The following is a quote from zorweb made on the thread about the Knight In Shining Armour syndrome (which my H surely suffers from BTW):

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My counselor told me that when a person has an affair, the BS and the OP become as two sides of one person.. it takes the two of them to meed the WS’s needs. Isn’t that what MB is saying too. That the WS’s gets some needs met by the BS and some met by the OP. One of the reasons it’s so hard for a WS to give up the affair is that then they give up half of what they want. It’s obviously a situation that is unfair to all but the WS.. who has at two people rushing around to win them over. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And my H has 3 people rushing around trying to win him over.

I saw my H last night. This quote hit home for me. His female friends are meeting all of his emotional needs except SF. That's why he's so content to remain in limbo, and not decide to divorce me or reconcile with me. The only thing he seems to need me for anymore is SF.

What is frustrating me this morning is I feel like I know what we both need to do to make this a better marriage, a happy marriage again. But he's so deep in the fog of thinking he has every right to have female friends so long as he never gets physical with them, I can't imagine him ever understanding why I'd want him to give up those friendships if we did reconcile. He views them as the kind people who actually appreciate him (hence my remark about him suffering from KISA).

With some MC and a genuine desire to work wholeheartedly on this marriage, and treat each other well again, I could see this M working.

With him in this fog of his, I can only imagine him continuing to harbour resentment towards me, keeping his female friends, and trying to prolong any decision about staying married or getting divorced.

I thought this was an important realization. What to do about it I do not know yet.

Jen

<small>[ May 07, 2003, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

I'm sorry but I just had to take the sock out of my mouth and say that unless you totally go NC via plan B, he will still remain a cake eater and enjoy some of his EN's met by you. You may beleive that SF is the only EN that you have met for him, but from your recent posts, I would say that conversation is another EN that you are meeting. So until you decide to stop being a female version of 2Long, he will still have the best of both worlds.

I agree with TMCM. This is no surprise. You're dealing with a WS, not just a BS. These things aren't new revelations, Jen...I'm not sure why you're surprised by them? All the wishing in the world won't change the situation...only a change in you will. Good luck.

Jen,

I have kept off from here for some time, but have known your story since the first time you came here and will post from time to time.

You don’t seem like you want the advice of a Plan B so it’s tough for me to really get too deep in this. TMCM is right. Your husband is a cake eater, plain and simple. He manipulates the situation to his liking and will “use” you how he sees fit. You have said it yourself that when you backed off he started to chase you. Now with the “who files first” date looming, you continue to see what you can do for him. Why? How you can chase him. What you can do for him. He looks at you and you melt. When he does, what exactly does he want from you?

What happens if the other two females actually respond to SF for him? What use will he have for you? Sometimes you have to rely on faith and step out and know he will come back to you. Until then, he is going to use you until he no longer sees a need for you. He gets everything else he needs somewhere else.

Read “Tough Love” by Dr. Dobson. He describes that enough is enough and that you will need to eventually let him chase you and want you. Pretty close to a Plan B. How exactly are you protecting your love for him? I would love to see you get back together with him! I think all of us would. I guess I don’t put up with the game he plays. Again, this is my own honest opinion. Keep your head held high and I wish you the best of luck!

Jen

I know exactly what you mean. My husband is still living with me has had numerous friends "girlfriends" one long term PA that i know of. All ongoing. And yet i continue to be his door mat. I even wonder what kind of insecurities make me so willing to live like this. I know i need to move on but lack the strength to start. I have always thought of myself as a strong person. Apparently im not. I want to change but i don't want to hurt anyones feelings in the process, my wh, my two beautiful children, ect. It is so wrong.
somedaysara@yahoo.com

Okay, imagine I actually decided to suck it up and write a plan B letter and give it to my H. Do I mention in the letter that I feel he's having certain emotional needs met by "THEM" and other particular ones met by me, and so I want him to choose?

How often do people give copies of the plan B letter to the OP or OPs? I wonder if they'd both still want to be his friends if they knew it was a "THEM" or "ME" situation.

I guess a huge reason why I've never had the nerve to go to plan B is that I really sincerely doubt my H would give up both of his female friends. For the longest while, I thought I'd compromise and just tell him to ditch b@*ch number one ("C"), but now quite frankly, I'd like to see them both evaporate on a hot sunny day.

Just recently, the other woman, "A", nominated him for a bloody teaching award; now how's that for meeting his needs for admiration and appreciation in a manner that I can't because I'm related to him and wouldn't be allowed to nominate him????) Funny thing is he would most definitely say to himself, "Oh what a crazy jealous psycho b@#ch. How can she get mad at A for being nice like that?" She handpainted him some wine glasses for his birthday. If I ever moved home the first thing I'd do is smash them on the street. She really was once my friend, but now I can't stand the fact that she thinks it is fine to be my H's best friend while I barely get to talk to him. I tell you if she were to phone me again and ask me if I want to get together, I'll be telling her our friendship is over, that she is my competition, plain and simple. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> Sorry, had to vent.

My bet is he'd rather divorce me and maintain his friendship with at least one of them, and lose SF and convo with me. But I guess I ought to demand that he choose, instead of silently praying he will choose. (In other words I'm seriously considering resurrecting that last Plan B letter I had going, and updating it some.)

Jen

DAWG, my EARS are BURNING!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Well, Jen? If I were in your shoes... ...first of all, my feet would hurt. ...but if I didn't have kids and a coupla houses and... I'd plan B in a minute in your situation. I've said it before. I'll say it again (and it's "truer" now). You are a WAY FWS. Your H is a WS.

Having said that, I still have no clue how I'd do a plan B. But if I were you, it'd be a lead pipe cinch (look it up. I figured out what that meant when we started redoing the plumbing in our old house).

-2damnedlong

Jen,
IMO I would not tell him you are meeting some of his emotional needs and they are meeting others. .That would probably sound weird to him at this point because I don't think he gets it. .In my plan B letter, I told my WH this:
"You seemed confused when I said reconciliation is at a zero chance when a 3rd party is involved. When we got married, we became 1. We did not say, OK we are 1 but we'll take this OW into our bedroom too. That sounds ludicrous doesn't it? This is not what marriage commitment is. You made a covenant, a solemn vow, to me, before God, family and friends, that was not to be broken. For this reason, I cannot see you or talk to you until you end your relationship with the other woman once and for all. " I also put at the bottom "Please don't contact me with a 'let's try' or 'we'll see' attitude, but only with an "I will" attitude. If you choose to be with the OW that is a decision I will accept and move forward from. I also have to have my own self- respect, and see how special I am through God's eyes, which is why I can't have anything less than this."
This way I wasn't "demanding" anything, I was just telling him my boundaries. I did tell him I was sorry i didn't meet his emotional needs at times- however, as a side note, I didn't put this in, but I do think that NO ONE can meet anyone's needs all the time- and to think so is ludicrous. The only one who meets our needs completely is our Creator. God knows us and loves us completely, and to expect that from another person is going to disappoint us every time--

Jen, if you don't attempt to do a plan B, then you may as well end your suffering and file for divorce, for that is where your marriage may eventually end up. The more time passes and things remain the same, the less and less your H (and you) will want to reconcile.

Hey if our number one plan B phobic member, 2Long agrees that he would go into one if he were in your shoes (hmmm I wonder how he would look in heels <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ) then you know that this is something to chew on.

Once more TMCM takes his sock out of his mouth or is it really puts his foot in his mouth? You decide. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<small>[ May 07, 2003, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Hi Jen!
Just wanted to comment on a couple of points here.

Have you started writing a Plan B letter yet? It takes a while to put your thoughts together, re-read, re-write, etc., until it's where you want it to be. Some people work on it for days, or weeks or months, before actually implementing. I strongly suggest you write one. You can post it here and let us critique it. If anything, it REALLY helps you formulate your thoughts, and develop more strength and clarity in yourself.

As far as him choosing "them" or "you", he may not make a choice right away. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> But YOU are actually making a choice FOR him. Essentially, you will be forcing him to choose them, right? and he can then (hopefully) see that he is not happy with them, and without you. For my WH, it wasn't until after the D, after all communication with me had stopped completely, for he and OW to have to rely solely on each other for all EN's. Reality set in, and their relationship couldn't survive.

Lots of MB'ers send a copy of the PLan B letter to the OP. That way, they can see for themselves the reasons why you are going to NC. Otherwise, the OP may assume, or the WS may claim, that you are "kicking him out", or "just being a b*tch", or otherwise wanting to end the marriage.

Sorry I'm so short and to the point.... hope it makes some sense... Good luck!!!!

Faith1 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hey Jen, do you have a copy of 'Surviving An Affair'? I ask because there is a sample copy of the plan B letter that Jon wrotte to his WW Sue that you could copy and adapt it to your particular situation.

<small>[ May 07, 2003, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

2long, TMCM, yes it is VERY persuasive to hear that 2long says he'd do plan B in a minute if he didn't have kids or a house in the midst of reno's to worry about.

I do have a draft Plan B letter that I worked on for a couple of weeks back in March or early April. I also do have a copy of SAA. I'll have to take a peek in there at that sample letter.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As far as him choosing "them" or "you", he may not make a choice right away. But YOU are actually making a choice FOR him. Essentially, you will be forcing him to choose them, right? and he can then (hopefully) see that he is not happy with them, and without you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for pointing that out Faith. This reminds me...he had them only for 3 months in the fall. Eventually he came to me. He just wasn't willing to leave them behind. Maybe there is hope for him to come to me if I go to plan B.

All in all, I don't want to be one of his 3 "b**ches". I know I can't live like that, so I need to suck it up and try plan B.

What I wonder is how many spouses try to ignore the plan B request for NC and start harassing the spouse who wrote the letter. But if it happens, I'll just keep a journal of it and contact the authorities if need be I suppose.

Jen,

I second what many others here have said, espec. coffeeman's words:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Jen, if you don't attempt to do a plan B, then you may as well end your suffering and file for divorce, for that is where your marriage may eventually end up. The more time passes and things remain the same, the less and less your H (and you) will want to reconcile </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know I said this in a previous thread to you, and I hate to mention former OM, but your husband reminds me of him. He sounds so like he loves to manipulate and dominate you. He also seems to need way too much female attention, just like former OM. Perhaps that negative feeling in my mind about OM and hence your H is tainting how I read your posts.

I know you don't have children yet, so it's hard for me to see why a woman who's as intellingent as you doesn't just do the plan B letter and move on a bit. You deserve a man who can give you all his attention, not just bits and pieces . You are more than a Booty call, right?

If you back off, and send him the plan B letter--then you'll see if he really wants you , or not. I know that I'm probably one to talk--I'm still 'waiting' for exhusband to make some sort of move toward reconciliation, but he doesn't play games with me, etc. If he did, I couldn't handle it at all. I'm more in a holding pattern, to see if things can be worked out down the road. If not, well, so be it. We're already divorced. At least I'll know I've tried by waiting for him.

If someone doesn't want me completely, then forget it! You did have an A, but it sounds like your husband has been having EA's for years, correct? Who needs a man like that? If he's willing to work on the marriage with you, fine. Otherwise, please send the letter and be free of this. You seem far too intelligent to carry on this way!

Forgive me if I'm too blunt with you here. I'm just calling it as I see it, and I just thought bluntness would be appreciated. If I've hurt you, I'm sorry.

Take care,
H_P

Hi JB!

Here's a link to an old thread with Plan B letters:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=019428

Although, if you ask me, while you feel you have to
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...decided to suck it up and write a plan B letter and give it to my H...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're not yet ready for Plan B. When you feel you are Plan Bing FOR YOU (and NOT to get a response from your H), then you'll be ready.

<small>[ May 07, 2003, 08:55 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

h_p: You were not too blunt. You were to the point and I appreciate it. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You deserve a man who can give you all his attention, not just bits and pieces . You are more than a Booty call, right? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YES, INDEED, RIGHT!

Although, I have to confess....last night it was more like I was using him for a little physical affection, not so much for emotional comfort. I went over there thinking, "Cool, I get some pleasure, and I get to be cuddled all night long." I didn't go over there thinking anything like, "Oh I hope he tells me he cares about me tonight and that he wants to reconcile." I had VERY low expectations I guess, so I wasn't very disappointed.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You're not yet ready for Plan B. When you feel you are Plan Bing FOR YOU (and NOT to get a response from your H), then you'll be ready. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SC! Please explain further what you mean by this. How exactly do I know when I feel I am plan Bing for ME?

(I haven't been around here tonight for a few hours because some evil duo broke into my mail box and stole my credit card last week and have been going to town with it. They got apprehended tonight and I had to go down to the cop shop to file a report. They were even using the card they stole to apply for OTHER credit cards (dept. store cards)! I hope they don't still have others that the police don't know about...living in an apartment sucks!)

Jen

<small>[ May 08, 2003, 12:32 AM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">(I haven't been around here tonight for a few hours because some evil duo broke into my mail box and stole my credit card last week and have been going to town with it. They got apprehended tonight and I had to go down to the cop shop to file a report. They were even using the card they stole to apply for OTHER credit cards (dept. store cards)! I hope they don't still have others that the police don't know about...living in an apartment sucks!)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yikes! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Send copies of the police report to all the credit reporting agencies ASAP. You don't need to have your credit destroyed, not to mention becoming a victim of identity theft.

Credit reporting agencies? What do I look under in the phone book to contact them?

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Your in Canada and I'm the U.S. so I don't know if the same credit reporting agencies that operate in the U.S. also operate Canada, but do try to look for them in the phone book, the internet, etc. Don't delay, do it ASAP before you start getting nasty letters from creditors demanding that you pay up for things these two sleazebags may have charged with your credit cards.

JB; what I mean is that we are often tempted to "do Plan B" for the "effect" it might have on the other spouse, regardless of whether we feel we need it for ourselves, which is what Plan B is about.

Plan B, if you follow Harley, is designed to "protect the remaining deposits in your love-bank, while your spouse is undecided about actively working on the M, or undecided and still having a R with the OP" (of course in your case it's the other way around, but still applicable.)

The point is Plan B is FOR YOU. Not for getting your spouse to "do something". So when you say you're thinking of "sucking it up" and doing Plan B, it sounds to me like you don't want to, and thus are not yet ready for it.

I agree that you are probably in a situation where Plan B or DV are the most likely remaining options, but you need to be truly prepared mentally for Plan B or DV...you cannot do them against your will, against your true feelings, without hurting yourself quite a bit. You have to WANT to do it; break all contact, move on, get on with your life, not be willing to allow the remaining love to drain, not being willing to allow the continued disrespect. But most of all you have to be ready, willing, and desirous of making a hard separation from the other spouse.

With much love, and wishing you strength, clarity and resolve...for YOU!

About the credit cards: call the banks to cancel the cards, and ask them who else to report this to, including the credit reposting agencies. They know.