Glad to see you cking in T.

I think you are on the right track. Keep it up! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I think he is reaching out to you with that booklet on seperation and parenting.... as strange as that might sound.

In counseling last week, with the help of our 2 christian counselors, wh and I agreed to start making a seperation agreement btwn us, as to what we can both expect.

Like how we treat each other, what we do, rules about kids, money etc. Parameters basically.

Maybe in response to your wh's giving you this info, you could bring up counseling as a way to help the two of you be better parents during this seperation.? I got my wh into counseling with that being part of it, also the idea of exploring how we could make it work, if at all possible, and finding out if we could/couldn't save our Marriage for sure, before divorcing.

I hope he starts to come around. It is hard to pick on someone who will not respond.. but I know how hard it is not to!

Your WH uses the wh handbook T, he just has pride and ego and fog that is lasting longer than some... I think that might be, because he wants the marriage. In fact, I think he very likely wants the marriage- just doesn't know how to admit he is wrong.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

We all know ws and bs made mistakes that led to the A.. but it was ws's choice. We have to let go of all that and just forgive, on both sides to heal.

I am proud of you! You are getting stronger! One day at a time, it gets better! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hugs, Honey

Hello Honey, Thanks for keeping up with me. Hope your day is going well.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think he is reaching out to you with that booklet on seperation and parenting. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Curious to know what you mean by this one...because you make it sound positive and I certainly only see negatives.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Like how we treat each other, what we do, rules about kids, money etc. Parameters basically. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And how does your H react to these parameters? Does he abide by them?

Thanks again.

terr...

will post later....

thinking of you...

ARK <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Ark, as always, I look forward to your post.

Take care.

<<<Believe me, I am truly terrified of divorce, of letting go of family and friends whom I've loved for more than 20 years.>>>

There is one thing worse than getting a divorce, Terri. That will be the day your grown daughter confronts you and asks why you put her through hell by making her watch her mother get physically beaten and emotionally abused for years, never once standing up for herself.

Please -- take responsibility for yourself and your child instead of waiting for your very sick husband to do it. Get off the Internet right now and call someone in your city who can get you out of this Now. Today. Don't wait another minute, or you may find you don't have one.

Terrified, I don't know about the physical abuse, I don't recall you ever stating that it had ever happened. But from your posts to us, your H is a bully and is emotionally abusing you. I think you are holding onto a the thought of a happy family that you are willing to take anything he give you. I disagree with HONEY 100% with her advice to you (sorry, but it's a free country) about him giving you pamphlets/books on "couples seperating with children" as a way of reaching out to you, I think that is utter BS! In my opinion that is another way for him to stick that knife in your heart just a little bit more. For him to blame you, hurt you, torture you, to see you squirm, beg, cry for him to forgive you for it........ RAINING OUTSIDE! He gets his jollies off of hurting you and then he proves his sadisticness (don't know if that is a real word but you get the idea)he tries to have sex with you. I think Lexxy had it correct when she said he is so miserable that he makes it his job to try to make you miserable too and you fall for it each time. You take each dagger to the heart with a SMILE and CLOSED MOUTH. Hell even the police stopped beating RODNEY KING after a few minutes! Give yourself the same break!

T-

I see that some think I am a little off in my thoughts regarding him reaching out to you, well maybe?

But what I saw in it, was that it was about SEPERATION and PARENTING, not DIVORCE .... I know he is not treating you right T. What WS is treating a bs right? When is it not abusive to have sf outside of marriage, or EA's either? Never in my mind.

I think in his own way, he is trying to find a way to get along better with you. Maybe he doesn't know how. Maybe he thinks you might be able to figure it out. Now I doubt he will say he doesn't know how to be 'civil', and I believe he will blame this cold or even angry 'war' on YOU.... Isn't that what WS's do, BLAME bs's... it's in the handbook, right?

I agree with the other posters here, that you have every right to be treated right, and he should not treat you badly.

But what I know is- IF YOU ACT DIFFERENT , SO WILL HE. Now, I do not advocate letting him get away with any abuse whatsoever. In fact I think you should draw some real boundaries- however boundaries can be drawn with kindness. I think you have been doing the best you can with that.

We know he is still attracted to you.

We know he hasn't filed for a D.

I think he is a cake eater. He hasn't even taken his own d to 'his place' , right? He is in fantasy denial.

All I meant was- I think in his own way, he is saying he wants the seperation and the parenting during it to go better.

I think I would look at whatever he gave you and give him a kind response. I will tell him you appreciate his trying to make this difficult time easier with this info. I would suggest that the two of you learn to follow the examples of good parenting while seperated in his info... Give him some praise for trying to make things better....

Granted, he is saying 'you' might find it helpful.... but come on, do any of us really expect him to take responsibility yet? That is down the line.... things need to be softened, so that he can admit his wrongs, safely... he can't take that he is so wrong... right now...

It is very hard for most WS to face what they have done. They are usually guilt ridden, and I think your h is. I think that they must BLAME us, the bs, so they can feel ok. They do start to believe their own lies.

I am not saying I predict your wh will do a 180. BUt I do see a glimmer of hope.

I do think you can take his lemons and make lemonade. Accenuate the Positive!

Did he yell at you when he gave you the info? Was he sarcastic or rude?

Seriously, I would try to find the good in his info package, and maybe let him know about it in a gentle way.. with praise for his good deed in possibly finding some solution for more peaceful parenting.

I would try hard to get him into some christian counseling, I think he might go for that.... b/c of his faith he claims to still have.

I think good christian guidance would help the two of you start to talk with no lb's. No lb's are key T... even if he acts stupid.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I would suggest counseling in order to discuss better parenting for your sweet D....

I can relate to all the posters here being discouraging to you, for the hopes with your wh.
They did the same to me... and there is still hope for me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hugs and Hope, Honey
Good Luck!

terr,

I guess the question is when is the last time you two had a talk grown up to grown up...about lots of things...

Are you and he capable of even having discussions...because regardless of the issue of divorcing/not divorcing etc...you two have huge huge communication problems that need worked out...and you daughter does stand to suffer if it all just coninutual stress and chaos...

Let go of the fear of the truth about him and the OW>....I mean really what is the reality of that relationship being this strong union of solidarity if the only contact is long distance...and she puts up with someone who STILL hasn't made any legal moves....

So Terr you have to come to that place that she and he are the ones losing in this..EVEN if your worst fear comes true...and they end up together....that you have to come to believe in YOU enough to accept that you wouldn't want someone capable of such pain in your life....and that such hurtfull capable people deserve eachother to wallow in their misery...

So you fear divorce because of what losses it brings...but really divorce would bring not a lot of logistical changes...you have already lived with the seperation...so yeah it brings financial issues...and perhaps changes in familial/friend relationship...but that is something you have some say in....

So how much of this fear is that you believe it is a green light for "them"....
How much do look at this as long as "SHE" doesnt win him...I will take him anyway I can have him as long as SHE doesn't get him...

how much do you believe in all his blame?..how convinced does he have you...cause I would take that chain right off from around my neck...
HIS actions define him....period...

So what if the change in you becomes a new attitude...that you begin to get your mind and thoughts around the worst scenario in of all this...
I mean the absolute worst scenario of Dantes Inferno is this whole nightmare....is that....

HE DIVORCES YOU>....and that if that thought of divorce no longer scares the bejeesus out of you...then actions and steps you do now will not scare you either.....

So i am not advocating you filing or anything...
what I am advocating is that you take and do what you need to do..
say what you need to say..
set limits and boundaries you need to set...
ALL done from a place of what is best for YOU and your DAUGHTER...without fearing divorce...

I know this foriegn to you because you have clung so steadfastly to this fear...but begin to imagine it not having any power over you....

who are you without that fear?
how strong are YOU without that fear?
Who is HE to hold that fear over YOUR head and continiously use your own thoughts against YOU
What do you LOSE in letting go of the fear of divorce?
What do you GAIN in letting go of the fear of divorce....

Maybe terr the change you make is giving up on your own fears...they are only serving you to keep you stagnated...

And in letting go of the fear you may find the strength to not just hang up and ignore...but to say...
you know what I don't talk on the phone or have people in my life that say mean things to me...so if you want to talk to me...have the decency in you to be polite...

and I certainly don't allow mean people in MY home...so if you want to be in MY home...then be polite..or hit the road..

all said without the fear that bozzo will run off and file...

Think about it...
no fears....only you finding you...and becoming and being you....married, seperated, single whatever....you without fear of divorce...

ARK...

Hello all and thanks for your replies. Just survived a long weekend where Friday...H calls me twice on my cell phone, on his way from soccer to a stag to ask about a gift for a function we were both invited to on Sunday. My mother was in the car with my D in the backseat(and didn't know why I answered my cell and doesn't understand why he calls so much). Saturday, I find out that H's uncle is delivering grass for some bare spots. I come home from ballet, shoe store and groceries to find H mowing.

Sunday, we take separate cars to a church for godson's first Holy Communion. D is with me on the way to church but wants to go with Dad to the luncheon. Hard day because everyone treats as a couple...and everyone at this function KNOWS the truth about the A. H and I sit at the "couples" table. Is it a farce? Not for me. Don't know what's right anymore. H speaks to me and about me as if he still has those rights...that familiarity that goes with couplehood. Yes, this was bad for me but I had a couple of drinks to feel calmer.

D sits at the kids' table. Has a great time. We go to the family's home afterwards. D wants to go in her father's care again. Oh well...it doesn't bother me but the closeness, the reminders...it's painful. Turns into a 10-hour day-long event where we are "together". He looks good and I hate looking at him. It hurts too much. And I know he's smug.

Come Monday, I took D to another friend's for lunch (she has two young children) followed by a beatiful afternoon at a lakefront kid's park.

H tried to call several times on the cell but I ignored it. Then he calls at home later. D is asleep early. He's upset because he wanted to take D to his soccer game. Oh well...my mother says he's jealous and will try to jab. I don't believe he's jealous.

This morning...H calls. What's the name and address of your lawyer? he says. Oh God, I pause. What do I say. You can send them to the house, I say. Sure, we could have done this amicably, he says.

Then he goes on to say that D was burnt from yesterday. He had just finished talking to her. I'm concerned because she didn't look red this morning when I dropped her off. I was sure I had put on enough sunscreen. Call my mother. My mother confirms that everything is fine. D's skin looks perfect. No redness at all.

Hello PB, Honestly, it's not like what you describe. I appreciate your concern.

Hello Trying, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You take each dagger to the heart with a SMILE and CLOSED MOUTH. /QUOTE]

Tell me how you think I should respond to his behaviour. I'm getting mixed signals. Some say, turn the other cheek, others say, get angry, still others say, practice calm constraint.

Dear Honey, Hope you had a good weekend. Sounds like you did.

[QUOTE]Now I doubt he will say he doesn't know how to be 'civil', and I believe he will blame this cold or even angry 'war' on YOU </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely on target. Blames me ALL the time for anything and everything.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">however boundaries can be drawn with kindness. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm trying but having a tough time because regardless he reacts negatively. Need some help/ideas with this one.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> BUt I do see a glimmer of hope.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps you could help me with this one too...don't see any.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Did he yell at you when he gave you the info? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, he left the info on the ledge near the front hallway and casually made reference to it. Said he got this package for me because he already had one. Very cool, nonchalant...

Am I supposed to engage in conversation about all this and pretend that my stomach isn't lurching?

Honey, my H will not consider Christian counselling. However, I'm not sure whether I should keep trying to just leave it alone.

Dear Ark, I'm alot of work for you, aren't I?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">when is the last time you two had a talk grown up to grown up </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The things that he wants to discuss are D, separation, his things...whatever he initiates as conversation. I guess my yearning for something he doesn't want has stifled the opportunity for communication.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you two have huge huge communication problems that need worked out </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What are you suggesting?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> you have to come to that place that she and he are the ones losing in this </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Somehow, getting to that place is difficult. I was there, then lost it, started to get there again and after Sunday, I lose it again. I can't imagine H bringing someone else into the fold of 20+year friendships taking my place after he jokingly mocked me during a couples' conversation about eating habits with a familiarity that comes only with history.

I need help in getting to that place. I'm trying.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> the absolute worst scenario of Dantes Inferno is this whole nightmare....is that....
HE DIVORCES YOU>. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ark, this scares me more than you will ever believe. Sick, dizzy, crazy with pain...

And as I write this, my H calls me again. Didn't know it was him. Calls about the lawn, the flower beds AFTER his message about the lawyer.

WHY DID I ANSWER?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> begin to imagine it not having any power over you.... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have been scared most of my life. How do I let go of the power of fear...HOW??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> who are you without that fear?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know.

Help me to let go of it. Tell me how I can.

terr,

I some ways you already the live that of which you say you fear most....

three years ago I bet you never could have seen yourself...
managing a home by youself...
taking primary care of your daughter...
not sleeping next to someone...
taking a vacation alone

and yet here you are ..and here you have done all of these things...

so some of what you fear you have faced....

So your fear remains that he brings this OW into your world...and she replaces you...

well yeah that hurts....BUT and there always is a BUT>....

But that's not a clear cut sign of you losing and she winning...

she never will replace you...
she will never have the memories and time and you will not be forgotten....
terr you are you and people who love you will not stop loving you...and extended relationships come and go....

It's not just what you lose it's also what you gain..

You gain freedom to speak your mind without worrying about what he will think...

think about that terr...to speak, yell, scream whisper your peace...to say what you feel outloud....without worrying an iota about him...

you gain freedom to say...
look dear she wore sunscreen...gobs and gobs...if she's burnt...sue the company because their product is defective...

you gain freedom to be with friends and family as YOU...

you are not valued because you are so and so's wife, or mrs whoosiewhatsit, or married to him..

YOU are valued because of you period

i think you start by imagining the possiblities...by imagining yourself alone...and you let the emotions of feeling come...no matter how bad...no matter how sick you feel...and you ride them through....and each time you face them...each time they will hurt you less and less...

YOu let him and her hold so much power over you...because you let him....

i am not advocating you divorce him iam advocating you let go the fear of that...and start making decsions, and statements and boundaries inspite of those fears...

start small...start with the lawn for Gods sake...see how it makes you feel...
hire someone to cut it...send the bill to him...see how it makes you feel....

you can do it...you really really can
living your whole life being afraid doesn't sound very fun...time to say enough!!!!

ark

God Ark, you make me think hard and want to wake up to face the day (although I still fear mail and the phone ringing). Fear...that's what I'm all about.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So your fear remains that he brings this OW into your world...and she replaces you... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">HUGE fear of this...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">she never will replace you... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She has already replaced me in his heart, hasn't she?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> you gain freedom to be with friends and family as YOU... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But there are SO many memories that people hold of him and I when they are with me...SO many. Perhaps it's that I can't let go of them and feel that pressure when I'm with people. They know my pain. They see my pain. He acts the same, they say. As if nothing has changed, they say. Me, alone with D, stands out in our crowd.

I just haven't felt that freedom. I still embarrassed with being alone and without him in many situations. Like I have to justify that I wasn't so bad, you know?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> you are not valued because you are so and so's wife, or mrs whoosiewhatsit, or married to him.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know what's strange...I placed so much value on being his wife! Everything I did...it's my identity.

Ark, he has someone else that has given him confidence to feel good without me and our marriage. He has someone else that has allowed him to feel worth outside of our marriage.

I have yet to start feeling worthy of anything.

God, I can't stand who I am sometimes.'

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> think you start by imagining the possiblities...by imagining yourself alone...and you let the emotions of feeling come...no matter how bad...no matter how sick you feel...and you ride them through....and each time you face them...each time they will hurt you less and less... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have no vision for any of this. Most of the time, all I see is a big black hole but I want so much to be excited about life again...that's who I was. Optimistic, positive-minded, happy, anything was possible...

Help me to get past this.

Thanks.

Hugs.

I have an idea!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

ark^^: I think Terrified should get you an airfare ticket instead of hiring a gardener, and YOU can be the groundskeeper and motivational speaker at the same time!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> (gee... you really are stuck on that lawn, aren't you? LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ).

Myself, I'm still stuck on why he's still allowed in the house!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Terri, did you ever get the legal advice? From my experience with ON law, I think you should see a lawyer about getting "exclusive possession" of the (matrimonial) home and all of its contents. PROTECT YOURSELF.

Karen

Terri....you talked to Steve yet?

I used to take my identity from being someone's wife too.

I learned it was ok to be me and then I learned that if I depend on my husband to give me my identity, I only drove him away from me.

Its just like happiness. It comes from IN you, others can't give it to you. You can share it with others, and they'll love you for it. But no one can fill you up. That my dear, is your job, and you are still waiting around for your husband to come back and make you real again...

ark^^: I think Terrified should get you an airfare ticket instead of hiring a gardener, and YOU can be the groundskeeper and motivational speaker at the same time!!! (gee... you really are stuck on that lawn, aren't you? LOL ).

Ha HA topie,,,perhaps you are right though..if Ya'll had seen my husbands OBSESSION with ridding the yard this spring of dandelions....you would think it was right up their as noble as ending world hunger...
but now I know if he ever really really crosses me...a little dandelion seed will be all it takes...to drive him over the edge <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

But I do believe that it is a powerful move for terri to make....it can have in my opinion much empowerment for her...

the guy bails on family but busts himself to keep up appearances...snow shoveling, grass cutting, planting flowers..while the whole time being rude and mean on a one to one basis with terri...yet neighbors and family touch their hands to their breasts and say what a dear man to be so good to her... even in all of their problems.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

So imagine if terr, in a non LB way takes control of that...

husband since you don't live here anymore..it's really not necessary for you to come cut the grass...I've hired some people to take care of those things....but you could take daughter this weekend..me and (girlfriend) are gonna plant some things.

His heart is so black right now...the ability of this man to be cruel because of his own disdain of his own actions

She has already replaced me in his heart, hasn't she?

yeah right...that's why once a week he comes on to you...
that's why she's already living here having sunday dinners with his mom and dad... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

WRONG WRONG WRONG....he is so stagnated and bitter...in his own world that you worst fears way outweigh the reality....

So YOU have to let go...and the you have to begin with YOU...with changing your mindset...
instead of believing all is charmsville with them...imagine it's patheticville, or LB ville...
and it's certainly deceitville...these are the types of place your husband resides in not blissville....

Like I have to justify that I wasn't so bad, you know?

Terr confront these feelings with those that are close to you...tell you mother in law...tell close friends when you have these feelings...they are so off...tell em look I feel like because my husband found another woman I need to prove to you all that I wasn't bad...listen and believe in them....they care for you...they love you terr...

but terr, read that post on reasons WS gave for their affair...
lets see some I recall...
"my wife was to perfect"\
"you never made homemade spaghetti sauce"...

do you remember that post...his reasons have more to do with him than you...yet you take on the responsibility...and you have to stop...and you stop by deciding to stop...NO MATTER how much it scares it...

It is your PERCEPTION of fear that stops ...no the reality of what could happen....

I think you have to do these mental exercises...I think your brain is stuck in the same wavelength...and you have to actively change the pattern of thoughts...

I once went on a really bad trip...and I just kept saying over and over...Iwanttogohome...like a mantra...funny thing happenend though...when i got home I woke up the next day...and i thought the same things...iwantogohome.I actually mouthed the words.just as I had done on the awful trip......YET I was home...I had programmed myself to say it over and over...and it was a saying that didn't even match my reality...

I learned from that experience...it wierded me out...(in a slight good way)...to realize that my brain was capable of holding on to a thought patterns...and things i wanted...EVEN in a reality different from that pattern....

You keep saying things inside of your head...that aren't true...and you don't know how to think those thoughts differently...that's why they seem alien and foriegn...but each time you change one of those thoughts...it's how you break the cycle

Ark, he has someone else that has given him confidence to feel good without me and our marriage. He has someone else that has allowed him to feel worth outside of our marriage.

that my friend is the perfect example of a thought pattern you cling to..that is not reality...that you have to change...

it's a two year internet relationship...pathetic at best....with little contact...with a stifled man who is to afraid to take responsibility....OW would argue if he REAAAALLLY REAAALLLY wanted her...he would move mountains to be with her...

Stop beating yourself up....

and TOPIE what i want if for terrified to hire some beautiful yard MAN...and fly HIM to me...I have a few dandelions that need attended to....!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

ARK