Hi,
I haven't really posted here in a long time but I've been lurking for awhile. I need some help with my no contact. It's been 2 days of no contact now and I am having a really hard time with the withdrawal. I am the WS and I was involved in an affair for the past year and a half. My H is wonderful and I must say that he's forgiven me and I know he's having alot of pain but he is reaching out to me and he wants to save our M. D day was about 1 month ago, I told my H because I couldn't live the lie anymore. My H knows that I've been in contact with OM but we both know the NC is the best thing. Anyways, the problem is that I don't really fit into any of the categories for why people have A. I mean, my H is a wonderful person and he's very attentive, etc. It wasn't an exit A or any of the other A that Steve talks about in SAA. I would really like to figure out why I had the A in the first place so I can help prevent it from happening again. I sometimes think that it might be because I was young when we got married, 21 but we dated since I was 16. So, I never really got to "date" others and be swooned over and I don't know if I'm just missing that and that's why I had this A or what. As I said, H has always been wonderful and I really can't blame any of this on him.
I haven't spoken to OM since Thursday (2 days ago) and I am having a really hard time not picking up the phone. I think the hardest thing for me is that we had been so involved in eachother's lives for the past year and a half and I know so much about him (i.e: his kids, this parents, his routines, etc). It's really hard to give all that up. I often find myself wondering if he's thinking about me and I need to stop caring about what he may or may not think about me. OM used to tell me all the time that I was "the best he had", etc and I wonder if he still thinks of me and of us and of what we had. I guess there's a part of me that hopes he still loves me and will always regard me as "the best he's ever had". But, that's what I need to stop. How do I stop obsessing about what he may be thinking or if he's thinking of me, etc?? I know some people here have said that whenever you are thinking about OM that you should call your spouse and talk to them but that's not really possible in my situation because H can't take personal calls at work. I REALLY need help because I want to make this the final NC, I don't want to slip. I want to overcome this sickness once and for all. Please help me.......

<small>[ June 23, 2003, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: new*life ]</small>

Welcome to MB,

You wrote of the OM saying "that I was "the best he had", etc and I wonder if he still thinks of me and of us and of what we had."

What was it that you had to make it better than your M? Write it down on a piece of paper and have the reality of what is really was/is vs what you really have in your M.

Then you might find that your situation isn't sooo far off from many of us here.

Have you and your H taken the emotional needs questionnaire? Have you both read his needs/her needs by Dr. Harley?

L.

new*life,

I applaud your desire to go to NC, and I don't want to hurt you....but I'm going to tell you some things that smart a bit....because I think it will help with your no contact. So please bear with me, and remember that I am saying these things to make you stronger.

You don't fall into a category (my H didn't either) because your act was a completely selfish one. You risked everything because of greed, and youth and foolishness. You know that your H doesn't deserve this, and never did...why not be worthy of the kind of love he is offering you instead of wallowing in the selfishness of this act? No matter what your pain in withdrawal is....HIS is far greater. If you don't believe me...imagine for a second that you have walked in on your OM having sex with someone else....THAT is what you have done to your husband who loves you. When you feel weak...concentrate on the person you wish to become and not on your loss, because the loss and destruction you have wreaked around you is a travesty that thank goodness you wish to correct! There is good inside of you if you nurture it, nurture your spirit and nurture your marriage. No good will come of your relationship with that OM. Of course forbidden fruit is attractive....but it will never in a million years compare to the joy of learning to appreciate and cherish the life you can have with your husband.

Withdrawal is painful...but it subsides. You should talk about it with your husband....ask for his help....I know you don't think so, but I can promise you that honesty will help this situation. Yes, it will cause your husband more pain...more pain on top of pain....but it will also give him the tools he needs to understand and address the situation at hand. You aren't protecting him...you are being dishonest to him. Protecting him involves honesty, openess and PLAN to help you be strong. Face the consequences of this act....even if that means facing the fact that you have to hurt this man even deeper...that is part of what it REALLY takes to find remorse and healing.

Good luck to you.....I truly wish you strength and happiness.

Out of curiosity .... is the OM in your affair married?

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Reading your first thread on MB titled confused,please help!! and this last one, I get the impression that this MAY not be your only A, am I right?

<small>[ June 21, 2003, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Hi everyone and thank you so much for responding. Pep, yes the OM is married. He is actually quite a bit older than I am.... so he has a wife and children. I have no children. OM's marriage was on the down slide before I came into the picture (not that that matters). Anyways, Pep, in one of your emails to Blah you were talking about filling the "empty hole" yourself and not with someone/something. I understand what you are saying and I think that I find myself through others. I mean, I find my self esteem, etc through how others respond to me. How would you suggest that I fill that hole myself? I would love to be able to be happy by making myself happy but I really am at a loss as to how to do this.
Orchid, I think that what made the OM more "attractive" then my H is simply the feelings that I felt during the A. As I said, I find myself through others so when the OM told me that I was "the best he ever had" it made me feel wonderful. What doesn't make sense is that my H tells me the same thing but it doesn't feel as good or affect me as much as it does coming from OM. I love my H terribly but the thing is that sometimes when I look back to before we were married, I feel that the reason I got married was because it seemed like the "next thing" to do. Let me explain: As I said, my H and I have been together since I was 16, he was 19. He pretty much grew up with me in the sense that he went to my proms with me, he was at my confirmation and also at my highschool and college graduations. He was/is my best friend. But, as far as us getting married I guess it just seemed like that's what was supposed to happen next. I remember wondering before I got married if I was "settling" because I never had that feeling like alot of people feel when they say that they knew there spouse was "the one". I never felt the fireworks with him, it was always more of a "friend" connection. When I look at my H, I don't lust after him and It really makes me sad because I want to feel this for him. So, I think that the whole A brought about these new feelings in me and it was so tempting that I failed and gave into it. I want to feel this love for my husband, I want to lust after him and just look at him and feel that I need to make love to him right here,right now. It feels more like a roommate situation than anything and I don't know how to change it. We've tried the whole "Dating" thing and sometimes I feel that I need to be away for him to be able to feel love for him. (What I mean is: you don't know what you got until it's gone). I know this is ridiculous thinking but sometimes I wonder if we actually seperated if it'd show me what I actually do have and make me miss it and long for it. I really am lost and I really do want my M to work because he's a wonderful guy. I just feel very lonely sometimes because I wonder if I'll ever feel the way for him that I did for OM (and I realize that what I had with OM was a lie, but dang it sure felt good to be alive and have something to look forward to each day).
St*rfish, thank you also for your reply. I appreciate your openness with me and I think I need to hear alot of what you said. There's just one thing that I have a hard time with and that's that I know my H is hurting, I know that I've betrayed him worse than he'll ever be betrayed but I feel horrible and selfish because I don't feel guilty about what I did. I mean, I feel bad and I wish I could take everything back but I don't look at my H and feel this horrible guilt for what I've done. Please don't think that I'm trying to be insensitive because the fact is that I want to feel Guilty, I want to feel his pain but it's just not there. I think that if I felt it then it'd be easier for me to say goodbye to OM once and for all. Sometimes I wonder if I've lost all my graces with God because of what I've done. I wonder if I've lost my conscience and my chastity, etc. I really want to turn my life around and I really need help with all these issues. Please, if anyone can relate or if anyone has any suggestions I would greatly appreciate it. I am struggling today really hard with not contacting OM. I try to read books (right now I'm reading alot of Max Lucado) whenever I get tempted but it's so hard.

Thank you,
new*life

TMCM,
You are right, this isn't my first A. This is my 2nd A. I have to say that I hate writing that and I hate having to face the truth but it's how it is and I am so lost. After my first A, I felt like everything was on track with my M and all but then along came OM#2 and I fell right back into the same sickness. Read the last post that I just wrote and it explains alot of what's going on with me. I want to understand it and understand what is lacking w/ me that makes me vulnerable to this. As I said, it's not my H, he's wonderful. It's something with me and I know that it's selfishness and other things but I need to understand how to "fill the hole" in my life myself and not have to fill it with these A.
Does that make sense?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's something with me and I know that it's selfishness and other things but I need to understand how to "fill the hole" in my life myself and not have to fill it with these A.
Does that make sense? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NL that may have made you susceptible (like an alcoholic is susceptible to loose control of his/her intake of alcohol) but I don't beleive that it and of itself explains the real reason why you had 2 A's. No, I truly beleive that it was your violation of The Four Rules For A Succesful Marriage that was the culprit. Consider this:

1. You broke The Rule Of Honesty by not telling your H about your feelins for OM#1 and OM#2.

2. You broke The Rule Of Protection because you knew your relationships with both OM#1 and OM#2 would be devastating to your H but you did it anyway.

3. You broke The Rule Of Care after your two affairs began because you stopped meeting your H's important EN's.

and

4. You broke The Rule Of Time because you avoided spending time with your H.

Think about it for a minute, and ask yourself if you had NOT violated all of The Four Rules For A Succesful Marriage if both of your affairs would have even been possible.

I don't know if you will ever be able to fill that 'hole' you have but unless you faithfully commit to follow all of The Four Rules For A Succesful Marriage , the chances of history repeating itself are still very high.

Being brief and blunt today .....

You need personal therapy.

This board is not therapy.

Having an affair is not therapy.

Are you willing to face the challenges of therapy?

Pep

PS .... if you wish to tweak yourself in order to experience guilt ..... call the wives and the children of the OM's from your past and confess to them.

..... now, I really don't think this is a good idea, because you would be hurting THEM again .... but you could perform this by proxy.

Here on MB ..... write a letter of confession to each wife and each child you have hurt by your choices.

List the things you stole from them ...... see if you can poke a guilt or remorse response from yourself.

Not feeling guilty or remorseful is not a good thing. it puts you at risk for an instant replay.

I really think therapy is in order.

Good luck to you. I wish you wisdom and growth in your future.

Pep

Hi NL,

Thanks for replying.....your personal recovery is a long journey, your M recovery is another journey. Once you recognize this then it will take as long as it once seemed. Your goals of recovery are attainable.

Please read this thread from Trueheart. He is a Xws and now he is an 'H'. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Trueheart's letter

Trueheart wrote a letter from a WS' perspective. Please read it. He wrote it for my Ws (at the time) and when my WS read it, he 1st called it hogwash (that's the gentle version) but he knew that Trueheart spoke the truth. Later when some of the fog cleared, he said what Trueheart wrote was accurate. Around that time, the fog started to lift and my Ws eventually (note not immediately but eventually) returned to reclaim his status as an H.

I still retain the BS title because for me, the trust factor is still an issue. It is more with me now but we have been in recovery off and on so I am skeptical. My history is all over this board. I have been posting since Jan 2001. Others have been here much longer. Still others have been dealing with these issues even longer than that and many find other underlying issues which may have contributed to the A. Not excuse it but played a role of some sort.

Now as for you not feeling lust for your H, that is a common feeling among the Ws. Mine feels, felt the same way. Why? Well for my H and when he was the WS, I was his 'comfort zone'. He found himself lusting for things just out of his reach or in areas where he had never ventured. Once dammed, he felt always dammed so he kept doing the dirty deed thinking in some sordid way, this would eventually be ok. Time told the truth. Time can even withstand the fog better than some of us. When I was ready to give up on our M and call it quits, time taught the WS that lust is a temporary emotion. Not one you can build a future on. Even though the OP (OW in our case) was promising him wealth, health and success, the reality of the matter is that their A was made him into a sick and homeless man. He lost all his friends. When I pulled back, he saw that I was meeting his most important needs. Whereas the OW in their lust wasn't meeting anything of real value. But the pull for that A addiction had a strong hold. A's are like a deadly drug. The condition it leaves you in is of no concern to the perpetrator of the A. The WS and even OP are just pawns and victims. However, so are all others (ie: family, friends, workmates, schoolmates, relatives, God, homes, work, pets, neighbors, businesses, etc.). All for what? A definite temporary 'enjoyment of sin'. In reality that is what it is but that is a conclusion you just can't read, you need to understand it in your heart and mind.

Breaking this A habit is not easy. If you have had more than one, it will be harder but not impossible.

You have an array of services and tools to help you, including this board. Learn your tools and use them wisely.

take care,
L.

Pep,
I agree that not feeling guilt is a bad thing. And, I agree that I could benefit from Therapy. The truth is that I have seen an IC in the past (actually 2 seperate ones) but neither one of them has said anything that I find helpful. I mean, they always talk about the reasons most people have A and I tell them that I don't think that I fit into these categories but they don't listen. They don't think that it's bad that I don't feel guilt and I feel otherwise. In fact, I feel guilty that I don't feel guilty. Like I said, that's not to say that I don't feel bad for what I've done but I guess maybe I think that I should feel worse than I do.
I know that there are millions of spouses and children out there who are hurting because of a A. And I really feel for them, I feel horrible knowing that I have contributed to some of their feelings. I just wish that I could find someone I could talk to so I can figure out what's going on with me. As I said, it's like I rate myself based on how I am perceived by others and I don't want to do this anymore. I want to like me for me and not because someone else does. I don't think I'm capable of loving anyone until I can love myself first. And I think I need to find out how to love myself by my own actions rather than by how others treat me. Does this make sense? Any words of wisdom on how to accomplish this would be great.....

P.S. I'm really sorry if I'm coming across as shallow because I sincerely don't mean to. I'm trying to be as honest as I can here so that maybe I can figure out what is wrong with me.I know that alot of people on this board are hurting and I am a minority (as a WS) and I don't mean to disregard anyone's pain, I am just trying to figure out what's going on so that I can stop this cycle in my life and hopefully have a happy life with my H. Again, I'm sorry and I don't mean to offend anyone....

O-
Thank you for showing me Trueheart's letter. I can relate to everything that he said. It's funny because I sometimes think that I had the A's to find "love" (even though I had real love at home w/ my H) but what I was doing was selling myself and wasn't finding love at all and in the end I would come out feeling more depressed and sad each time I was with OM. I think that one big thing is that my H and I have been together for so long that we have kind of run out of things to say. I mean, we know each other so well that there's nothing "new" to discover. And so that was one of the things that I was attracted to with the OM, the discovering phase. I love my H, I really do. But sometimes I wonder if it's more of a brotherly love than anything. How do I go about changing that kind of love to the kind of love where you feel romance and lust and all the things that you feel when you're involved in an A? I read the book "kosher adultery" (don't remember the author) and it's about how to have an "A" with your spouse. I read it and it helped to a point but I still can't seem to feel like he's my romantic partner more than he is my brother or roommate.
Can anyone relate or has anyone been in a similar situation?
NL

Who is the giver vs the taker in your family? My H said he never had those feelings for me either...... yet he was the one who had to convince me to get married. Go figure. So he has a hard time using that excuse on me. \

Now I understand about your being tooo familar or comfortable with your H to lose those feelings. Maybe the lust and father figure image was a challenge of sorts for you. Whatever the reason, bringing the romance back into a M, will take the efforts of both the H and W.

So what are each of you willing to do? Hm....? Good conversation starter, eh??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

L.

I think you come across as being very honest with yourself and your feelings. Does your husband also know about your first affair? If not, then you need to be totally honest. How do you think you would have reacted if the roles had been reversed? I know I am going to get some heat from other members but it really sounds like you do not have love and respect toward your husband that is needed in a marriage. I just have a hunch if your husband told you that he no longer respects you being his wife since you have engaged in two affairs now for over a year; and that he now wishes to move on and be with someone he can love and who can love him your mindset would change dramatically.
The fact that you do not have any guilt being sexually and emotionally involved with other men behind your husband's back says a great deal. Move on so your husband can truly find someone else in his life who can love and appreciate him and not be with someone who has no guilt in disrespecting, humiliating and betraying him as a man and a husband.

Orchid,
Thank you so much for responding....It really helps me to know that people are willing to listen and try to help.
I would say that certain times I'm the giver and certain times I'm the taker. In other words, I think that I'm the taker when it comes to feelings. I mean that I think I tend to need affirmations from my H more than he does from me so I guess he gives that out more than I do. But, I am the giver as far as the financial situation. My H is a full time student and so I'm the "breadwinner" so to speak. I also do all the bills, the housework, any legal type stuff (such as refinancing, etc). So, I am the giver there and he is more the taker. I've asked him for help with that and he seems to be interested intitially but then he just says that it's too hard for him and he doesn't understand much of it. Don't get me wrong, he does alot around the house too (takes care of dogs, helps with laundry, etc).
It's interesting that you say the "father figure" might have been a challenge of sorts. I think that in a way it is only because like I said, I get my affirmations from how other people respond to me (because my self esteem is probably low). But, I don't know why I was attracted to the older man. I mean, seriously it wasn't a physical attraction intitally and I never had any problems with my father growing up- we are pretty close- but I often wondered what role that had to play in it as well.
My H and I were dating and stuff after the first A and things were going ok. But, still, I could never develop the feelings of lust for him and it seemed like it was always forced or that I did it for him. We don't seem to have alot to talk about anymore and we really try and we go out to eat alot but it seems like we go as friends more than as lovers. My H isn't really the romantic type, I mean he tries occassionally but it's never really anything spontaneous. He'll be really good about it for awhile but then he'll just stop being the romantic again. I try to do little things for him all the time: I buy him little gifts, I cook his favorite meals, I even took him on a surprise trip last year for his 30th b-day. I do things to show him I love him but I feel that he doesn't try as hard as I do to let me know I'm special and worth the effort.

NL,

Now you have given us something to work with...... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Have you read the book his needs/her needs? Have you and your H taken the Emotional Needs questionnaire?

You are not alone in this issue. I found many areas where we are similar yet, I am the BS and giver.....H is the primary taker and not very romantic either. But he is trying. In his litte way, he is making strides to improve and I need to not set the bar too high and disappoint him.

See it takes 2 to make a M work. Even in the romantic field. Your H may think he is being more romantic than you think.

Here's a story..... just to make a point. I had a cute little dog named Fluffi. She was part poodle and chihuahua (sp???).... Anyway she was a quiet dog and quite obedient. My parents had been having trouble with a couple of gophers in their backyard so my dad put some stuff down their gopher hole and tried to flush them out.. Those little buggers outsmarted him each time. One day, I came out on the patio to find my cute beige and formerly clean Fluffi all covered in blood. She was sooo happy. why? Fluffi had caught and killed a gopher. She dragged it to my grandmother's favorite patio chair and sat up looking soooo proud. Needless to say, I was ahgast and screamed for my 'dad'.....both parents came running. Fluffi thought she was going to get the biggest praise because this was the 1st and only kill she ever had!!!! I swear I saw that dog smile. LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

The point is that my little Fluffi acted as if she did a good thing and yet I couldn't see an ounce of good in that feat. My parents had to help me see how proud she was and all I could see was that torn up gopher with blood all on her clean fur. YUCK!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Since I owned Fluffi, I had the pleasure of cleaning her up.... another bath!!! arrgh.... the lesson I learned what what someone thinks is great, another may not. ..... and life goes on.

That happens in R's like marriage also.

Hope this helps.

L.

BryanP,
I agree with you that my H deserves someone other than me.Yes,he does know about both A's and it disturbes him greatly of course. Please don't think that I'm so cold hearted as to not feel bad about betraying my H. I feel horrible for what I did, but as I said I guess I feel like I should be feeling more guilt or something.My H is a wonderful person who deserves a wonderful person in return. I don't think I qualify to be that person and I've told him that many times, he disagrees though. This isn't a pity party for myself, I honestly know that I have done a very bad thing and now I want to do whatever I can to rectify the situation and prevent it from happening again. And I will do whatever it takes, however long it takes to make my marriage work.I know that I'm messed up inside, the problem is that I don't know why and I don't know what to do about it. You said "I just have a hunch if your husband told you that he no longer respects you being his wife since you have engaged in two affairs now for over a year; and that he now wishes to move on and be with someone he can love and who can love him your mindset would change dramatically". Again, I agree one hundred percent with you. That's what I'm saying when I say that I know what I've got but it's like I don't know how to appreciate it fully and not take it for granted. It's so easy to do when you live together and see each other every day for so many years. I don't want it to be a case of I don't know what I've got until it's gone. But, how do I get this mindset that I would have if that situation occurred without really having it occur? I know it would destroy me if my H did to me what I've done to him. I just want to feel the way the the BS feels towards their WS when they are fighting for their M.
Orchid,
Thanks for the story about Fluffi. It made me laugh because the same situation happened with our dog except that it was a mole (?) that kept digging holes in our lawn. I have talked to my H about me wanting him to be more romantic and he tries but he just really doesn't know how to be. He even bought a book about 1001 ways to be romantic or something like that. It's just not one of his strong points. I mean, even for Christmas, he never gets me a gift from his heart. He always wants me to make a list and I tell him that I just want something from him. It doesn't have to be anything big, just something from him, from his heart. OM#1 used to go during the day and when he'd come back he would have a little baggie of chocolates for me or something. One time he bought me a litte beanie baby named "fur" or "fluff" or something like that because that was the name I called OM because he had alot of hair on his back but none on his head (sounds gross now). Anyways, it's little things like that that mean alot to me and that touch my heart. They mean more to me than any big gift like a diamond necklace or something (not that I wouldn't appreciate a necklace... don't get me wrong <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) Anyways, I wish he would try more to want to be romantic. I have told him numerous times but it just doesn't seem to be something that he is very interested in. I will give him credit and say that he has tried, but like I said it's not his strong suit.
Anyways, Sorry this is so long.
NL

New Life:

I did not mean to come across as uncaring. You are a very honest and sincere person and are remorseful for the pain you caused. It just strikes me that the chemistry is simply not their for you concerning your husband. Sometimes people can be good friends but not good as spouses. I wish you to come to some sort of understanding. I think counseling and therapy is a must for you.
You both deserve to be happy in your lives. The question is whether you both want to be happy together. I wish you luck.

NL while its a noble cause to try to save your M, BryanP has a point and you need to do some serious soul searching about whether it's possible for you to change and become a committed spouse to your H. Fortunately (if it can be called that) you and your H do not have any children which would make the decision to divorce much, much less painful. If you do decide you want to save your M, then IMNSHO, you must follow The Four Rules For A Succesful Marriage and The Policy Of Joint Agreement . Yes I know I sound like a broken vynil record but if you don't then what makes you so sure that there won't be another A in the near future?