Mimi,
Hang in there girl,you are doing fine.
Keeping busy is about the best thing you can do, try to keep your mind occupied with things other than WH. I try but it is hard!!
I admire the fact that you were able to sell the house, I am stuck on that one myself...I love our house that we built so much of ourselves, a lot of work went into it, and now I'm taking care of it myself as best I can. WH doesn't want me to sell, I wonder why, he doesn't seem to care about it enough to live in it. Although we do agree that it would be harder on the kids to move at this time in their lives and with everything else going on.
I know it's hard waiting, especially if you are as close as it appears, every day must seem an eternity!
Just hang in there, you seem to be doing well. Hopefully a new beginning and recovery is right around the corner. In the meantime, live your life...

Shugah:

Pay close attention to the house issue. I did not realize how sensitive and delicate that is to men. Steve H. says that for men house ownership symbolizes a close connection.

To All:

I think it's important for folks on the forum to not be judgmental. I was feeling that way. It won't drive me away from here but think about that woman that was starting to date and folks seemed to gang up on her. She's not here anymore and may need us. We are only human and our emotions can overpower us especially after being traumatized by the horrors of infidelity.

I was blessed in being able to purchase a house that WS and I had looked at together prior to D-Day. I really believe in MB and it has been the answer for me. However, with any approach, I think it's important to consider individual differences. Steve H. has even done that with me in each session that I have had with him. He calls my WS by name and talks about HIS issues and HIS personality. So I have had to be careful in considering these issues too in my decision-making.

There may have been some miscommunication on my part. I have continued to follow Steve's recommendations. He told me to have MINIMAL COMMUNICATION with my WS but did not instruct me to cut off communication. He told me that my communication should SIMPLY stress GET RID OF OW and that is basicallly what I am doing. WS' reaction has been to continue to beg and plead and to come up with all sorts of strategies in order to remove me from that stance. I have continued to proceed with house plans on my own, buying appliances, arranging movers, etc. In my opinion, PLAN B has worked in showing him life without MIMI. WS knows that his life without MIMI has a high likelihood of continuing but he still is testing me, still hanging on the fence but just about to fall off. It's tricky and delicate. I agree with Espoir that he has to have some sense of connection with me, an olive branch. I hear from Steve H. that he has that opinion, too. Steve almost was giving me permission (?) to meet with WS but Steve picked up on,as we all already know, the strong physical/emotional attraction between WS and I. I think the Harleys left out this chapter on the end of PLAN B and will include it in the revised version of SAA. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

What I was not able to do, which is in reference to a personality feature specific to me, was to live in a rental house. I have continued to check on this for validation. Everybody that really knows me laugns at the thought of me even considering that option. They basically all say :"MIMI" we thought you had gone "crazy" but we did not feel free to tell you; WS had finally sent you over the edge!"

MM also talked about, in the biblical sense, an important issue in our situation. A major problem in our marriage was WS not being included in my decisions, him being left out. This was a huge issue for him not feeling that he was able to fulfill the role of the husband. We will need to work on this in counseling if and when there is reconciliation. However, it is important to note the significance of this issue in the house stuff while he is considering coming HOME. Of course, none of the marital issues justify or excuse him for having an A.

These are some things I felt I had to say.

<small>[ August 01, 2003, 08:32 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Thanks for the help in understanding things better, Mimi. You're in the best capable hands when following SteveH's advice.

One note: I am one of the many who made the terrible mistake and "dated" while separated. It was a HUGE mistake that I regret with all my heart. I hurt someone terribly and I also added to my grief and prolonged my healing.

Don't get me wrong, I wanted my marriage and husband back more than anything in this world, I really thought I was going to die without him. But this guy was pretty wonderful and he made me feel better.

I had several people here tell me to wait, and they didn't pull any punches. But did I listen? NOOOOOO, I wanted to feel good and having this guy fall all over me certainly was a high UNTIL I started to fall apart again. I had no business dating, I was a wreak and emotionally bankrupt, but THAT HIGH is undeniably the greatest feeling until it's gone, then you're emotionally worse off than you were before you dated.

I just thought I'd share that, hope it's okay I did.

Very Best,
Jo

<small>[ August 01, 2003, 10:26 AM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

I AM NOT DATING ANYBODY including my WS !!!!

<small>[ August 01, 2003, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Mimi,

Another misunderstanding. I do know that, I was referring to the woman you made reference of in your latest post, Hon.

No worries, please be okay. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Jo

Mimi,

I dont know about everyone else, but I KNOW what you are talking about. I also have been talking to Steve over all of this, and what you posted rings true to his advice.

Plan B is meant to be no, or minimal contact (kids, finances, etc). But, as I posted on a nother thread (I think it was NowWhat), there is a point, a transition period, where the WS does come looking for an "olive branch." So, unlike some who say stay completely in the dark until the NC letter is sent, I found in my case, with Steve's advice backing me, that it was good to show my wife that I meant what I said in the letter

Up to the point where she came by and wanted to talk reconciliation, I had gone dark. Minimal contact And that contact was VERY structured. But when she showed up at my door in January (a full six weeks after going dark), we had a 4 hour conversation. No how is that no contact? How is that minimal contact? She hadnt sent the NC letter to the OM. So why was I even talking to her?

Well, I wasnt really. I didnt initiate this. I didnt drive the conversation. I didnt even offer up anything in the conversation that wasnt asked for by my wife. I let her talk. I let her ask questions. You see, I learned that while we here at MB understand the dynamics and all, our WSs might want to come back...but are very afraid of what will happen. Did we mean what we said in the letter? Is there a chance to work on this?

For everyone here...there is a point (FWSs please let me know if I'm off base) where the WS got to that got them into the affair. Once in it, the OP and the BS was meeting their needs. they stayed in the fog and fence sat because they were too scared to let one go. After loneliness, whatever, that led to the affair, now they were having all their needs met. To let one or the other go would be VERY painful...and no guarantee that the person they chose to keep would meet the needs that the other was meeting. Very scary for someone in an addiction!

So, Plan B forces them to live that painful life for awhile. It wakes them up to what is inevitably going to happen, one way or another. Once they understand this, in most cases, it means the end of the relationship with the OP. The WS now knows that they dont want to live without their spouse. Because of a good Plan A, they also have some idea that their spouse might just meet their needs like they have always wanted. And because of Plan A and Plan B, the OP has now shown their true colors...and the WS KNOWs that the OP aint "all that!"

But, now they are stuck with an OP that they know isnt what they want, and is increasingly LBing them. They have no contact with their spouse because they are in Plan B. The WS is in pain, and it is getting worse, both from the withdrawal from their spouse AND from the increasing discontent with their OP. They begin to panic. they try crazy things to get us to engage them. But the BS, if aware of this, will KNOW if the WS wanting to engage them is just panic, or finally a break through.

While it is still panic, while the WS still wants to fence sit, the BS just refers the WS back to the PBL and goes dark again. This is where Now What is. What this does is to push the WS back into their pain, with no needs still met by the BS the pain continues and increases.

Finally, if this process is stuck to, the WS has a breakthrough. They know they want to come back. They want to get rid of the OP. But they dont know how. Sure, they can read our PBL. But that isnt very descriptive. "What should the letter say? I care for the OP...how do I do this without hurting them (which they will finally realize that they cant...that pain is all a part of this process)? What if I get rid of OP and BS doesnt take me back? I mean, I havent had much interaction with BS. Maybe they have moved on. How do I know that what they showed me in Plan A is true, the changes? What if I go back and everything is the same as before, OR WORSE?" A thousand questions...and no answers for them.

I likened this on another post to an army surrendering to another army. They sit across a field, one army defeated but still hasnt given up. They want to. But can they trust the winners to treat them well. the winners sent over fliers telling them how they should surrender, and that they would be treated well. But can they believe them?

At some point, they will raise the white flag. Now...who's responsibility is it to make the surrender go smoothly? Who's responsibility is it to guide the loser through the process...to make them feel comfortable enough to lay down their arms and give up? of course...the winners are responsible.

So, in this case, it is the BS's responsibility to guide the WS through the process…to put out that olive branch…to help them through the process. THAT DOES NOT MEAN MEETING THE WS'S NEEDS! It means being there to instruct them on how things should go. It is allowing the WS to question you, to see if you really mean what you have said. It is staying on message, not deviating into meeting any of their WS's needs…thus allowing them to stay on the fence.

I believe Plan B is part of the "war." But at some point, Plan B has to start going into what I call the transition period. The surrender period. This period is very dangerous just like in war, the "enemy" could decide to not surrender, and fire back…wounding you. In this case, it might be a false reconciliation, and they are trying to pull you back onto the fence. But, if you want the"war" to end, there are chances that have to be taken,

When an enemy surrenders, the winner does not just lay down their arms and run across the field to give a big hug to their vanquished foe. No. The winner stands on guard. The winner tries to make the loser comfortable and understand that all will be well if they follow instructions. BUT THEY ALSO LET THE LOSER KNOW THAT THEY MUST FOLLOW INSTRUCTIONS!

The WS has no right to negotiate. They have no right to set the terms of surrender. All they can do is refer to the terms of surrender that the BS wrote up (PBL) and follow them. They will try to negotiate. And the BS refers them to the PBL. They will try everything in the book. Again, refer to the PBL.

But eventually, the "enemy" gives up. Now starts the transition period. Neither side trusts the other, especially if there have been "false surrenders" before. But it is up to the BS to guide them through it.

Now, if we are in Plan B and "dark," how are we able to guide them through it? Well, we must go what I call "semi-dark." We stick to Plan B first of all. NO ENs being met (that includes SF, Mimi!…sorry, I was the same way with my wife…even had SF one time during the transition period (in late January)…and it only pushed things off further because I could see my wife wanting to go back on the fence right after that). So, we stick to the heart of Plan B. But like the "minimal contact" that parents have to have during Plan B for the sake of the kids, there should be minimal contact during the surrender period.

Once I was in the surrender or transition period, and right after I screwed up with the SF, I truly went to semi-dark. I would allow her to call and talk to me about her questions. I went with her for a few times to her counseling sessions that I had mandated in my PBL that she start again. At these sessions, I was able to help the counselor get started with her therapy. I would allow her to express her fears, and pain. But I never comforted her in a way to meet her needs. I just pointed her back to the PBL. I pointed her to SAA, and MB. I pointed her to what she saw in my Plan A. And I told her that it was al true, but she was going to have to make it happen.

At first, as she started to make the baby steps, she would call a lot. It is like a baby looking back to see if Dad is there to catch them as they first learn to walk. But as she felt more comfortable, she decided to tell the OM of NC forever…that she was ending it. Once that happened, she turned to me tearfully and very scared…expecting her life to blow up. She had just laid down her arms. And what she got was not what she expected. Basically, she got a hug.

So Mimi, I agree with you. You are now doing well with Steve's advice and I feel you have a good grasp on what he thinks you should do. The house situation is okay. That isnt the problem. Of course, I believe that your husband is in this transition or surrender period. And of course, you don't want to make life altering changes that will affect him right now, and them have him home two weeks from now. So, I believe that you have done the right thing with the house.

But Mimi, be careful. You have had false reconciliations before. While he may WANT to do this, his fear may drive him away again. That is why you must stay tough. Tough love as Dobson puts it. Guide him through this...but don't get close. Don't meet any of his needs. But do let him express himself, let him ask questions Answer him so he can trust you, trust that where he is headed is in fact reality. Remember, he ran to the OW and "thought" that was reality. Now he knows it isnt. But, how can he trust himself enough to know if YOU are fantasy, or reality?

So, minimal contact Semi-dark. Stay tough with him. The house, and your physical attraction for each other, are two biggies that are helping him to move your way. You don't need to help that along by giving in to him.

Keep on with this. Be wary. Be careful. I think we are talking two weeks MAX if you can stick to this.

In His arms.

<small>[ August 01, 2003, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

Mortarman:

You are an absolute genius!!!!

You have put into words exactly what has been going on with me and WS. I am definitely in the transition period and I am definitely being wary. He keeps asking me questions-when I give him the chance. Reasonable questions that he knows that I will answer yet are pertinent. For example, he asked when my son's first football game is, indicating that he will be going to it. His questions and statements also include direct quotes from my PBL so he must keep it with him and read it. I am then able to refer him back to it. It's amazing!

It's empowering to me because I know exactly what is going on. I have a strategy. He does not.

I've been trying to let you guys know that I am being very careful and wary. It is a real tricky and delicate situation.

More later. Have to work.

<small>[ August 01, 2003, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Mimi,

First of all, stick with the plan. I am with you and hope that this progress continues to the resolution you (and us) have all been waiting for. I went back and read nearly all of your thread and the distance that has been covered has been amazing. I'm not so sure mine will end the same way but I will bring that up on my thread.

Secondly, you are right, MM is masterful at these concepts and the way he uses analogies etc.. to describe things really brings it to a easily understood plan to grasp and put into action. It is our emotions, like mine the other day, that screw it up. If there was only a switch to turn them off and on.

Anyway, take care, good luck, and I'm thinking of you. NW

How's it feel to have the "power" now? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

In His arms.

NW,

Believe me...I KNOW what you are talking about with the emotions thing. My emotions continue to this day to get me into trouble. And then I beat myself up later for doing what I KNOW isnt right and not helpful.

So, dont beat yourself up. As I tell myself after screwing up..."Just do better."

Mimi

you are getting great advice and support here right now. This is a difficult time for you, and it is 'exciting' for the people here because they can see how close you are. That combination may lead to things that seem/are judgemental being posted here. If I have been among those who have overstepped the line, please accept an apology. We care and want you to continue your great progress.

Hang in there.

S.

MM, you do such a beautiful job of laying it all out! Mimi, hang in there, I am rooting for you and I know it will all come through. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hey Guys,

I have my ups and downs. I resent having to go through this moving process alone. I become fearful that he has stalled me in the process of moving on with my life while I sit around in the castle. However, I really wasn't ready to move on.

MM is so on target though about what seems to be going on right now. It is empowering to have knowledge of the process. As I look back WH has asked lots of questions in our MINIMAL CONTACT to which I given simple answers. I did not realize what was going on until MM brought this to my attention. Given the the high EN of physical attraction to him: WH: "How often are you working out?" Me: Mostly everyday. WH: "I can tell. You sure look good." I know OW has picked up weight. So that is probably an issue. He's also asked lots of questions about son's behavior which was an issue for him. Is he helping out around the house? Is he staying out late? The questions were asked in an offhand manner like he was just generally interested so I did not realize their significance.

Onward with packing....

<small>[ August 02, 2003, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

How is the packing going Mimi?

My house looks like a war zone.

Well, I am in a war according to MM. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

WS is taking BABY STEPS as MM predicted but still has not done NC letter.

He called on Voice Mail to say that he has his Voice Mail turned back on. If you guys remember, I've been asking for this since the beginning of PLAN B. He also went over to visit my grandparents, who are extremely important to me. He has not seen them in months. They have been asking repeatedly about where he is. They are in their 90s. I am their caretaker.

I have felt good about all my accomplishments in completing the move on my own.

Will keep you posted.

<small>[ August 04, 2003, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

I have been super busy trying to pack up and move.

I have been maintaining minimal contact with WS. He seems to be taking BABY STEPS.

He has turned his Voice Mail back on which has been a major issue for me since he left in May.

He is giving August 15th as the magic date when he will deliver the NC Letter and wants to go away that weekend. I'm not sure what is so important about the 15th. Why not today? I keep repeating the simple phrase of "Get rid of her" as I have been instructed. He has asked my help with writing the letter. I think I'm supposed to be in on his planning with this but have not responded YEA of NAY. I told him to write it. That's what's most important. He seems to be continuing to panic about my move and seems motivated to want to move into the house with me which seems to be contributing to his motivation to end things. I have been so overwhelmed with the moving details to get involved in his drama.

WS is using Steve Harley's exact words. WS says: I have my PRIDE. I got myself into this mess and have to get out of it MY WAY . He must have said this to Steve in January and is SAYING the same thing now.

I move tomorrow.

Stay strong Mimi! You sound very close to be a success story and moving into recovery. I suspect that the Aug 15 date thing is just a form of your H maintaining some control over what he does. But the most importatnt thing will be that it happens.

I moving too, on Saturday. I have been doing some packing and running into many memories. It is hard.
NW

Happy Moving, Everyone.

At the risk of hijacking, let me say it is a horrible nite. Discovered that H has established a secret email address for the OW to contact him, AND that she is putting in place plans for the two of them to take a trip. Major pain, major tears, how long can one continue this?

Mimi, hang in, gal. You are SOOOOOO close. I am hanging on to your every move. You are an encouragement to the rest of us.

I know you will be busy, but will look for you on the weekend.

ISG

ISGirl, pox that trip! if I'd found the emails on their trip plan, I can guarantee he'd never have made it out of our drive way! I would have disabled cars, phones, and held him at gun point. LOL But I mean it. I would have been so angry I'd have killed to keep him from fulfilling plans with her! But I wouldn't have had to kill, I'd just have gotten his airline ticket hid in his truck and torn it to shreds! He could have walked to call cab, but he wouldn't have gotten to airport which is 50 miles away. LOL
Do what you have to do to keep him from completing this plan!
In fact, one of my other thoughts was I would have filed divorce and put his papers in with his airline ticket for him to find first! Along with their emails to prove why.
I am so sick of hearing how these UH lie, cheat, steal, deceive. It's high time they had to face the music before they have their fun. Not after when they can say sorry, because they're not! They have already gotten what they want so it's impossible to feel sorry then other than getting caught.
Um, send your H over to my house. I can handle him in 5 secs. flat!
Any BS here thought of a 9mm for the jerks? Make it hollow points too!
LouLou

Some more positive steps....

WS called 16 year old son today. Son told me tonight, thinking that I told WS to call which I didn't. WS told son: "I know this is hard for you. Hang in there." Asked him about football practice. He hasn't talked to son since June. He has been helping out 20 year old with getting car fixed after wreck.

The weekend will be hard for me again because he is still with the OW. I don't think their contact is as much.

I'll only believe my WS when it really happens. He seems to want to do right. But this is an addiction. I liken it to when I knew smoking was bad for me but I couldn't stop until I finally made up my mind to do it despite how hard I knew the withdrawal would be.

Meanwhile, onward with the packing.

Hang in there guys. This is rough for us!!!

<small>[ August 07, 2003, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>