Troubled:

There is something in your last post that troubles me deeply. It is where you say your wife is emotionally not healty and at times just spends the morning away in bed crying. I just want you to consider that you have seen nothing yet if this goes to a physical affair and later he leaves your wife high and dry. The destruction to your wife's emotional health would be devastating. You know the OM wants more and your wife is keeping secrets from you. I do hope and wish you luck but your wife sounds extremely vulnerable and needs help for at least clinical depression. When this relationship with the OM eventually breaks up I am afraid she will be in pretty bad shape. I just hope she does not have to deal with guilt and betrayal on top of all of this. I hope you monitor the situation very closely. Going out twice a week in the evening with the OM is a big deal. I am just curious but why would she need to spend 5 hours in a parked car late at night with the OM to tell him that she was not interested? I was once where you were and went into my own fog for justification of my ex wifes actions as well so I understand where you are coming from. I think most people here want to spare you from the pain that sounds like will be coming your way. I wish you luck.

Troubled1-

Talk with her. Like johnh39, in hindsight, I think I should have told my W what I knew a lot sooner. After I told my W what I knew about OM1 things seemed to improve. We agreed to work on the marriage. However, a few months later she got back in contact with OM1 by telephone and mail. I tracked the contact but said nothing. It hurt me terribly not to be honest with how I was being affect by her actions and lack of meeting my needs. Later she moved on to OM2 and OM3. I kept quiet about this information for about three weeks. What a mistake. It just killed me.

I do not like the term 'confront'. It sounds like a war about to start. Rather, be open and honest with your W. Tell her what you know and how the news is affecting you and how you feel about the marriage. You do not have to provide details about how you found out about what she is doing. Ask her what her plans are for ending the relationship with the OM and working on the marriage. At all times, be open and honest with your feelings but do not show anger or even attempt to 'win' your W back with sympathy. You will need to convince her through your actions that it is in her best interest to meet your emotional needs. You are right that this is a very delicate matter. How you act now and what you say will significantly impact the future of your marriage.

Good luck to you.

HoFS

Bryanp, I really do appreciate the advice and support from the people here, including you, trying to spare me the pain. It helps more than you can imagine.

My theory is that it took her those 5 hours telling OM that she wasn't interested, because she IS still very interested in maintaining both a friendship and a partnership with him. Probably, the OM, much like most on this forum, finds it hard to isolate all those different levels of relationships. (Maybe it would be easier if OM had his own d%#n GF).

I need to go back and read the stories of johnh39 and HoFS. They sound too disturbingly similar to my situation. I just pray that a few months from now I won't be in the position of giving warning to an unsuspecting and troubled S.

I have decided that I should follow the advice of many, including her own IC, and go with her to a MC. I know that if I even hint that I found something out by "spying", it will be awful. Maybe I'm a coward, but I just really want this to be resolved either under its own weight, or by a third party (MC) indicating the "inappropriateness" of it all.

UPDATE: I just got off the phone with my W, having presented my proposal. She was extremely reluctant, asking "why all of a sudden?". I told her that, given her current state (depression), it was important for us to go together so I could learn strategies on how help her cope. I explained that it was all to help her and build our M. Despite all those words, she remained unconvinced. Surprising, since she can't wait for her weekly IC session.

I am beginning to worry that she just doesn't want the daylight to hit.

Your theory may be correct. But, I can guarantee you that he is not the only one that is going to have trouble with boundaries. Guaranteed. When only one person wants to maintan a boundary in a relationship, either the boundary crumbles or the relationship crumbles. I would not count on it being #2. Even if they both agree to a boundary, having it there can lead to being so comfortable with it that they consciously or unconsciously push it farther and farther ("See, we can safely do this!") until it dissolves.

Thanks Johnh39 for reviving my "dying" thread, and your thoughts on shifting boundaries. It is a concern, and you will see why shortly.

I haven't posted for a couple days because I've been concentrating on my strategy of getting us to a MC. W has been putting up unbelieveable resistance even though I point out how much she depends on her IC sessions. She claims it would be too much for her to take on now and that things between us are perfectly fine these days thank you. But I now know that is, in the parlance of this forum, fog talk.

Even when I point out that she has threatened numerous times to leave our home -- as recently as this past weekend, she responds that it has "nothing" to do with me, only her general frustration with the kids and housework and suburbia.

Her new idea, that she can't stop pushing, is for some short-term "escapes." She would really like us to buy a second house downtown as an investment and where she could set up a room -- with computer and a futon for her work. She has gone so far as to speak with agents and brokers. But since it is impractical currently, she is now intent on spending couple days at a time at a downtown hotel -- supposedly to be "alone".

By the way, did I mention that OM lives downtown???

I now really do need some advice on snooping. As it appears likely she is going ahead with this downtown hotel plan pretty soon, how do I find out if she has any "visitors"? It is impossible for me to spend hours behind a newspaper in the lobby, since I will be left with our kids to care for. Is there a cheaper method than hiring a PI?

It is killing me that I am even thinking this way, because I have always completely trusted her and her honesty and innocence. But, having her run out of the room and locking herself in the basement for over an hour yesterday when OM called, is pushing me very hard. I think I see the piano falling.

Troubled,

You can get software for the computer that tracks key strokes. You can get devices that record phone conversations, I would do that NOW.

But, mostly you will have to finally admit to what is so abundantly clear: she is having an affair. Her focus is no longer on you and you know it.

Please consider even a PI, but be warned that if she rents a room and sees him you are only going to hear that she is WORKING with him. Yup, even to the wee hours of the morning. You will probably need to get phone, email, or some other evidence. This can be done.

I am sorry it has come to this, but your W does have issues.

God Bless,

JL

Troubled:

I am so sorry to hear what is going on. Please do not allow her to rent a separate hotel room downtown. I would rather have her in the basement at home where there are boundaries then having her spend the night at a hotel with the OM where there are no boundaries whatsoever. You know in your gut what will happen if she has a room and is "working late at night with the OM".

There are no boundaries here. My friend either she is married to you or not. A married woman does not do this. This is way beyond acceptance.
We know the OM wants more based on the 5 hour conversation. A lonely woman in a hotel room at night. This is so horrible for you and your children. You must not allow this. You must put your foot down and say enough is enough. Her actions are so humiliating to you and your marriage. You are fearful that she will be sad and withdraw. Well you know what? That is just too bad. When you are married you cannot conduct your life like you are free and single. It seems apparent that you will not intervene until you have proof that she has been sexual with him. My guess her determination to have the hotel room indicates it may have already occurred. I am fearful that your reluctance to stand up to her and stop this maddness will result in various negative consequences for all involved. Please stop this before it is too late if not already.
I wish you luck.

A cheap snooping method is to attach a voice activated tape recorder with the attachment accessory (from radio shack) to your telephone line where it cannot be seen or detected. You can also place a small voice activated recorder under the car seat to record when she is speaking on the cell phone. You could get a P.I.(who can pretend to work for the hotel) to bug the telephone including minature video cameras in the downtown hotel room that your wife wants to use. The more information you obtain the more you will be able to make the right decisions. Good luck.

<small>[ June 04, 2003, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: tomaz ]</small>

Thanks again Bryanp, JL and Tomaz. But something occurred last evening that was so devastating to me that I don't know how I can recover. I have read the discussions on this forum about EA vs. PA, and never could quite comprehend how bad an EA could be. Until now. Please bear with me as I give the gory details.

As you know, my W has been pursuing (actually, more fantasizing than pursuing)her screenwriting dream. Although, I have tried to be as supportive as possible to her (which has gotten me into the whole OM mess to begin with), deep down I am highly skeptical.

However, a great opportunity came up (partially thanks to a connection I made) for her to get a p/t gig at the local cable station. She was thrilled at this possibility for a jumpstart entry into the world of TV/film.

As is her usual manner, she couldn't decide whether to apply; bouncing between what a fabulous thing it could be and the idea that no one would want someone at her age (42). But I knew that this was, unlike screenwriting, a REAL thing. Even better, unlike screenwriting, OM has absolutely no role here. As even she admits, OM couldn't get in the door due to his total lack of any relevant accomplishments or experience (of course she doesn't see that with the screenwriting).

Yes, finally, here was something only the two of us were in together! So I went at it: I pushed and prodded, I spent hours on her resume and application essay. And it worked...she got called for an interview from amongst hundreds of applicants.

But, when the Program Manager called to invite her for the interview, my W actually had the gall to ask if she could bring in OM also (who hadn't even applied)!!! I was stunned, not the least of which because it could have damaged her own chances. But, I let it pass and concentrated on prepping her for the interview and bolstering her confidence.

After the interview she was, as usual, certain that she had failed, to the point of tears. I kept reassuring her both physically and verbally in anticipation of the phone call she was to get last night. I even composed a thank you follow-up email from her to the Manager. I thought of how I would hug and kiss her and take her out for drinks if she did snag it.

Well, apparently the phone call did come, and she got the coveted position. I say "apparently", because I never really did find out. After that call, while I was running about shushing the kids and keeping them out of the room for her, she immediately called OM, shut the door tight, and went on talking for hours.

She knew I was going out to play ball later on, but that didn&#8217;t seem to concern her in the least, she just kept on yapping away with OM. A couple times before I left I even &#8220;interrupted&#8221; for some concocted mundane items. Her response was simply to cover the receiver and glibly tell me that she would talk to me later, obviously anxious to return to her intense conversation. I lingered for a while, missing the first 20 minutes of my game, walking back and forth where she could see me through the French Doors. But it was all to no avail. Finally, in complete frustration and pain, I left.

When I returned home&#8230;over 2 hours later&#8230;you guessed it, she was still on the phone, but had moved down to the increased privacy of the basement behind closed doors. It was fairly late and our young kids were still running around, having not done their homework or even gotten ready for bed. They confirmed that she had remained on the phone practically the entire evening.

The sense of loss and betrayal I feel is unbearable. It had been like I was drop kicked in the gut. I doubt I would have felt any worse if I had discovered them in bed together. Here was something WE had built and shared, and who does she run to when she gets what was probably the best news she has had in years!?!

I had been pushing for MC for us, now I don't even have the desire. I have turned cold to her and she knows it. I don't know where to go from here.

And the worst part about an EA is, she can say: "We are just friends", and actually convince herself that it is true, thereby making it almost impossible for you to fight the relationship without "educating" her, which is not usually constructive to your relationship. You must spend more time with her, and do a good Plan A. Don't give up yet! In fact, if Plan A does not work, go to Plan B.

Seriously, now that you understand how big a deal this is (the piano has fallen), go back and re-read everything in that link in my signature line. More Cerri on Plan A (and B)

<small>[ February 05, 2005, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: hanora ]</small>

Troubled:

I am so sorry to read of this latest event. My heart goes out to you. It goes beyond comprehension that she would dismiss you in such a way after you went through all of this trouble for her.
The only positive thing here is that the blinders are off and you now realize how bad this situation is. I see that the love you have for your wife is eroding and rightfully so.

Please sit her down and tell her the consequences of her actions will be the end of the marriage. You need shock therapy and you need it now. It is clear she see her life totally wrapped around the OM. You simply must now allow this to continue. Hopefully the shock of the end to her marriage may knock her out of the fog and then again maybe not. The fact is you now know where this is heading. You no longer have a marriage and you have become a roommate who takes care of her financial and material needs and the OM who she now loves takes care of her emotional and possibly other needs as well. The bottom line is that you cannot have three people in a marriage.
No consequences to her actions equals no motivation to change. The question is she willing to throw away her marriage for this guy? The fact that is she will do everything to get the OM a job with her. How great is this for the OM.

It is now time or overtime to take action and ask yourself what is it that you want and what is it are you willing to accept? Are you willing to accept being the third wheel in this marriage?
You sound like a really good guy but enough is enough already. This madness must stop and it must stop now. I just keep thinking what a horrible message she is giving to your children. Nobody deserves to be treated the way you are being treated. I wish you luck my friend.

I would not confront her until you have consulted a lawyer to protect yourself, and confirmed that there is EA/PA by taping her telephone calls, and having a P.I. observe your wife's meetings with this OM. Physical evidence is a lot more powerful than circumstancial evidence.

Hi, I haven't been around for awhile, but I just have to echo Tomaz and others on the snooping and evidence and lawyer and PI stuff.

Your wife is emotionally "married" to the OM. Why do I say that? She has "foresaken all others" for him. She has put him before you. She makes a fool of you for his sake. She has put him before your kids.

Personally, were I to spend 5 hours parked in a remote place "talking" to someone intensley, I would have to get out of the car to relieve myself. How long can the average female hold her urine? Especially after she has had kids?

Five hours - even a young guy must have to get out and water the flowers.

I think there is a sonnet that goes something like "With you conversing, time has no meaning" and it is a love sonnet.

Do your homework, do your paperwork, do whatever you need to because you'll need to make a case before the judge. Honest, you have a divorce looming on the horizon. Either she leaves you and the kids to be with the OM or she stays with you in name only and rationalizes her love affair with him.

The others here gave you good counsel. The best. They learned the hard way. Now, please do the phone counseling with the Harleys.

Be well.