Hanora,

I'm a bit hesitant about getting too specific, but she does work p/t as a teacher. She realizes this screenwriting dream is a real long shot, but still views it as her only hope. And she is convinced it can only be accomplished with a good partner. She looked for a long time, and that is why she was so thrilled that OM came along and agreed.

The house idea is a nice one, but impossible. She complains that she can't even sit down and write on her own in the locked office we partioned off, because there is a steady stream of interuptions and noise from our 5 young kids, no matter how often they are warned off.

She is even talking repeatedly about ideally renting a space downtown with a desk and a futon so she can escape for longer stretches. (Incidentally, we live in the suburbs and OM shares a house downtown.)

But, I am glad to get your perspective on all this Hanora. Does it sound legit? Should I back off and give her the space she seeks?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Troubled1:
<strong>Whew. Am I really as naive as Husband2u, Bryanp, et al are claiming???

Thanks for the supportive words, esp MelodyLane and Avondale. Avondale, you struck a chord: my W also held on during my very long stretch through grad school/PhD and never got to complete her Masters because of our move (a matter she hasn't let me forget 12 years later).

.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Troubled, and this is part of the problem. She has willingly made critical choices in her life and held them against *YOU*. She has used that guilt as sort of an entitlement pass in your marriage. Sorry, but she was only doing what was expected of her as a wife and a mother. And she did it WILLINGLY. We all, men and women, make sacrifices every day for the best interest of our families. You have also made sacrifices. Thats how it works.

<small>[ February 05, 2005, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: hanora ]</small>

Hm. Not to put the fear of god into you or anything, but the way you describe your wife sounds a whole lot like me before I started an affair.

No offense to the people pushing spyware, but I don't think that gets to the meat of the matter. You can snoop and learn this or that, but that doesn't finally solve anything.

The thing is, being with this guy is making her feel something she doesn't feel at home. Maybe she feels alive again. Maybe it makes her feel young. Maybe she feel her life has passed her by and this is the only last chance she has.

Whatever it is she's feeling, you have to find out what it is and find out how to help her feel that way with you. I don't know your situation, of course, but what have you done lately to let her know that she matters, that her dreams matter, that her happiness matters? What suggestions have you made lately to "go out and have a good time"?

I wonder if she feels the responsibilities of married life have been dumped on her, in respects to things like children and managing the home. Is that the case?

I think you came close to hitting the nail on the head when you said this: If I confront her... she will undoubtedly explode that I am trying to block her last opportunity to do something creative, interesting and fulfilling in her otherwise dreary, suffocating life."

I don't think she will explode, necessarily. Not if she knows that you support her dreams. Not if she believes that you are sharing the burdens of marriage on her, and not leaving her to shoulder them alone. But she probably does feel life is leaving her behind.

Your wife does sound very vulnerable to an affair. That doesn't mean you can't both work together to make your marriage more nurturing for both of you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by wiegee:
<strong>

No offense to the people pushing spyware, but I don't think that gets to the meat of the matter. You can snoop and learn this or that, but that doesn't finally solve anything.

.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wiegee,

No one claims that spyware will "solve the problem," only that it is a very necessary tool in exposing the nature of the relationship. It is intended to make him aware of the true nature of the relationship so that he will know how to proceed. He can't exactly move forward unless he has the facts and she is not forthcoming with them. When the facts are being withheld from a BS, he/she has a responsibility to dig them out himself.

It is also extremely damaging to confront a WS WITHOUT facts, because you risk accusing an INNOCENT person. Very damaging to a marriage.

It is essential that he dig in and find out what is truly happening here before he can move forward. And that might involve PI's, spyware, etc. It is all essential in exposing the affair. And exposing the affair is the first step in recovery.

<small>[ May 26, 2003, 06:31 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

I don't really agree. The "facts" of which you speak, whether they exist or not, are not really the problem. Whether she's involved with another man or not, she is miserable. THAT is the problem. If there is another man, he's only a symptom. Whether or not there is an affair, her unhappiness must be addressed.

<small>[ May 26, 2003, 06:33 PM: Message edited by: wiegee ]</small>

wiegee, of course her happiness has to be addressed. That is the whole point of Plan A and the principles of Marriage Builders. However, he still has to know if she is having an affair or not. That is information that is absolutely necessary to the recovery of his marriage. That is part and parcel of recovery the Marriage Builders way. Hiding from the facts of an affair is not a Marriage Builder principle, but one of your own.

Troubled, I don't want to hijack your thread with a silly debate about snooping, so I will simply defer to the words of Dr. Harley, who does advocate snooping and who believes that exposing the affair is essential to recovery. Another thing to consider is that it might just be in the initial stages so your intervention could prevent it from going further. Dr Harley is the expert, so I will refer you to his counsel:

"I am a firm believer in letting each spouse do as much snooping around as they want. Nothing should be kept secret in marriage, and no questions should be left unanswered. If a spouse objects to such scrutiny, what might he or she be hiding?

Another type of clue is records of communication such as telephone records, letters and e-mail. Most affairs depend on repeated contacts and evidence of those contacts can usually be found. That's how M.S. discovered her husband's affair. When his lover was living in the same city, he was able to hide his affair, but after he moved, it became almost impossible for him to keep his communication a secret. He was addicted to daily contact, and M.S. saw evidence of it almost immediately after the move. But how many people move away from a lover? It's very rare, and if M.S.'s family had not moved, she may never have discovered the affair because she trusted her husband. " http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

Snooping, Marital Espionage, Spying, Investigative Discovery, Minding other's business? Call it what you want, they are all the same.

Why should Troubled1 do it? I'll tell you why.

When my WW began acting differently and 'hording' her privacy, I became suspect of her actions. I'm an intelligent man, but an unsuspecting husband, well I was at the time. I didn't notice her pulling away; she spoke of her unhappiness with family and friends, but she was the playwriter of her life and she choose the leadrole, then she played me, she played the children, a card she dealt to herself, she lied to me, she lied to herself and she lied to her children.

She wrapped herself up in the arms of a man, a monster who she let in. A wolf in sheeps clothing, was her savior, her angel, her lover and her soulmate. He was going to rescue her from all the harm I had done in 'her' life. Before she knew it, before I knew it and as our children laid quietly in their beds, she left.

I did my snooping, I did my research, I was the levelheaded one at the time who was looking out for the family unit, protecting the 4 boys, her, myself and our castle. I discovered, to her suprise, a man, a violent man, in his past with an arrest record of deadly conduct, domestic assault. A man who two women before my wife, had filed protective orders to save themselves from his anger, his violence, his manipulation. The same gentle loving man who was holding, swooning, manipulating and f'ing my wife.

I was only to find this information out by snooping. By capturing his cell number on a caller ID, I placed in our attic, hardwired through a tape recorder. Following up on that number and purchasing a cellphone reverse lookup, I knew where the [censored] worked. It was only a matter of time, before I would play the tape and decide to further findout more information, by placing 2 microcassette recorders in the passenger doors of her vehicle. I was able to find to within one block of where he lived, by comparitively playing the tape while driving and following the cords of the road as they were recorded onto tape. The pauses of street noise resembled intersections and stop signs, blinker clickings gave me directions of turns, drowned by the music, and of her singing in the background.

I was able to find through public records, both of his divorce decree's from his 2 failed marriages, his arrest records, his illegal use of his fathers social security number, to hide behind to avoid paying child support to his children.

With his name and his social I was able to do a vehicle records search and came up with a license plate number and description of his vehicle, the finance company who financed it and found his mother, through records working at the bank that financed it. I was able to find every address that the OM resided at, and who his roomates were, and put the puzzle of abuse and protective orders all together.

I had his personal doisser all through snooping that cellphone number, then getting his name, his social. The information piled in after that.

What the information didn't do was save my marriage. What the information did do and will do is protect me and the boys.

Snooping is a vital part of discovery of the affair, but there is further discovery which you need to be aware of. These OP are going to be around your children, possibly the rest of their lives, and that of your grandchildren. Don't you want to know more about what the hell is going on in your marriage than what the WS is doing, and why 'they' are so hurt, whining about what unmet needs that we have caused them?

I'm amazed, people, you spend more time picking out tires for your car, or thumping melons, than you do trying to protect the single largest investment in your life, that you will ever make. At some point in time, your going to have to make a decision to plan a/b, seperate and divorce, or reconcile. You wouldn't by a house without checking its history. A foriegner is now in your life, make sure they are legit. Expose the affair to the truth.

Some of you will think that this is extreme and only a simple one time case scenario. Your wrong. I can name 3 other active members right now, who are active at MB today, who snooped and discovered more than your average OP. Yes, saving the marriage is the most important task at hand, but lets not forget, that if we fail in restoring our marriage and recovering to a safe place, your OP will be with your children, somewhere, someway and sometime.

When your WS calls you from the road, because this psycho, has taken her and your son hostage for four hours, and manipulates her, by cutting his wrists for control, your going to want to be able to give all the information you can to the police and the DA to have that OP locked far away from your family, even if your WS doesn't want to be there, press charges, or come home.

My world opened up on me like the mouth of hell's ocean and came crashing down on the shores of my soul, testing every inch of my being to survive through this. I was broadsided with an affair; but it wasn't just an affair with a psychotic, abusive male, and it was the safety of the children that she and I both cared for deeply, whom she was now risking.

Don't snoop if you don't want to. Hide behind your your WS's fears of resentment and lies and watch a year from now who is going to be kissing your children goodnight.

Snoop first, protect yourself and your children; expose the affair to reality, so that you can play on a level playing field with the OP and your WS.

As affairs go, your the monster she describes to him when they are together. Your the [censored] who didn't let her finish her education and selfishly worked to get all of you where you are today. That's what she is telling him. Mark my word.

Don't confront without evidence. Period. It doesn't work in our judicial system, it doesn't work in your marriage. Watch the honorable judge through out the case.

Don't sell yourself on recovery. Period. It doesn't work in boardrooms across the globe. Watch a company become unstable and crash, when they haven't done their homework, and buy into the lies of honesty and trust of a company who lives in the good o'le boys network.

IMVHHO, Be safe, be careful and make an honest, intellectual choice of what your going to do about protecting you and the 5 children you share. Once you do that, then work on your marriage. Remember, WS's lie like dirt, and the longer they lie, some, the better they get at it. Eventually they all get caught, but don't be one of the guys on this site who waited to long to find out the truth. Snoop for your safety and that of your children. I don't have to tell you what jealousy and a love triangle breeds in common people. Just watch the 10:00pm news and you see. If there's a glint of hope, your OM will be 'normal'.

I spoke softly this morning. Now, Troubled1, I'm barking and I hope I have your attention. Peace.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong>
Another type of clue is records of communication such as telephone records, letters and e-mail. Most affairs depend on repeated contacts and evidence of those contacts can usually be found. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I appreciate your point here, but I don't really need to find evidence of repeated contacts because I not only know of them, I am being asked to approve of them. That is my quandry. She feels she needs these many hours together with OM not only for "writing purposes" but also to "build a friendship" so that their collaboration works smoothly and naturally.

The only possible spying would be to hire a private detective to follow them around. That is just too much.

Hanora -- Yes, she will watch videos too, but she is asking if she can get together with OM at movies so that they can also build a friendship (see above).
I do try and encourage her writing. But again, she feels she can only succeed in a writing partnership, not solo.

Wiegee -- Ouch. Good to hear it from your perspective though. I'm not sure what you mean by dumped on. She wanted to have the kids ...at the time anyways.

When I say explode, I may have been overdramatic. More likely, she will accept it, but never, ever let me forget it as just one more example of my always making her give up on her dreams and blocking her aspirations. There will be no grand explosion, just many many small ones down the road. It is that continuing bitterness and the impact on our family that almost scares me more than an A.

Troubled1

IMO you face a choice
- let this affair (And that is what it is, whether physical or not) develop which could end your marriage and devastate your children or,
- Intervene now, which will be traumatic, but which will with counselling, professional help etc give you the tools to do everything possible to save the relationship

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Troubled1:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
[qb]
Another type of clue is records of communication such as telephone records, letters and e-mail. Most affairs depend on repeated contacts and evidence of those contacts can usually be found. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I appreciate your point here, but I don't really need to find evidence of repeated contacts because I not only know of them, I am being asked to approve of them. QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Troubled,

I think Dr Harley is referring to looking for evidence of contact AFTER no contact has been initiated. This is a principle he recommends in the recovery phase. You are right, you don't need to snoop to find out what you already know. This particular suggestion is for the future to ensure that contact has been discontinued. The snooping that is relevent to you now is not *IF* they are in contact, but the *NATURE* of their contacts to determine if there is an affair and the exact nature of their relationship.

Troubled1
You have certainly gotten a lot of interest in this thread! Salerio was right with your two choices, and either way, you will have fireworks from your wife. My opinion is that you need to get concrete proof to bring up your concerns (expose the A). This can be done on whatever scale you want - from simply computer spyware to the more elaborate means that Husband2You described (which may be excessive for your situation). This is done in order to move past it for healing, for the reasons Melody Lane said (part of MB advice from Dr. Harley). And I hate to bring this up, but if this A develops into a divorce(which we don't want), you will be glad you have the proof when it comes to legal matters, depending on what state you live.

<small>[ May 27, 2003, 07:00 AM: Message edited by: avondale25 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Troubled1:
<strong>[QUOTE]:
[qb]

More likely, she will accept it, but never, ever let me forget it as just one more example of my always making her give up on her dreams and blocking her aspirations. There will be no grand explosion, just many many small ones down the road. It is that continuing bitterness and the impact on our family that almost scares me more than an A.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Troubled, but you have never "made her" give up her dreams and aspirations. She *chose* to do what any normal mother or father would do, and that is put their FAMILY's best interest first and make sacrifices. That was her obligation. She has done no more than what she was supposed to do. She has done no more than you have or anyone else.

Further, that is great that she has an "aspiration" to be a screenwriter, but she has no right to have an affair and destroy her family. That little "dream" is off the table. She knows what she is doing is wrong and is just waiting for you to do something about it.

Please carefully read Husband2you's post. He made some excellent points about where you are headed. He has been in your shoes.

<small>[ May 27, 2003, 07:10 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Thanks everyone here for their input. (Between Melodymaker and Husband4You I am ready to relocate to the Lone Star State just for the assuredness that it seems to breed <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

The overwhelming sentiment seems to be that either she is already in an A, or is pretty much headed that way. I could say that you folks should know better than anyone because you've been there. Or, I suppose it could be argued that there is a bias in the fact that the forum is precisely for those that have all been burnt one time or another.

Maybe I do need that piano to hit me on the head (thanks Bryanp) or at least something more solid than some troubling but ultimately inconclusive e-mails, before I take what could be a very serious step with far-reaching consequences.

Meantime, update on the situation: after that "I don't want to be the OM" incident, there seems to have been a major flare up between my W and OM. She keeps muttering about how she is not so sure this "partnership" is going to work out. I caught a couple of emails, one in which she says that she might have blown things with OM, and another that her therapist advised her to use this opportunity to work on her other partner relationship. I was pleased to see that (but now I am the other !) And indeed she suddenly has spoken about us trying to spend some quality time together to rekindle our relationship.

So once again I am not sure if I should just let it go for a while and see if this continues or begins to deteriorate again.

<small>[ February 05, 2005, 04:56 PM: Message edited by: hanora ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hanora:
<strong>Now that is good news. Sir Lancelot apparently has some dents in that shining armor. Leap on that desire to spend some quality time together.
Think about what you could do that she would enjoy. Surprise tickets to a play?? A performing art but not a movie.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks again Hanora. That is exactly what I plan to do. This is a golden opportunity.

She had a session with her therapist today and was very positive and up. I dared to ask if she thought I should join her at a session, but she insisted that it wasn't necessary any longer (strange, a few months ago she was begging for us to find a MC) and she had "other separate" issues that she was working out with this therapist's help.

So indeed it could be that the honeymoon with "Sir Lancelot" is now over. Wish me luck.

Let me suggest that even if the "affair" is over, keeping it under wraps is a risky step and not helpful towards developing a close relationship.

Also, without accountability, your W may find the withdrawal from her friend to be too much and you'll end up in a perpetual situation with your W divided between her friend and you.

I know you're scared to start any action that may trigger a bad response, but denial and conflict avoidance are two big factors in A situations and cold marriages. It would probably be best for you if you could find some way to discuss this eventually in a safe manner (e.g. don't even use the word affair if you don't have proof of a physical relationship). And try and spend lots of quality time with your W talking. Along with anything else you can glean from Harley's books.

Latest Revolution in Semen Detection Home Test Kits One more spying option.

Troubled:

My WW and I have been in recovery from her EA for 1&1/2 years. She denied everything until I confronted her with hard proof. Before that I trusted her completely. If you go to MC now and work on your M, it is important that you address what happened with her and yourself. Otherwise, you will be skirting the main issue and find yourself in the same situation down the road.

Regardless of how you or your W defend or explain away her relationship with OM, it is abundantly clear to me and most everyone else here that AT THE VERY LEAST, she is/was having an EA. You must accept this as true and figure out how this really makes you feel. If you both act as if this never happened and fail to discuss it, you will have difficulty resolving your M issues. As for snooping, its main purpose is simply to confirm the extent of the A and determine whether it is ongoing. Most people want to know the basics of the A so they know what they are dealing with and whether the WS is really trying to work on the M.

Should you confront your W with your concerns? Yes. You don't need to accuse her of an A, but you can share how her contact with OM makes you feel and that you sometimes wonder whether there is more. Expect that she will deny. You can discuss with her that even if it is "only" an emotional relationship, that you do not think it is good for your M and your family.