I really need some advice, please. I'm sorry this is so long. Background: My H had a 7-month affair with a mutual, married “good friend.” D-Day was 1/9/03; heavy-duty Plan A for the 5 months since then. After some sporadic contact, my WH and OW agreed on 3/28 to try not to contact each other any more because “it was just too difficult and too painful for everyone involved.” My WH said he wouldn’t promise, he would never say never (he said he didn’t want to make any promises he wasn’t 100% sure he could keep); he just promised to “try not to.” And he has never fully recommitted to our marriage; he always says he wants to take things one step at a time, and he’s always “waiting for the dust to settle.” Nonetheless, I’ve been doing what I think is a very good Plan A, reading all the books, meeting his EN’s, trying to learn from this experience, no LB’s (very few, anyway). He’s been reading the books too and seeing a therapist, and things seemed to be going pretty well overall. In my mind we were in recovery.

However, a couple of weeks ago I started to lose patience with “waiting for the dust to settle.” Last Friday we had a big talk, and I told him I’ve been feeling like our efforts to get past the A and work on recovery have been somewhat lopsided. He agreed, and said that he’s just “not there yet” (meaning he’s not ready to recommit and work on our marriage). He announced that “the affair isn’t over yet.” When I asked him what he meant by that specifically, he said there hasn’t been any contact, but he hasn’t been able to sweep his feelings for the OW under the carpet either. Now he feels he needs "space" to sort things out. After he said this, I told him I felt that the past 5 months may have been a waste of time, that we should have just separated when we first discovered their affair. He said he doesn't feel it's been a waste at all, that the past 5 months have been really good and have made him realize how good things could be for us again and that he really does love me, but he hasn't been able to sweep his feelings for OW under the carpet. So not only does he still have feelings for OW, he's now "in love with two women."

He says he doesn't want to rush into anything, he just wants to take it slow, one step at a time (as if we haven't been doing that already). Ideally, he'd like us to figure out a way for him to have space but still stay together as a family (so as not to hurt the kids, and so he doesn't risk losing me). Apparently he was envisioning a half-baked situation where he would be free to "explore other options," which might mean meeting/being with other people -- maybe OW, but not necessarily. But it would be "private," somewhat secretive, like an affair (in other words, have his cake and eat it too) -- no one else would have to know about it except us, and of course, I would be free to do the same.

I told him I could not and would not stay together and pretend that everything is normal while he does whatever he wants with his “space.” I was quite clear that under no circumstances would I be willing to go along with that scenario. I think I finally got through to him that if he wants space to carry on something outside of our marriage, that we must get separated for real. I got very specific about what separation would mean: living apart, maintaining two households, sharing custody of the kids, not doing things together as a family, and explaining everything to the kids and other family members. Once this sank in, he backed down somewhat (especially when we got to the part about explaining it to the kids and his family!). He says he's not sure yet that he needs or wants to do this, he just wanted to raise it as a possibility (although it keeps coming up again every day). I do think he's testing me to some extent -- to see just what I'm willing to put up with or not. In many ways it's not much different than it has been: he's not ready to fully recommit, but he's not ready to let go of our marriage either. He has also convinced himself that if he doesn’t go forward with his plan (which initially was to extricate himself from our marriage slowly, over time, thereby causing the least amount of pain) or at the very least make an attempt to have “space” and be a “free agent,” he’ll just be returning with his tail between his legs. (I do feel hopeful that if he couldn't bring himself to leave me and our kids during the height of their affair, the chances of him doing it right now are slim unless things take a drastic turn for the worse.)

So here’s my confusion: I told him I definitely do not want to push for a separation (which I would try to carry out as Plan B) and if it comes to that it'll be his choice, but I’m beginning to feel it might be the only way for us to move forward. My fear is that is by the time his relationship with OW crashes and burns and he decides he really does want to work to restore our marriage, I will be too angry and hurt to ever recover from it and we'll be past the point of no return. The really hard stuff will be done (I will have extricated myself from him emotionally, we'll have already traumatized the kids, we'll have figured out how to live separately and independently, etc.). I’m afraid that separating will lead us even further away from ever working things out together.

On the other hand, I don't think we have much hope of moving forward together if he's still harboring fantasies about OW and isn’t ready to put his energy into our marriage. He says, “You can’t work on our issues all alone. You need a fully involved partner, and I’m not there yet.” All this makes me think that maybe he needs a strong dose of reality. I have no doubt that the affair will get rekindled, but hopefully will crash & burn when exposed to the light of day and the harsh reality of the day-to-day situation.

Can anyone out there offer some advice?

Has he learned the MB concepts? It sounds like you've done a good plan A, but if he's not in, then get him into MB. If necessary, call for a counseling session.
It sounds as if he's being honest with you, and the site says the A is like an addiction. It does take time to get out of your system. Check in with the Harley's, it sounds like you are doing it right, you just need reassurance that you should continue plan A or move to B.

No, he's not into the MB stuff. He has been doing some reading (Infidelity by Lusterman, and Private Lies by ?) but he thinks he has a pretty good handle on it. You and I know he's in the fog, but he doesn't get it and I can't force him too. That's one reason why I'm thinking it might be time to "force" (or reinforce his idea) of a separation...

The other catch is that separating is not really possible right now. We actual bought another house in another town and are (were) planning to move before school starts in the fall. But the 2nd house has been torn apart and needs to be fixed up before moving in. I think my H is thinking that once the house is ready it'll be really easy to just start spending time apart without making anything "official" -- he'll just start staying here while the kids and I are there. However, knowing that's his plan (he has talked about this) but still trying to carry out Plan A is so hard! On some levels I think I have the patience of Job and can just continue on with Plan A and wait to see what happens, but on other levels I find myself getting really angry and I'm afraid I'll just shut down from him, build my walls back up again...

BS in NE,

I would caution pursuing a separation if you can verify that there has been no contact. Even if there still is contact it still merits Plan A as long as you can handle it. The affair will run it's course. The goal is to outlast the affair. If you are losing your love for him, then yes Plan B is appropriate if he is still in contact. However, if there truly is no contact then Plan B really is not appropriate. I know this is tough, but you need to consider that you may be pressuring your H into something he is not ready for. The fantasy fog still has his mind. He is probably severely depressed and confused right now. If you can outlast the affair, and are still living together your recovery would be much easier. I am currently separated and the reality has finally hit home for my WS. Unfortunately, since we are separated, it is quite difficult for me to meet her needs now. Or at least it makes it quite a bit harder. If D-Day was in January, then according to Dr. Harley you are very close to seeing it's demise. My WS took exactly 8 months to see the light. Now she is in a severe state of loneliness, depression, embarrassment and generally feeling stupid that she could ever consider a life with the OM. Consider that the pressure to move forward in your marriage may be an LB (Disrespectful Judgement). I know how bad u want him to get with the program (As do I with my WS) but we have to let them see the light for themselves. God Bless and keep your chin up.

I hate to say this but there probably is some continuing contact. I have a cake-eater WS too. Contact can be by telephone, mail or E-Mail. It's an addiction which is likely being fed.

Steve Harley told me unless you have definite proof that there is no contact assume there probably is contact.

Sorry.

I would suggest that you edit the topic name of your first post to something like HELP ME PLEASE. You can do this by clicking on the paper and pencil icon and then change the topic name. That way you are likely to get help from the MB veterans.

<small>[ May 29, 2003, 07:42 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

SteveX: Thanks for your thoughts. I do think you&#8217;re right, it&#8217;s too soon for Plan B. I think I can go a ways further with Plan A, it&#8217;s just really hard right now at this point in time. We just had another short talk tonight and it seems like he sees a separation as sort of an &#8220;experiment&#8221; that he must follow through with, one that he may very well come back from or maybe not. I&#8217;ve told him several times in the last few days that I think we have a golden opportunity to work on our marriage and make it be what we both want, and the chances of that working are much better than his &#8220;experiment.&#8221; But he doesn&#8217;t buy it. (I haven&#8217;t said this part yet, but my reaction is that I don&#8217;t want our kids and I to be his guinea pigs while he goes off on his selfish experiment.) I think it would behoove me to let off with the pressure right now.

Mimi1234:
I think you&#8217;re right too. I do suspect that there may be some very recent renewed contact (phone calls). Both the OW&#8217;s husband and I (we were all friends, and he and I remain in occasional e-mail contact to keep each other apprised of our situations) check phone bills, etc. and we&#8217;re both suspecting something very recent.

The hardest part of this right now is feeling like such a doormat. He tells me he wants space, isn't ready to work on our marriage, I say OK Honey, I'm still here loving you anyway. You get the picture. Thanks for the support...

BS

Just wanted to say you have my sympathy and thoughts. Your situation is uncannily close to mine, in terms of the attitude shown by your WH and my WW.

I asked my WW to leave the house because of ongoing contact with OM. Reluctantly she agreed and was gone for about two weeks. During this time I still saw her every day - she was in our house seeing our D. I found it much easier to plan A in this scenario, as I had more time and space to vent and get rid of the negative emotions before 'putting on the show' when she was there. Now that she is back - insisting on her right to stay in the house (and to maintain contact with OM <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> )- I am finding it much more difficult.

I would say stick with plan A as long more as you can, and let the 'trial' separation happen - that will make it easier for you to move into plan B if and when you need to.

What I have had to accept (which is hard to do) is what my WS is saying is only babble while he is in the fog of his addiction. My WS also basically says he needs space, not ready to work on the marriage, but wants me waiting around for him.

What this really means is, "I'm not committed to MY WIFE . Pursuing a relationship with the OW is more important to me right now. I don't care how much this hurts MY WIFE . I only care about myself and what makes ME happy."

It hurts for us to admit this but isn't that what they are really saying? I'm coming to terms with this slowly but surely.

Take Care. It's a long and difficult road that we are traveling.

<small>[ May 30, 2003, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

I disagree about a Plan B only happening if there is continuous contact with the OW. I think a Plan B can occur when the WH is unsure about staying in the M. A Plan B gives the WH an "experiment" in what it's like to not have his needs met by the BS.

My FWH and I are working out arrangements for a separation because he is not happy in the M (not sure he's happy in his life at all).

A Plan B is useful for someone who is sitting on the fence. It also has given me a break from the stress. Last night was his first night away and I slept very well. It is very hard work meeting someone's EN that just isn't happy, and doesn't meet your needs in return. A Plan B is as much for you as it is for the WS.

Perhaps you and he can talk about how to separate so that it has the least amount of impact onthe kids.

It sounds to me like a Plan B is inevitable. Have you thought about what you would write in a letter? Or what the boundaries woud be?

As much as I hated to face it, I have come to realize that PLAN B has been the best thing for me too. They say they're not happy in the marriage, with themselves, etc. What they really want to do is to pursue the A.

The separation is awful but, you're right, STILL HERE , its so much better than waiting and wanting and getting nothing in return.

I think part of it to is I'm not as disappointed any longer. I had high hopes and expectations of how a M should be and I was getting let down. Now that he's gone/leaving, I don't have as many expectations.

I can begin releasing the resentment for not getting my needs met all these years. And if this is just a break, then I'll have a cleaner start when it works out. And if it's for good, then I'll be getting used to it slowly, not abrupt.

Thanks for all your replies. It really helps me see to things more clearly. We had another looong talk this morning, during which I tried to reiterate to H that I think a separation is a real slippery slope to start down, especially since we haven&#8217;t done all we could to put our marriage back together, and that in my view separation should be a last resort. He still doesn&#8217;t buy it; he has tried to paint a rosy picture of it (we&#8217;ll all be better off in the long run, it&#8217;s something we really need to do for personal growth, the kids will be fine, blah blah blah). And he thinks we have been working on our marriage for the past 5 months (though admits his heart hasn&#8217;t been in it) -- I guess because he&#8217;s still here, hasn&#8217;t run off with OW (yet). What&#8217;s really been going on is my Plan A. I pointed out that we still have never gone to marriage counseling. He has been unwilling; all he really needs is to work on himself and me on myself, and then whatever happens, so be it. I explained (again) that I think marriage counseling is a crucial step, even if it&#8217;s to figure out how to get separated. He finally agreed to it! This feels like a major breakthrough! So my mission right now is to find the right MC. (I have heard some horror stories&#8230;)

As we were wrapping up our talk, I asked him (once again) to not rekindle anything with OW as long as we are still living together as husband and wife. If and when we get separated, he&#8217;ll be what he calls a free agent. For some dumb reason, I then added that if he isn&#8217;t able to stick to it (if he slips up, or whatever) that he be honest and tell me so I know what I&#8217;m dealing with. I asked him to play fair with me, with all his cards up front, not hidden behind his back. He said that seems fair, and he agreed to that. (Mind you, we&#8217;ve had this exact conversation several other times and it hasn&#8217;t panned out.)

I still think a &#8220;trial&#8221; separation is inevitable. Logistically we can&#8217;t do it for a couple more months, but with him agreeing to marriage counseling in the meantime, things aren&#8217;t looking so dire. I feel better able to go forward with Plan A for a while longer. (Unless I get thrown for another loop!)

Thanks again for all your support.

--------------------------------
Me (BS) - 45
H (WS) - 51
Together since 1980, married since 1989
D -13
S - 10
6 month A w/ mutual &#8220;good friend&#8221;
D-Day - 1/9/03

Remember don't believe him about NC. Is he accountable to you about his time? Usually when they want to separate it is to spend time with OW. Try reading LOVE MUST BE TOUGH by Dobson or try his website. I found his approach to be extremely helpful in my situation.

Take Care.

I'm praying you make it to MC but don't build your hopes up. Be cautiously optimistic.

He sounds to me like he's in the FOG, speaking that ALIEN TALK.

To take a reading of his REAL motivation for the separation, ask him how he envisions it happening. If he begins making grandiose plans without taking the house and finances into consideration, then you'll know he's motivated by selfish intentions. He's looking out for what HE wants. If he makes a well thought out plan that takes the family into consideration and gives everyone time to adjust, then maybe he is motivated by personal growth.

I have a feeling you have come across the first motivator though. And you sound like you are doing what you need to protect yourself.

Have you considered phone counseling with the Harley's?