and he has a job that he likes, friends, etc, and quite frankly I feel it's important that what's left of my family unit stay together for the time being. I need that and I feel they need that. I've wathched my 18 yr.old S and H leave in the past 6 mos. I don't want to say goodbye to another even for a short while just now.
Well, 16 yr old S comes back from that gathering with an offer he can't refuse from Bro. #1. Go to his state to work for him, $2 more p/hr, cell phone, he'll get him a car and make the payments while he is there.(S is saving for a car now.)
S declined at first.
Thanks a lot. This wasn't an issue before, but now, S & are fighting over it. I can't compete with that. I don't want him to go, but now he wants to.
Why do they insist on undermining me and why do they feel that my children need to be "rescued" from me?
They seem to think that any emotions being felt by any of us over this seperation is a bad thing and should be avoided. Yeah it sucks, but it's our reality, we need to feel it, recognize it and then move on to healing! How does avoiding it help?
I am just so tired tonight after a long day, and frustrated & sad over their lack of understanding and the fact that I have had to distance myself from them in order to cope.
It just seems that if they have been lurking here they would have learned something about why I am not yet giving up on WH and our M while still recognizing the real possiblity of it ending.
This is not easy and they are just making it harder by cramming things down my throat.
I have enough guilt without them pointing out things that now have no relevance.
H & I had a very loving and good relationship for many years, and they all seem to be selective in what they remember and want me to remember.
I figure WH recv'd my plan B letter yesterday.
This won't be easy, but I know I can do it.
UUggh! Thanks, I feel better all ready.

It begins.
WH just called, he said "Is S there?", they talked for a few minutes. He wants S to write down his baseball schedule for him. So I guess I need to prepare myself for seeing him at games.
He then talked to D for a minute.
I did not speak to him.

sounds like he might have been testing your resolve to "b" a little bit since he didn't talk that long with the kids.

Learnin:

I have had to distance myself from my family, too. I don't know what it is with them. Look at it this way. This will make us stronger. We will develop a new life without having to depend on our family. I think learning to develop other relationships will be good for me. However, right now I'm enjoying spending time by myself. Mortarman said to look at it like a vacation. My family also tries to influence my children.

Learnin, this is also about us developing confidence in ourselves and establishing BOUNDARIES. I'm reading that book now. We have to establish boundaries with our WS, our family and our children. I'm drawing lines in the sand that can't be crossed. I'm no longer putting up with disrespect. My mother hung up in tears with me the other day but, I'm sorry, I'm no longer a child. She has no right to tell me what to do or expect for me to do what she says.

I told my sons that they can stick with me or stick with them. Whose going to be there for them in the long run? Nobody but me. I would put my foot down with them if I were you.

I sound stronger here than I really am but I am working on it. I think in the long run I will be a better person.

Day 4 of Plan B, so far not too bad, but still can't help wonderin what effect it will have if any. I'm in it for the long haul though!
I'm still stressed over family's lack of understanding and manipulitive behavior.
S & I have argued every day over brothers summer job offer.
I'm sticking to my guns, he's staying here this summer.
Looking forward to camping/hiking trip this weekend w/12 yr.old S & friends in Baxter State Park! It will be good to get away, bringing the the superstrength bug dope for this trip! And lots of ibuprophen for the sore muscles!

<small>[ June 17, 2003, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: learnin ]</small>

Again, good for you on your son. He needs to do whatever YOU want him to do. Its a test. If he's anything like my son, he will try to wear you down until you give in to him.

Plan B your family, too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I read that suggestion on this board somewhere.

No word from WH since he called kids late sun. night (father's day). He must've been feeling sorry for himself, no cards, gifts, phone calls?
The kids didn't even say "Happy Father's Day" when he called, I could've reminded them, but didn't. Too bad.
He asked D if she'd like to go to "Amusement Park", we used to go there every father's day, but haven't the past 2 or 3 yrs. Was he remembering when we did?
I'm going away tomorrow, half expect WH to show up looking for D, knowing she's not coming with me and he had asked weeks ago, where she'd be staying when S & I went on hiking trip. But he never asked to take her so I've made arrangements for her to stay w/friends.
I saw an interesting post that I'd love to send OW, but being in Plan B, not sure if I should.
Lots of questions and thoughts running through my mind. Hard not to wonder what he's thinking. Wonder if he misses anything about his old life??

Learnin:

I hope you have a great time with your son.

I know you've heard it before. I get tired of hearing it too. Here goes! We can't worry about what our Wses are thinking. It's probably foggy and irrational whatever it is. I'm sure of part of them thinks about their old life but they have found away to put it out of their minds when they are involved with the OP.

I know. It's AWFUL but that's the way it is for us RIGHT NOW.

HEY, just wanted to stop by and say have a great time with your S on trip .

THE freash air will be wonderful. JUST have a great time , like the saying goes "LEAVE YOUR WORRIES BEHIND "

YOUR doing great , and he will test you more now and see if you will cave or LB .

HE will call kids all of a sudden just to see if you will grab a qiuk convo with him on the phone , see if your sticking to your N/C , tempting you all the way .

ANY WAY , you got some great people here .

HAVE FUN !!!!!!!!!!!!

Got back from hiking/camping today!
OH MY GOD I am so sore!!
7 hr. round trip hike, 4 hrs. to the top of the mountain!
I made it though!! And in decent time!
But I'll pay for it the next few days!
Had a great time with S, good to participate in something he loves to do!
The weather was great, the bugs not as bad I'd thought, saw several moose, deer wandered right past our tent and lots of rabbits hoppin around the tents!
Great time.
Oh, and about that WH? I did think about him, and what a good time he was missing out on!!
He called tonight while we were at S's playoff game. Babysitter took the call. He hasn't called in a week!!
I need $$$ though, so I may have to call for a quick request for cash unless I can hold out till I send him his mail, and I'll slip in a note request instead.
Talk later.

Learnin:

Glad you enjoyed your trip.

You don't have a legal separation agreement wherein he is legally bound to give you a certain amount of child support/alimony? That's taking a chance with these WSes. That's the first thing Steve Harley told me to do before going into PLAN B. In the fog, they can begin holding out on money to give to the OW. Just a word of warning.

Take Care.

Mimi,
so far WH is paying most household bills, as best he can I suppose, considering he's been laid-off for almost 6 mos.
I'm trying to make do on my paycheck, paying groceries(very little), daycare, gas and incidentals.
I don't always make it to the next paycheck.
I have no money to hire a lawyer.
We just filed bankruptcy.
The financial picture is bleak right now.
But I need $$ and I don't care if WH has to live in his car to give us what we need!!

WH called last night, it's been a week. He asked for 12-yr.old S. Talked to him for a minute. (Didn't ask for D or 16 yr.old?) Said he may come up THurs. take D & S to park/playground.
I need to get message to him, that he needs to make visitation arrangements through me, not the kids, and I need to know exactly what his plans are, especially if he plans on picking D up at day-care.
This Plan B stuff is hard. I'll have my friend call him. I realize I can't talk to him about anything, even the kids or finances, it will break my resolve.
I can't help wondering what is happening with him and OW right now. She recieved my copy of Plan B letter also. What did she think? I know, unanswerable questions!
I do have moments when I think, this is ok, We'll be ok without him. Then the loneliness sinks in...
Still planning on going to his hometown for 4th of july activities(finances permitting). Will see his visiting relatives from CA, and all our friends(mostly from his childhood), MIL, relatives. He will definately be missing this annual trip, wonder how it will make him feel? It was always important to him. But so were we!
It's so hard for me to accept that we don't matter to him anymore. That's what hurts the most.

WH supposedly coming tomorrow to see the kids.
He has only spoken to S about it.
I had my "go-between" friend, call, she left him a message:
-I want to know when he can be expected, so I can notify day-care and S knows when to expect him, and how long he will visit.
-Also, I do not want him in the house. I will tell S of this, but don't want him put in an awkward position if WH insists on going in!
(I don't feel that he should still treat my home as if it is still his! Come & go as he pleases!)
-Also, I need $$.

I wonder if he will call friend back? I'm sure he's not happy about this Plan B stuff, making it too inconvenient for him!

It seems to be working for me though. Less contact, less emotional turbulance! I still miss him terribly!
There is so much I still want to tell him, things I want to do to try to break through the FOG, send pictures, notes, etc. But I know that I've already done all that I could, with no change.
Still so many questions??? Why?Why?Why?
How could a person change soooo much?
How good can an OW be to make WH forget everthing he valued and loved???
This is still so hard for me to accept, even 6 mos. later!
I've seen the pain in his eyes, seen his confusion & doubt, why can't he find the strength to make this right? He once said to me, "I just want to die". I know he was in pain at some point at least! I just fear the longer this goes on the more entrenched in it he will become and he will never see a way out!
He missed his kids so much because he was working out of state and now he has had the last 6 mos. of lay-off that he could have spent with them and he chose not too!! So much catching up he could have done. He only saw 1 of S's baseball games!! He saw more before the A and he was still out of state! He'd drive home just for the game and go back for work the next day! It is just so hard to comprehend!
I am still so scared!
However, my daily life goes on as usual, lots of work, worry, lots of love for and from my children.
I have no choice but to carry on! I suppose if I haven't cracked yet(define cracked!) then I never will?!