Orchid, and anyone else who can answer this, please help.
Read the thread other day about come backs for babble, can't find again, questions for that thread, but w/ twist.
I have the silent, stonewalling passive aggressive H.
What are the snappy come backs for that behavior?
ie: what can we do together to make this a mutually satisfying thing?
SILENCE or i don't know.
ie: How should I have handled that differently
SILENCE or I don't know.
ie: what would you like to see happen?
SILENCE or I don't know.

ETC.
See the pattern?
Oh yes, I forgot, I'll think about it (yet, I never get the reply.)

Natuarally, this is just a bit frustrating. And, yes, I do turn into a stark raving lunitc, by his standards. By mione, I break down and cry out of shear frustation and DO beg for something, anything. You know, I have only "yelled" , i think twice, Yet I am accused of yelling nearly every conversation. I am accused of "beating " him "over the head", from my perspective, I am reminding him of promises made and broken.
I need strong, snappy come backs for SILENCE>
I know, I know, put it out there, remain quiet and walk away. But then it is forgotten forever. Just like nothing ever happened or there are NO issues.
Don't rock the boat, don't ask any questions, Status quo, don't make any "demands", blah, blah, blah.

2nd Fiddle,

Believe it or not, mine was the same way. Had to do some pretty off the wall stunts as a result. Here's what I did:

1. when BS asked a question, ws replied with 'I don't know'

a. Wait until Ws asks a question, then say I don't know.

b. Ask the WS, how am I suppose to ask you a question (this one may get an I don't know response that may make you furious).
1. If the WS retorts with I don't know, respond, yea me too.
2. If WS gives a sarcastic remark, if you can say, yea me too or I didn't know you were like that..... something to put it back in his lap.

2. Ws replied with stone silence.
a. I started filling in the blanks. This one infuriated him and I didn't do it much.
b. I would look with sadness.
c. This kind of outright rudeness angered me, so to combat it one morning I started 'talking to the wall.....literally. I softly and gently told the wall, how I felt and cried. I told the wall, I loved my H and family (I did not say I just love my H - to me he had an A and did not deserve to be told that I love just him besides we were a family), that I am trying hard to understand what is going on but having a hard time, I am trying to better myself but not sure why, I wish my H would work with his family and not be sooo angry with us, etc. After about 10 minutes of this one sided conversation, lo and behold...... the wall spoke. The WS gentle came from behind and put his arms around me. I have no idea if he was smiling or not, I had too many tears streaming down my face. Anyway, I continued to talk to the wall, and he responded to my questions with my back faced to him. I didn't ask a lot of questions just a few. I only did this a couple of times, then our communication started to improve. He had a lot of anger and felt he couldn't handle it well. At that time I encouraged him to see a MC or call Steve, he got angry but later he found an IC on his own and visited her a couple of times.

He began to see that what I was saying was not something Orchid just made up...... I needed that outside opinion from a non-fog head stranger.....someone he paid good $$$ for....why? Because he wanted sooo much to believe what he and OW had was somehow right but he could not find anyone other than the OW to validate it (good thing he didn't fine the TOW board - LOL!!! ).

Remember the point of babbling back is:
1. Remove the blame from you back to the WS where it originated and belongs.
2. Relieve some stress from the BS.

IMHO, the purpose of talking to the wall:
1. When the WS can't face the BS and the BS 'needs' to say something(s) to the WS.
2. Relieve some stress for the BS

Of course, these are what I have done and can't say it will work for everyone. I had a very prideful and stubborn WS to contend with. Many internal personality disorder issues he had to contend with. Until I learned what I was responsible for and what I did not contribute to, then it was still a challenge but it became easier to navigate through this A mess.

L.

Hi,

I needed to add that 'before' I started talking to the wall:

1. I made sure the Ws was within earshot.
2. I spoke in a gentle and kind manner.
3. I did cry because I couldn't help it.
4. I introduced myself to the wall (I know this sound funny but understand the circumstances), I told the wall that I needed someone to speak with and it seems my H can't have a 'conversation with me'. I told the wall that I have some things to say and hoped it could lend an ear.

It is important to speak from the heart in a gentle and calm way.....crying is ok. Speak softly so he has to strain to listen but not too soft. Have a box of tissues near by.

This is not to be construed as a performance. Instead it is a excercise in helping yourself. It may look funny but I don't think many will be laughing. You can even mention that it looks funny so you can remove this as an item. If he does laugh, go ahead and join him. At the end, I thanked the wall for listening to me. Told the wall, wasn't sure how much he could do (I called the wall 'he') but that it helped (didn't say who it helped).

L.

Hey, I'm not Orchid, but I deal with silence and I don't knows all the time.

In the last few days, I tried something that seems to be working.

I just backed off. Out of desperation, I just backed off of my pointless obsessing on him and the R.. and very consciously focused on ME. That's something I can control. And I set out to do things that would be good for me, regardless of how the M turns out or ends. I am not doing this instead of my plan... but in addition to my plan. My plan is getting me no where as far as I can tell. So I am diversifying my life/time/energy so that I can have some areas that are not failing.

Once I got to thinking of what was pointless, I realized that all the R talk, my crying, my asking, my probing, etc is not working for me. So I decided to just shut up. I decided that I'd make a little pleasant convo, but not bring up anything risky. And otherwise, I'd be quiet. I'd be on the computer, or read, or watch TV... and give him a chance to feel the silence right back. Not to retaliate, but under the assumption that if he's being silent, maybe he wants silence.

Well, last night he actually opened up a little. He actually mentioned that conversation seems strained, and that just hasn't had anything to say. But that he'll try to talk more. And, he shared his feelings on something. And, he made a soft joke, about one of his unreasonable behaviors!

I know these are baby steps, but I am encouraged. I guess my point is, when something is not working-- you have to change.

One of the things I realized, is that when I get so many I don't knows from him... because it's on my mind, I end up deciding on answers myself. And they are getting sort of "set" in my mind. If I encounter them again, I think I'll say, "Gee I was hoping you could give me your perspective on that. I guess I'll end up figuring it out the best I can alone, I hope what I figure out is accurate/represents your perspective fairly." And then I'll drop it, and not bring it up again.

I think sometimes you have to let go, and switch things around. What can it hurt? Nothing I WAS doing before was working, so I don't have much to lose. I think just shaking up the status quo is helping. I know it's helping me.

Hey All:

What can be a response to "I Understand" when it is obvious that he doesn't. That's his favorite response to my profound statements.

WS: "I don't want you to take this (not coming home or contacting you) to mean that I am not thinking about reconciliation"

Me: "How else can I take it? I need to figure out how to go on with my life"

WS: "I understand".

I want to say. "No you don't understand. If you did, you would not make such crazy statements."

Hmmm, how about "what do you understand?"

Or, "I wish I beleived that. I don't think you understand at all."

Just options..... I'm only guessing.

Hi fiddle,

I have to tell you this--while I was reading your post I was thinking: Ok, who's impersonating me and using another sn while they're doing it??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I remember considering asking for advice but I don't remember if I did or not--I might have been able to find old posts that dealt with this.

Anyway, I did something similar to talking to the wall--I talked to the coffee pot. I didn't "introduce" myself like Orchid did, but did say "Well, I guess it's me and you" then poured a cup while talking to the coffee pot like an old dear friend.

There's more.....

Whenever I got the silence or the I Don't Knows I simply said "I'm going to go get some coffee".

That led to more....

If my H was in the room I was drinking my coffee in, I "hugged" the mug, make comments aloud like "Oh that feels so good and warms my hands"...

In time, I started making m-m-m-m sounds after taking a sip....which sometimes turned into *moans* (I hope you're getting my drift <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> )....

That led to....

There were times that I was met with silence or I Don't Know--and it was immediately followed by H wanting SF. I was either silent, and then said "Oooo, a cup of coffee sounds good right now" or I answered "I Don't Know", put a pondering look on my face, turned off the pondering look, then said "I think I'll have a cup of coffee"--and took it to another room away from him and did lots of m-m-m-m-m's.

There were times when H called from work--and I told him that I was having coffee and would call him back.

There were times when H was home and said something then got angry because I didn't answer--I said "Hm? I wasn't paying attention, I was drinking my coffee". Sometimes he would say it again--and I said "I'll talk to you about it after I'm done with this cup of coffee".

Doing many "coffee things" like this led to....

My H started asking if I would put down the coffee for a minute and talk to him. I did--every time. Sometimes I did it right away and then gave him my full attention, sometimes I took another swallow or two and put it down like it was a difficult thing to do and then making it appear that it was a struggle to give him my full attention but that I was trying really hard. If I didn't like how he was talking to me I would "steal glances" at my coffee cup.

It got to this point....

H would call from work and ask if I would talk to him or was I having coffee at the time. He would either volunteer to call me back (or say I guess I'll have to call back later) or ask me if I would talk to him while I was having coffee.

Eventually......

H started setting up a pot of coffee for me before he went to work and would call me and ask me if I enjoyed my coffee that morning.

A couple times a week we started having a cup of coffee together before he went to work.

H got a coffee grinder for me to try out--I love it!

This hasn't happened but....

Wouldn't a coffee mug be a really great gift for him to give me? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

All this started out with trying to learn Orchid's Reverse Babble. I'm still not sure if I understand Reverse Babble, but I still love my coffee and it's an integral part of my life! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Take care fiddle

P.S.--Sometimes in response to I Don't Know, I would ask who would know, who does he talk to--his friend at work, someone else, who should I ask? Eventually I started saying things aloud like "maybe I should call so-and-so, I'll have to think about it"--but I didn't say this unless I was prepared for the ROAR out of H, which was sometimes followed by him answering the question <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hey All,
Thank you for all of the relpies. I am releived to know that I am no the only BS with this issue.
Orchid: I love the talking to the wall thing. This might work. I will have to psych myself up for it 'cause I really don't know where I would begin. I know that I will need to start with just one thing at a time. Say, a "minor issue" to begin with for practice. I, for a split second, thought of the verbal prayer to God but then thought that prayer could be a personal thing and too easy for him to excuse himself from the room for.
Loving Boundaries: I would have a cup of coffee with you any day. I can understand how this one might work as well.

BUT, I think that i have stated before, perhaps in a differnet post, that my H is desparately trying to prove to himself that I am a lunitic. You know, to get him off the hook. Then he wouoldn't have to take any responcibility cause it would be all of my "fault" cause I am insane. Gotta love that unconditional loving support from the ones we love the most.

Squeak: I have tried backing off, and actually, spend most of my time in backoff mode. Status Quo Man HATES "confrontation", to the point of hating to be told that his socks don't match. He does not understand that "conflict" is good, it's the process of resolution and/or the outcome that can be either good or bad. H will start to shine and be really "rescue loving" if I have remain silent long enough. "Things have been going really great lately", yah, bulls**t. I do point out that it is just because I have kept my mouth shut and have made no "demands". He quite frnakly doesn't acknowledge any negativity that had been happening. And even though I have remained silent for weeks, I still don;t get any in the sack, I still don't get frequent and voluntary "I love you"s, nothing, just a flat line, put up with you very politely with pleasnat smiles, this is how a wife is treated, there isn't anything more I should be doing attitude. STATUS QUO. DON'T ROCK THE BOAT. Aggrevatating!!!
But, I will try the walls.
Thankyou ever so,
And oh yes, from my first letter JOCK ITCH/MASTURBATION? nothing has changed. had our rescue now shut up sex thurs night and nothing since. Was in the process of the very slow seduction( butterfly fingers tracing the his fingers) and he huffed and pulled his hand away. What gives? I thought he said that he ALWAYS says yes if I ask. I think that I need to come right out and grab the family jewels to get my point across to him, but that doesn't seem very seductive to me and I am not that crass.
heavy sigh

2fiddle,

If he is trying to prove you the lunatic that you aren't, then face that statement head on. Start out talking to the wall because you have an Ws that and then begin your list.

1. Thinks you are crazy for trying to treat him like a normal person.
2. Trying to deal with a man with a major itch
3. Need to learn how to communicate to this guy since his socks don't match (or other issues).
4. Identify what WS ENs you feel you are meeting.
5. List the ones you think you are not meeting both his and yours and ask how can this be met for all involved (you and him).

This discussion to the wall can go on.....you are getting this right? Now prioritize your discussion to get the important things in first.

re: He may have a short attention span. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Don't evade his threats or anger, learn to meet then 'wall on' (instead of head on) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

BTW, I like Lovings coffe mug story..... very good! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

L.

<small>[ June 16, 2003, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

Gawd, I am scared. For one thing,, our anniversary is this coming weekend and I am not up for rescue anything. I want the real thing, but need to accept what ever I get, I guess.
Orchid, you are a dear. Truly.
The whole prove I am insane thing scares me to death. That's the way he treats me. That is his validation for everything.
I have got to be brave.
I have been thinking of the wall's and my first date. I am nervous. I don't know if I should bag it until after the anniv. or what? I hate being treated as though I am a fragile lunitic. If I am fragile, it's because my heart seems like it will stop beating if something doesn't budge, SOON.
I am not looking forward to the following week filled with polite platitudes, just so I won't freak before our anniv. Nothing special, just polite platitudes. Like I was just telling Chikar, I could be anyone, no one special, actually not even treated any better than a pleasant polite business assiciate. I have a problem with that. I want to talk to the walls so badly, I want the walls to tell me that our anniv. will be a new beginning and not just a rescue-shut-up faked and strained situation.
I need a hug, I am going to cry