I am a newbie here, because I never thought I would need to explore this whole issue. But, I am in a bit of a bind. My wife of 18 years has been spending a LOT of time with a co-worker and she is quite open about it with me. He is much younger and single. It got to the stage at work that people were tittering and making comments about how tight the two of them were. Again, she was the one who reported this to me and was quite indignant at those reactions.

Now, she goes out evenings, leaving me at home with our five kids, and spends hours at a time with him. Often, when I'm not at home she also spends hours on the phone with him, hanging up suddenly when I come in. I have no proof of an EA, much less a PA and I can't really challenge her on this. In fact, I am forced to give her a green light for these meetings when asked.

Let me back up a bit and explain. She has for many years resented the fact that her life has always been for everyone's benefit except her own. She feels that she has sacrificed her life for me and our kids, including leaving a
budding career and not finishing grad school in order for us to relocate for my career.

She constantly claims to be depressed and stressed, and often has angry outburst at me or the kids. She hates most everything about her life -- our neighborhood, our house, our financial situation, our church, and especially her current job. She has dropped almost all contact with friends.

The only hope, the only "escape" she sees is a potential new career as a screenwriter. And that is why she is spending so much time with this co-worker. After telling me all about this "brilliant,witty" fellow over and over for months, she decided that he would be an ideal writing partner and asked if I minded.

Because I do feel guilty about her situation in life, I feel I just can't prevent this "collaboration". She has always been perfectly honest with me, (although
she has resented the fact that I was older and "experienced" when we married, and she was a young virgin and wishes she too had had a chance to "spread her wings" a bit before marriage). She tells me that she would rather die than have an A.

Yet, there are some worrying signs that I'm not sure what to do about. As I said, they are spending many hours together alone, usually at night. I had been under the impression that they would be meeting at public places like Starbucks, but have just found out that their last 5 hour meeting till past midnight was in our van parked in a ravine.

I've also seen some of the emails that he has sent her and that she has sent her best female friend. One from him talked about a party he had been to and how he kept thinking about her and how much he missed not having her with him there. Yesterday, she sent one to her last remaining female friend saying that she was "extremely hurt" and became depressed when OM had told her that he suspects another younger co-worker has a crush on him. Another one today spoke of an intense conversation in which he complained to her about being the "other man".

Other concerns I have include: She complains that I have put on weight in my middle age (OM is 20 years younger than me, svelte and cool looking), and that I never want to go out and have a good time anymore (because one time I was too exhausted, and then she gave up).

At the same time, she never tires of telling me how brilliant OM is and what an amazing opportunity it is to partner with him. I can only smile and respond how great that is. One time I ventured that she should not get too excited in case it didn't work out with him, and she when into a rage for a few days at how I ALWAYS undermine her.

So this is my bind. If I confront her, or even bring up that I am concerned, she will undoubtedly explode that I am trying to block her last opportunity to do something creative, interesting and fulfilling in her otherwise dreary, suffocating life. She has, over the past few months mentioned both suicide and our marriage not surviving (but this was due to problems with our teenage son).

I want to be as supportive as possible for her, and her potential new career. I become a single dad on those nights she is out, or take out the kids on the weekend so she can work alone.

Should I just let it go and trust that she will remain honest and true, or should I tempt fate by putting my foot down? While the latter approach might seem simple and direct, the consequence could be pretty devastating to our marriage. HELP.

Troubled1

She sounds like a very troubled woman talking about suicide. You are certainly in a bind. My guess is that she is at the very least in an emotional affair and quite possibly in a physical affiar or heading that way. You have to establish boundaries. She is acting like a single woman who has 5 children at home. I am worried about the suicide comment. My guess is that down the line after the OM dumps her for someone his own age then she may do something serious to herself.
The bottom line is that you have to do something.
Closing your eyes to this situation will simply allow her to engage in this affair and become more deeply involved. The comments you read indicates this is something serious. Try to get both of you into counseling. If you do nothing and she crashes and burns you will kick yourself for allowing this to continue and not doing anything. The fact is that she is married and acting like she is single. I guarantee you if the roles were reversed she would not accept this disrespecting behavior from you. I wish you luck.

Troubled 1

As someone who is now dealing with a possible marriage breakup, based on something that started (Emotional Affair followed by PA) only at the start of March, my advice is to act NOW.

I waited and it just made it worse.

The consequences of not acting are much more serious than those of acting. Bryan is spot on - try to get the pair of you to counselling ASAP. And read, read, read the stuff on this site

agree with the other 2 here. you are right - major leage big red flag all over. you show understanding why your ww was led to the current situation (always being there for the family, perceived to get nothing in return etc) - a very familiar pattern. have a good, good read on the stuff on this site, get the 2 of you into councelling, and continue to post. OK?

Troubled1,
I usually post on the D/D board but was surfing around MB and saw your post. I also see red flags all over the place. The old adage "if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it is a duck" certainly applies here. Your wife is at the very least having an EA.

The fact that you recognize her sacrifices earlier in your marriage, and are trying to make up for them now, so to speak, is commendable; and probably the first step in being honest in a counseling session to work on your marriage.

Before you talk to her about it, determine what your course of action is. Will you see a counselor with or without her? Is that one way you want to work on your marriage, communication & relationship skills, etc.? I think instead of having the "put your foot down" mentality, which she can't help but see as you once again undermining her, approach her along the lines of "let's work on us" which would imply you both take responsibility for your actions. I would think that through counseling she may see her actions as wrong without you having to spell it out so directly. Backed into a corner, she would most likely take the easy way out, i.e.,leaving. Also, couseling would bring any suicidal thoughts to the table with a professional.

In the meantime, you can work on you, too. Now you're competing with the OM for her time and attention. You can't turn back the clock, but you can exercise and update yourself a little bit in certain areas. Doing things outside of the rut you may have gotten into will throw HER off, and possible cause her to think twice. This is where Plan A comes in. Good luck <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Have her followed, take pictures, do more snooping, check phone records, install a microcassette on your home phone, check mileage on her/your vehicle, read her email and put spyware on your computer. Why, she's going to deny every bit of it. Have 'hard' evidence so you can expose the affiar to the 'light' of day. It IS an affair, and from what I read, its 99% already going to be an physical affair. Been here done it, and I had to buy the tshirt. She is screwing around on you. Period. Now you just have to prove it.

Troubled1, be prepared to findout the worst, and when you do confirm the worst, wait and don't let her know you know. Snoop for several days to weeks with plenty of 'evidence' to finally confront her with the knowledge of the truth.

Seek support here when you find out, your going to need it.

Sorry that this is happening to you and your children.

If you need any help with the spyware, snooping devices, let me know.

I'm going to bump a post up for you on 'spying'. I'll come back and post a link.

Hang in there.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> After telling me all about this "brilliant,witty" fellow over and over for months, she decided that he would be an ideal writing partner and asked if I minded....Because I do feel guilty about her situation in life, I feel I just can't prevent this "collaboration". She has always been perfectly honest with me...She tells me that she would rather die than have an A. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So she thinks all the hours she is spending with him are okay, because you didn't say that it bothered you when she asked if you minded.

She uses guilt to manipulate you so that she can spend copious amounts of time with this OM. That doesn't mean she is entitled to spend time with him. She made a comittment to you for life. You and your children should be her #1 priority.

She may rather die than have an A, but she is certainly having an EA that is upsetting you. She probably feels even more justified in spending so much time with this man because nothing physical is going on, so she doesn't see anything wrong with it.

Quietly stifling your concerns will do nothing to help the situation, even if she is threatening suicide. You somehow need to address it, soon, before your resentment towards her behaviour grows, and your marital bond weakens even further.

It sounds like perhaps she is suffering from depression, and going for counselling therefore sounds wise to me.

I wish I knew a way to approach her that wouldn't result in her blowing up at you and accusing you of being selfish or unkind. That's what my H would accuse me of being when I got upset about his close friendships with not one but TWO female colleagues. He used guilt to manipulate me into allowing his friendships too. I didn't make enough time to exercise with him, so he started exercising with them, which led to numerous hours of social time together and on the phone as well. That's one of the negative possibilities here, if you continue to allow it to go on once, she may feel entitled to add another male coworker friend to the mix. My resentment was so huge, it contributed (in part) to me engaging in an A myself.

I've been reading a book called "Emotional Blackmail" that is about emotionally manipulative and abusive people. Your wife is using guilt to manipulate you. It's not fair that she has given up on you and your ability to go out and have a good time. The book gives tips on how to deal with emotionally manipulative people so that you don't continue to enable their hurtful behaviour. Maybe give it a read.

Keep reading and posting here too. There are some very wise people here, who can probably help you find the right way to bring this up with your wife. I can only imagine how afraid you are of her response if you call her on this one.

Take care,

Jen

<small>[ May 26, 2003, 07:43 AM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Troubled1,

Here is a link of somethings you can do to 'detect' the affair snooping

I'll see if I can find some others for you to make reference to.. although this thread took me about an hour and a half to locate. Good luck.

<small>[ May 26, 2003, 08:07 AM: Message edited by: Husband2you ]</small>

Thanks to all who have provided feedback on my dilemma. There seems to be a consistent sense that there is indeed something more going on and that we need professional help fast.

I want to point out that she did start going to a therapist regularly in response to her own feelings of depression -- a couple of months ago. Should I insist on joining her at these sessions, occassionaly or always? Or should I try and find a separate marriage therapist? But, I'm even afraid that that suggestion will cause harm ("Aha, so you don't trust me!")

Also, I have to stress again that she has always been a completely honest person to a fault. So it is very hard for me to believe anything serious is really going on when she insists it isn't despite those concerns I raised. I would feel real low trying to "spy" on her (although I did do a little digging in the computer log as I mentioned).

Although I very much appreciate all the support from the husbands out there, I would really like to get some female/wives perspective on my situation. Please read my opening description on it.

Given the "sacrifices" she has made, do you think its reasonable and appropriate for me to allow her to spend huge chunks of private time with this fellow? She asked me again if I'm okay with it (although now it is also because she has lost almost all her other friends and feels he is someone she would like to become good friends with, not just for "professional" reasons). But I know that if I say no, her resentment will seriously multiply.

Thanks again to all for your input!

I fixed that link.

As for spying... your going to have to do more of it to put yourself at peace. It may be 'low' of you to do it, but until you have the conformation you need of any EA/PA, your going to have to have evidence before you confront.

Don't walk/talk yourself into a 'confrontation' without having any additional knowledge than you have now. If you DO NOT have the knowledge (evidence), then she WILL go to great lengths to HIDE the affiar, if any, if she suspects you are looking.

Don't confront without any knowledge other than what you've told us here. MVHO.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Given the "sacrifices" she has made, do you think its reasonable and appropriate for me to allow her to spend huge chunks of private time with this fellow? She asked me again if I'm okay with it (although now it is also because she has lost almost all her other friends and feels he is someone she would like to become good friends with, not just for "professional" reasons). But I know that if I say no, her resentment will seriously multiply. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No I don't think it is reasonable, especially if it is bothering or hurting you that she spends so much time with him at the expense of spending time with you or with you and the kids.

Don't say yes just to avoid seeing her resentment build. Answer honestly. Tell her how you feel. Tell her that you are hurt by how close she has become to this man, and that you long to spend more time with her (if this is the case, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth).

Even if you find out it's not a physical affair, so what? The closeness of their friendship as it is right now sure sounds like it's bothering you, or have I misunderstood?

If you can't be open and honest with her about your feelings, then something is seriously wrong.

Jen

Oh and another thing, she still seems to have you completely persuaded that all the sacrifices she has made entitle her to do as she pleases here, entitle her to this friendship that takes up so many hours of her life.

She's not entitled to it from my perspective.

You are entitled to be able to tell her that this friendship with her coworker makes you uncomfortable, and that you would like to spend more time with your wife, rather than wait around for her while she's out with this friend.

Jen

Wow, thanks for the quick and considerate replies Jen!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The closeness of their friendship as it is right now sure sounds like it's bothering you, or have I misunderstood?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you have gotten to the heart of the matter. I am confused, uncertain.

I am not by nature a jealous H. My W has had her share of guys flirting with her over the years and it has not bothered me at all (in fact, I almost was proud -- and we would laugh it off).

Since she has hit upon this whole new career possibility, and especially this new collaboration arrangement, she has been much much happier and positive in life. Her previous overwhelming bouts of depression and hoplessness and outbursts of tears and anger have been replaced with a return to a much calmer and pleasant personality. It's been wonderful for me and the kids.

That's why I am so afraid to ruin it -- especially if there is no real threat of an A.

On the other hand, I just uncovered her email yesterday to her female friend saying that she had a very long and intense talk with OM and he is fed up with being, you guessed it, "the OM".

That's why I remain,

Troubled and Confused

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Troubled1:
<strong>

Also, I have to stress again that she has always been a completely honest person to a fault. So it is very hard for me to believe anything serious is really going on when she insists it isn't despite those concerns I raised. I would feel real low trying to "spy" on her (although I did do a little digging in the computer log as I mentioned).

Although I very much appreciate all the support from the husbands out there, I would really like to get some female/wives perspective on my situation. Please read my opening description on it.

Given the "sacrifices" she has made, do you think its reasonable and appropriate for me to allow her to spend huge chunks of private time with this fellow? She asked me again if I'm okay with it (although now it is also because she has lost almost all her other friends and feels he is someone she would like to become good friends with, not just for "professional" reasons). But I know that if I say no, her resentment will seriously multiply.

Thanks again to all for your input!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Troubled,
A wife and a husband are *supposed* to make sacrifices for their family. That is how this all works. You have made many sacrifices yourself. However, that does not entitle her to have an affair just because she did what a wife was supposed to do. When we get married, we put our family's best interest FIRST, that is an EXPECTATION, not some special dispensation she bestowed on you.

It is NEVER appropriate for a married woman to spend enormous amounts of time with a single guy. NEVER. I believe, like the guys do, that she is having, at best, an emotional affair, and at worst, a physical affair. All the signs are there.

Given that, you have a RESPONSIBILITY to find out what is going on so you can protect yourself and your family. Hopefully, you will find out that NOTHING is happening and you can attain some well deserved peace from your snooping. However, your W is having an INAPPROPRIATE, special relationship outside of your marriage. The fabric and nature of that relationship is being HIDDEN from you. It is being hidden for a REASON. And that is what you need to find out. I would most certainly NOT confront her until and unless you find out what is going on. Either way, I would confront her about the inappropriate nature of this relationship - it is destroying your marriage and you are doing nothing about it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Also, I have to stress again that she has always been a completely honest person to a fault. So it is very hard for me to believe anything serious is really going on when she insists it isn't despite those concerns I raised.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Completely honest people can and do get sucked into affairs. We see them on here every day. And of course she will insist nothing is happening. She isn't likely to bust herself. You shouldn't feel low about snooping to find out what is happening in your OWN LIFE when the details are being withheld from you. There is no virtue in allowing someone to destroy you behind your back. You should feel low about letting this VERY inappropriate relationship spiral out of control. Please take control of your life.

Troubled,
If they are talking on the internet, you can easily rule out an affair by installing spy software. A good one is Starr Home version at www.iopus.com. It records all keystrokes, websites and both sides of chat conversations. It costs $40 and I would suggest paying for it, otherwise it will be in trial mode and will flash a banner everytime the computer is restarted. Be sure and download it to disk [rather than click to open software] or you can't install in invisible mode.

I am sorry but did you say you came across and email sent to her friend that says he is tired of being the OM? Do you have to have piano fall on your head to understand the implications? You seem pleased that she is happier these days towards you and your children. It sounds like she is happier because she gets to spend enormous time with her OM and gets to come home to a family as well. This is known as being a cakewoman. You can keep a blind eye to this but the longer it continues the more intense the relationship will become. Your attitude is enabling her to continue this relationship deeper and deeper.
I hate to be harsh but your attitude of allowing her to be more involved with the OM who may be sleeping with your wife seems to be giving her the green light to continue. By the way almost everyone on this board will tell you they could never believe their spouse could ever betray them because they are not that type of person and would never lie to them. "No consequences to her actions equals no motivation to change". She is in a marriage to you and when she asks if you are O.K. with this involvement you say yes because you want to make her happy. It sounds like you are in denial. She is attracted to and fascinated with this younger man and is allowed to spend a great deal of time with him and he is now tired of being the other man. You are on a time bomb and I think you realize this. What will you say after this blows up on you when you wife says you didn't seem to care and allowed her to continue this emotional (possibly physical) affair
even though you knew about this. Your wife is walking into quicksand and you are standing by watching and taking notes. I wish you luck.

Troubled1,
Ditto to everything MelodyLane said.
1) Married couples are *supposed*" to make sacrifices for each other. I supported my H through college, grad school, and PhD (where he met OW) but it doesn't entitle me to behave inappropriately in any sense of the word. So don't let any residual guilt keep you from checking out what your instincts are already telling you. If you didn't suspect anything, you wouldn't have posted.

2) It is NEVER appropriate for a married woman to spend time with a guy, alone - Work or otherwise.

3) I also said my H would never lie to me, ever. Yet he did, after being completely honest for 25 years. Go figure! Intentions are to be honest, reality says otherwise.

4) Install the spyware, it will provide you final proof. If you've already seen an email referring to the guy as OM, that's probably the tip of the iceberg.

5) Are her old friends your friends too? If so, could you hint around for them to reinitiate contact with your wife?

6) You could make an appointment with her counselor yourself, or call him, and see if he is willing to do marriage counseling or could recommend another counselor. (I don't know about conflict of interest or whatever here.)

<--- Thinks his posts are invisible.

<small>[ February 05, 2005, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: hanora ]</small>

Whew. Am I really as naive as Husband2u, Bryanp, et al are claiming???

Thanks for the supportive words, esp MelodyLane and Avondale. Avondale, you struck a chord: my W also held on during my very long stretch through grad school/PhD and never got to complete her Masters because of our move (a matter she hasn't let me forget 12 years later).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 3) I also said my H would never lie to me, ever. Yet he did, after being completely honest for 25 years. Go figure! Intentions are to be honest, reality says otherwise.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now that scares the hell out of me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 5) Are her old friends your friends too? If so, could you hint around for them to reinitiate contact with your wife?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And what exactly is my purpose here? Is it just to get them to check out her version, or to try and replace her need for OM's friendship? If it's the latter, I'm afraid it's a losing battle because she is basing this on her need for a career option. (She has to go out and "see lots of movies together with him to analyze story structure".)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 6) You could make an appointment with her counselor yourself, or call him, and see if he is willing to do marriage counseling or could recommend another counselor. (I don't know about conflict of interest or whatever here.)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is exactly what I was wondering. Is this a COI? I would imagine that if the counselor knows more about that relationship, she (yes, female therapist) would be obligated not to reveal. I don't know if this would all just backfire by using her or if she could bridge the issues.

On the other hand, I'm not sure what reasons to give for us to go to another marriage counsellor that won't send off alarm bells. Any professional counsellors out there with insight on this one?

Thanks all.