matti--im glad to hear the news.

how is he gonna feel about you checking everything he tells you for awhile. obviously he has a lot to rebuild in the trust area. is he gonna be able to provide you proof willingly to back up what he tells you. have you discussed what you will need from him? accounting for time and money.

i will pray for you and good luck chica!

d_rose

Thank you! I will continue praying for your M to go well and keep on recovering.

nikko

Thank you! We have already talked about this and like I said he is saying the right words. He knows he has a hard long road in front of us, and that it's not going to be easy. He even invited me to check up, that I must do that to trust him again. That his actions will spak louder than his words... What I mean is that he is willing!

Also, we already talked about this before and he acknowledge we are going to need counseling, for whatever time it takes. He already know the information on some group counseling here and I'm going to look for another counselor or group also.

Now all points in the right path. We just have to walk, run, jump, crawl.... on it.

I trust God will tell us and guide us on how to.

I will keep posting here a lot if things start to work out (towards recovery), I will need the help and guidance of this forum, also, besides the counseling, my praying and yours too, and a great deal of serenity, wich I'm trying to get... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thank you!

One year ago, my M was in good shape, or so I thought.
Tomorrow will mark a day since I found out and since I separated. To tell the truth I'm not feeling very well right now.. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> maybe is the date, it should be.
I got many reasons to be happy now and I know that, so if this post turn to be a bit depressing well, please be tolerant with me today <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

There is a bit difference in between what I want, and what I'm getting, or maybe I'm having what I want, just not the way I want it. And yes I know I can't control things, but I can control how to react to those and what to accept and what not to...

As you know, H and I are trying to recover and rebuild, our way, maybe not the best way, bue each one is different...
We are trying to talk and feel each other harder this time, to really listen. But a few things are happening that I don't like.
I know I can't fully understand the fog and the thrill that he had that cause all the hurt since I didn't had the A, but he also can't understand the treason and hurt I felt because of him and his actions. So we are in a very tough spot, as many of you are, were or will be.

Don't get me wrong, I think my H is trying really hard to become the man I loved and even better. He is trying as much as he can to be accountable for all his time, calls 6 to 8 times a day, he comes home very night, when he go to his parents he always calls as soon as he arrives there to tel me he arrived safely, I had problems that required man help at home and he has been there no matter what (also DS is a huge need for him), he is trying to spend more and more time with me, have fun, he moved his ab table and weights to the home in a room that used to be his computer room, and now we are together again in the same computer room, on Valentine's he gave me his password of his accounts, and he did a STD test as I requested (I Still don't got the results) all that as a surprise and as a gift for that day, he always ask how I feel and on the countrary althought I know when I said to him how I feel, wich sometimes is not that good (God is very hard to trust again), he doesn't run anymore, and he tell me he feel hurt that he hurted me that much, so he is caring... All those are good things for me, things I need and things he is doing at his own pace so kudos for him on that I know it has not been easy...

Now the not so good part, are things that I can't overcome... Like him going out to lunch with co-workers (female), and him not wanting to understand that is this beahvior continues, he can have another A, I mean he is not protecting himself or our M for this to happen again. Last night I told him I was worried for things like that, and he told me he understood, and he is going to do it my way... meaning not going out... but well I don't want to educate him, how can he be this naive regarding things like that? And also I don't want to, if I impose my way, his taker is going to scream big time in the future, I don't want to impose, I WANT POJA!

Also, today, I activated my new debit card, and on this one, it shows both of our accounts. In the old one it only showed our regular account, and I didn't wanted to look for the password or anything on it. Well I found out H made a deposit on that other account, the one I didn't have "access" because I didn't want. When I asked him about it, he told me that is because you told me we owe too much to the credit cards and that was for paying them, I said where the money came from? he told me out of his severance (don't know a better word to define it), I told him, that it was not necesary, he told me he didn't wanted to worry me with it (FS is a need for me, not as much as before, but still on my top 3), I told him, that I'm not worried as before for it, we just had to made a plan on how to pay them and that was it, what I was worried, was on seeing at the money there, and he have not told me about, and that I didn't wanted any more surprises... Well he understood and we will see...

He is having low times because he knows I'm hurt, but a good thing he also told me last night, is that he knows is going to be hard when we are together, that he knows that we are just talking and dating but not together, and that he is going to try really hard, that he knows that a long time is going to pass until I feel something again for him, well that helped hear him saying that, cause right now I'm very defensive still. I mean trust can not build up for me in one day, and when things like those happen, they don't help at all.

I just want to fell loved and cared again. That is all I want now...
There are times I don't want to know about this and just hide under a rock... but I'm typing here...
I know this too shall pass, just having a not so good day today <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

im sorry you are having a painful day. i get them too.

stay strong in your boundries and dont feel guilty for having them. he did the damage that caused you to feel this way---part of the consequences. it will be a long road but i believe that no matter which way your marriage goes---you are stronger and wiser and can handle anything!

i would be cautious with him not understanding your pain.....that scares me.

Hi nikko

Yes I think they are part of the proccess. Those painful days and I don't think they are going to dissapear at all, just become appart. turned out the next day on dday anniversary I didn't saw H becase he was on the MBA, but I didn't had such a bad time that day.

Another thing I would like to add here, is that he is not running or not understanding from my pain. But when I get down, he is hurt to see me that way. I better talk for myself here and see if I can clear up this. I understand his fog. But I didn't live it, so I can't really feel like he did. Well that is not completely truth, since when we were dating back 11 or 12 years I was in the fog for him, maybe I forgot that feeling heheh you know what I mean?

Anyway, I can understand, but I can not fell what he is feeling I guess it's the same for him. Anyway I would love to feel thru his heart and I would love he would do the same for me. Maybe impossible I don't know but that would be one of my goals.

Thank you for answering my friend
Take good care!

Matilde..

Blessings to you.

Maybe take a step back…and look at the bigger picture…

You are one year from D-day…and what looks like official recovery.
That is such great news…and lets just throw out there for the heck of it that real recovery takes two years…ugghhh I know..

This is how I see an affair…rather than the rollercoaster ride I see affairs more as a rafting trip. Both of you in this raft together going along…
Usually prior to an affair somewhat status quo..not always rowing together but still in the same raft plugging along.

Then the affair and D-day…and damn you hit a set of rapids like you have seen or experienced before. And find yourselves together in a raft going no where fast. The rapids are like the emotions scary, unknown,
Each person rowing in different directions Each yelling commands on how to get through these waters, and neither able to hear a word the other one is saying.

The most amazing thing about whitewater rafting is that the power that each rower holds in their own hands is amazing. That these rapids seem stronger and way more powerful than the pitiful wooden oar gripped tightly in your hand. The overwhelming urge to let go and quit paddling is strong. And yet somehow theses oars, the ability to keep padding can and do overcome these rapids.

One thing that floored me about rafting is that when you see that your raft is heading for a big rock…and it appears that you are going to smash in it. Your body instinctively tells you to quit paddling lean away from the rock and prepare for impact. Do this though and everyone in the raft is..DUMPED…and then you are in trouble. And you are on your own till the river becomes forgiving enough to release you.
And here’s where the insanity of doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result comes to light. Cause I can’t tell you how many times I got my butt dumped in the cold water because I pulled away and quit paddling. And even stupid enough to be surprised each time it happened over and over again.

The way to beat that rock is against human instinct. You keep paddling and you paddle hard right towards that rock. And even more scary you lean yourself right into that rock. And just when you think you are insane for doing this the current grabs your raft and your weight and pulls you right around that rock.
The other thing that has to be in place also is for everyone in the raft to believe enough in keep paddling and lean towards the rock.

AMAZNG it is. And so somewhere in the turmoil of the affair you begin to get the feel for these rapids and you begin to believe in the power you hold in you and in your oars.

Takes a lot of emotions to get through those rapids. Feel a lot of different things fear, excitement, and then powerful and in control, extreme fatigue

That’s what navigating through plan a and b seems to be like to me. And that transition that occurs that talks of true recovery process is that you both are rowing together. Some, perhaps for the first time ever in their marriage. And you are listening, and beginning to believe that other insane person holding on to their oar telling you to head for that rock and paddle together and we will get around it.

And now here you are Matilde…you did all that. You rowed your heart out. And at some point you each decided to try to row together...

And while you think that should have been the hardest and that you have nothing left in you…the truth is the murky dark waters of recovery can be harder and more scary than those emotional rapids.

the recovery water in the distance appear calm and soothing compared to rapids. But to me these waters hold lots of hidden bumps and dangers. And even when paddling together hitting a submerged rock or limb is scary stuff.
And sometimes the fear of what is unknown after such an emotional expense on the rapids seems more than we can take..

When you don’t see it coming it freaks you out a bit. It is at these time hitting the bumps that it is so easy to revert back to old patterns of blame. Mistrust. (how could you have let us hit that rock?)

AND the urge to take the oar and whack your spouse in the temporal lobe can be overwhelming at times. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Navigating these waters takes good communication skills. Takes a balance of each one taking lead in missing that rock under there. Or this rock over there.
One person choosing NOT to paddle can sabotage the whole raft.

Matilde it is not educating to tell your spouse about your fears about his lunches. It may be the first time ever that he is really HEARING your fears. And his wanting to do this should not be seen as you educating or as some weakness in him for not coming to this conclusion on his own.

I can’t tell you how many people told me to keep paddling towards that huge ugly boulder and lean in to the huge ugly boulder. And when I finally listened and did what they said. Well I didn’t get my butt and my fellow rafters butt dumped in the cold river. Your husband may be for the first time keeping his butt dry...even when he says I will do it your way....he's doing it because he wants to stay in the raft with you...

but I think you and he are on the right track...
I think beyond these murky creepy waters of recovery is a place where you both get to row in the sunlight.

I think surprises in recovery are inevetible. I think you can see and focus on the rough and bad ones...but be very wary you don't miss the good surprises...
That you don't forget to pat your fellow rower on the head...(AGAIN I did not say HIT your fellow rower on the head <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

I see his agreeing to no lunch with the ladies as a good thing...you see it as bad...

becareful you don't dump your own butt back in that cold water.

Why don't you pack him a favorite lunch for him some day next week...with lots of treats and love notes...celebrate his decision with no lunch out with the girls....
or you take him to lunch....

Or even a 'quickie lunch"... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />


Sorry for the cheesy post...
ARK

Matilde, I have seen your post and I understand you are in Venezuela. I am in a similar situation such as yours. It has been almost a year for me since D-day. I have nightmares of her with the OM and even when awake I have to fight off images of the two of them. It makes me sick to think of what she did and that keeps me from getting close to her.
I do not know how to continue to forgive. There are many things that I would have to erase from my mind. I posted in this forum and you may see there some of those things. During the affair she told me the worst possible insults a person can say to a spouse and treated me horrible to the point that she considered me a curse in her life. I have been hurting because I am very confused. I forgave many things without ever letting her know how badly I was hurt and I feel that caused her not to have respect for me. Since the OM is someone from her past, I wonder whether she has been secretely carrying those feelings during our marriage. What I have not been able to get is the Latin perspective or thoughts. Do you consider that you are beginning to feel normal again after 1 year? How would a man in Venezuela handle a similar situation?

^Ark^ thank you for your post

I really liked the rafting analogy

A few things I would like to comment on...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Maybe take a step back…and look at the bigger picture…
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well that is why I'm still here, somehow, I was like ready to give up this M, and God gave my H some sense back and that made me look at the big picture again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You are one year from D-day…and what looks like official recovery.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well here is the deal, it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, but still all the actions doesn't imply it's a duck. Maybe he is transforming into a duck again, and I know that is part of my problem, since in the past I lived this and I found out again he has not ended it... This time feels different for sure, but I don't want to live the insanity concept all over again. I think is more like a boundaries issue. I'm protecting myself. I don't want to be hurt further if I can. On that issue, I think the only way would be to follow my own rule on protection.

Your post is very good ark, I was pointed at this by a friend, and turned out H was with his computer by my side. I thought he was doing a presentation he has to deliver tomorrow to his boss, but he was reading the same post, wich bringed an interesting conversation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And while you think that should have been the hardest and that you have nothing left in you…the truth is the murky dark waters of recovery can be harder and more scary than those emotional rapids.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When I read this one I thought UGH! I know it's true, I still don't know if we are on recovery yet, since for that we have to be together I was told. Anyway, I certanly understand what you are telling me, just yesterday, I had a hard week regarding home repairs, and H was not here because of the MBA helping. Well, over the phone, and really tired about it, I LB big time on him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> yes I'm not proud that was the old me, but an hour after that, I called him back and said I was sorry. That was the new me and my 12 steps program into action. I'm only telling you this, because for me this illustrates the point very clearly. Yes complete change is hard and scary!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When you don’t see it coming it freaks you out a bit. It is at these time hitting the bumps that it is so easy to revert back to old patterns of blame. Mistrust. (how could you have let us hit that rock?)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mistrust... Well ^Ark^. I don't know still how to deal with it. I mean a part of me want to trust, but after several years on lying (not just the A, but many things), this is a hard issue for us. That much that honesty became my top need. Without it we can not build anything, I realized that a while ago. H is trying really hard to being honest, and I haven't found out lies on action, more like lies on ommision, like the account stuff. Those are not easy to take, and I wonder if he has a problem being an open book. I mean what is wrong with it?. The other side of me is telling me ok go on, trust again, what is the worse that can happen? I already got it right? but geee this hurted to much to just forgive that easy and the self perserving me, doesn't want to live this again. I know I'm not in control, and I can't stop it from happening again. But for sure I can act differently and protect myself, I don't think I will survive another A, not because I'll die or something, but because I will just plain leave. I appreciate too much the small amount of peace and serenity I have gained and I'm planing to grow on that to return to that insanity.

As long as we head and sail in the same boat, to the same direction I think I can stand it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> AND the urge to take the oar and whack your spouse in the temporal lobe can be overwhelming at times. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . Well yes! that has happened to me several times, but since I'm also human I bet that has happened to H also! We have to deal with those feelings, and try to control us before the urge gets there I guess would be the best approach. Prevention...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Navigating these waters takes good communication skills. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh boy, this is going to be hard for me. A thing I must accept and I'm not proud at all is that we didn't had good communication before. He didn't talk and I didn't listened , what a team huh? I sometimes wonder how we made it this far and still even cared for each other. The good part, is that we are trying now and we identifyed that. But still we need a counselor for those sore spots, that we didn't resolved in the past and to be perfectly frank I don't think we can do it without. At least not me. I got no new views on some isues, and I guess H also hasn't. So a good negotiator in between would be great.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Matilde it is not educating to tell your spouse about your fears about his lunches. It may be the first time ever that he is really HEARING your fears. And his wanting to do this should not be seen as you educating or as some weakness in him for not coming to this conclusion on his own. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have to think about this. Again communication. I were always an open book or so I thought, and I'm having a hard time on what to tell him or not. I fully understand what you are telling me. Somehow this is becoming very difficult to me. I guess I'm trying to listen this time instead of talking. I don't really know I have to give this further thinking... the deep kind one...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I see his agreeing to no lunch with the ladies as a good thing...you see it as bad... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well ^Ark^ that is also another thing that I'm trying to change to see the while wall not the black spot if you know what I mean. I was very negative in my thinking. This days, I'm trying to see the glass half full, the white wall and among all, give thanks to God for every tiny detail that makes me happy and I give for granted. I have steps back, but is a personal struggle that is becomming to be easier each day. Thanks for the reminder I really appreciate it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Why don't you pack him a favorite lunch for him some day next week...with lots of treats and love notes...celebrate his decision with no lunch out with the girls....
or you take him to lunch....

Or even a 'quickie lunch"...


Sorry for the cheesy post... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I might be some day, just have to think a way to deal with it and my job hehehe <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

Not cheesy at all ^Ark^, I really loved it and it made me think, and laugh <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Thank you for it!!!

___________

Why me?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am in a similar situation such as yours. It has been almost a year for me since D-day. I have nightmares of her with the OM and even when awake I have to fight off images of the two of them. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not familiar with your story, but regarding we are in the same spot... hummm I don't know. I don't got images of them together thank God because I don't know OW and H has still hadn't disclossed the whole A issue. I mean the details, and I don't know if I want to know. What hits me is the times when H is not here, and I wonder if he is with her, but I can't form any movies in my head since as I explained I don't know her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It makes me sick to think of what she did and that keeps me from getting close to her.
I do not know how to continue to forgive. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Look for counseling, church, read, and do other things. You need to keep your mind busy besides the hurt and images.

Why me? I think that the things that would help you most to overcome all this, is your wife. Her actions, but also you have to let go. If she demostrates she wants to work on this. Let her so and appreciate that. I guess you are still M, right? So why you waited a year like me? To recover or to see pictures the rest of your life? I know is not easy! Tell me about it! But her actions and yours are the ones that are going to make the new M. Let me put it this way. If she were still into the A you wouldn't be recovering, but also if you were not willing to forgive and learn and grow, and keep LBing with this thinking, that without doubt will put a dent in her resolve to recover, you would not recover either.

Forget what she told you while she was into the A, haven't you heard an alien took her head? It was not her! Hard to understand, but look at that like she was on drugs. It wouldn't be her also right? just the drugs talking. Well into the A, it was the fog talking. What you need from her is true repenance I guess, and I don't know if you had it. One day at a time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What I have not been able to get is the Latin perspective or thoughts. Do you consider that you are beginning to feel normal again after 1 year? How would a man in Venezuela handle a similar situation? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Latin perspective? what it does has to do with anything? I think the perspective and the hurt is the same all over! Unless you live in a country were polygamy (sp) is allowed.
I'm starting to feel me again after a year THANK GOD!!!
And about the man in Vzla handling this I don't got a clue I'm a women.

Take care

Matilde...

look there is no doubt that you know him better than me..and that it is easy for me to sit North of you on my computer and say trust him....matilde...trust him...I'am not...and I hopefully won't...

Without it we can not build anything, I realized that a while ago. H is trying really hard to being honest, and I haven't found out lies on action, more like lies on ommision, like the account stuff. Those are not easy to take, and I wonder if he has a problem being an open book. I mean what is wrong with it?. The other side of me is telling me ok go on, trust again, what is the worse that can happen?

The thing perhaps you should look at is that when someone like your husband "lied" about many things....to them...it is difficult to see these things as lies....that it is sooo natural sooo much a part of communication...that they may not even be able to see where it is lying...especially lies of ommission..

His actions in moving money was his attempt to meet your financial support...you see the part where he moved money without telling you...

did he lie about that??

I don't know matilde...I am not you or he...
so perhaps maybe you both should address the environment in which to discuss these things....
that he may find it difficult to break his patterns especially those he has never viewed as actual lies...just actions to get something done or obtained....

what would be scary if you two end in a power struggle over something like the money...

he moved it to meet your financial needs his intentions were good...he did not tell you he moved the money...

You two need to create an environment that is safe to be able to see both the really good in this act...and see the acts that can be felt as untrusting...

You need to figure out how each of you can talk about these issues and see if they can't be learning experiences...and not power struggles that leave both of you confused and hurt....

believe me if HE posted here...I would be placing much more onus on him...but you started this.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

The one thing I would say is that even in my marriage with no infidelity in it...I have had to learn to bring the thought and the act of cherishing my husband as a person....in this world...worthy of basic respect...

It was a sort of change at first...now it is more natural...but in the middle of the crap..the bad days...the stress ..the day to day crap...and I too was once very negative...and my husband warned of self fullfilling phrophecies many years ago early in marriage...

Still it is easiest to lash at him...and dump on him...so much of that is "normal"..but it's not right...

Keeping the thought of cherishing my husband as a child of God....entitled to be on this planet and loved by Him....
helps me keep from LBing when neither of us is quite up to paddling together....
I have changed my thoughts on my interactions with him and have decided I have no more right to call him names or be cruel when communicating with him as I do with a good friend...


It has really shifted my attitude....
MINE...

and we still bicker and get mad and all that normal stuff...we just don't hit eachother with our paddles so much anymore....

I know it's hard...
I know there is a long history...
but like I said for the first time both of you may be trying to keep your butts dry...and in a raft it only works when both are trying...

blessings to you and yours...
ARK
besides I never said you couldn't tap him with your oar on the head....... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ February 22, 2004, 06:37 AM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>

Matilde:
You make excellent points and I agree with most of what you say. Since you are in Vzla. let me switch to Sp. Nosotros somos de alla y venimos de una epoca cuando la pureza en el matrimonio era valuada por encima de todo. Ella siempre decia que jamas perdonaria una traicion. Lo cual yo entendia pero no me preocupaba porque en mi mente lo tenia muy claro que uno jamas hace tal dan~o al ser amado. Para mi ella lo era todo pero el asunto ese lo cambio todo. Ella si dice sentir arrepentimiento pero creo que despues q' se dio de cuenta q' se burlaron de ella. Honestamente no se q' promesas le habra hecho el porque ella no dice nada. Pero al yo hablar con el, el fue muy claro al decir que para el fue solo una aventura mas pero que ella lo inicio y sus actitudes no eran nada decorosas (eso duele oirlo). En cierto modo ella si dijo que tubo gran culpa y q' era quien lo empezo a llamar.
Perdon por el comentario de q puede pensar un hombre en latinoamerica, tengo en claro que eres una dama. Mi problema es que vivimos fuera de latinoamerica en una sociedad muy permisiva donde todo es valido y el perdon es parte de todo. Pero siendo criados alla, nuestro punto de referencia es esa cultura. Antes de esto, un familiar femenino q paso por eso al preguntarle porque toleraba esas cosas, respondio "una es mujer y tiene que ignorar muchas cosas". Eso me dio tristeza. Pienso que el honor y el respeto no reconocen genero y son cosas que se ganan.
En consejeria, lo primero que oi es perdon, cosa que ya he practicado en varias ocasiones con ella por situaciones parecidas que no llegaron a lo fisico y yo le creo. Con respecto al abuso e insultos, no ha sido solo durante su asunto sino ocurria desde antes pero se acentuo mas.
Mi pregunta original era con respecto a su opinion de como reaccionaria un hombre en Vzla. Entiendo que el dolor que se siente es muy grande donde sea sin importar raza, religion o cultura (con exepcion de culturas poligamicas).

Mi experiencia con consejeros ha sido frustrante. Primero vimos a un hombre el cual lo primero que hizo fue decir que si ella hizo eso, yo tenia la culpa (Que absurdo!). Pienso que he sido un buen esposo, atento, amoroso, de hogar, y sin pasado oscuro. El segundo fue una mujer de conviccion cristiana, y la filosofia es voltear la otra mejilla. Total que quede en las mismas.

Espero que tu situacion mejore lo cual parece estar ocurriendo. Saludos.

OH CRAP---MY SPANGLISH AINT THAT GOOD!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Nikko, I am sorry. It was meant for Matilde since there were some specific questions and comments to her suggestions. I guess I am trying to get help from her rather than offer useful advice since it seems she is well on her way to recovery, which I hope happens.

^Ark^

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> look there is no doubt that you know him better than me..and that it is easy for me to sit North of you on my computer and say trust him....matilde...trust him...I'am not...and I hopefully won't...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well sometimes I wonder if I really know my H, like I said, I laked a LOT of listening, but I'm willing to now. I don't know were it would lead us, but as you said as long as we both are on the same boat and paddling to the same goal things are going to be better I hope.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The thing perhaps you should look at is that when someone like your husband "lied" about many things....to them...it is difficult to see these things as lies....that it is sooo natural sooo much a part of communication...that they may not even be able to see where it is lying...especially lies of ommission..
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can certainly understand this, and that is why I'm asking why's now. He asked for the transfer, but he was at his MBA and he didn't spected the money so soon. and between there and his time with me he hadn't got much time to tell me about it, he didn't even knew the money was there.
Yes I came to understand that the transfer was made to meet my need for FS, but since as you know into the A a lot of transactions were made without my knowledge and well... it's hard to trust after that. So a lot of things to ponder here, but I think is great you pointed that out in that way. Maybe it's my own negativism that thinks bad, but some of it I think is justified.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> so perhaps maybe you both should address the environment in which to discuss these things....
that he may find it difficult to break his patterns especially those he has never viewed as actual lies...just actions to get something done or obtained....
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">^Ark^ I'm really trying to create those enviroments, that much so, that we have POJA on when to talk, not too late when we are tired, or upset, or hungry. Well for starters I think is good. And about your point, yes I tend to think things too much, my H is a doer, just get the things done and keep on going.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> what would be scary if you two end in a power struggle over something like the money...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In that aspect, I was blessed with him not to be selfish with the money, he is a giver on that. But I'm a saver hehehe. That had made some sore spots in our relationship, and that is one of the issues I think we need the counselor on.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You need to figure out how each of you can talk about these issues and see if they can't be learning experiences...and not power struggles that leave both of you confused and hurt.... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are soooooo right on this ^Ark^, until now, I been a failure regarding this topic. It has been more like a power struggle on my part, as I said, I'm a saver and I plan the economics of this home. And I think even if my H never fought about it, whenever he chooses to do something he did it even if we talked about doing something different. So in that much yes, it has become a power struggle. Not that I want that, I want what would be best for us as a family. But like I said, I have not been successfull at ALL on this. And this is one of the isues I have not learned new or different ways to deal on. So I think we need a counselor, at least I need one on how to deal with it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> believe me if HE posted here...I would be placing much more onus on him...but you started this....

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One can only dream LOL!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The one thing I would say is that even in my marriage with no infidelity in it...I have had to learn to bring the thought and the act of cherishing my husband as a person....in this world...worthy of basic respect... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">^Ark^ Really I swear I think I cherised my H as a person, I might be wrong and I would have to ask him if he feels this way, but I most of the time respected him as a person even with his flaws. I think he lost respect on me which is different <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , trying to get that back.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Keeping the thought of cherishing my husband as a child of God....entitled to be on this planet and loved by Him....
helps me keep from LBing when neither of us is quite up to paddling together....
I have changed my thoughts on my interactions with him and have decided I have no more right to call him names or be cruel when communicating with him as I do with a good friend...


It has really shifted my attitude....
MINE...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's hard to change huh? Well I'm trying as hard as I can. sometimes I slip into my old self, but I'm a WIP (work in rogress), I certainly understood the only thing you can change is yourself. If after that, we don't like each other, well we agreed to get sepparate ways. But so far so good <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> but like I said for the first time both of you may be trying to keep your butts dry...and in a raft it only works when both are trying... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I centainly hope that, that is why I'm still here. God will tell.

Blessing to you and yours too ^Ark^. Thank you!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> besides I never said you couldn't tap him with your oar on the head....... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LOL I'm trying really hard sometimes not to!, besides that doesn't lead to anything!

Take good care <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

____________


Why me? I'm posting a new thread for you here on GQ2


____________

nikko! chica! what is the matter with you!, clean the dust on those spanish books you had! heheh joking, I'm going to answer to him on a new thread, and hope you and all could get about he was asking on spanish so he can get help from everyone here.

How is it going with you? How is Maximus? did he eated half the home and the sleepers? LOL!

Take good care my friend

This last 3 days had been wonderful days. We had some sort of mini-vacation since is carnival holiday here and had 4 full free days from work.

H and I have spent quality time together. We have share time here together, have done things at home, went to the movies, to a cafe, talked a lot and caring for each other.

Two good things happened last night. A while ago, I set up some boundaries for myself, and asked him to do among other things to get a STD test. H did that on valentine's as my present of that day, and also he gave his passwords on email accounts. Last night, we went to a movie, and after that we just drove in the car and talked while he was driving. On one of the topics I bringed on, was trust and actions. I told him, it was good he did the test, but until I got the results, I couldn't be sure. This has much to do with past bahaviors we had. I asked H a thing which was important to me, some times he did, but the end result I didn't saw because he didn't finished it. Like the STD results, so I couldn't really tell. That led us as life happen to have another "task" and another until we had this huge task list of unfinished bussineses. That for us, only led to calls of asking if we have done the things, and were the answer was not, we build up resentment. This happened both ways.
Anyway, I was talking to him about this, and to illustrate my point, I bringed back the STD test results. Wich he did but I haven't got the proof. It turned out, he drove to the clinic to get them. It was like 9 pm and I never tought they were going to give at that time and less in a holiday. H told me well we got nothing to loose right? Let's find out. So he went out and yes! he have done them, and they gived him the results <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . He is ok, thank God. Many good things came out of it. We acknowledge the fact, that sometimes what is important for one, is not on the priorities list for the other, so we agreed that if that was the case, we should bring it to the attention to the other in a not LB way.

Also I think, we are changing our way of talking. Listening to the other, and picking up a safe enviroment to do it which is a very good change.

Also, last night, in the cafe, I asked H some questions about the A. I did, because I needed to know a few things and didn't wanted this black box unopened into our relationship. Most of them were regarding the SF deppartment, because the emotional part I think I already "knew" what happened. Those questions were not easy to ask, and I could tell his answers were not easy to tell and to be heard. But I feel a weight out of my shoulders. I don't think I want to know much more about it at this point. For sure in the future there are going to be small points to clear out, but the hardest need to know from me, have been filled. I don't know if that is good, or not, but been reading MB for a year now I don't think it can do me much good listening all the gory details, I just don't see any good in that.

Another of the topics we talked about last night, was his possible return home, and why still he has not, and this is were I need help.

We ended up in three points.

One was his fear of comming home, and that if we had a set back (meaning LB) we couldn't deal with it, ending this in him going out again, and after that he was not so sure he wanted to come back ever. He told me he feel we need a lot more of time and conversations to be able to deal with it. Also we said, that for being able to achive that, a counselor would help us on that. The point is, we both know we need one, but in the other hand we have not done the steps towards looking for one. I said we better do because he or she was not going to knock on our door by divine intervention. On my side, I'm going to start asking again for one. One we both feel good in. Just about 5 days ago, I found out my H didn't liked the one we were going, because he felt, he (my H) spent half the time there defending myself... (isn't he cute? I haven't felt that way) for sure I thought he was too manly driven, but I didn't felt attacked.

Also, a good point he said, was that he wanted this to feel like home again. And well I need help on that.

What I can do to make my H feel this his home again?

Regarding this, I have been trying to change. In the past I been a lousy house keeper, and not only that, but if he wanted to fix something, I didn't, so I was not filling that DS need of his. Also if he did fix a thing, not much time passed for me not to get it bad, I'm very disorganized person. My changes until now are letting him be and fix whatever he thinks need fixing, and trying to mantain the spaces he did clean of dissorder. This involves a lot of effort from me. Yes I'm not proud of telling this, but this is how I'm and I'm trying to change that.

But is not enough. So what other advices you think are good for me to follow in making my H feel this home again??

Thank you

<small>[ February 24, 2004, 07:34 AM: Message edited by: matilde ]</small>

matilde---have you asked what he needs for it to be HOME to him again?

i ask this because up till recently i havent felt like this was home. i didnt feel safe, and that was the problem. i felt like the safety of this place, my home, was taken from me. it was.

however with the changes hubby has made lately, i am feeling much safer and more like this is my refuge, not hiding place.

ask him. and by the way---i am a horrible housekeeper---have allways hated it. our solution was some else doing it 2 times a month. i keep up in between and she does all the hard stuff. it really isnt as expensive as most think, and if this really is a sticking point for the two of you, maybe it is something to discuss.

matilde,

Have you tried www.flylady.com yet? Helps me a lot.

Perhaps we should get together with Nikko and start an "accountability" program with each other. Slobs Anonymous. Each day we post what we have and haven't done.

Here's one thing my H loves. I have at least one room clean that we can hang out and relax in during the evening. We light candles, listen to music, and talk. We generally drink wine or tea as well. It's wonderful. We did this the other night, even though the baby wouldn't go to sleep and we were taking turns holding her. All three of us ended up dancing. He is SO cute with her. Just having that one room clean is like an oasis amidst the chaos.

Dobie

Hello ladies!

nikko, of course I asked that, and the reasons I explained before were the ones he think he need. Make sure home and me are safe. I guess he also needs to see my changes are for real. He is afraid we couldn't manage one fight here. So yes we have to keep talking a lot, and learn on who to deal with issues and also look for the counselor. I was wondering if maybe there are some other ways I'm not looking at here, other oppinions, besides those.

I never thought you were a horrible housekeeper, and my solution is having a permanent maid here from monday to friday, she sleeps here, and it's cheap, and it's a custome here still. But home lacks the touch if you know what I mean, that is something a maid can not fill up.
Today my H came here, (he is by my side now while I'm typing this) and bought plants <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . It's a nice touch, 2 ficus and 2 palms and they look good, I just need now on advice on how to keep those heheh every other plant I had in the past died LOL!. How about it? I can take care on a dog but no plants! New skill to learn here.

Yes this is a sticky point between us I see that now. I have to think a lot about this and why I'm like this, and H has become some sort of obsessive compulsive with order and well I'm that but with dissorder, it's not that I don't appreciate order, I do, but I have a hard time mantaining it. my H teases me telling me I have to got anything at least at my computer room at a hands reach, if I didn't I don't use it, and that is true hehehe, I guess it has to do a lot with the influence of my father that didn't mattered the looks as long as worked, so it's going to be a tough spot to POJA I guess... so in that much baby steps for both of us.

Dobie

You made me laugh! Thank you for the link! I was looking for it but didn't asked you about it, I knew you had it. now is on my favorites list <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . Have to satrt reading that as much as MB.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Perhaps we should get together with Nikko and start an "accountability" program with each other. Slobs Anonymous. Each day we post what we have and haven't done.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LOL! Another 12 steps program? heheh sure! Why we don't ask nikko about it? Let me think the 1st step would be something like...

We admitted we were powerless over our dissorder -- that our homes had become unmanageable.

Right now, all the places at home are clean and good to hang out I think, besides the computer room (thanks to him), and thank you for your advice, I guess I had to do a space were we both feel like it.

I'm very happy things are working out for you this way, keep the good job and your personal good philosophy, wich I think are good and true <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . I haven't forgot about those.

Take good care!

Hi again

This is sort of an update and how things are going now.

Regarding the DS issue, We have managed to POJA a lot of things. I'm letting him be, and when we are going to put new things like plants and stuff he is buying we do POJA on the places and that's it. Basically, He is doing what he wants here, and that is ok. Home looks a lot better than before, and I'm not sabotaging his efforts like before. It's ok by me, You have to know your good points and bad points, and one of the bad points of myself is being lazy on the house issue. He is good, so for now until I change that also, I think we found a good agreement on that.

Right now, the political situation of this country is very unstable. That has made us to be a bit restless, and my H is worried about my safety. You see, about 2 years ago, there was a small coup d'etat here and he was in Miami by that time. Those were crazy and very dangerous times. And I was alone for the whole ordeal.

Now, I think things are worse here, it's like this, a lot of people have signed up to do a referendum to take the president out of office, and he doesn't want it, he is cheating, sabotaging and a lot of things for it not to happen. Well you can bet a lot of us are very angry, at that, and people is tired of this crazy b@st@rd <- sorry for this, but you have to live here to understand it.
That lead to make people go to the streets, and they are burning tires on every other street, and fighting the goverment [lightly]. This is new, before we were frightened, now I think things are changing and can lead to violence very fast.

Well since that is affecting us as a country and as a family, H told me today after going to his parents if I wanted him to come home, and spend the night here. I told him, that what I would really wanted was for him to spend this night and the rest. On that issue, I know it's a little pushy, but really I feel he is really trying to restore trust [he even left me with my mouth open today asking what else I would need to feel safe?!!!]. Just for information, he has shared his passwords, he is going to change the credit card statement [the one he used with OW] for them to arrive here, he did the STD test and we got the results, he is trying to spend the most time here with me, always return the calls, always makes sure I know were he is at, etc. I still got some issues regarding boundaries with ladies, but I guess he has to work on those one day at a time. And finally but also very good, he went with me to Al-Anon, and he told me he is going to keep going and maybe he will get into the program. As you know I been going to AA, and the program I think have done me good. At least the small amount I try to understand and practice. Al-Anon can be good for him to for him to develop his spiritual growth, a point I was worried about.

Hummm I'm rambling here, the point is he told me to spend the night, I told him I would rather be here... I told him that, not to be pushy, like I NEED him in the bad sense, but also to test our relationship. I think that the way we are living now, we can spend a lifetime. I mean like dating. Another issue arises here. One of the main reasons this happened was because my H had a problem to have kids. The Dr's never told us it was impossible, just we had to do a treatment. Well that hit my H very hard, and he didn't knew how to deal with it. I put it in God's hands, at the time, and even now as before is on God's hands, but time is passing and I'm not 20 if you know what I mean. So the sooner we try to work this out, the sooner we can try to have a family.

That conversation, about him comming home, let to him revealing his plans and fears. He told me he had planed to come home, on the end of March. You see, my H is doing an MBA, which he is ending in Costa Rica by the end of March, he told me he planed to come home after he graduated and work on this by that time. Also he told me he feared but he also wanted to have this HUGE fight for us to LB big time and make a resolution out of it, and just go on. On that I didn't agreed, I'm trying on the countray really hard on NOT to fight, and to control myself. Call it plan A if you want, but I finally understood my mistakes, and being radical was and still is one of them, but I'm trying to change, and I'm avoiding a fight like never before. Is not that we had to much motives to fight this days, since we are really talking and listening, and I think we had at least 2 mini-fights in the last month. Both were resolved succesfully and we are doing good now.

I know the hardest part is yet to come. I know this will not be easy! But I just got the good will to work on this and my H also.

Also a HUGE point regarding my safety, is my H still working with OW, he doesn't see it yet, but that is not letting him completely dettach, be on recovery and go thru the phase od withdrawal. If that happens, I told him I would need him to tell me all he thinks, for me to being able to understand and help were I can. My H is looking now very hard for a new job. He doesn't like it there for many reasons, but realy things are not good on this country. Almost 80% of the population is unnemployed now, and having a job is a priced and valued comodity. Even more a high pay job [at least for here] like my H's. On that, he knows I can mantain our home as it is now, but we will not be able to save nothing out of my salary if he get's unnemployed. That might be hard times, but I will be able to support home if that time comes. Also, since dday, my H has kept mantaining finnalcially this home, that much has not changed, and well we are M and for me that mean for richer or poorer.

Wel also did a POJA about that. If by the end of June he has not found a new job, or before if I don't feel safe, he will quit, and I will mantain.

This is all by now, things re getting better, and I will continue to pray each day.

A small update here...

H is in Costa Rica, ending his MBA (FINALLY!!!)

We have managed to talk and to chat...

Lately he is filling up my love bank again... Yes! He is saying things so sweet, that I'm having a hard time believing he is the same man than a year ago, the man who couldn't relate to my pain, who was ignoring me, who was hurting me... ok ok I think you got it.

Today he said something like this... Be prepared to the HUGE ammount of happines I'm going to bring to your life!!! Isn't he great? I just hope we live to his words now, and I hope this better be good!!!

Also, today we talked about the counselor issue, yes we still have not gone to one and we did a POJA in going to an old counselor of him. Mines didn't went that well, It's amazing how hard is to find a good one. This one is a lady, wich I felt good the only time I went, and apparently H feels ok with her also, so we will try when he comes back. Btw this is almost the last thing I requested, that H has done for recovery and willingly. The last one is him changing jobs, but we already have a date for that. Pray for him to get a new one please!.

That's all for now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I want to ask for a prayer for all the mom's of all the BS's and WS's here that got their parents alive and know this is happening in their lifes...

Today, I went to do some errands with my sister, and she asked me how it was going with my H, that my mom have asked her to ask me. My mom doesn't ask me much and I don't tell her much, but today my sister told me something...

A while ago, when I was really in pain, some days I went to my parents to have lunch. Some times, out of the blue, I started crying there and in all that time, my mom gave me support the best way she could. After a while I left, sometimes crying, some times more calm.

What I didn't knew then, that as soon as I went away in my car, my mom went to her room and cryed also for me <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> , she never showed her pain. And I didn't saw it. Since I'm not a mom yet, I don't know how that feeling is, to see your childrens in pain, and you are not able to do much. That must hurt...

I would like to ask for a prayer for all those parents, and I thank God for the ones I got!!!