I've been on and off this site cause there's been some remodeling going on in my house and computer keeps getting knocked on and off. So I'm going to take this opp to vent. Thanks in advance.

I'm such an idiot!!! I seek advice here and from Steve Harley. I do a plan B letter. H and I were seperated and we were going nowhere. So I wrote the letter. Requested no contact. I'm working on me and starting to feel better about whatever the outcome could be. I finally like the me I've become, am trying new things, stayint healthy, involved in church and Bible study. I feel liberated for the first time in many, many years. And because H was paying household bills, my attorney suggested (and I agreed) that I set aside the seperate maintenance agreement. And since the goal is restoration, not divorce, I thought I was doing the right thing.

So, after about a week H came to me and said he couldn't stand this anymore. He said he was so sorry for hurting me and that he wanted to stay married. (He never admitted to an affair although SO much points that way) He said he hated living apart from us and wanted his family back.

Well, I told him that if he wanted to stay married, that was all we needed to know for now and we should start moving forward in a positive direction. I did say that we would need some kind of mediator to help us communicate. He hasn't gone. He has slowly crept back into our home. He went from staying over on the weekends to here full time. His clothes are not here though. And he still doesn't have a key to the house (since I changed the locks). He was taking his dirty clothes back to the place he was staying but now his dirty underwear is finding a way back to the hamper.

His whole attitude is that of irritation. He speaks to me w/ contempt in his voice. He doesn't look at me w/ tenderness and concern. He also has started playing major games w/ the money. He will give me just enough to cover 1 or 2 bills, and let the rest go late. I'm letting this roll off my back cause he'll look like the real idiot when the power gets cut off. He keeps telling me that he's not making any money (he's an attorney) so he can't cover expenses. He has taken to hiding money in his car. He won't put it in the bank cause he doesn't want to pay taxes on it and he doesn't want me to have acess to it. He gave me a check today to cover bills from our investment account. That's total BS!!!

He is just sitting here figuring that things will cool down and he doesn't have to try. He has stopped going to Cuba after he snuck off there the last time w/o telling me or his 3 kids he was leaving the country. But he e-mails his bro telling him that he's just waiting for things to cool off before he goes back there. I told him that one thing I wouldn't be able to accept anymore is him going back. I would D him then.

CAN YOU BELIEVE THIS GARBAGE?????

I feel like I've got IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT written across my head. He's back in here and I feel trapped. Where do I go from here?

Yesterday we got into a heated discussion and I asked him if he could describe me to him. I asked him what he thought my lifestyle was like, what kind of things fill my day, what my character was like. He just sat there all pissed off and refused to comment. He said he would have to say the bad w/ the good. He couldn't say one nice thing about me...me as a mom...me as a volunteer...me and my walk w/God...nothing!! I asked him what he would say about me if it was my funeral...he said everyone says nice thing about people at funerals!!

What am I supposed to take from this? How do I get myself out of this idiot's hole that I so gullably fell back into? Guys...I really need some straight on advice.

Shoot....I hate when this happens. But he still has that apartment you know? Tell him EXACTLY what he needs to do BEFORE he moves in completely....and get him back out of the house. You've learned this the hard way...but by golly you've learned it (I hope <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ). Tell him he is not prepared to work on the marriage or go to counseling and you've come to far to go back to the status quo. Start making a list in your head (or with Steve!) about what the steps for returning home will be. Then go see an attorney. (I hate when the spouses are ALSO attorneys). And before you do anything I just said....CALL STEVE!

The problem is that you did not establish non negotiable boundaries (like counseling with a marriage saving professional, no contact with the OW, etc) and this capitulation on your part cost him what little respect he had for you. Remember people respect people that don't allow them to walk all over them. You can still possibly regain his respect (and your self respect) by establishing non negotiable boundaries, and you following thru with the consequences of his willful violation of them.

Coffeman....you are ABSOLUTELY and irrefutable correct. I think she knows it too!!! But WHAT does she do now?????? LOL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by star*fish:
<strong>Coffeman....you are ABSOLUTELY and irrefutable correct. I think she knows it too!!! But WHAT does she do now?????? LOL</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly what you told her to do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Ok, here's the beauty of this little scenario...

We are remodeling our house AND we have a house down the street that we usually rent. This is the house H was staying in. As soon as I got the contractor over here, my H asked him to do work there too. It needs a few things to get it rentable. Conveniently H had them start full steam there and now he essentially can't stay there!!

I am so dumb. Yes, I need to call Steve back and I will. But if he insists on staying here now, which he has, what boundries can I lay down inorder to gain an ounce of respect? What if he won't leave now? How bad did I blow it? I only wanted resolution so I caved

Simply be honest with him by taking him aside and calmly and quietly telling him:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 'I'm beginning to loose hope that we will ever be able to save our marriage unless we (notice I didn't say you) get serious and start implementing the things we agreed upon to achieve it. I can't do this alone, I need your help'</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Notice how that is honest statement and yet avoided any love busters. Why not consider using it?

I'll give it a shot Coffee dude. I know I've said this though in many different ways before. Let me ask you something. Why on earth would he still be hanging around if he has no respect for me? All of his belongings are out of this house and he's had a lot of time to himself to do whatever makes him happy. Why would he even come back?

And right before he slid back into this home I told him that I would never go back to the old way. And I told him that I for sure didn't want him moving back in until we both have had MC because if he came back and left again, it would devestate the kids. This is the hardest part. They have been through so much w/ this.

We are supposed to go to Vermont next week. H is planning to go also. Thank God it's an active vacation and that they offer many things to do there. At least I can keep busy. I really don't want him to go. Looking at him makes me believe that he is trying to salvage his appearences and reputation. You know..."At least I tried to make a go of it" I could just see him saying that to his buddies.

Should I just say what you suggested, set firm boundries, and then back off? Even if it means that I don't talk to him after that? I mean, if he insists on staying should I just ignore him after one final attempt?

I know I'm asking a lot of questions tonite. What is God's purpose in this? Is He perhaps preparing me to build my faith and strength? Yea, I know the answer to that one. He's refining me all right.

The absolute hardest thing for me in this that I want so much to have the kind of love that is kind, compassionate, nurturing, and unconditional. In my marriage I feel H has placed a price tag on the kind of love he is willing to give to me. That stings. I'm married to him and unless I D him, I'm looking at a long road ahead w/o the kind of relationship I've always dreamed of having.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ljkm3:
Why on earth would he still be hanging around if he has no respect for me? All of his belongings are out of this house and he's had a lot of time to himself to do whatever makes him happy. Why would he even come back?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please take the following as nothing more than speculation on my part.

The guilt of what he did to the kids when he left could be a strong enough reason why he came back home. Without them in the picture, he (like many WS's) may have decided to never come back at all.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Should I just say what you suggested, set firm boundries, and then back off? Even if it means that I don't talk to him after that? I mean, if he insists on staying should I just ignore him after one final attempt?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For the moment, my answer would be yes to all your questions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know I'm asking a lot of questions tonite. What is God's purpose in this? Is He perhaps preparing me to build my faith and strength? Yea, I know the answer to that one. He's refining me all right.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He doesn't want you to suffer BUT He realizes that your adversity will not kill you but instead make you into a stronger person. If you come to the conclusion that you gave your marriage your absolute best to save it but your H would not respond in kind, you will have the peace of mind to move on with your life with no regrets.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The absolute hardest thing for me in this that I want so much to have the kind of love that is kind, compassionate, nurturing, and unconditional. In my marriage I feel H has placed a price tag on the kind of love he is willing to give to me. That stings. I'm married to him and unless I D him, I'm looking at a long road ahead w/o the kind of relationship I've always dreamed of having.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes it is very hard but it is not just you and your WH that are affected by all of this, but your children as well. This doesn't in no way imply that you should stay married to him until all of your children grow up and leave home, but that your decision to stay married or divorce him should be a well thought out one that you can live with for the rest of your life.

Thank you so much for your candid advice. Yea, I truly realize that w/o the kids in the picture he may never have come back. Because I know from my heart that if we didn't have the kids in the picture, I never would have given him the time of day. The stakes are higher w/ them to consider.

I also consider how seriously God takes the covenant of marriage. I think I am struggling more w/ my obedience to Him than anything else. Do you follow me? I mean just because I don't "feel" like trying anymore and I don't "feel" like this is ever going to work and I "feel" like closing this chapter in my life doesn't mean that this is ultimately what He has in mind for me. God allowed this marriage to take place 14 years ago and He gave us both 3 terrific kids. This all just didn't "happen". When we married, God ordained it.

In our lives as a couple, we are rarely at the same place at the same time. This much I recognize.My H has been the stronger, more faithful one at times, and I have been there also. So when one spouse is deep in sin and as ugly as can be both inside and out, how does the other spouse ride the storm out w/o losing themself? These overwhelming "feelings" tend to take over and hope of a happy ending seem extremely distant.

And I want to be able to teach my children something valuable through this... that it's ok to have really bad things happen in a marriage but if we are patient and faithful, God will reward and bless the marriage if we perservere.

Does anyone else out there struggle w/ the devil on one shoulder shouting LEAVE! and the Angel on the other shouting WAIT! How do you keep your sanity?

My FWH moved out and my fear was that he would weasel back in without doing any real work. We had a vacation...I invited him to drive with us to the spot, but he was on his own, we saw him a couple of days when his family visited us, but he left again, then we saw him when we drove back. I asked him to vacation separately, that I needed a vacation from the hurt, and being around him hurt.

How about make reservations at another hotel, or tell H he's welcome to go, but has to stay somewhere else, some other hotel.

I realized after a couple of weeks of not working on our M that my H wasn't given clear guidelines as to what he would have to do to get back...
I posted my list of 5 things to ask him for...
1. N/C with OW
2. Counseling
3. Medication update
4. Honesty/accountability
5. Time

He balked and whined, but I think he realized these were necessary, and I was serious.

Cerri sent a reply about these boundaries to me which I think will help... I copied it here.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Once a spouse moves out, whether or not you implement Plan B there needs to be hard and fast conditions before he or she gets to come home.

There's several reasons for this, the primary one being to protect you from going through this all over again. As you know, most affairs end. And, most marriages that have been through infidelity don't end in divorce because of the affair.... but on the other hand most of them never really recover either. The incidence of real recovery is pretty low. Most couples never address either the issues that contributed to the affair beginning or the condtions that allowed the affair to get off the ground.

Eventually they either drift apart, divorce or there is further infidelity. Many just kind of bumble around being miserable for years to come.

This time now, while he is out of the house and you are renegotiating your marriage is the only time you can really lay out some hard and fast conditions. Once he comes home you are bound by other rules of honesty and negotiation.... but you can't insist on anything... Now you can.

He may feel like you are controlling, and to an extent you are.... but here's the thing. He left you..... and was with someone else. You have the right to lay out the conditons under which he gets to reenter the relationship.... and to protect yourself and your marriage you must do that. Once he is home you're on different footing and the conditions under which you allowed that to happen are the ones that are in place until you negotiate to change them. For your sake and that of the health of your marriage, set hard and fast conditions and stick to them.

Harley's stated conditions for recovery which should be agreed to and implemented before the WS spouse comes home are:

Radical Honesty. Each of you must learn to be honest, in a way that is respectful and courteous, about all the events in your life. This includes how you feel about things that each of you does. Your hopes, dreams, and plans.

And is particularly necessary in terms of accountability. You each need to know where the other one is and what you are doing 24/7. There can no longer be the opportunity for one of you to have a secret second life. This is one of the conditions that allows an affair to flourish.

Eliminating things that hurt each other:(Love Busters) This is where we look at things that each one does that either hurts or annoys their spouse. This ranges from abuse to simple habits that drive you wild.

Doing things to make each other happy: (Meeting each others' most important emotional needs) Being honest and eliminating hurtful things will stop the pain. And then in order to restore love to the marriage you both must re learn what it is that reach of you needs to feel happy and fulfilled in the marriage, and then find ways to enjoy doing those things.

Time as a couple: The primary reason marriages fall apart and lose the intimate connection is that couples stop spending time together as a couple. They do things with their kids or their friends and families. But to maintain, or rebuild, the feelings of love men and women in romantic relationships need to have time for just them. Harley's minimum is 15 hours per week, just the two of you meeting the needs of conversation, affection, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment.

Creating a way of life that is good for both of you at the same time: (POJA) You do this by making all your decisions in a way taking each other's feelings into account.

These are the basics.... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now, how to get him out...how long will the remodeling take? How about stopping the remodeling and living in the rental house? I also have a problem with the dirty underwear in the hamper...I pack it all up in a plastic bag, unwashed, and hand it to him as he walks out the door.

He's got the notion you are going to put up with this. He doesn't realize this time it's different. This is a setback, but you have realized what you've done...and you're not trying to rationalize to us his staying...

Dear Still... WOW! As I was reading I was taking notes. I feel that between what you and everyone else here has said I still have a chance to regain conrol of me. I am going to have one final talk w/ him and lay out what I feel we both need to do to move forward in a positive direction. If he balks, well... there's the door. The abuse is coming at me w/ rapid fire. His words and actions cut so deep.

I did one thing today that I think was an up for me. Let me know if I'm fooling myself. My son called me and said that his dad had 2 tickets to the baseball game tonight. That kind of peeved me because I actually had wanted to go tonight. The Yankees are in town. So I told my son good, go w/ dad and didn't say anything else. You see, my H gets these tickets from a radio person and gets free ones, sometimes many. Well H didn't call me and ask if I wanted to go or if the entire family wanted to go. So I decided that I was going to take the girls myself and go watch the game. As my H came home we were leaving. He asked where we were going and I said the game. HE STARTED THROWING ATTITUDE AND ASKED ME HOW I WAS ABLE TO GO! He was really pissed off. I just pulled out of the driveway and said "it's a Yankee game and you know I like the Yankees".

My thought behind that was either he could see me ticked off or I could blow him off and go have a good time. What do you think? It's really small in the scheme of things, but I didn't sit at home and let the hurt I was feeling take control of me.Do you know that he called on my cell about 5 times while we were there?!

Ok, so back to getting his behind out the door... I will lay down what the boundries are for me...counseling...honesty...accountability...time together...making each other happy. I will somehow try to manage the vacation thing and move along the remodeling thing (mostly the remodeling at the rental so he can move back in there). Do you think the kids are going to have a tremendous setback? I think they see what's going on here. Do you think that they would understand better this time that it's not a seperation filled w/ raging emotions but filled w/ the hope of getting our family on the right track?

I hate this. I tend to just put the unresolved issues on a shelf only to create peace in my home. In the end it rips at every one of us. Please keep on coaching me here. You all have been a lifeline.

The kids are a tough question,

My H and i have generally been in agreement about the kids. We've tried to be VERY honest with them (even to the point of not lying to them about Santa Claus), but that doesn't mean we tell them EVERYTHING. I have told them the basics. Daddy and Mommy aren't getting along because Daddy went out on some dates... We're trying to figure out a way to love each other again.... Daddy moved out so that we can learn how to treat each other better... Then I leave the door open for them to ask questions.

My son understands what is going on, and is very wise...it's clear to him, I need to stop yelling and Daddy needs to spend more time with us (Dad and I just need to learn this). And my daughter is constantly trying to get us back together...even so far as giving us clover rings and marrying us again.

I think it effects the kids more than we know, but as long as you're separated and not using the D word, they hold out hope (and they probably have more hope than we do). You can feed that hope and let them know what your hopes are...

On another note, there was a topic recently (I beleive on "In Recovery") about whether infidelity ran in the family. At least the folks that were posting seem to think so...but the thought was, not every son of an A had A's, but most WH had a F that was one too. My FWH's F wasa WH. (Yeah, one more thing to worry about). Maybe something you can work out with H when he pulls his head out of where it's at and begins to join the REAL world...(sorry, angry because I hate to see my son be given the example he's been given).