I am new to this site but I am in a difficult position. I am in an affair with my best friend, who is my other best friends wife and she is my wife's best friend. We have known each other for years and finally expressed our true feelings even though we should not have. Both of our spouses have been unfaithful. How to we stop this affair without hurting each other or our spouses and keep our friendship because that is what is most important to us.

bb,

You can't. You can't have everything you want. You can have your marriage....or your friendship, but if you try to have both...you will end up with NOTHING. This is a train wreck waiting to happen. Buy a copy of "Surviving An Affair" and go to the part of the forum called "Just Found Out" there are lots of similar stories over there and you can hear first hand the devastation it causes.

Hi BB,

Well you need to decide what you want. There are several posters here who have sat on both sides of the fence. So do you want to save your M or not? Have you read his needs/her needs and surviving an A? Do you think your W wants to save her M also?

L.

I understand what everyone is saying but we have known each other longer than we have known our spouses. we both want to rebuild our marriages but we still want to remain friends. so u r tellin me there is no other way beside total isolation 4 the rest of our lives

IMHO, yes. What you and your 'friend' have done is broken the vows you each took with your respective spouses.

Do you think it is safe to your individual marriages to associate with someone who is that untrustworthy?

I am not saying you are both worthless, but you are not good company right now. What would you say if your son or daughter were doing what you and your 'friend' did?

L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by bballplayer:
<strong>I understand what everyone is saying but we have known each other longer than we have known our spouses. we both want to rebuild our marriages but we still want to remain friends. so u r tellin me there is no other way beside total isolation 4 the rest of our lives</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly. You have created a situation where you have to now choose between your marriage and your friend because of your betrayal. You will be lucky to even walk away with your marriage at this point, much less BOTH.

player:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">we both want to rebuild our marriages</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's good. Go to the "Concepts" section of the website, and read everything. Including the part about Radical Honesty, and the Policy of Joint Agreement.

When you're done, I'd suggest that you call the MB counseling center and set up an appointment for yourself (call 888-639-1639). That will help you prepare for you telling your wife about the affair. That's your first step. One of the things you could attempt to "negotiate" with the POJA is whether you could remain "friends" with this other couple.

It's highly unlikely that your wife will be "enthusiastic" about such a prospect. This is one of the reasons for the "no contact"---it hurts your spouse too much to be worth it to the marriage. There's not a way around it---you'll have to go straight to your wife and make a decision that you both can enthusiastically agree to.

K, I know you have been here far longer than I, but "No Contact" is not subject to the POJA. Harley says repeatedly on his radio show that without "No Contact", marriages cannot be saved. I know there are exceptions to everything in real life, and you can point to exceptions among posters on this board, BUT, this is unlikely to be one of those cases. They have such a long history together, that they will always be a threat to the other's spouse. Always.

You use the POJA (discussions) rather than make a demand.

Also, remember, bballplayer is the ws, not the bs. He is not going to demand that he no longer has contact with the ow. He is going to "negotiate" his not speaking with ow in return for ? (counseling, not throwing him out, etc.)
This doesn't mean he should continue to have contact either. But if both get something out of a deal, then both win (POJA).

<small>[ June 18, 2003, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

john,

I agree with Harley 100% here---no contact is really a nearly absolute requirement for marital recovery. I can think of a handful of posters here who have made it work (more or less successfully) without NC, but 98% of the WS's who continue to have contact will fail to restore their marriage.

But as Chris points out, the POJA is a tool to get to where both spouses need to be (in love). You can't force someone into a no contact situation---no matter whether you, me, Chris, Bill Harley, or God himself gives the order. I use the POJA/negotiation illustration to demonstrate how the MB principles apply to EVERYTHING. You don't demand (a lovebuster). You don't threaten. You discuss.

In a POJA discussion of such magnitude, I can imagine if ballplayer brings up the "I want to remain in contact", an equally reasonable solution for his wife would be "I want a divorce." Or a separation. Or his nuts on a necklace. After all these good (or bad) ideas are carefully and thoughfully presented, you need to evaluate those that are still in the running, and reach a consensus. If you can't---then you go back and brainstorm some more. In the process of negotiation, ballplayer may see how unsustainable his request to remain friends is (are we talking "Top 10 fog lines, or what?). It's usually a better approach then a demand.

I would guess that if you asked Bill his opinion on the use of the POJA for this, he would agree (the POJA is a cornerstone of MB principles---No Contact is more of an end result of the employment of Radical Honesty, POJA, and the Rule of Protection). He would also say the marriage is doomed if NC isn't eventually in place. If ballplayer's wife was here, I'd be advising her to Plan A to attempt to negotiate an end to the affair, and then Plan B if this is unsuccessful.

I was talking to a friend yesterday who is divorced and he said that somethings are better left unsaid. Now being that our affair hasnt gotten completely physical yet besides some hugs and kisses cant we just walk away and bury it? Wouldnt that save alot of grief and stress? also "No contact" would be virtually impossible becuase our kids play together and her husband and i play rec together? do we just avoid speaking to each other at all times?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I was talking to a friend yesterday who is divorced and he said that somethings are better left unsaid. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh the irony. You prefer to take advice from a divorced friend than from those of us who are doing everything we can to fight for our marriages. And do you know why yet? It's the easiest answer. I think all the MB members will agree with me that having a good marriage is NOT easy. Doing the right thing is not easy. Being honest with your wife that you're doing things behind her back that would hurt her is not easy. You and your wife need to be a team, and you cannot be a team when one player is following their own rules without the other's knowledge. Be honest with your wife now. At the very minimum, you two can make a plan together that helps ensure you never have time alone with the OW. We have members here who have tranferred to other jobs or moved to different cities to ensure no contact with the OW. You still believe that you can fix this yourself without your wife ever knowing. And you keep stressing how important this "friend" is to you. That very importance is what threatens your marriage and the happiness of your children.

We at MB understand the fog, and you are very clearly in it. You have forgotten what's important. You have forgotten your sacred duty to provide your children with the best childhood that you can. You've forgotten your holy vows to "love, honor, cherish, and protect" your wife. Can you honestly say that your actions are now doing any of that for her? The best way to fulfill those vows is by being honest with her that your marriage is in danger and allowing her to be a part of fixing it. Even if you can stop this affair from continuing, the lies and betrayal will be an invisible barrier between you and your wife. It's hard to let yourself truly love and respect someone who you are deceiving.

There are a number of WS's on this board who have been where you are. Read their stories and see what kind of hurt they are recovering from. There's a lot of wisdom here to be had, if you're willing to open your mind and see it. You've made a step in the right direction by coming here. The fact that you had the clarity of mind to see that there's a problem and seek help is a great factor in your favor. You have a hard path ahead of you, but you're at a point now where it's very fixable. Putting the effort into it now will make for a much easier recovery.

I've not seen Dobie post before, but I give that post an 11 on a scale of 10.

ballplayer: Here's the simple deal here. You

1. Call 888-639-1639 to get professional coaching for you and your marriage. You listen and take the advice. Everything after this is supposition on my part (based on my year of counseling with Steve Harley)

2. You come clean with your wife.

3. You eventually use the POJA to decide what to do with these friends. Because this entanglement (friendship) has gone on for "years" would indicate to me that not only is no contact the way to go, it may need to be enforced by having one of the families move.

It's your own damn fault here---you did not take the necessary precautions to protect yourself from an affair (no close opposite-sex friends, never discuss marriage problems with opposite sex friends). And right now, you're playing the fog-bound WS to a "T". Take this advice now---the longer you go, the more it's going to hurt.

hey Dobie....great post!

UPDATE! Well i took you guys advice and we are no longer seeing each other. We sat down with our spouses over the weekend together and told them what had been happening. They were pleased that we didnt have sex but very upset at the situation itself. I refered all of them to this site and we are all going to try and work on our marraiges. So it has been a very hard for both of us to let go but we are trying.