Well, my thread has finally drifted into the ether - before I got a chance to thank you, ss for your support.

I am doing OK - but also having trouble posting sometimes - I have tried to post a couple of times, but when I click on "Add reply", my post doesn't "send" - although this has been frustrating at the time, I am being philosophical about it. Sometimes I have bad days, but most days are good - I have a lot of mixed feelings about our "recovery" and about the whole counselling experience - sometimes I need to talk about it, and I might come here to post, even if no-one responds, because MB for me is a "safe" place where I can talk about things, reveal my feelings and receive constructive feedback.

I have made some wonderful cyber friends here and wish I could communicate more, better, and more often. For some reason, most of my efforts to come here end up being blocked, but I want to say a huge thank you to everyone here.

To ss - I suspect we could still have a lot to talk about if I could spend more time posting - it feels very much like we have reached a similar place to you - we still have problems with communication, and there are still "issues" - but I now look at things differently, and I know that I have grown a great deal - I think H has been badly shaken by his own capacity for betrayal, and has been forced to look at his own abusive behaviour and how much he takes for granted. Even though he has not talked, and I suspect, he may never talk about it, I think he is changing himself - really working on it. I feel like finally we are both working on it. So now we have a chance.

I have to go now - again, I'm at work, but all the best from me - I will be back when I can.

LIR

Hi LIR,

I almost missed your post as it was on page two which I usually do not check.

It's good to hear that you are OK.

Very weird weather here. Yesterday the high was 103F. Today it is 53F!!

I have a suggestion to help with lost posts. I learned this from the earlier days when AOL had so many disconnects and I lost many long posts.

Type the message in a Word document first and save it. Then copy and paste it into the MB message location. If things don't work right, the message is still available for you to try again. Also, this way, you can work on your message a little at a time then post when it is convenient instead of trying to squeeeze in all you want to say on your breaks. Maybe this strategy will help.

Happy springtime,
Estes

Hi again –

Well, my thread has finally drifted into the ether
It’s still there, I saw it just the other day looking for something else. I supposed you wanted it gone as discussed before.

I am doing OK - but also having trouble posting sometimes - I have tried to post a couple of times, but when I click on "Add reply", my post doesn't "send" - although this has been frustrating at the time, I am being philosophical about it.
That has happened to me lots of times. I finally started doing as Estes recommends, and now I don’t loose them. I imagine you don’t get much time at work on breaks to post. Any hope for that home computer? I recall you once said you wanted to have it checked for virus’s and H said it couldn’t possibly be that. Do you know what it is?

Sometimes I have bad days, but most days are good
Sounds a lot like most of the population of this world we live on – LOL. I am not making fun of you, but yes, that would describe me exactly.

- I have a lot of mixed feelings about our "recovery" and about the whole counseling experience - sometimes I need to talk about it, and I might come here to post, even if no-one responds, because MB for me is a "safe" place where I can talk about things, reveal my feelings and receive constructive feedback.
1. People WILL respond.
2. Your feelings are well founded and normal. I don’t know how much you still read, but many report similar happenings to yours in counseling.
3. I have mixed feelings, and my W has mixed feelings. We just keep working on things, and you know, over time, it seems to get a tiny bit better.

I have made some wonderful cyber friends here and wish I could communicate more, better, and more often. For some reason, most of my efforts to come here end up being blocked, but I want to say a huge thank you to everyone here.
You have probably taught me more than I have taught me. I thank you. I think I have learned a great deal about bravery from you and Jante. I tried to thank her but she says she’s not brave, “just doing what I have to do.” You’re both modest too, but I don’t want to embarrass you.
I once lost a big post that I was going to post to you, and I was very frustrated and ( in my mind) said “why me” and the answer seemed to come back: “that’s’ something you know how to fix, don’t blame me.” So as was said, I use the word processor.

To ss - I suspect we could still have a lot to talk about if I could spend more time posting - it feels very much like we have reached a similar place to you - we still have problems with communication, and there are still "issues" - but I now look at things differently, and I know that I have grown a great deal
It goes back to being happy most days. The days I am happy, I can make it work. The other days, I avoid thinking about it because those thoughts don’t help. Life is good, even with all the lumps. I have noticed the fire is still hot, maybe hotter, but that’s the way it will be – in this life.

- I think H has been badly shaken by his own capacity for betrayal, and has been forced to look at his own abusive behaviour and how much he takes for granted. Even though he has not talked, and I suspect, he may never talk about it, I think he is changing himself - really working on it. I feel like finally we are both working on it. So now we have a chance.
I hate to admit this, but you made me cry. I am glad for both of you, and I worried a lot about this for months. If improvement continues, someday he’ll talk. You need that from him too, and you know it – someday. Remember not to let the bad get to you. You know that you can only do the best you can do, and you can’t fix him. Help, but not fix. I have a great deal of faith in you.

I have to go now - again, I'm at work, but all the best from me - I will be back when I can.
It’s always good to hear from you, I don’t worry nearly as much, but I still pray for you.

Hope the boys and the garden are doing well. I sometimes think about your boys and hope that you can teach them how to rise above themselves. It’s hard to see our faults and fix them, but you are doing that, and I believe you can teach your sons how to do it. When I was a teen, I had no idea life had so many sides to it, but just as well, those years were hard enough without knowing.

Like I have said more than once, I have never been good at closings.

SS

Hello Estes and ss -

It was so nice to hear from you both again - thank you so much for your replies - they mean a lot to me.

Estes - I will take your advice on composing my posts into a Word document - this will work at work, and it will help me also to organize my thoughts if I am able to take longer over what I say - thanks so much for the suggestion. The weather here is wierd, too - very cool now in May, after a hot April - lots of wind and rain this past week - I haven't been to my vegetable garden for a week - I should have, but I've had a busy week and there has been so much rain that I'm hoping things are OK up there.

ss - thank you for dropping by - its good to know that you are still out there - I have been doing a lot of mulling over inside and am trying to work out exactly what I'm feeling right now, which is somewhat difficult.

My H is away on a business trip for a few days, so for the first time in the last 6 weeks, I feel I have some time to post a little, which I want to do.

First of all, I would say, that I think things are going well with us - H seems to be happy with me - affectionate, and trying hard to please me. He is also working better - I mean that he is composing again - something he hasn't done in two years. He started reading "The Confessions of St Augustine" about 2 months ago - I read in the newspaper that Gerard Depardieu has started a project to give public readings of "The Confessions of St Augustine" in all the places where St Augustine actually lived, including his birthplace, Algeria, because in 2000, he had a private meeting with the Pope, who exclaimed that he made him think of St Augustine. GD went off and read St. A, and totally identified with him - St. A was very rebellious, was a troubled teenager who gave his mother a lot of grief, became a thief, was sexually all over the place with women, lived with a woman and fathered a child by her, witnessed at first hand all the depravity of the Roman arena - then he found God. I told H about this, in a casual kind of way, and he bought himself a copy and has been reading it ever since. I teased him about it a little, and he kidded back that I shouldn't tease him when he's "trying to sort myself out".

Today is also my birthday. I'm 46 today. Its just me and my 7-yr old at home, because OS is still in school - comes home Monday. But I have had calls from everyone in my family in the States, as well as H, who is calling from a tiny island off the coast of Germany - I was surprised he called me, because I didn't think he would be able to get to a phone - thought it would be too much trouble for him. But he came through.

He also took me out to lunch at a First Class restaurant (and I mean that) before he left. There's a story behind that - he was making up to me the fact that he promised to take me there for lunch the last time he was out of the country on my birthday, which was 5 years ago, but he forgot. About a month ago, we had a "mini-row" - I wouldn't call it a major row, even though it was difficult. What happened was that he told me that he had been offered some work over this weekend, which he wanted to take, but it just happened to be over my birthday weekend. Well, it triggered those old feelings of feeling neglected ( I remembered that time when he promised to take me to lunch at this special restaurant, but then he didn't follow through - I have never reminded him of this, thinking I shouldn't, but I haven't been able to forget it, mainly because every time we drive past this restaurant, he says "Oh, that's a marvelous restaurant, have you never been there? You must go sometime!" TOTALLY forgetting that he promised me a birthday lunch there FIVE years ago!!!!) So I kind of snapped "Well, it won't be the first time!" I was sorry I said it as soon as I did, but it was too late, I had said it - it was late, and we both went to bed. I thought about it a lot, and by the morning, I was OK with it - I had figured out it would be OK dealing with child care, and I wasn't going to be hung up about it being my birthday - I knew he would do something nice for me when he came back. In the morning I said it would all be fine, I had figured it out, so not to worry, but he was upset with me for the way I had snapped at him and persisted in trying to talk about why I was so resentful. Finally I said "OK, you are right - I did snap at you, and it was for a specific reason - you have probably forgotten, but...." and I told him about his promise 5 years ago. Of course, he got mad - before I started, he said "I smell a rat". I said that if he was going to refer to my sharing my feelings and being honest with him in that disrespectful way, that I would not talk to him. He said he was sorry, that it was just a figure of speech. I went on and told him, and he did get mad - he got angry and frustrated and said that it was absurd that I hung on to everything he had done wrong, even something that happened 5 years ago - he said that it was obvious that he wasn't good enough for me and that he couldn't live up to my standards - he said I should go find someone else who could. I said that that was him speaking, that I had never said he wasn't good enough for me and that I didn't want anyone else. I said that I was being honest, that this had hurt me and I had felt neglected. I was trying to be honest with him - that I felt fine about him going this time, but that that was the reason why I had snapped at him - I said "call it a trigger if you like, it revived memories". I said that I would talk to him more if we could both be respectful of each other, but I was late for work and had to go. When I got home, he kissed me as I came in the door. Later, I asked him if he had found a good price for his plane ticket, and he then got out his calendar and said "Are you free for lunch on the 21st?" So...it was a fine restaurant - I had a marvellous lunch, and it was worth waiting for!

So even though we had this difficult confrontation, I thought we managed to get through it reasonably well. That's what I mean when I say that I have changed. I did not react with anger and blame and foam at the mouth with all my self-righteous indignation and resentment at being neglected. I told him very simply that his forgetting had hurt me and made me feel neglected, but I told him in a respectful way. It still hurt him to hear me say this, and he reacted with anger and frustration, but I did not then feed the anger and storm out of the house. When I left, I told him that I was not interested in finding someone "better" than him. I think it made room for us to resolve this and forgive and make up. This is what I mean, ss when I said that you have helped me to see him differently, not through the filter of my own resentment. I know he still hurts, but I can now see that he hurts - I could see that he felt that he could never do anything right for me, that it looked like I was always going to hang on to past grievances, but I tried to communicate to him that this was not true, that he is "good enough" for me, but that I was being honest about past hurts, which we have to talk about at times like these, if we are to get past them and move on into a future together. I hope our being able to resolve this one will help give him confidence in himself, in me, and in the chance we have, but I don't take anything for granted.

That leads into the other thing which is that I still look at him as an addictive personality - and so I am trying to approach my life the way I would if I were living with an alcoholic. I cannot fix him and its useless to try, or even to think about why he is the way he is - I have spent the last nearly 20 years crazy-making myself, trying to figure out why and cope with him being the way he is, but I have learned that that's a dead end - for both of us. He is responsible for himself - and I have to look after me. He is not yet "in recovery", if you want to look at it in AA terms. He hasn't admitted that he has a problem (except that one time during Lent when he quietly admitted to the air in the room that dishonesty was one of his character flaws), and he has made no moves to change the way he lives in terms of his privacy, or the way he handles his earnings. I have decided not to challenge him on these things for now. It may be that they come up in the course of things like the restaurant episode did, and then I will try to deal with them in the same calm way. I also feel that, like an alcoholic, it is one day of sobriety, or in his case, faithfulness and honesty, at a time, and at any time, he could "fall off the wagon". I don't take anything for granted anymore.

For me, the important thing is that H has not been aggressive at all - maybe he has had some realization that he was out of control and that that kind of behaviour really IS intolerable in a marriage. It may be that I have also realized the same thing, and since I have stopped reacting to him angrily, the pressure is now on him to act respectfully. So maybe its that we are creating new habits.

I feel a lot better having posted this. It is true that I have been silent not just because of difficulty getting computer time, but also because I have felt like a tortoise who jerks itself back into her shell. The way my counselor ended with me really upset me, and I felt (and still feel) very vulnerable. I feel like I have tried to bring out into the open very serious problems between us, most importantly his physical aggression towards me, but not only that, the mental and emotional violence directed at me. I don't say that lightly. Unlike you ss, my H does not admit to anyone that he has a problem. I had very serious fears about his mental health (as you know), which I think were well-founded. In other words, when push comes to shove, publicly, it is all my fault. My H is a very talented man, and very charming to everyone - most people would find it hard to believe he could treat me the way he has - even our closest friends find it hard to imagine him that way. For me to say what I have, to accuse him of treating me this way and behaving the way he has seems crazy - it looks like what he says is true - that I am a depressive, and that I am pathologically jealous of what are "just friendships" that he has with other women. I would have to show copies of the e-mails he exchanged with OW2, and OW1, in order to get his friends to believe me, and I think that is really a low thing to do. So I'm left feeling that he has come out publically smelling like a rose, and maybe it looks like I am the one who went haywire (yet again) but now I am "better" again. I have a hard time controlling these negative thoughts - the worries of how others perceive me. But the best way to combat that is to go on with my life in a positive way and prove them all wrong - so I try to hold my head up high, even when I am afraid of what people are thinking of me. Right now, I can be hyper-sensitive. I am also angry at my counselor - I think she screwed up and then backed out, leaving me in the lurch. Instead of offering constructive help, she left me feeling like there was something wrong with me for being suspicious and untrusting, even when she had first-hand experience of my H's skewed perceptions and bad temper. I just don't think she was up to the job. I feel like counselling was a waste of time and money, and my H feels the same way.

Anyway - that's the bitter part of my mixed feelings. Thank you all for listening - it does help me to post this - like I said, this is a safe place for me -

The other reason why I am not here so much is that I am actively trying not to dwell on the problems, or to wallow in "victimhood". I am trying to get on with my life, even though H has not done the MB recovery steps. I said that I had stepped off the rollercoaster of pain, and I have, but in the absence of the gut-wrenching pain I have felt for the last two years, is the emptiness of facing yourself and what you can make of yourself in this life - that's hard - I'm trying to face myself right now and come up with something that I feel happy with - not there yet, is all I can say at this point. LOL

Got to go to bed now - since I ate the whole box of birthday chocolates in one sitting, the caffeine has kept me awake, but now its time to go sleep it off! -)

Take care everyone,
LIR

I have some thoughts for you, but no time, I'll get back to you.

SS

Hi ss - thanks for dropping by - still doing OK - its sort of 2 steps forward and one step back. Had a confrontation the other night, where he was his "old" self - the subject sneaked on to politics (we are on opposite sides of the table when it comes to the war on Iraq, which I try not to talk about) - he started getting "expressive" and I asked him to please lower his voice and not shout - he said I was being "unreasonable, difficult, and taking it personally when it wasn't meant personally", I retired from the conversation, and a little later in the evening, tried to get him to watch a video with me, but he was restless - he had other things to do which he hadn't told me about, and would have liked to watch the video, but didn't really have time. I tried to get him to talk to me, but he got upset and refused saying that never led to anything, that I was still unreasonable and difficult and that I was shouting at him. The reality was I never raised my voice or accused him of anything, I simply invited him to talk "Won't you come in and talk about it?" Flat out no. He said that I was "flying off the handle" because I was "waving my arms around" - one of my hands and moved about six inches away from my waist. I laughed and gave him a demonstration of flying off the handle as I saw it - waving my arms around over my head and pretending to shout - I felt like saying "next time, remind me to put my straitjacket on if I want to talk to you", but I didn't. I just laughed it off. Finally I said, "Well, I have work to do and I know you do, too - I'm sorry about the video, it was just bad timing on my part - we'll do it another time." And I went up to do my work and didn't buy into any more of it. He was a little cool the next day, Saturday, but that was the day they had all planned a delayed birthday party for me, so by the end of the day, we were all happy again, and this incident now seems forgotten.

Still - it does mean that communication is still no closer to being easier, and shows that he still has a lot of the same problems, no matter how I try to approach him. I have to remember to stay off the subject of politics entirely.

I am still OK - will have to catch up with you later, but I appreciate you're still being here for me. Hope you are well and that those vegetables are not frying in all the hot sun!

Take care,
LIR

Well, he sort of forgot our anniversary today? Should I be worried?

I got him a funny card and left it downstairs in the kitchen where I knew he'd find it first thing after he got up.

"What's this? What's the occasion?...Oh...our anniversary - when is it? Today? I KNEW there was something!"

He laughed and kissed me - is this a man thing or what?

While I'm not getting too worked up about it, since he has just given me a great birthday, it does niggle a little that he didn't have it written down, and it would have just flown past him if I hadn't beat him to the starting post, especially after all we've been through...hmmm...

LIR

Well Well, I see your H is still at it.

- its sort of 2 steps forward and one step back.
I feel that way sometimes, and I know my W does also. I figure it is normal. After all, we are all married, are we not? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I tried to get him to talk to me, but he got upset and refused saying that never led to anything, that I was still unreasonable and difficult and that I was shouting at him. The reality was I never raised my voice or accused him of anything, I simply invited him to talk "Won't you come in and talk about it?" Flat out no. He said that I was "flying off the handle" because I was "waving my arms around" - one of my hands and moved about six inches away from my waist.

Translation – you are getting the best of me here, so I don’t want to play any more. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I laughed and gave him a demonstration of flying off the handle as I saw it - waving my arms around over my head and pretending to shout - I felt like saying "next time, remind me to put my straitjacket on if I want to talk to you", but I didn't. I just laughed it off. Finally I said, "Well, I have work to do and I know you do, too - I'm sorry about the video, it was just bad timing on my part - we'll do it another time." And I went up to do my work and didn't buy into any more of it. He was a little cool the next day, Saturday, but that was the day they had all planned a delayed birthday party for me, so by the end of the day, we were all happy again, and this incident now seems forgotten.

You can leave, or you can stay and continue to work on it with the best tools you have. I think you do really well, I just wish he would call a truce and work with you.
Sighhhh.

Still - it does mean that communication is still no closer to being easier, and shows that he still has a lot of the same problems, no matter how I try to approach him. I have to remember to stay off the subject of politics entirely.
I admit I was very much like he was. I still stop my self sometimes and apologize but I wish I could get over doing things like that. It it normal? I can't say, but I know there are at least two of us now.

I am still OK - will have to catch up with you later, but I appreciate you're still being here for me. Hope you are well and that those vegetables are not frying in all the hot sun!
We are getting squash and zucchini now, but the tomatoes are a few weeks away. We have some jalapeno peppers coming on too, and made fajitas tonight with some of them and some milder peppers. I wish the tomatoes were ready!

Well, he sort of forgot our anniversary today? Should I be worried?
I only did that one time. I still can't believe I did it. My W used to be………………I don't want to say upset, but maybe hurt would be a better word. Her birthday often overlaps trade show that happens to be the most important one I attend. She was hurt even though she knew how important it is to the business to attend that show. I tried to make it up with nice cards and gifts and even trips but it still hurt her. She went to the show once with me but said she didn't want to go again because " all you do is work when you are there." ??? Am I missing something????
Yes, that's the only reason I am away on your birthday, if I didn't have work, I would rather spend time with you, as I have said for years. If I had time to party, I would get done early and come home.

I got him a funny card and left it downstairs in the kitchen where I knew he'd find it first thing after he got up. "What's this? What's the occasion?...Oh...our anniversary - when is it? Today? I KNEW there was something!"

He laughed and kissed me - is this a man thing or what?
As I say, I only missed it once, I can be taught.
I don't know if it is a man thing, but I know other men that don't remember. My father found out I started to buy my W flowers ( about a year ago or so, after I found MB) and said " you may not want to do that, once you get started it’s hard to ever stop." I said something to the effect that I never WANT to stop, but you can see how some men feel about it.

While I'm not getting too worked up about it, since he has just given me a great birthday, it does niggle a little that he didn't have it written down, and it would have just flown past him if I hadn't beat him to the starting post, especially after all we've been through...hmmm...
You need care and protection and are not getting it. After reading your posts for over a year, I think it hurt more than you are saying, but I have been wrong before. I hope I am now.

Hmmmmm indeed. I owe Jante some Info but I have been thinking about yours first and can only do one tonight.

I want you to think again about who you are. In the eternal world, you are known, and your outcome is known. Not predetermined, but known. Our father who knows us so well, gives us every chance to do things right, and he wants us to do well, but he gives us free will. I really wanted to so some research before I wrote about this, but I have not, so I will wing it – and let you look up some things if you have time. In the book of revelations, John sees a vision, and the being he sees is so glorious he falls down to worship the angel. The angel tells him to get up, that he is a prophet like John, and he ( John) should worship God. The angel then proceeds to quote the Lord in the first person and closes the 22nd chapter.

I am not sure why I felt like bringing this to your mind ( not exactly, but I'll give it a try.) Sometimes we think heaven belongs to others, and we can't imagine it in connection with our selves. If one that had gone before John could become so glorious that John ( who had seen the Lord, and knew him personally) could mistake this angel for him, then I think you have a chance at something a lot greater than you realize. I think often earth makes heaven far from our hearts, but it doesn't have to be so. When you pray, and when your heart yearns for help, listen with that same heart, and see of you don't feel that help is closer than you knew, and let him fill your heart with love so that you know he is there, and that he cares about, and will care for - you.
Heaven is closer than most of us know. You already know this, but I want to say it again so you can get that feeling about this too – If you have chosen the right path, you will get the help you need. It will always come when you need it to come. You will need to search, and you will need to do your part, but you will know what to do.

I believe you know what I say it true. I commend you for your personal progress. I encourage you to continue. The path is straight and narrow, but we can help each other along, as he would want us to do.
Ponder Heaven, it was your home once, and it's calling you back again. I have found part of heaven in my family as I try to live the way I know I ought to live. See if you can create that in your own home. I think you can.

SS

<small>[ June 06, 2003, 02:25 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Hello again -

Thanks so much for your encouraging words, ss - it really does help to feel that on those days when I might have to handle "the negatives" that I can come here and bounce things off someone, testing out what I think is really going on here. Because, when my H gets in a flap over communicating, as I've illustrated here before, he blames me "You're unreasonable, difficult, its useless talking to you, you're out-of-control, aggressive...etc."

When he starts talking like that, I need a reality check. On Saturday night, we went to a party - it was nice to go out and socialize, meet new people and chat. We met a couple who appeared to be "like chalk and cheese", as they say here. He was German, very open-eyed and mellow, but precise. She was Spanish, emotional and fiery. They both work as translators from home, working side-by-side on their computers in a little office at home. She said that she lived for five years in a dark house, and then 2 years ago, they bought their own home, and what sold them on it was the big windows. The next thing they did was build a conservatory - now she works all winter in the conservatory, with as much light as can be had every day of the winter. See - a practical solution! The other thing is that she dances salsa to burn off her bottled-up energy. She said, "I have a temper and when I am mad, I bite!" LOL She says she gets depressed and irritable if she goes for a long period with no dancing, so her husband takes her to London and sends her out on the dance floor for 5 hours at a stretch - she says he just looks at her and says "you need to dance, let's go!". Here's a woman with the same difficulties I have - getting depressed over lack of light in the winter, and pent-up with too much work and little fun, but her husband understands that these are just practical problems that have a solution - he meets her needs, loves and respects her, and they are happy together. My H, on the other hand, tells me there's something organically wrong with me!

OK, I'm not trying to feel sorry for myself here - what I'm saying is that it helps me not to buy into my H's view of me to meet other people with the same kinds of difficulties who simply handle life in a different way, and love and affirm and take care of each other. Since my H is not so good at that, I have to take care of myself, which is what I am trying to do. Also, I try to look at all the positive things H does to try to meet my needs, as he sees them.

For our anniversary, I think I said I told him I wanted to take him out to lunch at a restaurant of my choice - but it wasn't going to work out because of his schedule. Well, he called me at work later and asked me to meet him - he had cancelled an appointment so we could go to lunch together. I took him to the place I wanted to go to, and he liked it, enjoyed himself, gave me a card. That was it. I was surprised he had made time for lunch - I really wasn't expecting it. Also, remember about my wanting to watch the video together? A few days later, he came back and said "Where's that video you wanted to watch?" I said I took it back to the library - it had to go back. He wanted to know how much it had cost to get it out and then not watch it. I said it wasn't important and we could do it another time, but plan it better. I think it was better that he have the experience of losing his chance to have a good time, and I wasn't going to let him use the situation as an opportunity to badger me about wasting money. I also realize that I got stuck, on that occasion, of the dynamics of a Mars/Venus interaction - wife wants to get close to husband, husband not in the mood, too busy, but doesn't want to hurt W's feelings, says yes half-way, W gets feelings hurt bcos H appears not enthusiastic about "sharing a moment", H senses W's hurt feelings, gets defensive "you're getting the best of me right now, don't ask for more" (ss!), W gets emotional, starts seeing this as part of a bigger "problem", H gets more defensive and closes up more, starts lashing out, W tries harder to get H to talk about the "problem", H gets stony-faced and tense and closes down completely, W goes away hurt. I realized it at the time, so I tried to end it with as little emotional charge as possible, without laying any blame on him - just apologized for choosing the wrong time. So I think I handled that pretty well.

I do have anxieties about "OW3" which I haven't posted here - but I am trying to deal with those suspicions in a positive way, and I am determined that I will not confront - I am a long way from being ready to separate, if that is in the future, and don't want to plunge us headlong, the children as well, into the inferno we have been through in the last two years, which is what I think would happen if I were to accuse him of being too close to OW3. Right now, I am trying my best to do a very positive, long-term plan A, while at the same time, focusing on strengthening my own independence, which will take time. I have hope that he will use this time to sort himself out. There are a lot of small signs that he is choosing to spend time with me and with his family, so I try to focus my mind on those.

Our vegetable patch is going great - warm weather and plenty of rain - boy do things grow fast! I've got broad beans (like lima beans), lettuce, arugula, radishes - anyone LOVE radishes? I've got lots! - and we put in purple french beans, two rows of potatoes and planted some corn, and now I've got 4 tomato plants and some French zucchini to go in - these are round, ball-shaped ones - never had them before - the whole family has got involved in this, especially H - what a good idea it was to do something we could work on together! I tell him every time how much I appreciate all his hard work - how much slower it would be without him!

Gotta go!

Be back soon,
love, LIR

<small>[ June 09, 2003, 05:55 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

LIR,

Don't know if you remember me, but I remember you. I posted to you a couple of times when you left the EN board....I was worried about you. Glad to see you are doing okay.

I too am married to one of those incredibly charming men who outsiders look at and can't imagine he is anything but wonderful. It is a special challenge since there are only a small handful of people who actually know him well enough to see a few flaws in his lovely facade. We had a discussion the other day...a very pleasant one in fact, where we were talking about how no one knows him. He said that he is certain that if they could actually hear his thoughts, that no one would like him. I'm the only one he feels comfortable showing his real self to. I asked him if there was any comfort in knowing that I see all of his faults and still love him. He told me I would never know how grateful he is for that.

I suppose there is some small comfort in that for me too.

LIR,
You seem very well centered to me. It's hard to remember to do this, but when bad feelings surface, it is always good to try and difuse them.

" H, I am not sure how these bad feelings ( or whatever they are) come about, but I do know I love you and want you to be happy. Please remember that I am not perfect yet, and I know I don't always do and say the right things, but I am trying, I am really trying. Please don't hold my imperfection against me."

Again, I am sure you can say it better, but I think you understand.

I enjoyed reading your post, but I won't comment on all of it. Wanted you to know that your H is pretty normal as far as attention to important dates. In this case, normal is a dirty word, but it seems to happen a lot the way you described it.

I think you are passing me up now, and I will be playing relationship catch up to you. From your post to Jante, you have great ability to understand.

It's living it that's hard, isn't it.

SS

Hello -

I'm sorry I haven't been able to get back sooner - computer at work has had trouble getting on the internet, and computer at home went haywire - all back to normal now - so checking in...

Hello starfish - thank you for looking in on me - I did post over on the EN's boards to other people, but I don't think I had a thread of my own there - I wonder if you have me confused with someone else? Even so, I appreciate your reply - I feel similar about my H, except that I feel that he hides his "real" self even from me, most of the time. I really don't know how to describe it, but there is a lack of trust and intimacy between us - we can go along for months, years, living side-by-side, sharing daily life, working through problems, never sharing feelings. I don't feel that he has ever shared his deepest feelings with me. I think he shares what he thinks are his deepest feelings with other women. I think he has a deep fear of commitment - he has got a woman living with him for the rest of her life, who's accepted the job of looking after him (food, laundry, having kids - that's providing him with a family life) - but he's still too afraid to confide in her his deepest fears and longings - he's afraid of ridicule, of being torn down, he's afraid of being hurt and vulnerable - so he builds "special" friendships with other women that are based on their admiration for him (since they never see or experience or have to deal with his anger)and he justifies his need for them by saying that I am "difficult and depressive". Of course, since he is a Catholic, that prevents him from having sex with them, and also prevents him from leaving his wife, even if she is "difficult". In other words, he's a wonderful person who has found himself saddled with a difficult spouse, but his principles prevent him from leaving her, so he deserves some kind of medal for staying. In the meantime, he is starved for companionship and humour, and she is just SOO special...that's what I think goes on in his head.

Well, ss - is that a damning indictment? Maybe - sometimes I have to vent, too. But...I really AM trying to focus on the positives. On Mon night, I was sick with a sore throat, and we were invited out for a late-night drink with some friends at the last minute. I told them I couldn't come (I had taken the day off work - feeling BAD!) but I had no objections to H going. H said he couldn't go, he had work to do (practising) and headed off at 8pm to practice in the church (usually spends 2 hours). He didn't come home until 2:15 am and didn't call, either. I left a msg on his mobile at midnite and again at 1am - I was concerned because there have been two muggings in the early hours of the morning on our road. I was also mad - I figured he had gone for a drink, which I WASN'T upset about, but I was mad at his not calling me. When he got home, I tried to remain calm, but I did tell him that it was inconsiderate and rude of him not to call and tell me that he was going out for a drink with them, so that I wouldn't worry, especially since he had left telling me that he wasn't going to go. He said he thought I would figure where he was. I said that maybe so, but he should still communicate with me. He said he didn't want to wake me up since he knew I was sick. I said it would have been better to call me, so that I wouldn't worry, since I couldn't sleep at all anyway, not knowing where he was. "So I have to report to you?" "No. That's not what it's about. The fact that you even say that hurts me and shows how you feel about being married to me. You should call me because you know that I will worry about you when you are out late. (I listed several married couples and said I didn't think any of the husbands would do to their wives what he did - go out at 8pm, saying they would be gone a couple of hours, then not come home until 2am and not call to say why)." He said, "But if I had called you, you would just say that it wasn't fair I was going without you." I said, "So...if you don't think you are going to get the answer you want, you don't bother to communicate, is that it? I never said that I would mind if you went - if you wanted to go, you could have talked to me about it." "Should I sleep downstairs, then?" "What for? You're not a little boy!" We went to bed. In the morning, I didn't take him a cup of tea, and stayed out of his way so that I was only with him in the presence of our son. He was kind in the morning, said he was sorry, reiterated that he didn't want to wake me up, I said that he should always communicate, and that it was only because I was worried about him. We are now back to "normal".
What do you think? I thought I had to be honest about how I felt, without being aggressive or punishing. I hope I did OK - I'm not happy with his continuing attitude that he doesn't owe me an explanation - his lack of accountablity, but there you have it - two steps forward, one step back.

Gotta go because I'm at work -

Take care,
LIR

Not meant to be a reflection on you at all, It's just that saying things like this usually deflect anger.

Please don't think I want you to take blame, I have learned to say things that work, and they are true after all, even if he needs most of the improvment.

I don't have time to say more, leaving on a trip now.

LIR, I think highly of you, more than most here, I am sorry if I ever make you feel uncomfortable, because you don't need that. ( some do, but not you. ) Please forgive me.

I think you did well, and yes you should say how you feel, he needs to know that - I can't see how you could have done that one better. Continue.

SS

<small>[ June 12, 2003, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Thanks, ss - I always appreciate other people's insight, and don't worry, I'm always ready to hear where I could do better - I think I could have done better. There were a couple of things I said badly - when he gave his first excuse, my angry response was "That's just not good enough!" - that immediately put his back up and it wasn't a kind thing to say, but I am torn between being able to express my anger and show how it makes me feel to be treated like this, and to be strong enough to say how I expect to be treated (to make the groundrules clear and unambiguous) and "training myself" to express myself in a respectful way, regardless of how he is behaving. I do think I managed (just) to do that, but I could have done it better, I think.

Some positive points - he was kind and conciliatory the next morning and wanted to talk about it - I made it clear that I ALWAYS want to hear from him if he is going to be late, because I worry about him, and it is the courteous and repectful thing to do towards a person who loves you. Yesterday, I brought him some flowers, which surprised and cheered him up. He is spending a lot of time helping me in our vegetable garden, and we were intimate this morning - he was very loving. WIth us, his work has dominated our lives - he does nothing else, day and night - everything we do is tied up with his work, and we rarely find any time to go out - the new project of the vegetable garden is the first thing we have done together which has nothing to do with his work, that we can do together - (when we do work on the house, it is either my work or his work) - but the vegetable garden is something we work together on. It started out as my project, but I have welcomed all offers to help, and it is turning into such a positive thing. Its strange that I think (aside from the advice I have got here) the two things that have helped to keep us together are: playing games together (we can be together without talking about our feelings), and working on the garden together (we can be together and do something positive and not talk about our feelings). Things that keep us in each other's company in a non-confrontational way. So far...so good...Does your wife like gardening, ss?

If there is anything you think I could help with, just say...hope you have a good trip.

Take care,
LIR

Hi LIR

I think you did fine- i have lain awake at night worrying where my now ex was when he stayed out late without letting me know so I understand your feelings. I was never strong enough to let him know how I felt about ti so we never changed on the communication front. As a result even now over things that DO matter- ie finance and the children he doesn't communicate. You are right to ask for clear communication- in a non angry way.

Hope you are having a better day today
Jante

Thank you jante - it helped to hear that - I suppose I am still wondering how best to "handle" such situations. I have learned that it is important to 'set boundaries' in a respectful way, but it is also important to be honest about my feelings in a respectful way. I used to get mad and blow up out of frustration - trying to change his behaviour by making him feel guilty, I guess. I would say that MB has taught me that that is counter-productive, to say the least.

Although he may still see what I did the other night as "controlling", in that I asked him to handle such situations differently in future, I think I managed to be respectful (just), and I also said my piece and didn't belabour the point (let it blow up into a big fight). So on those points, I think I have improved a lot on how I approach things with H, even though he still has a lot of the same "issues".

Last night, he rang to say that he had been invited to go to someone's house that he wants to work with - another musician (not a woman) - he called to ask me if that was OK with me. I said yes it was OK, but that if he was going to be home late, could he please call me when he left, to let me know, so that I didn't worry. He did call, even though it was midnight, and I thanked him for calling me - and promptly went to sleep! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> So maybe this means we are both learning different, more respectful ways with each other. Hopefully, the tortoise will win this race in the end!

I take your point very much, jante - I was also like that - I never questioned him, or asked him to behave differently (except when I shouted at him) - I thought it was my place to trust him and that if I asked him to handle these things differently for me, that he would feel "trapped" - I reasoned that not asking him to be accountable for himself would keep him happy with me. It didn't, and it didn't prevent him from finding fault with me when it suited him, either. I am trying to learn to stand up for myself, to act as if I expect to be treated with respect. Well, I still do not take anything for granted. There are still a lot of changes that I wish would happen, but...I will keep persevering.

I hope you are OK, jante - I am thinking of both you and Lisa in London this week - I know it is a difficult time for each of you. (((jante))))

LIR

Hi LIR,

I have read over your last few pages again, and It brings to my mind something that I once heard at a party. Someone was telling a story about their difficult wife - at least they made the W sound difficult - and one of the other guests said " Oh, all that means is that you are married, just like the rest of us."

I think the troubles you are having mean you are married just like many others here. ( and by the way, the difficult wife story was NOT a reflection on you.)

We think of people in recovery as not having problems because they are trying, but my W and I still have problems, and I think it is natural in the world we live in. The trick is to continue to enjoy life, to thrive, not just survive.

There are signs that your H wants improvement. He didn't continue to mock you when you asked him to call, he called. That is improvement. I hope you praised him for the good feelings he created in your heart when he called to tell you where he was.

You are not crazy, things are not where they should be, but I can see a great deal of improvement in you personally, and in your relationship, and in your H's attitude.

I hope you don't mind if I say a little more about forgiveness - and apologies.

Lets pretend that you and your husband have a disagreement. ( I know that would never happen, but lets pretend. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )
Lets also say that what happens is 1% your fault, and 99% husbands fault. 1% is still 1%, and you still can work on that to make it better. If he isn't big enough to apologize, you can be, even for your small part. Often the one most at fault is also the one that isn't mature enough to begin reconciliation - and the one least at fault is, and can see what needs to happen and start it to happening.

I think this article helps explain how I feel about it.
http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway....is%20required%20to%20forgive.htm?fn=docu ment-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0

LIR, you don't sound bitter to me. You already forgiving like this article suggests we ought to be. You are - that's what I have been trying to tell you. If we take a diamond covered with coal, and chip away the coal, we are not creating the diamond, just uncovering it. If we refine gold, or silver, we are not creating a precious metal, just removing the impurities. I am not trying to tell you that you are doing things wrong, just help you continue your journey. You are a diamond, just like my W, just like Jante. I'm just chipping away at the coal. One of the most difficult things for me to learn was how to apologize when I didn't think it was my fault, but it has helped us become much closer. My W feels loved, and she almost always says " Oh, it was part my fault too." Someone has to start to do things a better way - you have the ability to do that. I could not make suggestions for you if I didn't think you were able to over come your own weaknesses and do them.

I do think your H needs to understand how you feel, and why you feel it. I believe you can continue to tell him in non confrontational ways. You will make mistakes. You will, but that's part of life, so don't beat yourself up about it. You won't fail at this - do you know that yet?

My W likes gardening, and sometimes we work together. Often I work with my 17 year old son in the garden, and she works with the girls in the house. I can work all day in 110 deg heat, she cannot. I was raised in the desert, she in southern Cal. I hope all your vegetables grow for you, it is too hot here to grow much of what you planted. Looks like we will get a good crop of peaches, and the boysenberries did well this year. Our yard is about 1/3 of an acre, and we crowded the stuff in.

If your H sometimes looks a little black, it's probably just coal dust from his W. Brush it off from him, and go on.

SS

<small>[ June 17, 2003, 04:43 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Hi there -

Thanks for the encouraging words, ss - yes, I think we have come back to the stage of more "normalcy" - which is just as you say - doesn't mean that we don't still have problems - you once said that learning about marriage here at MB raises our expectations - that it does, certainly, but even though I have not been able to interest my H in the concept of learning about marriage, let alone look at anything to do with MB, yes, as you say, he does show signs of wanting improvement, and trying. What I am finding is that the MB principles are goals to work towards, even though he doesn't know I am working towards those goals, and guidelines for me to monitor my own behaviour - especially when I am faced with "the old H".

For example, the other night, we walked up to the allotment, not to work, just to look, and YS disobeyed H, then argued with him vociferously - (H doesn't realize that his behaviour last year seriously affected YS's view of him as an authority figure - perhaps some of YS's bucking of authority is just normal though). Nevertheless, H was stern with YS and YS cried. I did not intervene - I didn't want to undermine H's authority, but I talked to YS afterwards. On our walk home, therefore, YS was angry and H was wound-up and being aggresively cheerful with me to deflect YS's bad humour - then H asked why I was bringing the zucchini seedlings back - I said 4 zucchini plants was enough and I was going to give the rest away - he said I should plant them anyway - never too many - I said I didn't think so - he started arguing with me and I asked him to calm down. Then he snarled at me that I was "infantile" - I was furious, but I didn't overreact - I just looked back at him angrily and said "That remark is SO offensive!". We continued our walk home in silence, I just turned off. When we got home, I put YS in the bath, and started washing the dishes. H came in and started relentlessly making jokes, trying to get my attention &#8211; finally I smiled &#8211; then he asked me about my roses in the garden, so I walked outside to look at them with him and started to talking to him about them. We stood there for a few minutes, then I reached out and touched his hand, and he held it. That restored the peace between us.

Inside, I wish that he would apologize for calling me &#8220;infantile&#8221; &#8211; but he hasn&#8217;t &#8211; he never does apologize specifically for the small things like that. I know he is sorry &#8211; worried would be the right word, as he desperately tries to recover lost ground by trying to make me laugh, but an apology would mean that he recognized his mistake and was genuinely sorry for it, not just anxious to get back on my good side while still managing to &#8220;win&#8221;. Lurking beneath the surface of H are still a lot of tensions which he projects on to me. Sure, I have faults &#8211; I&#8217;m sure a lot of coal dust goes flying! But it works both ways &#8211; the blackness he sees on me, is really his own coal dust. That&#8217;s how I see it.

Spacecase&#8217;s new thread is still very relevant to us &#8211; how much of H is just what he allows me to see &#8211; how much does he hide &#8211; what place honesty in our life together?
That is still a factor in our M, even though things are so much better now.

Gotta go &#8211; weeds are doing great, BTW! I love our garden, and I love that H is working so hard at it with me!

Cheers! LIR

Hello LIR,
I have had a hard time posting all that I would like lately. I hope you are well and Happy &#8211; and somehow I believe that you are today.

&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; even though I have not been able to interest my H in the concept of learning about marriage, let alone look at anything to do with MB, yes, as you say, he does show signs of wanting improvement, and trying. What I am finding is that the MB principles are goals to work towards, even though he doesn't know I am working towards those goals, and guidelines for me to monitor my own behaviour - especially when I am faced with "the old H".

I am glad that many times he gives you hope. It is something we all need.
I want you to understand that I don&#8217;t tell you to try this, or say that because I think you need a lot of help, or because I think things are your fault. Since you can&#8217;t change him, and you want to continue, I try and encourage you and continue to give you ideas. Please know that I say things to encourage, to keep your mind on things you have control over, and to give you ideas and perhaps different ways of saying things. I do not do it because you need someone to tell you what to do. You have enough problems without thinking that I am being hard on you too. I am sorry if I give the wrong impression sometimes. I kind of quit giving background because I was comfortable with how things were going, and I believe I made a mistake in how I said some things. I am going on about it now so you will understand that I believe I can do better, and I want to apologize if I made you wonder.

&#8230;&#8230;.. he started arguing with me and I asked him to calm down. Then he snarled at me that I was "infantile" - I was furious, but I didn't overreact - I just looked back at him angrily and said "That remark is SO offensive!". We continued our walk home in silence, I just turned off. When we got home, I put YS in the bath, and started washing the dishes. H came in and started relentlessly making jokes, trying to get my attention &#8211;

I believe this would be a good place to let him know your feelings. &#8211; he knows he hurt you, he is trying in his own way to make things better. Or at least to make sure they are not bad past repair.
&#8220;H, what you said hurt me, and it&#8217;s this kind of thing I have been trying to address in our relationship. After something like this happens, it takes me days to get over the bad feelings. If we can somehow get past needing to hurt each other, that would help our relationship. If you could say you were sorry for saying I was infantile, I would be much happier right now.&#8221;

You could go on:
&#8220; When I disagree with you, it doesn&#8217;t mean I don&#8217;t respect your judgment. You and I have different backgrounds, you are male, I am female. We see things differently sometimes. Lets agree that we can disagree and still respect and love each other. Lets agree that we can have different opinions but still be in love and treat each other like lovers. To me it&#8217;s kind of like food, we don&#8217;t always order the same things when we go out for dinner, but we respect the others choice and don&#8217;t look down on each other for that. I think we can do that about other things too and still have respect &#8211; does this make sense?&#8221;

He needs to know how you feel. I think you can safely preach respect. I can only think of one drawback. Some of his ideas on marriage need help, and if you preach tolerance, he may claim you need it on his ideas on marriage, privacy, and so on. I won&#8217;t go in to that part now, but there are ways to cope with that if he does it.

&#8211; finally I smiled &#8211; then he asked me about my roses in the garden, so I walked outside to look at them with him and started to talking to him about them. We stood there for a few minutes, then I reached out and touched his hand, and he held it. That restored the peace between us.

I keep wondering what to say here. Once I kind of came down hard on him, but I have left it alone since. I figure you don&#8217;t need me telling you what you see daily about him. You do know more about relationships, and it falls on you to use what you know to make peace. I still worry about what will happen long term if you continue to work on this yourself. I hope telling him your feelings and asking for help from him will get you some more hope and a little cooperation.

Please find something that he can give, that you feel he WILL give and ASK FOR IT so he can help you feel better about things. Your taker needs something too, if you search your mind you may be able to come up with an idea that will help.

Inside, I wish that he would apologize for calling me &#8220;infantile&#8221; &#8211; but he hasn&#8217;t &#8211; he never does apologize specifically for the small things like that. I know he is sorry &#8211; worried would be the right word, as he desperately tries to recover lost ground by trying to make me laugh, but an apology would mean that he recognized his mistake and was genuinely sorry for it, not just anxious to get back on my good side while still managing to &#8220;win&#8221;.

&#8220; H, this isn&#8217;t about who&#8217;s right or who&#8217;s wrong so much as it is that we ARE different and we look at things differently. It would really help me if you could tell me you are sorry for making me feel bad. I believe you do love me, I believe you do care about my feelings, but please tell me you care, because I need to hear it.&#8221;

I don&#8217;t know how much of this you can use &#8211; depends on how far along he is. If it helps, I used to say things like he says. It took me a long time to do it differently. I was sorry afterwards, ( after I would say something, and could tell she was hurt) but somehow I still said hurtful things. Some habits are hard to change, and you know that because you have done it ( changed habits) yourself.

Lurking beneath the surface of H are still a lot of tensions which he projects on to me.
I am beginning to believe all married people do that do some extent. I realize that knowing about it doesn&#8217;t get rid of the problem. This one will take a lot of personal growth ( not yours.) I am glad he has your help and your love, but I am sorry for the stress you are under.
Part of the problem is that you see everything now. You don&#8217;t have the normal reaction that lovers have ( love is blind.) It is hard to cope with those feelings because now problems are magnified in your mind when they occur. You wonder if it will ever end, if you will get a rest from the stress.

Sure, I have faults &#8211; I&#8217;m sure a lot of coal dust goes flying! But it works both ways &#8211; the blackness he sees on me, is really his own coal dust. That&#8217;s how I see it.

I agree. The bible covers the part really well about looking for our own faults first, and correcting them. 2long made a comment a short time ago, something to the effect that many Christians don&#8217;t live what they profess to believe. I have been working on this one for myself. That&#8217;s all I can do. I know you are working on it also, and I commend you for your success. I know you have had success with your improvement. Remember that sometimes I encourage you in your personal improvement because I know you can&#8217;t change him, and I want you to see some success. I know you will see personal success, I know you have seen it. I wish you weren&#8217;t so modest, so it would mean more to you. I&#8217;m smiling now, you should smile too, it&#8217;s good for us.

Spacecase&#8217;s new thread is still very relevant to us &#8211; how much of H is just what he allows me to see &#8211; how much does he hide &#8211; what place honesty in our life together?
That is still a factor in our M, even though things are so much better now.

Dr Harley is right, we should never really trust, we should make our lives be an open book. I wonder what changed your H&#8217;s mind about calling when he will be late. Usually it is a sign that they no longer have things to hide. I hope this is so.

Gotta go &#8211; weeds are doing great, BTW! I love our garden, and I love that H is working so hard at it with me!

For the first time in years, the weeds are loosing the battle in our yard. We have kept them down really well this year. Do you need any zucchini? I have lots!! Got my first tomato this last week, and they should be coming along pretty regular now.

Remember your blessings. You have many. I remember part of a song we used to sing a lot when I was younger.

Count your many blessings, name them one by one.
Count your many blessings, see what God has done.

I have sometimes been tempted to make a list of my W&#8217;s faults so she can work on them. I have never done it, but I have made a list of her virtues and shared that with her. She asked me, &#8220;If I do so many things right, how come you sometimes get angry with me.&#8221; The answer of course is that she still does some things wrong, and that I am very imperfect.

I hope you have more good days than bad. I want you to know that I try and support you, and when you read my posts, if you think I am being hard on you, then you should ask me what I meant, because if you think I am being hard on you, it didn&#8217;t come across correctly. If that part changes, I&#8217;ll be sure and let you know.

SS

<small>[ June 26, 2003, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Hello ss -

Thanks for the long thoughts - you seem concerned that you may have upset me with something you said - please know that I have never taken offence at anything you have said - and I do understand about the "working on me" part - this is one area where I think I have really grown - I used to be so upset by my H's behaviour and going around in circles with what I thought he SHOULD be doing, feeling, etc and wasn't (I can still do this a little) - it's what I have learned from MB, and about co-dependency, that has taught me that I need help, too, specifically in gaining confidence in myself so that I don't give in to the tendency to be co-dependent. Sometimes I think I am being diplomatic when I'm actually being as blunt as a flying mallet! LOL But then, there are merits in being able to call a spade a spade, too! Please know that I do understand and appreciate that you have been trying to help me, which has a knock-on chance of helping the marriage. I can't change him, but I can help me, and I can learn different habits. I am still frightened of opening up to my H in the way that you suggested - whenever I do that, I get it thrown back at me - and like I said, he can still flare up with the old nastiness, so I am still very cautious here.

I am really pressed for time and would like to post more, but I can't right now. Lots of things have been happening, and I have a lot of thoughts about things - our R, my H, and myself, and MB, but I will have to get to those another day. My MIL is very sick - she has been in the hospital for 4 weeks and has started failing rapidly. My H flew to visit this last week for 3 days and said that he didn't recognize her at first - this brings up a lot for my H, as you can imagine. But on Friday, the doctor finally came through with some conclusive news - she has had a full body scan which shows no sign of cancer anywhere, and he thinks she has a vascular condition called vasculitis (never heard of it, but there's a John Hopkins Center devoted to it apparently) - so they were going to zap her with a huge dose of steroids this w/end, and he said they would be able to tell by the end of the weekend whether or not she will pull through (she's 80). As of last night, she was more alert and talking again, but she is confused about time, and seems to be living in the past (dementia). So you can see, things have been quite intense and this is ongoing.

So far, my H has been turning to me for emotional support. He has called a lot while he was gone, and has suggested we take that holiday to Barcelona which I have wanted to do for two years. He has talked to me quite about, as best he can - as I know myself, it is a terribly painful thing to have to stand by while someone as close to you as mother/brother suffers continuously. He was desperate to come home from his trip to visit her. I only hope that I am giving him enough support and not disappointing him.

One thing that has been happening is he rings his father every evening for a 'status report'. And while he was visiting, he stayed with his father. A lot of my support for him consists of my listening to him after he gets off the phone with his father. His father, of course, is very stressed - there are so many things to say - his father has not treated his mother well in many ways, especially in caring for her health - so her poor health is partly due to the dynamics of their R and also, of their generation - "pull your socks up and get on with it, don't complain" - stiff upper lip attitude. But H is having to deal compassionately with his dad every day, and I think he is succeeding very well - he is being very understanding. However, he is also learning - he said one night that his dad is so difficult - stroppy - he said "he takes even my innocent questions as a challenge and refuses to talk - he suddenly flares up like a match with no warning - its impossible to talk to him about the simplest things". I put my arm around him and hugged him and said "you can be a bit that way, too" - I said it because I could tell that as soon as the words were out of his mouth he knew that he was that way, too - so I thought it was the right thing, to tell him, with my arm around him. But I hugged him as I said it, and I said "but I still love you, if that helps any", and he pulled my arm around him and said "yes, I know I can be that way, too - and yes, it does help".

So, you know, babysteps, bigsteps for both of us.

I've gotta go, but just wanted to let you know that you do help and I am glad that you still check in with me. Garden is doing great - weeds are doing great! Lettuces are huge! LOL

LIR

P.S. I wonder what happened to the formatting of my post - it seems to have gone haywire!! Maybe the next time I post, I will start a new one.

<small>[ June 30, 2003, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>