Bryan and TMCM,
Thanks again for the replies. Can I be Too much coffee woman? I think that lately I could qualify for that... Anyways, I have tried to do alot of soul searching and trying to figure out if there's any chance for our M or if we're just always bound to be "Friends" instead of lovers. We don't fight alot, actually we rarely fight. And we laugh alot together, it's just that, like you said, the chemistry isn't there. How do I figure out if I'm capable of getting that with him or if it's a hopeless case? I try to think back to the early days of our relationship and how I felt towards him then and I remember feeling the passion that a new relationship has, but again, I was only 16 so it's kind of relative. The feelings are there for my H, he tells me all the time that he has alot of passion and intense emotion towards me but I need to know if this is just something with me or if it's something with "us".
TMCM, I printed off all that stuff you outlined for me. I have read it before and gone over it but I think that I need to refresh myself with it. Thanks for pulling that stuff up for me.
Can I just say one more thing? Growing up, I never really saw my parents as being "in love". I mean, I knew they loved each other and they were happy but I never really saw them holding hands and doing that mushy mushy stuff. There was talk of my dad possibly having had an A in their early years together (he denies it) and he was a pretty big flirt and so, I don't know how much this has impacted me today. I mean, is it possible that since I grew up around this that somehow I've lost the "shock" in an A? I really am not good about writing down my thoughts but I often wonder how this affected my situation. My father and I are very close, same as my mother and I.
Thanks everyone for your help and support.

NL here's something that just MAY explain your situation, I hope it helps.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dear Dr Harley,
My husband and I have been married for 5 years. He is a very caring and wonderful person. In most ways, I cannot imagine spending my life with anyone else.

But our sex life has been unfulfilling ever since we got married, and the longer we have been married, the worse it has been for me. Prior to marriage, sex was spontaneous, creative and uninhibited. I actually thought that sex could not get any better. The problem lies with me. I do not find myself attracted to him physically any more. I try to avoid sex with him and I give him lame excuses. His desire for me is still very strong and I find myself very confused and wondered if I do not love him anymore.

I had an affair recently. It ended because my lover left the country. This man and I had an affair a few years ago before my husband and I got married. It was really only to fulfil my sexual needs, the excitement I craved, the touch I longed for from having sex with someone new or different.

Now that the affair is over, I am even more confused. I feel like I am trapped. My husband loves me but I feel choked. I don't really want to have children. I am frightened of the responsibilities and commitment that is associated with having children. I have a dog and I sometimes resent him for taking away my freedom. I feel that marriage is nonsense. I find myself challenging the concept of marriage and children. I am overwhelmed with confusion, not guilt.

I don't know if my problem is a marital one anymore. Deep down, I wonder if I really want to make things better between my husband and I. How can I become interested in him sexually again? I don't understand how that can be achieved.

A.Z.

Dear A.Z.

Your letter reflects two separate problems. The first is about a loss of sexual interest in your husband that has been growing worse since you were married. The second reflects the remnants of withdrawal that you may be experiencing after your lover left you, and that may compound the sexual problems you are having with your husband.

In this letter, I will only address the first issue, your growing loss of sexual desire after marriage. For the infidelity part of your question, I refer you to last week's Q&A column, Four Rules to Guide Marital Recovery After an Affair. But before I get to the first issue, I will comment briefly on infidelity and how it usually effects sexual desire in women.

One of my cardinal rules for married couples is never see or communicate with a former lover. And always let your spouse know who your former lovers are, so that he or she can identify the foxes whenever they are in the chicken coup. The rule is not only thoughtful (who wants to see your spouse with a former lover!), but it is also a safeguard against the affair reigniting. In your case, that's exactly what happened when your husband was out of town, your affair reignited. You had the affair to gratify your sexual need, but it had the effect of making your sexual problem with your husband worse.

When most women have affairs, even when sex with their husbands was great before the affair, it's usually lousy during and after the affair. Women usually have trouble dividing their sexual desire among several men, and an affair usually ruins sex with their husbands. So part of your sexual problem is just getting over the affair, and re-establishing a romantic relationship with your husband. Other things being equal, it usually takes about six months after an affair has ended for sexual desire to return. But in your case, other things are not equal. In your case, sexual desire has been steadily decreasing since you were married. That's the problem I will address in this letter.

Since you have been married, you have lost sexual interest in your husband. And yet, it was there before marriage, and it was there after marriage -- for another man. So there's obviously nothing wrong with you sexually. There's another problem -- it may be your personality. But don't despair. Marital problems can be solved regardless of personality characteristics.

Psychologists are known for their interest in personalities, and I'm no exception. I have even created my own names for the host of personality types I've encountered.

First, I should explain what a personality is. It is a characteristic way of approaching life that makes the choices of an individual somewhat predictable. For example, a people-pleaser personality is one where the person goes to a great deal of trouble to make sure that everyone likes him or her. So whenever a choice is made, the question this person asks is, which alternative will make people like me? That's the one they choose.

Another example is the perfectionist. This person makes choices so that when the decision is made, it is perfect in every way possible. It must always be the very best alternative. Would it surprise you to know that these people are usually very indecisive? They can't make up their minds, because the perfect choice is very elusive. I don't believe that there really are any perfect choices. But then, I'm not a perfectionist.

People usually have several personalities all wrapped up into one person. So a person might have a people-pleasing personality and a perfectionist personality. As you may well imagine, such a person would be a bundle of nerves.

I think you may have what I call the "electric fence" personality. People with such a personality walk down the road of life with an electric fence on each side of the road. And they are faced with a serious disadvantage -- the stroll is at night, the flashlight they use to look ahead is very dim, and the road takes sharp turns. That makes it difficult for them to see the electric fence, and they often stumble into it. As long as these people are on the path, they are usually very happy and optimistic about life. But, when they touch the fence they get a rude shock, and will do anything to get off of it and back onto the path. Once back on the path, they are happy again.

Referring back to my definition of personalities, you can predict the behavior of an electric fence personality when they touch their electric fence -- they do whatever they can to back away from it. If you seem to be pushing them onto the fence, they will fly into a rage in an effort to escape, because it's so painful. They usually don't know where the fence is located because of the path's sharp turns, and their dim flashlight, so they are stumbling onto it quite regularly, and expressing anger whenever it happens.

Once off the fence, however, they usually return to a very happy state, and try to forget the incident. Since the path takes sharp turns, they give up hope of learning from the past experience, because the fence will be somewhere else next time. So they figure it's best to just forget the whole thing.

These people have very little insight into what makes them happy and sad. That's why I use the analogy of the dim flashlight and sharp turns in the path. When I have a client with such a personality, I often seem to understand their likes and dislikes better than they do themselves, because my flashlight seems to be brighter than theirs. I remember what their last electric fence looked like, and the next one looks very similar. Their lack of insight makes them very impulsive and great risk-takers because they don't seem to learn from their past painful experiences. But their lack of memory of failure also makes them very optimistic and cheerful, as long as they are in the middle of their pathway.

Someone with an electric fence personality is often joined by others on his or her path. Those people are not effected by that individual's electric fence. So they can wander off and on the pathway, through the individual's electric fence, and remain unscathed. They will often encourage the person to follow them, but once the electric fence is touched, he or she cannot follow. If they try to force the person to follow, he or she usually flies into a rage because the shock of the electric fence is so painful.

Obviously, the way to get along with someone with an electric fence personality is to follow them on their path, because they cannot usually follow you on yours. These electric fence people may seem very selfish and uncompromising, but you would behave the same way if you had an electric fence to prevent you from going just anywhere on the path of life.

People with electric fence personalities have a terrible time with rules, because rules often lead them into their fences. As children they have trouble with authority for the same reason. At first, they try to follow rules and obey authority, but the pain of the electric fence is so great that they soon learn to be a rule unto themselves, and they ignore what others tell them to do. Abandoning rules, in turn, usually leads them into all kinds of trouble, and many of these people end up in prison.

People with electric fence personalities are also very likely to divorce. Since they have such difficulty adjusting to someone else, they usually marry someone who happens to be on their path for a while. But when that person leaves the path, it's much to painful to follow, so they divorce and move on to a relationship with someone else on their path.

As you might expect, people with electric fence personalities also tend to have affairs after marriage, again, because the ones they marry usually leave their comfortable pathway. They are the ones that originated the saying, if you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with. So when a spouse leaves their pathway, they switch to whomever will walk with them on their pathway next.

If you have the electric fence personality, it would help explain why you feel the way you do about having sex with your husband, and why you have had an affair. While you were dating your husband, he was on your path with you, and you had a great relationship (but then, you'd have a great relationship with almost anyone who walked with you on your path).

But as soon as you married, something tragic happened. I suspect that in your effort to accommodate your new husband, you tried to follow him off of your path right into your electric fence. Panic set in as you suspected that marriage would trap you into a lifetime of electric shocks. The great relationship with your husband turned into a mess when you found him on the other side of the fence much of the time. He was no longer your friend because he was not on your side of the fence anymore.

To make matters worse, making love to him meant you had to endure those electric shocks. Instead of wanting to make love to him, you felt forced to make love to him. And people with electric fence personalities don't want to be forced to do anything. They have learned the hard way that people who make them do something are usually making them endure the electric fence, so they have a natural defense against demands.

Things went from bad to worse regarding your sexual relationship with your husband, because every time he wanted to make love to you, you felt those electric shocks. Besides, he wasn't even your best friend anymore. He was just someone you married.

Granted, he didn't make very many demands on you, and he didn't really want you to suffer. It was easy to give him excuses, and before long you did not make love to him at all. But looking at him through the fence made you realize that you and he had become incompatible.

One day a man who you had known before your marriage joined you on your road, and the passion of your earlier relationship blossomed. You probably would still be having your affair today if he had stayed with you on your path. But about the only thing that could have ended the affair, did end it. He left you alone on your path.

Now, you are again looking at your husband on the other side of the fence. You are wondering how you can get on his side of the fence so that you can have a fulfilling marriage. That's impossible, but maybe he can join you on your side.

People with your type of personality often view marriage as a trap, because they have had so many experiences trying to follow the lead of others only to find themselves shocked by the electric fence. A marital commitment to these people means a life of suffering, trying to be something that makes them very uncomfortable.

What you need a new approach to marriage that gives you the freedom to stay away from your electric fence by having your husband join you on your pathway. As soon as your husband figures out a way to get on your side of the fence, your sexual relationship will be sensational again. But where should you begin?

First and foremost, abandon your habit of being dishonest. People with electric fence personalities learn from early childhood to be dishonest because that helps keep them off the fence. When their parents tell them to do something that will make unhappy, they don't do it. Instead, they lie about it and say they did. Or, when their parents tell them not to do something that would keep them on their path, they do it anyway, and say they didn't. They get into the habit of being dishonest, because honesty gets them into so much trouble.

But you are not a child anymore, and your husband is not your parent. You can tell him the truth without necessarily getting into trouble. In fact, if you were to get into the habit of telling him the truth, you would get into much less trouble. He would discover your fences as soon as you touch them, and with an understanding that you would both back away from them, the experience would be a minor inconvenience. Before long you would be happy again, back in the middle of your path, with your husband by your side.

There's nothing in your personality that prevents you from being honest. In fact, you probably want to be honest. People I counsel with electric fence personalities usually tell me anything I want to know about them because they understand that I won't try to make them do anything. If you could be honest without the risk of being dragged into the electric fence, you would be honest with your husband, too. So I challenge you to try it out with him.

Tell your husband everything you told me. Tell him how you feel about having sex with him, and tell him about your ex-lover. Tell him that you don't want a divorce, and that you want to live with him for the rest of your life. Also tell him that want him to be your favorite lover, but your passion for him has somehow evaporated.

When you were first married, something he did, or you did, got him on the opposite side of the fence. Talk to him about what it could have been. Why was it that marriage ruined your sexual reaction to him? Was it the feeling that you were now required to make love to him -- that he now expected it of you? Was it that he began taking you for granted in bed? Did he stop giving you the time and attention he had given you before you were married? Had he stopped meeting some of your important emotional needs? Or, was the way he made love to you better before than it is now?

Think it through with each other, and don't assume that you will have all the answers right away. It may take quite a bit of searching before you discover a way of helping him over the fence so that he can join you on your path.

One question that may occur to both of you is, what if he has the same personality as I do? What if he also has an electric fence, and if he tries to join me, he gets shocked by his electric fence?

While that is sometimes a problem, the way you describe your husband, I think that it's you who is keeping him off your path, and not his fence. I would encourage you to begin with that assumption. If he expresses discomfort whenever he tries to accommodate your feelings about sex, then maybe his fence is more of a problem than I first assumed. But if you allow each other the right to escape the fence when it shocks you, the worst thing that will happen is that you sit looking at each other through the fence. Keep trying to find a way to join each other without making the other person suffer shocks.

If you can be honest with your husband about the nature of your problem, and have agreed that neither of you should suffer when you try to implement a solution, then you are in a position to solve the problem. These are the steps I suggest you take to help your husband get on your side of the fence.

1. Set ground rules to make negotiations pleasant and safe.

Before you begin to discuss your sexual problems with your husband, agree with each other that you will both follow these rules: (a) be pleasant and cheerful throughout your discussion of the issue, (b) put safety first--do not threaten to cause pain or suffering when you negotiate, even if your spouse makes threatening remarks or if the negotiations fail, and (c) if you reach an impasse, stop for a while and come back to the issue later.

Under no conditions should either of you be disrespectful or judgmental of each other's opinions or desires. Your negotiations should accept and respect your differences. Otherwise, your conversation will not be pleasant and safe.

2. Identify the problem from the perspectives of both you and your spouse.

Be able to state each other's position regarding your sexual issue before you go on to find a solution. What do you want in a sexual relationship and why do you want it? What does he want and why does he want it? Be careful to avoid negative expressions, and try very hard not to match a negative comment with another negative comment. If one of you expresses pessimism, or even anger, don't counter with an equal dose of negativity. Instead, try to sooth the person who is negative and if that doesn't work, take a break from the discussion. Avoid arguing with each other at all costs. If you can't discuss the issue without arguing, take a break and come back to it later. That's the way you will keep your distance from the electric fence.

3. Brainstorm solutions with abandon.

Spend some time thinking of all sorts of ways to handle the problem, and don't correct each other when you hear of a plan that you don't like -- you'll have a chance to do that during the fourth step. Your husband may suggest that the best way for you to renew your sexual desire of him is to just have sex with him whenever he wants. That would nail you to your electric fence for sure. Don't respond to his suggestion in a disrespectful way, just write it down along with other suggestions. If you give your intelligence a chance to flex it's muscle, you will have a long list of possible solutions.

4. Choose the solution that is appealing to both of you.

From your list of solutions, most of the solutions will satisfy only one of you but not both. However, scattered within the list will be solutions that both of you would find attractive. Among those solutions that are mutually satisfactory, select the one that you both like the most. If there are none that meet with your mutual approval, go back to brainstorming again so you can get a longer list of possibilities.

When couples have a serious conflict, I usually suggest a test of solutions before actually implementing any of them. That allows them to consider worthy alternatives even though one spouse may not yet be enthusiastic about it. The suggestions that may sound appealing may, in practice, not turn out to be very successful. On the other hand, there may be a solution that may not seem too useful, but in practice, it solves your problem.

The Policy of Joint Agreement should be your marital guide in life (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse). If you had followed it at the start of your marriage, you would have not found yourself impaled on your electric fence. Once shocked, you would have jumped back, and started to negotiate with your husband. Such negotiation would have brought him back to your side of the fence, and your aversion to having sex with him would never have materialized.

The Policy of Joint Agreement is your friend. It protects you from pain and guides you right down the middle of your path. Remember, you don't have to do anything unless you are enthusiastic about it, so it will never lead you into your electric fence. But it will lead your spouse past your fence and onto your path where he would become your enthusiastic friend and lover for life.

You now have an opportunity to save your marriage that you may not have had for some time. Your affair has ended, and you are emotionally prepared to build a good relationship with your husband. As you consider ways to improve your desire to make love to your husband, remember how important it is for your lover to be on the same path you are on. He must be your best friend, the man who you share every aspect of your life with. Try honesty and the Policy of Joint Agreement. You and our husband will be lovers again in no time.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

TMCM,
Thank you for that reply. I had read that in S.H's threads before and I too had thought that kind of explained me. I wouldn't say that I've lied alot during my life or that I fit all the characteristics of the "electric fence" personality but there are certainly some characteristics that seem to describe me well. My biggest thing is I need to know how to appreciate my H and how not to take advantage of him. Like I said, I want to be able to feel for him the way I would feel if I was fighting to keep him in this M. Any suggestions on how to get these feelings back? I know, I'm just a boatload of problems.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">new*life:

"Anyways, the problem is that I don't really fit into any of the categories for why people have A. I mean, my H is a wonderful person and he's very attentive, etc. It wasn't an exit A or any of the other A that Steve talks about in SAA." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NL here's something I found regarding the different type of A's. Do you see any of which fits yours?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Conflict Avoidance Affair

Affair Conflict Avoiders are nice ?? they're terrified to be anything but nice, for fear that conflict will lead to abandonment or losing control. They don't have a way to stand up to each other when there's a problem, so they can't resolve their difference and the marriage erodes. An "equal opportunity" affair.


Intimacy Avoidance Affair

Affair Intimacy Avoiders are frightened of getting too close, so they keep the barriers high between them. Conflict is one barrier, affairs are another. Their emotional connection with each other is through frequent and intense conflict. Often, each spouse becomes involved in an affair. These couples are the mirror opposite of the Conflict Avoiders.


Sexual Addiction Affair

Sexual Addicts use sex over and over again to numb inner pain and emptiness, much like alcoholics use alcohol. Among married people, men are sexual addicts more often than women.


Split Self Affair

The Split Selves have tried to do marriage right. Both spouses have sacrificed their own feelings and needs to take care of others, and the deprivation has caught up with one of them. The affair is serious, long-term and passionate. The spouse who is having the affair focuses on deciding between the marriage and the affair partner and avoids looking at the inner split. Most often this is a man's affair, but that may be changing.


Exit Affair

Affair Exiters are Conflict Avoiders at heart, but they take it further. One spouse has already decided to leave the marriage and the affair provides the justification. The other partner usually blames the affair rather than looking at how their marriage got to this point. Another "equal opportunity" affair.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ June 22, 2003, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

TMCM,
Thank you for taking the time to help me try to figure out what's going on with me.
In terms of the types of A's:
1) CONFLICT AVOIDANCE A- I don't think I fall under this category because I don't avoid conflict w/ my H. I'm not always "nice" and I do stand up for myself. I tell him what I need and what I like/ don't like.
2) INTIMACY AVOIDANCE A- I don't think this applies either because I'm not afraid of being intimate, in fact, this is what was appealing to me w/ the A. I liked the level of intimacy.
3) SEX. ADDICTICTION A- It's funny because I wouldn't have thought this applied to me because I'm not a sexual addict in the sense that I'm a nymphomanic, but when you read the description under this category I guess you could say that I did use sex to numb my inner pain and emptiness. I used it to evaluate my self worth (I liked myself more knowing that someone would get turned on by me or that someone would care this much about me). But this doesn't make sense either because I know that my H wants me and I know that he cares alot about me, so why doesn't that give me my self esteem the way it does coming from OM?
4) SPLIT SELF A- I don't think this applies because I don't deprive myself and as I said, I've made my needs known. However, it does apply when it says that these types of A tend to be serious and passionate. Both mine were.
5) EXIT A- This doesn't apply because I don't want out of my M, I just needed to go elsewhere for the things I seemed to need. I really don't know why I was/am uncapable of getting this at home with my H.
So, what do you think? It's really hard to say that I think I really fall into any one of these categories.............

NL

Close your eyes and imagine you receive an envleope and when you open it up it says you are now officially divorced. Your husband loves you but it will be a matter of time until one day he says I love you but I will no longer let you hurt and humiliate and disrespect me any longer. I know you do not wish to have this come true but it is time to grow up and honor your committment or move on. You need therapy because what you are doing to your husband is emotional water torture.
Do you have any idea of the images that goes through his head seeing you having sex with other men while being married to him? It sounds like you do not have a clue because if you really did you could not do these things. What do you think he thinks when you celebrate your anniversary? Don't you think he wonders if everything you did in the last year was a big lie to him? Please seek therapy for yourself and your husband. I wish your husband would stand up to you and make it clear that you stand to lose everything because I am sure it would have an effect on you.
Unfortunately you seem to think of him as Mr. Safetynet who will always be accepting and loving you no matter how much humiliation you dish out to him. If you cannot love him, honor your committment and respect him then you need to set him free or you are being just totally selfish.
I wish the both of you luck.

Bryan,
I want to move on and honor my commitment, that's why I'm here. My H has stood up to me, he has told me how I've hurt him and he has told me that the innocence and honesty of our relationship has changed for me. That hurt me alot and it hurt me to know that I caused it. As I said, I don't like that I hurt my H, He's a good man who didn't deserve this and I certainly don't deserve him. I know that he's a very exceptional man and I've very blessed to have him as my S. I just need to figure out why these A's happened so that I can better prevent another from happening in the future. I don't take for granted that my H will be there by my side no matter what. I know that if I were to screw up again, he'd be gone.
NL

My hunch would be that if your husband would have told you after the first affair that he would leave you and there would be no second chance if there was a second affair you would not have risked having this second year long affair. Boundaries are effective if they are clear and known.
I really think therapy would be beneficial to you in order to understand why you were willing to risk everything to engage in these affairs. There are many people who engage in affairs and just as many that do not. What is it about certain people that make them prone to affairs? A person's character is judged by their actions. Ask yourself what type of moral character do you wish to possess.
Most people are tempted in their lives at one time or another to stray so it is not unusal to be faced with these temptations but most do not act on them. Ask yourself why you felt comfortable for such a long time to continue with these activities?
I personally have used a mantra that works for me very well in my life. Due to my profession of being a college professor in a university that has a major party reputation; I am constantly surrounded and expected to engage in coversations with many mentally and physically attractive women. Anytime I am uncertain of the appropriateness of a certain coversation I mentally ask myself how would I feel if my girlfriend (who I love and adore very much) was engaging in this type of conversation with another man? It works for me everytime. The bottom line for me is if you truly respect yourself, your spouse and your relationship you will know what the proper behavior is. When in doubt ask yourself if you had children would you want your daughter to grow up and follow in your footsteps? Ask yourself do you wish to live a life where you are proud of yourself and admired by the people who love and count on you? The choice is and has always been yours. I wish you luck.

Bryan,
I agree that if my H would have told me there wouldn't be another chance that I don't think #2 would have happened. What is it about certain people that decide to have an A? I don't know, that's what I'm trying to find out about me. I was raised in a catholic household and we went to mass EVERY weekend. I know what's morally wrong and what isn't. I knew at the time that having the A's was wrong. But for some reason, I'm lacking that thing that tells you DON'T DO IT!!! I mean, don't get me wrong, I certainly knew it was wrong and I didn't jump at the first chance I had but the fact remains that it did happen. SO, what part of me is lacking that would allow me to cross the line, not once but twice. Maybe I'm just being selfish and I need to put all my feelings aside and just concentrate on only what I can do for my H. I just want to be happy with my M because I'm truly happy, not just because I'm faking it. I love him and I think that's a good start.......
NL

NL many years ago I had a drinking problem that was exarcebated by my XW's multiple A's. Fortunately I got my act together because I realized that I was betraying the commitment to be a responsible father to my two daughters who were very small at that time. The thing that helped me conquer my drinking problem was realizing that it was not going to be resolved overnight and that daily vigilance on my part was an absolute must if I was to succeed in helping me control this problem. An alcoholic, like an addict, is never cured BUT by being vigilant every day to the danger that lurks, I have been able to stay sober for more than 10 years.

How does this relate to you? You to may have something inside of you that you will never be able to cure but thru daily vigilance you can avoid falling into the trap of having more affairs.

TMCM-

I agree that it needs to be a daily vigilance for the rest of my life. I know that I am weak and that I have fallen twice already and I don't want to do it again. I have been taking this one step and a time and trying to get through it as best I can. I'm reading alot of books about God and about M and I'm trying to do this right this time. I have been in NC for 4 days now and that's been hard, very hard. He has tried calling me at work a couple of times this weekend(I can see it's him from caller ID) but I didn't answer and it was really hard. I am really trying, I want my M and I want my H to be happy and I want to be the one he's happy with. I just have to do this (like you said) one day at a time with daily vigilance. Thanks TMCM.
NL

Have you given the OM a no contact letter where you tell him specifically that you no longer want to have anything more to do with him and to never contact you again? He needs to know that you relationship with him is over, otherwise he may take your avoidance of him as just a passing phase and decide to contact you at a later time when you may be more susceptible to his advances.

Another thing that will help your vigilance against falling again into another A with any OM is telling your H about any chance, accidental encounter you might have with him. This will help rebuild his trust in you.

Your H is extremely vulnerable to having an A of his own because his self esteem as a man has been shattered by your two A's and it's going to take some time before he recovers totally from this. You can help to avoid this possibility by following (I know, I know here I go again with the old MB party line <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) The Policy Of Joint Agreement and The Four Rules For A Succesful Marriage. Don't make the mistake that many FWS made in beleiving that their BS's would never do what they did only to realize later on that they were wrong.

NL I highly recommend that you read the book titled Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass. Glass knows her stuff, like Harley, with regards to affairs and I beleive that you will learn a lot that can be helpful if you read her book.

Hey TMCM,

Good morning to you, hope you're having a good day. Yes, I have given OM a NC letter and he just tells me that he will never stop thinking about me or trying to make it work but I don't respond to that because he knows where I stand from the NC letter. I have told H about any contact with OM and he is understanding about that but he has a hard time w/ it (as anyone would have). It helps him to know that I'm being forthright with him and telling him about ANYTHING, no matter how small it might be.
I emailed the NC letter to OM (H read it and was right there when I sent it) and the only response I got back was in regards to telling me that he'll always love me and will always try to reach out to me and make it work. H read all that with me as well. Now the only contact OM makes it by trying to call me while I'm at work. He leaves messages on my cell phone voicemail also but I don't listen to them, I just delete them. I tell H everything that happens.
I know that H is vulnerable to having A of his own. That's why I want to finally get my head on straight and make this work. I don't want him to have to feel like he needs to go elsewhere for satisfaction and to get his needs met.
Thanks for the advice on the book, I will look for it tonight at the bookstore. I love reading and I'm the type of person who needs to know as much as I can with anything that I'm dealing with, so I will definately read that book.
H isn't very interested in wanting to read anything right now, I think he just needs to deal with this on his own right now (through talking with me and his best friend--it's a male friend). Hopefully he'll eventually want to read these books so that we can learn together and help each other when we feel the other slipping. Anyways, thanks again for everything.....
NL

NL,

You said to me on headspinng's thread </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> JL-
I just wanted to respond to what you wrote. I first want you to know that I'm not in any way condoning what Headspinng is doing, I'm trying to show her that what she's feeling isn't "special" that it's heading nowhere good and that she should run while she can. I'm trying to tell her about everything that was going on in my head during my A's and trying to show her that her situation and her friendship w/ OM isn't unique. Also, please don't think that I'm heartless and that I don't care how my H feels. I DO CARE and I will live every day of my life knowing that I've hurt him. I am sad and I do hurt because of the depth of pain I see in his eyes. As far as me saying that "I don't lust for him anymore" I am being truthful and I'm trying to figure out how I can get that back because I sure as hell don't want to leave that out of my M which would leave me very susceptible to having yet another A. I'm trying to do the best that I can for my M.
Also, I don't think the OM is special because he told me that I was "the best he ever had". What I said was that hearing that made me feel good about myself and it brought about all these feelings that I didn't know I was capable of feeling. I know that what he meant by it had nothing to do with love, believe me, I know that. And I also know that each time I slept with him and was looking for love I came away feeling even more lonely and not finding any.
I get the feeling that you're judging me and that you've labeled me a "bad seed" because of my past. I know that I've done bad but I am a good person and I want to find that good person again and be happy in my M. I am sure that every BS out there hates my very being and I don't blame them one bit. I am so sad inside knowing the depth of the pain I've caused to so many people and now I want to do something in my life to stop this sickness. I want to make it up to my H and I want to feel these feelings for him. Is that so bad????
NL </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Permit me to address this part by part.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JL-
I just wanted to respond to what you wrote. I first want you to know that I'm not in any way condoning what Headspinng is doing, I'm trying to show her that what she's feeling isn't "special" that it's heading nowhere good and that she should run while she can. I'm trying to tell her about everything that was going on in my head during my A's and trying to show her that her situation and her friendship w/ OM isn't unique. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I didn't feel you were condoning what Heasspinng was doing. In fact I thought your post was very on point with what she will very likely be facing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Also, please don't think that I'm heartless and that I don't care how my H feels. I DO CARE and I will live every day of my life knowing that I've hurt him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I realize that you have now reach 4 days of no contact. I also realize as all of those that have posted to you, that you are in withdrawal. I know you are not heartless, but I do know you don't have a clue about how your H feels. Your lack of empathy for your H and his situation is obviousl. Part of that is the withdrawal, but given this is your second A, you actions say what you won't admit. You DON'T CARE. It is as simple as that. You claim that you need to find love and lust for your H. But, love is a verb and actually so is lust. THey are actions you take.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am sad and I do hurt because of the depth of pain I see in his eyes. As far as me saying that "I don't lust for him anymore" I am being truthful and I'm trying to figure out how I can get that back because I sure as hell don't want to leave that out of my M which would leave me very susceptible to having yet another A. I'm trying to do the best that I can for my M. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you have a problem here and several posters have asked you about it. If you don't feel LUST for your H, then why didn't you divorce him? It is really what you should have done rather than have A's.

You are only susceptible for another A because you think this is an acceptable response to the situation in your marriage. You will cease being susceptible to an A when you decide that having an Affair IS NOT ACCEPTABLE AND DOESN"T FIX THE PROBLEM. The lust for your H didn't come after you had the A's in fact as Coffeeman posted in the Harley response, the A's kill the LUST aspect of marriage.

I will go further and tell you that you are foolish if you think LUST defines a marriage especially long term successful ones. You are confusing the rush that LUST in your affairs give you with what you need to feel and understand about your marriage. Counseling with a GOOD counselor is very likely the only way for you to understand the HOLE you are trying to fill with the LUST feelings.

But clearly having A's is not working for you, and surely not for your H. So quit doing what isn't working and try something new. Once you come out of your withdrawal, stop and really look at your H. He has been with you since you were 16 and he 19. You don't say how old you are now, or I don't recall it, but girl he didn't learn how to be romantic because your romance started at a different level. It is also clear that your OM wasn't that romantic to his W or he wouldn't be having an affair with you. Do you see how artificial this is?

Your OM were doing this for one purpose, to get in your pants. It wasn't about love, it was a tool to use you. The very thing you want is really a tool to convince someone to do something they KNOW they shouldn't do. You say your H doesn't have this tool. Well, perhaps you should be happy he doesn't or it would be YOU posting here about your rotten H who is having an affair.

Life and surely married life is not a romance novel, where men just buy some chocolate just for the heck of it all of the time. Even your H's response to the Christmas gifts you miss read. A gift from your list IS from his heart. He doesn't want to fail you by getting you something you don't want. He doesn't understand that a stuffed bear that reminds you of a guy that is bald but hairy on the back is romantic. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Why should he? He cannot read your mind, nor know the strange thinks you attach romantic value to.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Also, I don't think the OM is special because he told me that I was "the best he ever had". What I said was that hearing that made me feel good about myself and it brought about all these feelings that I didn't know I was capable of feeling. I know that what he meant by it had nothing to do with love, believe me, I know that. And I also know that each time I slept with him and was looking for love I came away feeling even more lonely and not finding any. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So let me see if I understand this. You are having a hard time not contacting an OM that could cost you your marriage because you KNOW he is using you, and tells you that you are a good piece of A$$? You pine for the moments when it is over and you feel lonely and less loved? It made you feel good about yourself to be used by him, AND to cheat on your H? Is that what you are really saying?

If so, please consider that marriage isn't about using people as a Piece of A$$. It isn't about feeling lonely and less loved. It isn't about hurting someone you vowed to love and cherish. NL, you are looking for something, that much is clear, but since you don't know what you are looking for why don't you just stop right in your tracks, go to counseling and find out what it is you want.

Once you know I would bet dollars to donuts your H can and will happily provide it to you. But, you have to take responsibility for yourself and quit seeking someone or something else to make you feel better when you don't know what it is you seek.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I get the feeling that you're judging me and that you've labeled me a "bad seed" because of my past. I know that I've done bad but I am a good person and I want to find that good person again and be happy in my M.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I am not judging you. I don't know you, but we all here have seen your story before many times. It isn't your past that is the issue. It is your future that concerns all here. You must understand that actions and words must come together before trust is a useful word. I doubt anyone here thinks you are an ax murder or anything, but you must admit your actions haven't been that "good".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am sure that every BS out there hates my very being and I don't blame them one bit. I am so sad inside knowing the depth of the pain I've caused to so many people and now I want to do something in my life to stop this sickness. I want to make it up to my H and I want to feel these feelings for him. Is that so bad???? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, it is not bad, but "wanting to"... isn't the same as doing. To do what you say you want you need a plan. The sad thing is that you will never really make up to your H for what you have done. But, you could make his future with him something so special that he would tell people he would go through it again to get to where he has gotten. That you can do.

You won't feel for him until you stop looking inward and start looking outward. If you start to act toward him in a loving way. When you start to care about him, and what he feels, when you start to open up to him and talk to him about YOUR thoughts and desires, then you will start to feel connections to him.

NL, one of the most interesting things I have noticed here is that most affairs start when people start talking to one another, sharing intimate thoughts and feelings. Then interestingly the affair deepens when a person starts "doing" things for the other person. It seems the act of "doing" actually brings the person closer to the person they are doing things for. Why? I guess because the "doing" person is focusing on the other person really seeing them, and they like themselves because they have become the giver in the relationship. Ultimately, the affairs end because the taker part is not satisfied.

Those are some of my thoughts. I do hope some of them are some help to you. I apologize for the grammatical and spelling errors. This turned out to be a long post and I don't have time to go back and reread what I hastily put down here.

God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

NL I also wanted to point out that the many men and women that have had EA/PA like yourself, have had a very hard time becoming physically intimate with their BS in the beginning of marital recovery. Just like a BS that has trouble with sex with his/her WS because s/he has these mental images of the WS with another, so can a WS have trouble with sex with his/her BS because of the mental images s/he has with him/herself with the OP. In other words sex for both BS and WS seems to become a trigger that remind them both of the A and the OP.

So what can you do? Well forcing yourself and your H to immediately resume your sex life will most likely fail and contribute to some more hurt feelings on both sides. This is tantamount to expecting that two people that have survived a terrible automobile accident (where both have sustained severe injuries) to simply get up, start dancing, and have fun doing it. Just like this couple, you and your H's sex life ALSO has to recover and its going to take some TIME and PATIENCE on the part of BOTH.You can start by first becoming comfortable with being naked around each other without expectations on the part of any to go beyond that. Then it can go on to kissing and caressing each other without the expectation of sexual intercourse. And finally when BOTH of you are ready, to go at each other like two rabbits in heat. The trick is to NOT put any expectations beyond what the two of you are capable at that moment in time of handling. If you can do this, you will be removing the emotional and physical stresses that have crippled your sex life and you could possibly regain the sexual desire you had for your H before you began your A's.

Oh and celebrate each day of no contact by changing the title of this thread (I beleive you already are doing it) to reflect the number of NC days, not to get cocky but as a reminder that you ARE achieving important steps on the road to personal and marital recovery.

<small>[ June 23, 2003, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

TMCM,

That was really good information that you gave me and it helps me have a little "hope" in terms of my H and I and our sex life. I guess it's just like everything else in the sense that you need time to get to where you want to be. I feel bad when my H and I do have sex because I fear that he's having images of me and OM and it hurts me to have that hurt him each time. I ask him about it afterwards and tell him that if he needs to talk I'm there but I think it's still hard for him. I want my sex life with my H to be fulfilling for both of us and I guess the best way to achieve that is through patience. Thanks TMCM....

JL-
To respond to your post:
You wrote: I realize that you have now reach 4 days of no contact. I also realize as all of those that have posted to you, that you are in withdrawal. I know you are not heartless, but I do know you don't have a clue about how your H feels. Your lack of empathy for your H and his situation is obviousl. Part of that is the withdrawal, but given this is your second A, you actions say what you won't admit. You DON'T CARE. It is as simple as that. You claim that you need to find love and lust for your H. But, love is a verb and actually so is lust. THey are actions you take.
NL: I don't have a lack of empathy for my H and this situation. As I have said multiple times, I feel horrible for what I did to him. I know he's suffering, I see it and I feel like crap knowing I did it. It's unfair of you to say that I DON'T CARE because I DO CARE. I think that if I didn't care I wouldn't be here trying to figure out what the problem is for me. I know I'm going through withdrawal right now but I'm not blind to what's going on w/ my H. I am being there for him as much as I can and as far as me having 2 A's, I know that's horrible and there's no justification for it. But, I think the 2nd one happened because I never really figured out the reason for the 1st one and that's what I'm trying to do now (through counseling, reading and really looking deep within myself).

You wrote: I think you have a problem here and several posters have asked you about it. If you don't feel LUST for your H, then why didn't you divorce him? It is really what you should have done rather than have A's. You are only susceptible for another A because you think this is an acceptable response to the situation in your marriage. You will cease being susceptible to an A when you decide that having an Affair IS NOT ACCEPTABLE AND DOESN"T FIX THE PROBLEM. The lust for your H didn't come after you had the A's in fact as Coffeeman posted in the Harley response, the A's kill the LUST aspect of marriage.I will go further and tell you that you are foolish if you think LUST defines a marriage especially long term successful ones. You are confusing the rush that LUST in your affairs give you with what you need to feel and understand about your marriage. Counseling with a GOOD counselor is very likely the only way for you to understand the HOLE you are trying to fill with the LUST feelings. But clearly having A's is not working for you, and surely not for your H. So quit doing what isn't working and try something new. Once you come out of your withdrawal, stop and really look at your H. He has been with you since you were 16 and he 19. You don't say how old you are now, or I don't recall it, but girl he didn't learn how to be romantic because your romance started at a different level. It is also clear that your OM wasn't that romantic to his W or he wouldn't be having an affair with you. Do you see how artificial this is? Your OM were doing this for one purpose, to get in your pants. It wasn't about love, it was a tool to use you. The very thing you want is really a tool to convince someone to do something they KNOW they shouldn't do. You say your H doesn't have this tool. Well, perhaps you should be happy he doesn't or it would be YOU posting here about your rotten H who is having an affair.

Life and surely married life is not a romance novel, where men just buy some chocolate just for the heck of it all of the time. Even your H's response to the Christmas gifts you miss read. A gift from your list IS from his heart. He doesn't want to fail you by getting you something you don't want. He doesn't understand that a stuffed bear that reminds you of a guy that is bald but hairy on the back is romantic. Why should he? He cannot read your mind, nor know the strange thinks you attach romantic value to.
NL: The reason I didn't divorce my H because I didn't have lust for him is because of exactly what you said: Lust doesn't define a M. I love my H but there was a big absence in the sexual department. No, this doesn't justify an A but I think it contributed to it. You claim that I think having A's is an acceptible response to my lack of lust. You are wrong here. I don't think it's acceptible, that is why I'm here! I want to stop this, I want to fix this, I am sick of being "sick"! I know that having A's isn't working for me. I have said that every time I would sleep w/ OM and look for love, I would walk away with none. I was desperate to find whatever it was I was looking for and that was what I stupidly chose to go towards. By the way,I am 27, H 31. As far as having my H buy chocolate for me all the time, I think you missed the point. My point was that my H has never been the romantic type. Orchid asked me what it was about the A that attracted me and I mentioned the romance as one of the things. Of course I don't want chocolate or flowers every day, but once in awhile just for the heck of it would be nice. I was simply saying that my H has never really put forth any effort to find out what I really want or like. My reply about the Christmas gifts was an example of this. I was merely saying that he never takes the time to go out and try to find something from his heart, he wants to make it easy by having me write it down for him what I think he should get me. I don't think that makes me a bad person for saying that. I have made alot of efforts to be romantic with my H. We would do this thing where we would go out on dates every friday and we would take turns bringing the other to a place. I would sit down and research the places in our city and would pickk the perfect spot. He, on the other hand, would just go to the "usual" spots and would never really put forth effort to try to make it special. I would sometimes feel like he didn't think I was worth the effort of doing a little bit of research for me.

You wrote: So let me see if I understand this. You are having a hard time not contacting an OM that could cost you your marriage because you KNOW he is using you, and tells you that you are a good piece of A$$? You pine for the moments when it is over and you feel lonely and less loved? It made you feel good about yourself to be used by him, AND to cheat on your H? Is that what you are really saying? If so, please consider that marriage isn't about using people as a Piece of A$$. It isn't about feeling lonely and less loved. It isn't about hurting someone you vowed to love and cherish. NL, you are looking for something, that much is clear, but since you don't know what you are looking for why don't you just stop right in your tracks, go to counseling and find out what it is you want. Once you know I would bet dollars to donuts your H can and will happily provide it to you. But, you have to take responsibility for yourself and quit seeking someone or something else to make you feel better when you don't know what it is you seek.
NL: No, JL, that's NOT what I was saying at all and I think you know that. What I was saying was that I would define myself through others would react to me. I don't have a high self esteem so when I would get attention from OM, it would make me feel good. That doesn't mean that I didn't know it was wrong, but it still made me feel flattered. I know that it was probably about sex for the OM and I have said that I always walked away feeling sad and lonely. I never got what I was looking for, I think very few people involved in an A do. I know that I have to look deep within myself to find whatever it is that I'm searching for. That's what I'm trying to do and I thought that maybe someone here would be able to help me. I am in counseling and it helps but I still think I need to get comfortable w/ myself before anyone else can help me.

You wrote: No, it is not bad, but "wanting to"... isn't the same as doing. To do what you say you want you need a plan. The sad thing is that you will never really make up to your H for what you have done. But, you could make his future with him something so special that he would tell people he would go through it again to get to where he has gotten. That you can do.
You won't feel for him until you stop looking inward and start looking outward. If you start to act toward him in a loving way. When you start to care about him, and what he feels, when you start to open up to him and talk to him about YOUR thoughts and desires, then you will start to feel connections to him.
NL: I know that I can never make it up to my H, but I agree that I can make the future alot better than our past. And this is what I want to do. You said though that I have to stop looking inward and start looking outward before I can help him. I'm confused because earlier you said that I needed to look inside myself and figure out what I want. That's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to look inside myself and figure out what the hell's wrong. I think I need to do that first before I can actually look outward and be the person I need to be. Because I think that until I figure myself out, I can't be the person I need to be for my H. Am I wrong here??
Anyways, just wanted to reply.

Thanks,
NL

NL,

What are we going to do with you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Please reread my detailed post to you, and then read your response to me. Do you see the defensiveness? Do you see your focus on details, but not the concepts? That is what we are trying to get you to see and acknowledge. We are trying to change your perspective on this. I know it isn't easy.

You even tell me that you cared deeply for your H, but still had a second A. You may care for him (if that is your definition, but you LOVED yourself even more).

As for looking inside to see what is missing I mean exactly that. But, you need to start to focus outward toward your H. What does that mean? Well, for example, quit worrying about what he does and doesn't do for you, and do somethings for him without expecting to be repaid. GIVE don't borrow, or loan. Do you see the difference?

Also, since you brought up the gifts and the chocolates, let me point out something to you. Again this is a perspective issue. You want your H to be you, think like you, feel like you, and respond like you. Love you as you think you would love him. He IS NOT YOU. So what you think would be nice, he doesn't necessarily value. He shows his love in different ways. His fidelity being one of them.

You may be right that with your self-esteem issues ANY MAN that shows the slightest kindness to you, will be half way down the track with you. BUT I DON'T BELIEVE IT. I think you have more morals than that. But, that is exactly what you are saying here. I have low self-esteem so a man that shows me a kindness, will get what he wants.

Now, you may not appreciate this, but I need to explain something to you. Many men are NOT emotionally clueless, they are in fact predators with a well honed sense of when a woman is vulnerable to the effects of compliments, small tokens of esteem, etc. They sense this in woman, and they use it without mercy to get what they want.

Other men are not predators, and so they ARE NOT attuned to a woman's weaknesses because they don't plan on exploiting them.

How do I know these things? I was a batchelor until I was 31. I hung around a lot of guys just like your OM. They were uncanny in their ability to find woman, take them to bed and use them. Married, unmarried, with kids, no kids, it didn't make any difference. It was a source of great pride to them.

Your H is NOT one of those men. What you preceive to be a weakness of his, is actually revealing a strength. If he knew how to really turn your head romantically, if he had practiced this art, if he really enjoyed his conquests, you my dear wouldn't be married to him.

No he doesn't value gifts as you do, at least material ones. The gifts he brings show up everyday: fidelity, forgiveness, hope, and stength. I am sure there are more. YOu need to see these things for what they are, his gifts.

Can your H learn to meet your needs better, YUP. The questionaire that Harley has devised allows you both to see what the other persons needs are. They don't have to match, you just need to be aware of them.

I will bet a lot, that your H doesn't feel he has a lot of needs. He is pretty self-sufficient save in one category: YOU. He needs you.

So quit defending yourself and start learning. As you come out of withdrawal, you need to see things differently. You can argue all you want about what you "feel" is the truth, but your actions and your arguements don't square up yet. And you will learn that actions are what count.

Once you start to see things a bit differently, you will see the articles posted here in a completely different light. People really don't change much NL, but their perspectives on things can change radically. ANd that is all that is needed to really rebuild a marriage.

God Bless,

JL

JL,
I'm sorry, didn't mean to get all fired up like that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> (I thought I was gonna have to put my boxing gloves on for a minute and step outside with you). I guess it hurts sometimes to hear things like that.
Anyways, I understand what you mean by saying that I'm focusing on the details and not the concepts. I really am trying to focus on the concepts but I guess I feel like I'm walking on enemy lines and I need to defend myself because I don't want to offend any other BS's. I know they're hurting and I certainly don't want to come off as being an a$$ to any of them.
As far as you saying that I may have cared for my H but I loved myself more, I have to say that I agree with you on this. I was always more focused on how I felt lonely or how I didn't feel like he made any effort w/ me, etc. Maybe that's what made it all the more easy to try to justify my actions during the A. I know that I have to stop thinking about what I want and focus more on what H needs. But, at what point does it become me living life for others and doing nothing to make myself happy? I want to focus on my H, but I don't want to totally ignore my needs or feelings. Is it possible to do both without coming across as being selfish?

About those darned gifts and chocolates <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ....... It's not really that I want my H to be like me, think like me, act like me. I don't care how he goes about doing it or when he goes about doing it but I just want to see him make some effort (no matter how minute) to show me that he cares enough to go out of his way to try to make me feel special. The dinner "dating" thing was a good example. Now, am I wrong in thinking that our "dates" were meant to be special and make our M fun? Why is it so bad to want him to put a little effort into it? He would rather come home and play his video games for hours on end then to actually do research for 10 minutes to find a romantic restaurant for us. Now, to me it seems like he has his priorities in the wrong places also. I don't nag him about this but I have mentioned it to him before (not in a LBing way, just in a very caring calm way). He says things like "well if it's going to be that much hassle, then why do it?" I don't think this is the right attitude either. (I think I'm beginning to hate chocolate <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

I wouldn't say that any man who makes a move on me is already half way there. It's not really like that. I mean, a guy couldn't come up off the street and say "hey baby, you're looking mighty fine. How's about you and me go take a little roll in the hay?" It's not that. This OM both started out as good friends and then the comments started coming. I think it was just a combination of getting to know them and establishing an emotional connection with them and then all of a sudden finding out that they're attracted to me. I know it's stupid but when you have a low self esteem, it flatters you. And, it's not just the "you're hot" comments I'm talking about, it's also the comments like "you're really easy to talk to", "You look really nice in that color", "You are very smart", yada yada yada. It's just a combination of all those things. I don't know why my self esteem is so low. I'm not ugly, I'm an attractive person. I'm fit and tall, I'm smart and I was raised in a family where we were always told we were good kids and that we were loved and they encouraged us. So, as for the low self esteem, I don't know where that comes from but it's always been there.

As for many men being predators: I know that and I'm not stupid to their games. But like I said, it's the whole friendship/emotional connection mixed with the flattery that I fell for. OM is a jerk (I keep telling myself that) and he cheated on his W too which makes him just as bad as I am. I know he probably used me to escape from any problems he was having in his M and it makes me feel like trash. But, that's why I want to figure this out because I don't like feeling like a loose piece of trash.

I know that people's perceptions can change and that's what I'm trying to do with mine. I need to focus on my H and his needs right now and maybe later WE (my H and I) can work on me together. Does that sound reasonable??

Thanks for chatting JL,
NL

Here's where I disagree with the great JL.

If you get into the habit of giving without getting much in return, your taker starts to grow stronger until one day she takes over and voila another A. So what's the answer? The Policy Of Joint Agreement in which NEITHER Giver or Taker is in control BUT are kept content by finding solutions that BOTH spouse enthusiastically can agree upon. It's not easy but then nothing worth having is, isn't it?