The article: Emotional infidelity may be a way to start talking about it. But, read it and see if it fits your sitch before you do.

est and RJB2,
I hear what you're saying. But things have been very good between us lately. I think it has largely to do with her regular therapy sessions. After each she is very up in general and especially warm towards me.

I found out (from emails she sent to her last remaining close female friend) that the therapist has started pushing her to severe her relation with OM! My sense is that OM blew up a couple weeks ago when my W refused to "commit" to him more (see my earlier report that OM didn't want to feel like the OM).

That was a real low point for my W. She was in a real depressed state, talking suicidal (her emails contained imagery of standing at the edge of an abyss, and spoke of ODing on pills). When I "innocently" asked her about her sudden increased unhappiness and tears, she blamed it on the general malaise of her life, and the shattering of her screenwriting prospects. She would only say that she didn't think the collaboration would work out.

But now, according to the latest emails, my W has started moving beyond her depressed state and is beginning to feel "emotionally detached" from OM (despite his apparent attempts to rekindle). But, despite the therapist's urgings, my W feels she is able to handle the demands and still collaborate with him. She still believes OM is her best and only chance for a good writing partnership.

So, despite her unease with the current situation (since the blow-up between them), and the apparent urgings of her therapist, she still wants to pursue this collaboration. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

In some ways, I am back to square one. I can allow my W to continue this partnership, safe in the knowledge that she did draw the line once and has become "detached". The payoff? Our family benefits with her being much happier and emotionally stable. Like I said, things are going wonderfully just now and she views me as being very supportive to her needs.

OR, as most have urged, I can tell her that I am uncomfortable with it, and insist on NC. I am almost 100% that she would comply.

BUT, as simple and clean as that seems to everyone, the cost will be huge and permanent (given her track record). Our already highly stressful lives(details of some major issues with our kids I won't bore you with) would experience a whole new wave of negativity. There is serious potential for long-term damage to our marriage and family.

So, in the end, the choice for me is not as simple as it appears at first blush.

Note to johnh39; yes, I had read a bit about Dr. Neuman's philosophy and, ideally, would subscribe to his guidelines. But there are a number of factors in the history of my relationship with my W that make it easier said than done.

Troubled

from this standpoint - this appears to be the situation:

Your W has made a rational decision to draw a boundary in her relationship with OM. OM wants more. He is upset at that boundary. Your wifes emotions, as well as his, obviously want to remove that boundary - other wise she wouldn't have been so upset and depressed.

If they continue to work together, then it is a case of who cracks first. OM will be hoping it is her, in which case she 'comes to him' and your marraige is in a whole lot of trouble. If it is him, i.e. she manages to maintain that boundary, then there is no way they will be able to work together and her screenwriting dreams are in trouble.

I think the best way out is for her to look for another screenwriting collaborator (if one is required?), preferably female, and have the strict boundary in place to begin with.

Hm. I wonder if you have to "demand" no contact from her if you're sure she would comply.

It seems like there is too much being unsaid between you. You suspect what is most likely true, and she knows that YOU know something is up.

What if you were just honest with her? Tell her that you fear she's gotten too involved with this man and it's hurting you. Tell her you wish she wouldn't pin so many hopes for her future on this guy. I wouldn't come across as angry or accusing here, but simply as hurt.

If she really is thinking of ditching him, this might be enough to make her decide to intiate no contact on her own. That way it'll feel like it was HER idea to her, and she might even feel good that she did it.

First off, I just want to thank everyone who participates in these forums. It is truly a Godsend just being able to bounce ideas and thoughts and feelings off others. Otherwise, I would have NO ONE to share this with.

Salerio, your suggestion of another writing partner is certainly one that has been kicked around. Problem is, she had been looking for one even before she hooked up with OM. She even started for a while with a female, but she left the country, and anyways, my W didn't feel she had the drive or talent necessary.

The trouble is that she sees OM as an "ideal" collaborator. She often speaks, almost in awe, of his "brilliance" and she feels "privileged" that he agreed to work with her.

That's exactly what makes it so problematic for me to put a stop to this. Given our history, and her age (42), she sees this as her last chance in life. That sounds exaggerated, but it is exactly how she views it.

Wiegee: I don't doubt that if I express those concerns, she would end it. But, as I said in my earlier posts, it is the long term fallout that scares me just as much, if not more.

As you and Salerio indicate, this collaboration could very likely just implode on its own without my intervention. If I can gut it out that long, then that would leave me off the hook. I come off as being totally supportive. In fact, the other day she even complimented me by saying she didn't know how she would handle it if the situation was reversed.

Conversely, if I do cause it to end, years from now I know I will hear about how I always undermined her.

Short term pain for long term gain???

Troubled,

If she said she doesn't know how she would have handled things if they were reversed, then she knows she has gone beyond some boundaries. That is putting it nicely.

Having read your thread I wonder if you have expressed your concern for the marriage to her? Have you expressed your concern about OM's intentions toward her? Have you suggested that working with her as much as he does, that you know he would have a hard time keeping it on the up and up?

Sometimes, expressing your knowledge as fears and concerns let's someone know that you know or strongly suspect. The NC request is only made when recovery is on the agenda. It has to be something that the WS agree's to.

At this point, I would continue as you are, but I would express the points I made above. You are indeed concerned for your marriage because: she isn't really part of the family anymore, she is focussing totally on OM and her writing, you have a strong desire to be with her and her with you.

If her separation (being with OM, withdrawing to write) continues it won't be good for the family or the marriage.

At 42 she is young, but your concerns that she will resent you if you stop this are probably valid. However, that doesn't mean you have to quietly sacrifice your marriage and family for her goals and her affair.

So think about approaching her, with your concerns for the marriage. Perhaps you might need to talk with her IC about your issues and see what IC suggests, given she presumably understands what is troubling your W.

A gentle proactive manuver or two might help you and her see things in a better light.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ February 05, 2005, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: hanora ]</small>

Troubled1, maybe this will serve as the Piano. If she is not having a physical affair that is strictly the decision of the OM. She has already made herself available. I was and am in a similar position. OM is single and 11 years younger. No matter what the reaction you get by confronting her it will pale in comparison to the reaction you'll have when you're confronted with you're worst nightmare.

I have a suggestion. Why don't you ask all the FWS on this board to give you a glimpse of the pain and guilt of their experience post A. Maybe you can show your wife what you're trying to save her from. I have always only had my W's best interest at heart but like you tread very, very lightly. I can tell you without a doubt my W would wish I would have interevened and is dissappointed that I did not "protect" her. Fog talk but definitely some truth in it. I sat back like you are and how we both wish we could go back.

Wow. That "fears and concerns" thought on discussion seems pretty smart.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If she said she doesn't know how she would have handled things if they were reversed, then she knows she has gone beyond some boundaries. That is putting it nicely.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not neccessarily JL. She has always been more jealous and suspicious than I ever was. I attribute that to my er, "experiences" prior to our marriage compared to her lack of same.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Having read your thread I wonder if you have expressed your concern for the marriage to her? Have you expressed your concern about OM's intentions toward her? Have you suggested that working with her as much as he does, that you know he would have a hard time keeping it on the up and up?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I have not expressed concerns specifically about this because (a) I have NO definitive proof that anything untoward has occurred (or as some would have it, the piano hasn't hit me yet); and (b) once I do express it, I'm certain she would agree to terminate the partnership. And then my troubles would begin.

As I keep trying to explain, she is happier now than she has been in a very long time and a lot of that has to do with the fact that she has found a "writing partner" so she can pursue her "long suppressed dreams".

I could handle a blow up from her. That doesn't scare me. Hey, I have absorbed those here and there from her for years. The part I can't handle is the terrible strain from her ongoing deep resentment that I have "always" required her to sacrifice for me and the family, without allowing her the opportunity to become "successful" herself.

So, if I do confront her, or even just "express my concern", and thereby end this collaboration, due to my unfounded(?) fears, I am likely sentencing myself and my kids to a lifetime with a miserable W.

Your suggestion about talking with her IC was one I have been seriously considering since the IC does know exactly what the issues are. I am not sure what the ethical/professional issues are. When I mentioned to my W about my seeing her IC (I said we could go together for MC), she was very resistant to the idea. This surprised me because for years she had urged us to go to a MC.

Walkingoneggs: I can identify with your moniker. In my case, my W actually points to the fact that OM is 14 years younger as an indication of how absurd the notion of an A would be. But, given your experience, I'm getting nervous again.

In many ways she is very open about this partnership and how she feels discomfort that people might get the wrong idea. Call me naive, but that reassures me.

Update:
W got together again last night with OM. She even dressed so "youthfully" -- jean jacket, funky hairstyle -- that it made me more uncomfortable. At least this time they ended up in a public place (a pub) and she told me a lot about their discussions - on various neutral topics (unlike last time when they had just parked and had an intense conversation for 5 hours and she had nothing to tell me about it).

Afterwards, she was in a much more up mood this time than previously. I am thinking that they had a confrontation last time and it has been resolved (I speculate that OM wanted more than she was willing to give and now OM accepts this).

So I am staying optimistic that the worse is over and that things will work out for the best. But, I will keep looking up, in case that piano starts falling.

Troubled, as a woman, do you know how I would feel if my H closed his eyes and never raised a peep about my "relationship" with another man? I would feel like he didn't care. It would make me very suspicious if he DIDN'T express his jealousy and discomfort with my relationship with another man. I would be hurt and might think, the heck with it, my H doesn't care anyway so I may as well carry on with someone who DOES CARE. I suspect your wife KNOWS she is doing very wrong and is just waiting for you to stop her. But you won't and it all spirals out of control.

The OM and your wife may be on the outs THIS week, but continued contact will resolve that. I assure you of that. They can't stay mad forever and he has a perfect opportunity to restore the relationship since she is continuing contact and her H won't raise a finger to stop him from "being more than the OM."

I suspect that one of your W's emotional needs is ADMIRATION and AFFECTION and that is the vulnerability the OM has penetrated. Have you tried to identify her emotional needs from the EN's questionaire?

Let me give you another analogy. I am a recovering alcoholic with 18 years of sobriety. I loved to drink back then and it made me very "happy" to escape into a drunken stupor each and every night. However, it was DESTRUCTIVE. Destructive to me and to my family. My DH put his foot down finally when I brought another man home [complete black out that I am certainly not proud of!] and told me I was to quit drinking NOW or leave. I knew deep inside that what I was doing was terribly wrong but just didn't know how to stop myself. While I was FURIOUS at my DH for a while, I was secretly RELIEVED that he loved me enough to stop my downward spiral. He literally saved my life and I am grateful to this day.

Now lets look at my sister who is one year younger. She is also an alcoholic and has not drawn a sober breath in the past 18 years. Her DH will not confront her because drinking makes her "happy" and a confrontation would destroy the "peace" in the family. [we won't address the fact that this family walks around on eggshells all the time lest they set her off on a drunken tirade, hardly what any thinking person would describe as "peaceful."] He thinks that if she just tries a little harder she could probably control it but she is not "that bad". His family has gone through hell all these years because my BIL does not want to disturb the "peace" momentarily.

The bottom line is that a loving spouse is obliged to intervene when the other spouse is doing something self destructive or destructive to the family. It is an obligation. My BIL has sat by and allowed his family to endure this sick, dysfunctional existence because he is AFRAID to incur my sister's wrath. He is a COWARD. He is not thinking of what is best for my sister or his kids, but what is easiest for him to endure.

My DH endured 18 years of REAL peace because he risked one month of hell. My BIL and his family has endured 18 years of hell because he won't risk one month of hell. Because my BIL did not stop my sister, someone else will. Probably the police when they throw her in jail for drunk driving.

The parallel I see with your dilemma is that you are allowing this to continue because your W's destructive behavior makes her happy. But does that mean it is good for her? Or your family? No, it doesn't. Destructive behavior NEVER brings happiness in the long run, only in the short term. And never is short term happiness a justification for destructive behavior.

Melody:

I hear what you're advocating, but I still think the situations aren't quite the same. Your sister was undeniably alcoholic, and there is no possible long term gain in that. In my W's case, there is nothing certain, it may just be an innocent friendship and a fabulous "career" opportunity.

No question, if I had any evidence of an A or other "destructive" acts, I would intervene in a heartbeat. Believe me, I am not just taking the easy way out (besides the emotional stress, I become a "single dad" whenever she is out for the evening). I am just trying to balance the pros and cons of the 2 options and figure which is better for the long term prosperity of our marriage and family.

UPDATE: Acting on advice from a number of posters, I contacted her IC and tried posing the basic question: What would best serve our marriage -- my continued support of her writing partnership or putting an end to it?

The IC responded that she could not ethically answer me, particularly without my W being present. However, she kept urging me to tell my W that I had called her up with this question.

I have to think about that one.

Troubled1. I thought I saw that your wife was 42. Mine was 41 when the ONS occured and OM 29. I have since attended 2 birthday parties in honor of other man. Ridiculous? Absolutely but like you I justify what I have to, to keep the peace. How I wish I stepped in long ago. But my situation is not necessarily yours. But I would point out that a younger mans interest in a woman going through a little mid-life crisis is truly intoxicating. It is a tremendous leap to go from EA to PA for most people I suspect. So this same situation can drag on and on while she decides. In that time I would urge you to pay very close attention to all the signs and see if the relationship, a)cools b)status quo or c)intensifies. If it's (c) then you need to step in as Melody has suggested. But yes it is a high wire act for sure.

Troubled

There is no doubt in my mind that you have to raise this issue with her - and do it soon. Lots of good advice on what to say and how to say it. Don't be critical, express your concern and love for her and your relationship.

IMNSHO, you are risking far more by waiting and watching than by acting.

Troubled:
Since I was the one that initially brought up the piano falling on your head analogy, I now believe it has fallen on your head but it bounced off without you realizing it. What do you think your wife would say if you said you parked in your car for 5 hours with a beautiful younger woman and just talked together for 5 hours and when your wife asked what did you talk about you replied nothing?
I believe the counselor already answered your question if you read between the lines.

I think you should read and reread what Melody has written you. I am sure if and when this affair may culminate your wife will say that you acted like you didn't really care. You sound like a very intelligent man but you are wrong on this issue. Let me ask you this: would you be able to accept later on that your wife had an affair and your could have stopped her but didn't? 5 hours in a parked car with the OM and she could not remember what they talked about? Oh Please....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Troubled1:
<strong>Melody:

I hear what you're advocating, but I still think the situations aren't quite the same. Your sister was undeniably alcoholic, and there is no possible long term gain in that. In my W's case, there is nothing certain, it may just be an innocent friendship and a fabulous "career" opportunity.

.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Troubled, "innocent" relationships don't result in emails where the OM says things like he "wants more" from the relationship. "Innocent" relationships don't consist of a married woman going out every night with a younger man or sitting in a van for 5 hours past midnight. There is NOTHING perfectly innocent or appropriate about that.

The analogy is EXACTLY the same in more ways than one. Just as my BIL, you deny the OBVIOUS so you won't have to address the problem. He has been saying for years that maybe she is not an alcoholic because he has "no proof." Drinking every day isn't enough "proof" for him. Sometimes people just don't WANT TO KNOW the truth.

Troubled, I know this is off the point a bit, but there's something here that doesn't make sense to me. I'm a writer too, and I can't understand why your wife feels she needs to collaborate with someone. Granted, I've never been much into play/screenwriting, so maybe that's different. The times I have been assigned to work with a partner, though, it usually annoys me to no end. Why does she think she needs that?

Despite the insistence of Salerio, Bryanp, Melody and most others, I am (naively?) sticking with the strategy outlined by walkingoneggs. I am tracking things closely, and if there is any sign of intensification, I will act.

I don't want to give the impression that my W is getting together with OM "every night". Other than seeing him occassionally at work, she gets together, at most, once or twice a week.

Also, that infamous 5 hour parked car session was, I conjecture, a major confrontation in which she likely drew a line with the OM who had wanted more than she was willing. I figure that she won't tell me about it because she believes it would upset me and undermine her case for continuing the writing partnership, which she is convinced can still proceed -- on her part anyways -- without any kind of EA involved.

Bottom line is that I still believe that she has no intention for an A. Yes, I know most of you have "been there" and know better. I also believe that walkingoneggs is exactly right that </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> a younger mans interest in a woman going through a little mid-life crisis is truly intoxicating </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">. So, if she is just enjoying that attention, I am happy for her.

I guess the part that troubles me is: why hasn't she been open about it with me? The only thing I can think of, is the reason I gave up above about jeapordizing that "partnership". Of course, with her female friend (and probably her IC) she has been open. [She must be real open; the latest email from her female friend mentions a dream the friend had involving my W and the OM and erotic imagery!!]

The other part of all this, which I haven't really emphasized, is that my W is not emotionally very healthy these days. Call it mid-life crisis or true depression, but she will spend hours in bed crying on a sunny afternoon while I try to tend to the kids, or in a volatile state with seething angry outburst at the family.

Maybe I am just tolerating this whole "partnership", because it enables some of the few times that she seems happy and positive anymore.

There is none so blind as he that will not see. I was there. In hindsight, I should have intervened. If she cannot be honest with you about the 5-hour conversation, your projection of what happened is a huge speculation, and even if correct, the fact that she cannot tell you about it is reason enough to be concerned to the point of intervention If you are right, there is no reason she would withold that information if your marriage was healthy. He would not approach her if he was not getting at least some signals from her that she is available. My wife said "No." to the OM for some weeks, but all the while her actions were saying "Yes." He believed her actions, not her words, and he ended up being right. She did not perceive her actions the way he or I (later, when I found aout about them) did. Had she been honest with me, I could have pointed out the discrepancy.