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<small>[ June 16, 2003, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

repeat

<small>[ June 16, 2003, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

Oh brother, more stuff. Went to a theater tonight; for reasons I won't go into I was pretty sure they wouldn't be there. Guess what. I passed him in a hall -- didn't even meet his eye.

They came a few minutes late (the sort of thing to cheese off my H); sat in the wrong seats. I must say they don't look terribly happy -- but they must be happy sometimes. He keeps making plans to be with her...

Hmmm, tough one AM. I tend to agree that quiet might not be working.

Especially since OW is so weird, so socially unacceptable, I'm wondering if you don't want to emphasize that difference. Ie maybe a little chat about something socially attractive you're doing, have been asked to do... something you're looking forward to. (to illustrate how you are thriving, doing well).

I'd consider setting a boundary, that while HE can have phone contact with son, it's as an individual. Legally, he is still married to you. You might check with your lawyer... but I think setting a boundary would be appropriate, about he can see son, call son-- but HIM, not US. It's about setting a moral example.

And this is probably a little evil, but I'd sure be tempted to enlist a couple friends to sort of point and laugh, when he and OW are bizare in public. Ie, to demonstrate somoe scorn, to mock, to point out how ridiculous they are. It could not be too blatent... but it might put additional pressure on them. Maybe just glares would work. But it can't come from you.

I'd probably not acknowledge her at all, if I saw them in public. Either avoid it if possible, or if not.... I'd greet him by name, and not even look at her.

<small>[ June 16, 2003, 02:03 AM: Message edited by: Squeak ]</small>

Terrible weekend.

I wrote a long post about it - needless detail - and fortunately, lost it somehow.

Anyway, there was a breakin at my old house, probably lost $2K or so of stuff. Then W blew up. Peace returned Saturday. W blew up even more on Sunday - worst blowup in about a year, I think - broken glass all over the kitchen.

W cleaned it up (unusual). Peace returned. W isn't sleeping.

Nobody remembered that it was Fathers' day.

I'm depressed.

I love my wife. I wish that she didn't have to suffer the way she does. I would love to see her happy - even if that meant she was married to OM. Life seems like a torture for her. Why? Nobody should suffer like that. Her Mom qualifies for the worst Mom of the century award - really messed her up.

-AD

<small>[ June 16, 2003, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: AD ]</small>

AD, I am sorry you are having such a tough time. And sorry that you didn't get any recognition on Father's Day. It is clear to me, that you are a good dad-- and I know you know this too. Still, it just plain hurts not to be recognized on days set aside specifically for that purpose. It's like not getting a card on Valentines...

I think it is encouraging that your W cleaned up after her blow up.. it's something different, and it shows her taking some responsibility for her actions.

Chin up AD. Don't let this get the best of you. Yeah, it's tough, yeah, it hurts. But, try to rise above it, and stay focused on doing things that are good and appropriate. Focus at work, then go home, spend time with that precious child... and work your plan. Just for today... then tomorrow you start again.

AD, Is your wife always this strange? It seems like she is very high-maintenance and volatile. Is she always this way, or is it the strain of the affair? Sounds like she could use some IC for her own problems if the former. I'd stop blaming the mom. However bad the mom was, at some point we have to pull up our own socks and take responsibility.

These are HER personal problems, remember -- don't own them. You need to hold your job, etc., and if she's always drifting in at 2 a.m., breaking crockery, etc., she will destroy your ability to carry on if she does leave, anyway. Sounds like you need to draw a line around yourself, even in Plan A, for her to respect you, and for you to protect yourself.

Squeak, thanks for the thoughts. No, it is a bit "evil" -- what's worse, it's likely to be detected by him. We have too many mutual friends. I have to avoid plotting. I think he thinks I'm responsible for whatever social ostracism they may be experiencing -- or rather, it's the reaction to our breakup, and not the reaction to them, personally. He went through this after first divorce, and he's too ready to label me and put me in the same box. He thinks this is the payment he has to make for tossing aside "conventional morality" -- any appeal to morality will be scoffed. But the social ostracism they may be facing is because she's odd, not because people are being moralistic and narrow. He will have to experience the oddness for himself, and eat it. He has to see that he's made his own bed, and my intervention in any way is likely to mitigate the lesson and make him dig his heels in.

More than likely, he is in dig-in-your-heel mode already. He wants to "prove" she's normal, and he can make her normal. I think there's a lot of Pygmalion syndrome in this. Problem is, he thinks HE is normal, and he's not. His own clinical depression, etc., puts a lot of strain on those around him. It will on her, too. This has to play itself out.

So I don't see how I can stop the "have dinner with us" routine without becoming "the enemy" again. They will need an enemy to unite them -- but I no longer play that role since he moved out, at least it's more difficult to blame me for their problems. There are also some indications that OW has been through my mailbox, etc., to retrieve H's mail. This I deeply resent. I don't want OW going through my mail. But short of confrontation, I don't know how to stop this, if it's happening. He would think I'm "overreacting."

We are at plenty of the same social gatherings. He sees me mixing with people, etc. He sees me cheerful, etc. The contrast should be obvious -- but then, he doesn't want to see it, so maybe doesn't.

Again, my preaching won't do anything. But surely there is something less passive I could be doing? I just don't know what.

<small>[ June 16, 2003, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by A.M.Martin:
<strong>AD, Is your wife always this strange?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No. Our first year - especially the first 8 months were always like that. Actually, it was much worse. That's one of the reasons she doesn't want to live in the "old" house - too many bad memories there. She smashed things, threw food, hit, bit, and kicked me. Called me every name in the book - insulted my family etc. etc. But...

That is not the whole picture. Perhaps I shouldn't even mention it, but it does affect us now. W comes from a very complex background. I knew that - although I didn't understand how abusive her Mom was. Before I married her, I knew that she had been suicidal at times - and that she probably could be classified as PTSD(Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder). What I didn't anticipate is that she would turn on me. Before we married, she always treated me with respect, admiration, and affection.

The #1 issue from her perspective - is that her parents (Mom is the boss) "made her" marry me. It took her 6 months to finally put that in words to me. After that, the violence toned down. She grew up extremely repressed and it was only in the marriage that she was free to let out all the old pain and anger - and it was directed at me because it came from her Mom and her Mom "made her" marry me.

Now, if you heard her tell the story, you would be on her side. That's OK. I want people to be on her side. Before we married, there was one very nice older lady at the church, who sensed something wasn't right and asked her point-blank "do you love AD? Do you want to marry him?" Apparently, she said "yes" - because she was afraid to say anything else. I wish she had said no. I wish that very nice lady had helped her face her parents and tell them. But, it didn't happen.

How it came to that is that, yes, she fell in love with me, but, after the engagement, she realized that she didn't want to marry me - but when she tried to go to her Mom for advice, her Mom said "If you don't marry him, I'll never speak to you again." Wow! What a *great* Mom, huh!? She never told me plainly "I will not marry you - just talked about delaying the wedding. I really wanted to marry her and didn't understand what was happening. Probably I believed what I wanted to believe.... I didn't realize that part of her character is a long sequence of enthusiasms for things - which don't last. I was just one of those - or at least should have been one of those, but I held on. I refused to break the engagment on my own initiative. I thought that it would be more gallant to allow her to do so - so that she would not feel rejected. All she had to do was say "I will not marry you." - not "I'm not sure, maybe we should wait..."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> It seems like she is very high-maintenance and volatile. Is she always this way, or is it the strain of the affair?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The "affair" has always been there. She knew OM before we married, althoug she had never met him. He was long-range email/phone guy. She spent hours on the phone with him a month before we married and started back up on that a month after. She has said that it was an addiction - that some days she felt she would just die if she didn't call him. He was in europe, so this was *very* expensive - I figure about $8K in phone bills altogether. Now, he is in town and she rarely talks to him - no longer feels any particular desire to on most days.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Sounds like she could use some IC for her own problems if the former.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course she could, and has at times seen a councelor - especially when she was feeling suicidal, but it's up to her, I can't make her do that - and I don't know that it would help. She refused to take the meds.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> I'd stop blaming the mom. However bad the mom was, at some point we have to pull up our own socks and take responsibility.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She doesn't constantly blame her Mom, and I have to be careful not to either - because she loves her Mom - and hates her at the same time. Her Mom, as she was reminding me yesterday, dragged her through the house by the hair - while screaming that she was going to "tear her head off and throw it to the dogs", sucker-punched her when she walked in the door from school and never said why, constantly called her names, told her she was "dirty", "stupid", "a slut" (though she didn't even know any boys) etc. etc. She was in constant fear of her Mom - but she didn't know that anything was wrong. She believed what her Mom said. She believe that she was bad, that she was no good - that she would never be anything or do anything except bad - that her Mom was a great and wonderful and wise person who had sacrificed her happiness to adopt and raise her. All lies.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
These are HER personal problems, remember -- don't own them.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I disagree. She is my wife. These are her problems. Thus, they are my problems. Can I solve them? No. But I vowed "in sickness as health". It applies to mental illness too.

Hey I really do appreciate you reading and commenting. I feel like I just threw away all of your suggestions - but really I haven't. I'm stumbling along as best I can. It usually isn't this bad. The last 8 months have been mostly OK.

-AD

No problem, A.D., though she really does need IC. But then, so does my H, and he didn't want to go either!

When I say "don't own" her problems, I mean not that you should desert her. But psychologically, you have to stand outside her problems enough so that you can help. If you let them eat you, then you'll both be in the snake pit and neither one of you will be able to get out.

Is there any way we can kick this open to more people? Can we find ways to add more people in who weren't around for the whole 100 days? Some fresh air would be nice!

A.M.M.

Maybe we should just abandon this thread and start a "60 day plan a" thread - as a continuation.

-AD

Might be a good idea -- what do you think, Squeak? There are a whole bunch of voices on the messageboards -- Starfish, Mortarman, Orchid, etc. -- that it would be good to get some input from, and we're somehow not attracting it. Plus more Plan Aers.

... or I could edit the title of the thread to something like "The police watched while we did it". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

-AD

Go for it.

I agree... lets change the name, and get some more folks involved. The more ideas, the better off we'll all be.

My update? H announced intent to talk to someone about a possible job. I first cringed inside (as the person he's talking to is someone we both deemed sort of slimy when we met him 2 years ago)... but later realized that H probably sees this as doing something I'd like.

I have been trying to find a church to go to. I do beleive in God, but have only been to churches for weddings and funerals for the past 30 years. I need some help from God, and figure I'd best go to Him to get it. I don't think H will like this, but cannot think of any reason he could really object.

Last night, H and I spent time talking mostly light convo, and it was OK. One part about our past-- I was actually complimenting him, on something POJAish. He said no, he was only doing it defensively to protect himself from me griping if I did not like it, and that he'd not been "true to himself". (he says that a lot lately)

I told him that putting me and the M as priorities, and making decisions accordingly, did not sound like losing oneself. No more than incorporating your child's needs in your plans. We did not agree, but did not fight either.

He was a little affectionate-- after I sat close to him, he put his arm around me.

Still not able to make any plans for time together, he is clearly playing things by ear. Mostly working, napping. He sets an alarm, but then turns it off and goes back to sleep.

Tomorrow I see MD for antidepressants. I'm hoping that will help me cope with this. I hate the idea of having to tell someone all my stuff, and don't want to cry in front of anyone. But, I guess that's something I'll have to risk.

Ran into H at post office. Waved and smiled from across a parking lot. Some Plan A, huh? Am I a chicken or what? He's taking a "vacation" of sorts with OW for the next few days.

A.M.M.,

Sometimes I take for granted the access I currently have with my W. I remember when she moved out - how desparately I often wanted to just be able to spend time with her. Now, I've got that. She doesn't want a D. She doesn't want a real marriage with me either.

And there you are... having to put your whole life and soul into a wave across the parking lot.

It's a reminder to me, to be grateful for what I've got.

I think you are doing the right things. It takes time - even when it works.

My W had her own appartment for 18 months - and we eventually moved back in together into a new house. But, her A was much less physically involved that your H's is. Basically, it's a "soulmate" thing - started long distance and stayed that way for most of it's history - with one PA encounter (as far as I know) - which was confessed to me the next day.

I think you are doing a great job of detaching and dealing with it. I don't think I could do that.

-AD

A.M.M,

Thinking about it some more.... what would happen if you didn't smile and wave - just looked at him - so he knew that you saw him, and went on your way without greeting him - without any reaction - as if you were seeing a bird fly by or some other ordinary phenominon? (sp?)

-AD

Squeak,

OK, I changed the title of the thread.

But, we've got to come through with some jucy stuff - or at least seem to be earnestly wrestling with issues in our marriages.

-AD

Squeak,

Any word on the Anti-D's?

Was your H just blowing smoke or is he having a real job interview?

About church...
Before we married, W always went to church with me. Now she refuses, and I don't go either - since it is often quite awkward. After we married, she stopped going to church. People at church asked "Is she at college". Apparently somebody developed a theory that W was still living on campus somewhere and we would be together in the summer. That was the only reason they could imagine that she would not come to church with me. Eventually, she started going sometimes - when her niece lived with us for 4 months - and again when she was pregnant. But, since our child was born (now 2 1/2) W has been to church about 5 or 6 times.

I'm glad you are looking into that. It is and was very important to me and helpful to me.

My old friend - that I've known since I was 16 (almost 30 years now!) used to not go to church at all - but in the past couple of years he has become very active in a church, prays daily, goes to bible studies, maintains his church's website. It seems strange that his W, who is not a believe at all, will go to church with him just to keep him company and keep an open mind. My W, who is a believer will not go - because she resents the people at the church.

I've got to start going by myself. I think she will come sometimes if I do.

-AD

<small>[ June 19, 2003, 08:52 AM: Message edited by: AD ]</small>