Hello sufdb,

It has been said that you are SNL and I want to ask you something based on that.

You said on Jen's thread:
"Not defeatist, quite manipulative, designed to make people feel sorry for him. Won't work with others like him, but it works well with givers like yourself. It is a big "hook" jen, don't bite."

Do you think givers cannot feel sorry for someone without being manipulated (your word)?

Do you think that when someone feels sorry for another it must automatically mean that they were manipulated in some way?

Do you think it is possible to feel sorry for someone while AT THE SAME TIME encouraging them and helping them get out of the position that makes you feel sorry for them?

Do you think being a giver makes a person weak? What is your definition of weak? Do you think being a taker makes a person powerful? What is your definition of powerful?

Btw, I was hoping you would start your own thread at some point. There must be a reason you still hang out at MB--if you are honest and open about your reason(s), I'll bet that others here who could help you would. Maybe this can be your thread, for you and about you.

What would you want for yourself in your thread?

Take care snl--even the longest journey starts with the first step

<small>[ June 21, 2003, 09:22 PM: Message edited by: LovingBoundaries ]</small>

I am sufdb, and have my own issues and concerns. I assume you are refering to another thread which digressed (for a moment) about my resemblance to someone else. If you want to discuss something specific to someone else I obviously can't help you.

As for the questions you ask, seems like a useful subject, if you start a thread and I have time, I may comment more, but the comment you mentioned was specific to jens circumstance and what she has revealed about her H.

Here are some brief comments about the questions you raised.

Do you think givers cannot feel sorry for someone without being manipulated (your word)?

s...No, I don't feel that way. Plus it is not the feeling sorry that is the issue, it is when you violate (or don't set) boundaries that problems occur.

Do you think that when someone feels sorry for another it must automatically mean that they were manipulated in some way?

s...No. But manipulative individuals are skillful at evoking sympathy from others, and using this sympathy to get releived of duties/consequences for their behaviour.

Do you think it is possible to feel sorry for someone while AT THE SAME TIME encouraging them and helping them get out of the position that makes you feel sorry for them?

s...Absolutely, that is the definition of tough love if done correctly.

Do you think being a giver makes a person weak?

s...No.

What is your definition of weak?

s...Having no boundaries (or having them and not enforceing them).

Do you think being a taker makes a person powerful?

s...More so than a giver. Being a default giver has its issues, but they are more about co-dependencies (IMO). Takers are more likely to be abusers anb controllers, if they can make it stick, that is a practical manifestation of power.

What is your definition of powerful?

s...Depends, the usual power we run across is somone getting more of their needs met than they are giving back. But that is not really power. A truly powerful person has the courage of their convictions (hopefully healthy ones), and is able to carry them out without diminishing the people in their lives. And better yet, accomplish their own agenda while at the same time enabling others to accomplish theirs, a positive synergy.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sufdb:
.... Vows, are like any other rule, made to be broken. Otherwise one womans vows becomes another womans chains. We all need to live healthy lives, and if that includes leaveing a marriage that is not a healthy place, then one (obviously) needs to feel empowered to decide the vow is unrealistic.

..... Clearly vows (and all committments and promises) are important elements of a successful society, ..... But to make all promises, vows, committments inviolate would create a despotic world as well (defined by those who make the rules, and have the power to enforce them...not what democracy is all about), unclear where that is preferable to a world where no one can count on promises.

The answere lies somewhere in the middle, .....the vow must be realistic, must make sense....and saying one can only leave a marriage when there is a clear and present danger to ones physical safety is nonsense. The fact is, anyone will break a vow if sufficient reason exists to do so. Vows are sort of like locks on doors, they keep the honest people honest....but if your neighbor percieves a need to do so, they will break your door down in a heartbeat. ...... But I agree it is desireable to have vows/promises/committments as a framework for society, and interpersonal interactions, as long as everyones well-being is important, and understood the vows can and will be released/violated if needed. The argument would be over what circumstances justify such, and no doubt there will never be 100% consensus on any defined set of cirumstances....nor should there be, we are all unique individuals, empowered to make our life be what we want it to be, one size does not fit all. Unfortuneately this pretty much gaurantees marital discord, and divorce, as people have different expectations, and usually do not get all of this out in the open and resolved before marrying (not to mention the multitude of people with various personal issues/shortcomings that can make marriage more of an ordeal, than a joy.....the suggested definition of vows means those in such marriages are doomed to a lifetime of trying to cope for their bad marital choice, that makes no sense at all).

.....I have read here for awhile, and find the concepts very interesting, and useful in relationships, have learned a lot. But I do see a strong bias toward moral righteousness simply because one was betrayed. That doesn't make any real sense to me, since obviously many betrayed spouses are pretty screwed up people too. I go along with those who suggest infidelity is simply a learning experience for all parties, and it is what you learn (and do about it) that is important. Those who choose to feel superior because they were betrayed obviously havn't learned very much. And those who wallow in self-pity show they are not very desireable partners as well. As for those who roam about like some sort of moral police pointing out (often in a deceptively caring/concerned way) the moral shortcomings of an unfaithful individual, while guiding them back to the route they have ordained is needed for their salvation....well who appointed them...nuff said.

Fact is their are lots of pretty lousy marital partners who are betrayed, just like their are lots of unfaithful spouses who are lousy marital partners...has nothing to do with who is in what role. .....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sufdb,

Interesting 'stuff' here, kinda contridictory but interesting. Can you direct me to the link about what brought you here to MB?

Thanks,
L.

nothing contradictory at all, just different focus. If you see something that confuses you, and are interested in more discussion/clarification it would be more productive to ask about it (a specific question illustrating the contradiction....I sure would like to know if I am not consistent, that is one of the purposes of seeking discussion..what about you, openminded?). Trying to talk about complicated stuff in this kind of limited medium (for communication) gaurantees a lot of confusion. Also it seems (from what I have read), that people often are applying different (and conflicting) assumptions to the opinions they post. Those often do not get clarified so people end up applying their criteria to someone elses opinions, leading to misunderstandings.

<small>[ June 22, 2003, 07:37 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

I don't care who "sufdb" wants to pretend he/she is this time. SNL, Lurking About(isn't that what Satan does?), pick any name. Anyone who has had much of any dealings with SNL knows who this is and it doesn't take a whole lot to see that the terms and the writing patterns and VIEWS are more than coincidentally EXACTLY THE SAME.

Sufdb:nothing contradictory at all, just different focus.

Orchid: IMHO, just the 1 topic above shows contradiction. In all fairness, I have read several of your other posts and see a similar pattern.

Sufdb:If you see something that confuses you, and are interested in more discussion/clarification it would be more productive to ask about it (a specific question illustrating the contradiction....I sure would like to know if I am not consistent, that is one of the purposes of seeking discussion..what about you, openminded?).

Orchid: Ok.

Sufdb:Trying to talk about complicated stuff in this kind of limited medium (for communication) gaurantees a lot of confusion.

Orchid: Confusion is not conducive to solutions. Constructive criticism can be beneficial but at times even that walks a fine line between reason and anger.

I beg to differ with your above statement, since discussions here on MB are 'quite' productive for many. Of course each personality with their +/- issues and attitudes play a big part but as you are aware even the WS who are NOT posting here not improvements when MB and other common sense principals are applied.

Have some left MB in a huff? Of course. Wonder how their lives are? CAn go either way. But your thoughts about NOT being able to 'talk about complicated stuff....guarantees a lot of confusion.' Isn't an accuarte portrayal if you have been here long enough.

So that bought me to my question about asking what brought you here to MB and when. I am sure you have seen how we ask different ones why they come here. Most come to find support and in time lend a hand (with the proper motivation and attitude).

I am just asking. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Sufdb:Also it seems (from what I have read), that people often are applying different (and conflicting) assumptions to the opinions they post.

Orchid: This is true. Why? These different opinions often help the rest of us see things for another viewpoint or angle. These opinions can be small or large. Size is not an issue. Except...... except if these 'differences' are being done for the wrong reason.

Sufdb:Those often do not get clarified so people end up applying their criteria to someone elses opinions, leading to misunderstandings.

Orchid: Yet many here have had things clarified. In many cases there is recovery. Personal recovery and marital recovery. Personal recovery is achieved at an individual level. Marital recovery is achieved with the combined efforts of both the H & W.

I do agree with your statement about some having 'double' standards in making personal application vs handing out stricter standards to others. Did you notice that in SNL or Lurking About?

For example, in regards to this SNL or Lurking About, former MB poster(s)..... have you ever read the stuff? It would be interesting to know what you think. Many here think he is one and the same. Hm....... why? Well the ideas expressed by both posters 'seemed' to help many and probably irriate just as many.

Now it just makes this 'old' MBer wonder why? If these posters who 'appeared' to be filled with soo much 'insight' was able to apply that insight personally vs just dishing it out, then WOW, that would be a good person to learn from. But when those posters eventually began to display the ability to tell more than do.....well I am sure you will see what many of us here saw...... their credability was lost and their words became just that words. The impact of their 'wise' words lost their punch.

Kind of like a father/parent/H/W that says one thing but does another, ya know?

That's too bad because I spoke to SNL in the past and at one time he seemed like a caring individual. Not sure what he is like now.

So while I think SNL and even Lurking About posted with good intentions, those good intentions lost their impact when it became 'obvious' that they allowed themselves to be in denial or exempt from their own 'good' counsel.

Want some friendly advice? If you don't want others to link you up with SNL or Lurking About's style of posts, maybe you should show that you are different in thought and deed. Remove the 'veil' of secrecy.

Now that could certainly be shown here and well......would be a welcomed change (as long as it is for the better, right?) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

take care,
L.

Hi sufdb,

I skimmed your thread in Emotional Needs forum. I am convinced by YOUR posts that you are indeed SNL/LurkingAbout. I remember that while posting under LurkingAbout you also denied you were SNL. I just don't get why.

sufdb, what are you getting out of posting on the forums? What do you need from the forums? Why do you "hide" when these forums are already as "anonymous" as we choose for them to be?

As I have told you on some of Faith4me's threads, I believe that you can get what you need and what you are looking for, and that people here who can help you will help you.

On the surface it looks to me like this is nothing more than a game to you, messing with people using one of your "fake personas". I suspect that you are "trying on" fake personas looking for one that "fits" you and you want to use in your real life.

Have you noticed that no matter what "new persona" you use or try to be, others "see" who you really are? Why not "be" who you really are here instead of hiding yourself, why not be honest about why you are here? Why not let us know what you need? Why are you afraid to do that? Are you afraid that people won't respect you or help you--or are you afraid that people WILL respect you and WILL help you?

As I have said to you before on Faith4me's threads--you can get support here while you become the man, father, and xh you want to be. But it starts with honesty, with yourself and then with others. Without telling us what you need from the MB forums, it is unlikely that you will get what it is you are really looking for. Think about it SNL/LurkingAbout/sufdb ok?

Take care--I will continue to pray that you find what you need and/or are looking for

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