Hi All,

I posted this on EN section but thought those here might find it interesting. A new High for woman NOT!

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JL

JL-

I'm a little disturbed by this comment particularly:

"Why do we stray, because we can..."

I'm so tired of hearing this dissmissive logic. It's so easy to say "we can". Much harder to identify the social implications that question raises.

The truth is we stray because we are brought up in ways that don't reinforce accountability to one's actions. This whole entire society is one of disposability - don't like your clothes, buy new ones, don't like your job - find a new one, aren't happy in your house - move, depressed - take meds., unhappy with your life - have an A!!!

We're taught the American dream and we're sold the concept of "keeping up with the jones's". All bought and paid for with - you guessed it! Plastic. Money we don't even have to spend.

Instead of feeling entitled, maybe we should step back and feel grateful for what we do have...beautiful kids, a partner that loves us, a home. Sure, it wasn't what you were sold as a kid. It may not be what you dreamed of. If it's not, dig in your heels - open your ears and minds, and make it into your dreams.

Sorry I'm just venting...

Kily,

Well said. It seems like the american dream has changed over the last few decades or so. Gone are the days where you fought for something that you believed in. If it gets tough we can just change how we believe. Alter our morals and ethics to accomodate what we want or what we think we deserve.

I myself have been guilty of this and it takes a little to get out of the habit of "me, me, me."

I don't think it is a bad thing to dream of a perfect life just as long as we don't measure our reality by it.

JL.... very interesting article. Infidelity is in the news a lot lately.

Kily.... excellent rant, don't think I could have done better myself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> But you know, the comment that, "we stray because we can," is very telling. It really goes to the heart of our culture's belief in privacy, independent lives and activities, blind trust and the whole idea that if love is meant to be then we don't have to work at it.

Shirley Glass is speaking at the Smart Marriages Conference this week and it breaks my heart that I'm not there to hear her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

C

In the past men cheated as much as they do today. So the only difference is that the rate women cheating has increased to be near that of men.

Why do more women cheat today? I agree with the author. Because they can cheat. In previous generations, a woman who cheated faced the very real possibility of loosing her marriage and her children. She could not go out on her own and earn a living. Her husband who did not really fear any of this cheated at about 58%.

I remember reading a statistic about 25 years ago that when a man cheated, this marriage had a 98% chance of recovering. When a woman cheated the marriage had a 2% chance of recovery. That’s changed today… but I still think that a man is more likely to walk out on his WW then a woman is to walk out on her WH.

So we women are now more ‘equal’ even this way.

By the way, my mom is 84 years old. Recently we had a discussion about infidelity. She told me that the women in her generation cheated a lot. They simply would not admit to it… not even in a blind survey. I thought that was interesting. Of course my mother never cheated… she only has SF 10 times in her life.. once for each of her children.

Infidelity was prevalent before the woman’s liberation, before the sexual revolution, before the me generation, before a throw away society, etc.

It is prevalent today world wide, even in societies that claim to be more Godly.

Again the difference is that now in the USA and Western Europe women are doing it in higher numbers because of our freedoms.

While I decry the level of infidelity and acceptance of it in our society. I do not think that what we had in the past is something we want to go back to. A society that makes it acceptable for men to cheat but women are vilified if they do.

What we need to a new way of being married… where people are educated about how to have a healthy marriage. We need a marriage model that does not assume that all marriages deteriorate to a state of unhappiness and lack of fulfillment. And we need a society that actually stands up against infidelity whether the WS is a man or a woman. A society that sees infidelity by a man to be as vile a transgression as infidelity by a woman.

I really get ticked when I hear/read things about how terrible women today are because they cheat quite often. Excuse me, they are no more vile then the men.

Let’s be careful of painting a picture of a perfect past. IT was far from perfect when it came to infidelity.

Sorta like all the bruh-ha-ha about women competing with men on the golf course.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
T

Interesting, but certainly not a surprising conclusion. I suspect much of it has to do with the fact that women are perhaps more willing to admit to it now than they may have been in the past; that certainly has to account for a percentage of the increase.

I think it's just one more indication that most of us have simply not learned much about how to be honest, live in the present, and be responsible for our own happiness. And clearly, as a species, we're far more interested and willing too pursue our rights than our responsibilities.

Thanks for the post, JL!

Ya Know Zorweb,

As I kid growing up all I ever heard about this was it was the MEN doing these awful things. It was the men that couldn't control themselves. It was the MEN that...

But, since I was old enough to truely understand the Birds and the Bees (18?, perhaps 20, some could argue 30 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , could be older <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ), the math never added up.

Men HAD to be cheating with someone. Not all men could be cheating with the same woman. The numbers were always wrong.

I do agree that added opportunity is a key. But, I do think the numbers have always been foolish.

They were sort of like the myth that was perpetuated that after a divorce MEN ended up better off than when they were married.

My question: Which company gives you a pay raise when you divorce??

Now way, splitting things up, having two domiciles, splitting and often duplicating children's expenses, leaves men better off.

It was a dumb statement and it was proven that the organization that came out with those conclusions, "cooked the books" and flat lied.

I think the thing that saddened me about the article was the "so what" sort of attitude. I know you are supposed to become more cynical as you get older, but I just think there really is a better way. There is a lot less pressure for women to marry. The planet doesn't need more people. Men, can find regular sex outside of marriage. Why bother to get married if all people are going to do is act like they aren't married?

I know stupid question on my part. I think I am just tired but that article really bothered me. I think because there was a sense that women had finally "arrived." I guess what bothers me as a man and a father of both males and females, is that I held out hope that at least "half" or close of the human population had some brains and morals. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I know I was wrong, I have known it a long time.

Well at least I still believe in Santa Claus. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I know he is alive and well.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Twyla, VJ was right. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> unless of course men can play on the women's tour. Actually, it was fun watching Anika play on that course. It really does illustrate how different the PGA courses are from what most of us play.

JL,
Wondered if you were still around these parts!

It's not a surprise--the article, that is.

I think it's easier than ever to cheat too as many of us live in metropolitan areas where one can drive a mere 15-20 miles from home and NO ONE knows who we are. We're very anonymous now.

The whole infidelity topic sickens me, as I've seen how it has destroyed my marriage. It's a part of my history that I still haven't accepted. It's still like it wasn't even me doing the horrible stuff I did.

Someone here mentioned that in the past very few men forgave women who cheated. I still feel that far more women forgive than do men.

H_P

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hopeful_person:
Someone here mentioned that in the past very few men forgave women who cheated. I still feel that far more women forgive than do men.

H_P</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know I'm generalizing with what I'm about to say here but it SEEMS to me that when most women have A's it often is a sign of a deep, long running disatisfaction with their M, and their A's tend to be more of a way out of the M rather than just a way of meeting unfulfilled EN's. And for this reason it also SEEMS to me that it is much more difficult for a BH to persuade his WW to end the A and work on the M, than it is for a BW to do the same with her WH. Maybe this PARTIALLY explains why M where the woman had an A end up more in divorce than M where the man had the A, and not just a simple case of unforgiving male pride or ego as the main culprit.

<small>[ June 25, 2003, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

I think TMCM makes a very good point. The fundamental reasons women have affairs differ from those for which men have affairs. It is likely those differences lead to different success rates at recovery, etc.
Although there's no doubt; socially, and culturally we men are perhaps less prepared to forgive affairs than women are...perhaps for the same resons. Men tend to have less emotionally attached affairs, so we perhaps see them as less evil as a society.

After I read this it almost sounded like I'm an apologist for the men, or for society's view of affairs, when I AM NOT! It was simply my assessment of why these different views may exist, not my endorsement of those views.

<small>[ June 25, 2003, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

kily, d_r, and cerri,

Amen and Amen!!

kily said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The truth is we stray because we are brought up in ways that don't reinforce accountability to one's actions....

We're taught the American dream and we're sold the concept of "keeping up with the jones's". ...

Instead of feeling entitled, maybe we should step back and feel grateful for what we do have...beautiful kids, a partner that loves us, a home. Sure, it wasn't what you were sold as a kid. It may not be what you dreamed of. If it's not, dig in your heels - open your ears and minds, and make it into your dreams.

Sorry I'm just venting...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You can vent anytime! That was good stuff, esp. the words in bold...I need to say those things to myself daily...some days...hourly!!!

d_r said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I myself have been guilty of this and it takes a little to get out of the habit of "me, me, me." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep, me too, quite guilty of the same. Especially during my A, there wasn't a "selfless bone" in my body/being!

cerri said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But you know, the comment that, "we stray because we can," is very telling. It really goes to the heart of our culture's belief in privacy, independent lives and activities, blind trust and the whole idea that if love is meant to be then we don't have to work at it.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's EXACTLY where my head was pre and during A. I constantly told my H, if I loved him, it would just be so, that I shouldn't have to work at it if it was there. I also asked him, myself, and even the om at the time, "How can I MAKE myself love my H?"

I've since learned differently, albeit the hard way. Love/relationships do take work, do take upkeep, do require protection... I've learned love CAN be restored, even when you feel, "there is just NO way!!"

As for me, and the angle I thought of after reading the article. I am not to be applauded for keeping my fidelity to my husband for the first 19+ years. I could've easily cheated years earlier. I just chose not to put myself into the position where it could happen. I did that one day, and sure enough...I took the jump, made the CONSCIOUS decision to cheat, and did it, and stayed doing it for months. I actually created the opportunity, where I had never done that before in my M.

~aut

ps. JL, I stray off the P/Child board on occasion, especially when I see a thread posted by someone so wise as you. Can't resist reading. Good one, thank you.

All,

I think more married women are having affairs then in the past. I think it's because there are so many more opportunities to cheat since there are so many more women in the workplace.

And women are in more responsible positions with better pay. They travel more, (play golf; hehe); are out there doing more things that in the past were traditionally male oriented.

So as Zorweb or TMCM said above; marriage needs to evolve too. That's why Shirley Glass's book speaks to me. She tackles relationships in the workplace, interet; and talks about appropriate boundaries etc. We have to be conscious of what's out there, and how to make a great marriage in spite of all the opportunities.

I have more to say later; just need to give it further thought!! CSue

Well at the very least the article does displace the beleif that the general population has that infidelity is strictly a male dominated phenomenon.