Thanks Mimi for giving me support.

I'm debating whether to send another Plan B letter or just continue NC which I have been doing since Monday. Mortarman what did you do when you broke your plan B the times that you did? Any and all opinions welcome. For those that have already addressed this, thank you. NW

First off..thanks to Coffeeman and JL and Chris...they are right on the money. Get with it man.

On your question to me, I am assuming that you are referring to the contact I had with her concerning the kids.

Go into Mimis thread. I have a couple of posts there on how I handled the children. The children were living with me, so it was much easier for me.

Any and all contact with her must be about the children. And no "crap" either (thanks Chris!). I even got a second phone number in the house, that made a special ring. That way, the kids would answer it whn it rang, knowing it was from their mom. And I didnt have to talk to her. Sure it cost me a little more money a month...but it was well worth it (the grandmas are now using that number to contact the kids).

With a shiny new PBL, as JL states, she will know the way out. My wife said the same exact things yours is. Wanted to be friends as she worked through this. That she knew that things with Om were probably not going to work out. She wanted me also not to put too much into it and not get my hopes up. Even over Christmas, she said she wanted to take a family trip to Kentucky to visit her family. But that we would sleep in deperate rooms, and that I was not to get my hopes up that we would be working on the R.

Well ,once she said that, I went to Plan B. That was on Dec 17th. So, we did seperate Christmases. She was so angry that I wouldnt go along with her cake eating, that she ran off to Florida with the OM over Christmas to meet his family. She was going to get serious with him, since I was pulling back.

Funny thing happened on the way to marital bliss with the OM...HE SCREWED UP! He could not meet all of her needs. They had been having this affair for over a year at this point, with 9 months of it out in the open. But even with all of that, I was still meeting many of her needs.

When I pulled back, those needs were going unmet. She was now in withdrawal from ME! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> And there was no way the Om was going to meet all of them. Which made her angry at me at first. But after awhile, with little to no contact from me or with me, she could only start looking at the OM as being woefully incapable of meeting her needs properly. It is then, and only then, that my wife made the fateful decision to agree to the PBL (of course this was now getting into February by this point).

So the answer to your question is that she will try everything in the book to remain in contact with you, to get her NW fix. She is a junky...do not give it to her! She is going to have to crash...then you can help pick up the pieces.

Hope that helps. Again, loook back to all my threads, especially starting in December 2002 thru March 2003.

In His arms.

Yes, that answers my question(s). I'm still debating whether to send another Plan B letter since during the 4 hour conversation last Sunday at her house that I mentioned, I told her that her continued relationship with OM was hurtful, unacceptable and in no way helpful to us resolving our relationship issues. I did not give an ultimatum, just told her how I felt. So I am nearly 100% certain she knows why I have gone dark again since I did it a day after this talk. She is a smart woman.

Thanks MM, Mimi, JL, ML, Kily, Chris, TMCM

NW

She called this morning on my cell phone and left a message asking me if I can take the kids this coming Sunday because she has to work. She said that if I won't she will have to get a baby sitter. It is her weekend to have them. She sounded a little depressed.

I'm debating about whether to do it or not. My job requires on call time and I always make arrangements with my mother or other friends to cover if needed. She offers to be available by me giving her my cell phone so she can be wherever she wants (OM) and I can call her and she comes. I did that once with her and it killed me so I didn't do it again. The plus side of doing this is she will have 2 days where she will lose time to spend with OM because she will work this day and then pick up the kids from me and she will keep the kids on another day to make up the day I am giving her.

Would it be an LB to refuse or a good way of showing her life without me? I'm thinking about calling and leaving a message at her home telling her that she made her decision and my unavailability except in an emergency is one of the consequences. She has a week to find a sitter. It seems a little spiteful to say no. This is so hard. Thoughts?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by now what:
<strong>She called this morning on my cell phone and left a message asking me if I can take the kids this coming Sunday because she has to work. She sounded a little depressed.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure she sounds depressed. She is seeing her life closing in around her!! No more flitting through life in her "bubble world" of fantasy!! SHe must work, have kids, spend time w/om......so much to do, so little time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The plus side of doing this is she will have 2 days where she will lose time to spend with OM because she will work this day and then pick up the kids from me and she will keep the kids on another day to make up the day I am giving her.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The PLUS SIDE is going to be what she will have to scramble to make her OWN arrangements.

Remember, part of Plan B is to show the WS what life without BS is going to entail.....having to have ALL EN's met by OP, as well as taking care of ALL OTHER NEEDS this would include babysitting kids on "her" days.....if you were to end up div'd, this would be HER problem, right? This would not be "spite." You might have a new life with someone else, and truly be unavailable. DO NOT have these mental excercises with yourself, they are not productive. You'll begin to be as bad as the WS in terms of justifications.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm thinking about calling and leaving a message at her home telling her that she made her decision and my unavailability except in an emergency is one of the consequences.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY DO NOT DO THIS!!! Let her figure it all out for herself. IT IS "HER" DAYS W/KIDS. THIS IS HER MESS. LET HER FIGURE IT OUT. DO NOT ENGAGE. DO NOT CALL. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO "FIX" THIS FOR HER. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY NOT.

Did I tell you - "No" - don't do this? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Listen, if you've written a PBL, then she knows.

You're doing good.....she'll be home soon. Just don't blow it now!!

God Bless,

<small>[ July 28, 2003, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: lupolady ]</small>

Ditto what lupolady said!

By the way, I just wanted to make sure you heard what she said....NO CONTACT! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

In His arms

In the PBL I mentioned NC except regarding the kids. Mortarman, what type of child related issues did you have contact with W during your strict plan B (after Dec 17 is the date I think that you gave)? Also, what are your thoughts on a new PBL since I broke the orginal. If you read my posts I have been NC again for 7 days again w/o a new PBL. Thanks, NW

lupolady,

Why do you feel that she will be home soon? Others feel it too, I just don't see or feel it. I am going to refrain from calling her/helping her with this babysitting problem, however I know that she will view it as selfish (something she always said that I was), that I am bitter and have not really changed. Thanks. NW

Let me answer your questions here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In the PBL I mentioned NC except regarding the kids. Mortarman, what type of child related issues did you have contact with W during your strict plan B (after Dec 17 is the date I think that you gave)?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I kept it VERY strict We did nothing together as a family. She tried several times to circumvent it. Example? Right after I went to Plan B, like a week later, she call me after I had attended my daughter's school play (which she did not bother to show up for...because she was at her apartment packing getting ready to go to Florida with the OM to meet his family). since she hadnt shown up to the event, and the kids thought she was going to be there, I answered the phone (me and the kids were at a local pizza joint having dinner after the play). I figured my wife could answer my daughter's question on why she wasnt there (we didnt find out until she was already in Florida that she was going). Anyway, she sounds angry, and wants to know where we are at. I told her we were out to dinner. So, all of a sudden, she shows up, walks in and wants to sit down with us. She was there for about 20 minutes as we finished our dinner. I had not one word to say to her, I didnt even look at her. The kids talked briefly, but because of the tension at the table, it soon fell very silent for 10-15 minutes. When we got up to leave, my wife hugs the kids outside (again, she knew she was leaving the next day for Florida but the kids and I didnt), and then told the kids right there that we all wouldnt be together over Christmas because "your father doesnt want us together." I was not going to stand for that. So I chimed in that their mom understands what it will take for us to be together as a family again. It is her choice if we do not. And then we walked away

I leave you that story because inside me, it was heart wrenching. I could tell something was going on I could tell do to her anger that something was up. She was going to Florida to try to meet his family and to get things moving down the road towards marriage. I didnt know she was going at the time, but I could tell something wasnt right. But, she was in pain, and anger. Now, somebody that is supposedly in love, and going to meet their lover's family, and take a trip to Florida...why would they be angry? Well, because deep down, it is a fantasy, AND THEY KNOW IT! I now understand that what she was looking for was me to break my Plan B she wanted to go back to cake eating. Her trip to Florida would be so much more pleasurable if I was helping her eat cake. But I didnt play. Even though she was there talking to the kids, I said nothing. So, since I wouldnt back down, then she had to make the snide comment to the kids about Christmas. She wanted me to get angry, to LB...so that she could get angry, and thus justify the decisions she was making. Again, I did not take the bait. While I was VERY angry on the inside (especially for her not being there for our daughter), I didnt show it on the outside. I just said matter-of-factly that their Mom (notice I didnt address her!) knew how to get our family together again. And then I cut all conversation, grabbed the kids...and left.

The point to this is because you two are parents, you have to interact somewhat. But you do not have to enable her. Keep everything short and to the point. she tries to go somewhere else with it, cut it off...and leave (or hang up). Remember one of the emotional needs is family. Now, you might be trying to still be a good father and have a great family...but that isnt meeting her needs. That is because you are not including her in the family that SHE left. She wants in the family, then she knows how to get there. Otherwise, she is on her own and OM can fulfill her needs for family (hah! Good luck!).

Set up your boundaries. Only talk to her, except in emergencies with the KIDS, on pre-set days and times. If you can use an intermediary, even better. One way I did this was two nights a week, she would call, and I would update her on the status of the kids (school, baseball, whatever). I had written out the points on paper, so when SHE called (I never called her!), I would just read from the paper (very annoying), and then ask if she had any questions about the kids. I would answer only questions about the day-to-day stuff of the kids (no answering questions like "why cant we get along for the sake of the kids?"…do not answer any questions like this…just say "Wife, do you have any other questions concerning the kids?"). Once the questions were over, then we coordinated the schedules for her next visit or the next time they would spend the night at her apartment. And then I would hang up. No "I love you's," not even a good bye. I just hung up. Everything was VERY business-like.

When she would show up to see the kids, we would not talk. I would not allow it. Not even a discussion of the kids. The rules were that she would discuss these things via phone on our preset nights. When she came over, I left the room. If she was taking the kids with her for the night, then I would have the kids ready and waiting at the front door and have them meet her out front. When they came home, she would follow them half way up to our house, hug and kiss them, and then watch them run up the stairs to me. She would then turn and leave.

I hope you are getting the idea on how to do this. While you must have SOME contact, you decide when, where, and what. You dictate what you can discuss. Be bold, be strict. She will be angry for awhile, and accuse you of not changing, of not caring. That is all fog talk. Just keep on keeping on.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Also, what are your thoughts on a new PBL since I broke the original. If you read my posts I have been NC again for 7 days again w/o a new PBL. Thanks, NW </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Send the PBl you sent her (unless there is something that you forgot in the original). Every time she wants contact, send/hand/refer her to a copy. Then get out, hang up, etc. Really, she should get a copy every time she tries to break the PBL. No comments…just hand her a copy and leave. Or mail it, which is even better. Remember, Plan B is about protecting you also. Every time you talk to her or have contact with her, it will hurt you. Limit this. Stay tough.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">lupolady, Why do you feel that she will be home soon? Others feel it too, I just don't see or feel it. I am going to refrain from calling her/helping her with this babysitting problem, however I know that she will view it as selfish (something she always said that I was), that I am bitter and have not really changed. Thanks. NW</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know you are asking lupolady, and I am sure she will give you her 2 cents worth. I agree with her though. The signs are there that your wife is following my wife's path almost exactly. That is why you need to be very strict in your Plan B. Just understand that nothing is new under the sun. Your wife is not unique in this. She is following THE SCRIPT! So, you follow YOUR script. And she will come out of the fog and come home.

In His arms.

ooppsss...double post!

<small>[ July 28, 2003, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

^^^bump^^^

NW,

Sorry, I have been away for a couple of days, but MM has been giving you better advice, since he's BTDT!

One point I wanted to make was this: The reason all of us are telling you how important it is to remain in your strict Plan B, is that your W is trying to pull you back into her "web." If she is allowed to do that, then she is "cake-eating" again! She has BOTH you and OM doing her bidding, and her little fantasy world keeps her head fogged again.

What Plan B does is tilt her world (actually sets it back on its proper axis), so that she cannot continue in her fantasy that all this is working out wonderfully! When she has to deal with the guilt, the reality of what her life has become/WILL BECOME when/if you divorce, shows her the cold, hard facts of the life she is choosing. Of course she is going to be angry!!! She doesn't want to "wake up" from her dream.

Didn't you ever have a *wonderful* dream going, and then the DAM* alarm wakes you up!!?!?!?!?!? DON'T YOU HATE THAT?!?!?!?! This is just like that.

Plan A was all about showing her the changes YOU made to yourself. Acknowledging the mistakes that were made in the M, and showing her you could change them and the M. Plan B is about going to the next level. It is about showing HER how her life is going to be in the future if she continues to pursue a path away from you and kids. And it's about showing YOU how you will have to deal with her in a future without her, so you can move on, too.

Be realistic, NW, IF you ended up div'd, wouldn't you move on, marry again (whatever)? So IF YOU DID, you certainly would NOT want to leave your (then current) W, to do favors for your EX-WIFE WHO LEFT YOU FOR OM WHO SHE "LOVED ENOUGH TO BUST UP YOUR FAMILY FOR." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Sooooo, this is to make her see reality (instead of her fantasy) and FACE what her choices are leading to. And as MM has said more eloquently than I can (as he always does), you've got to stay strong in order for this "plan" to have the DESIRED RESULTS (which is W away from OM, and HOME w/you and your children).

Last point (I promise!) is this: OM probably spends a LOT of time talking to her and telling, "Kids will be ok. This will all be ok. We'll all get along and there won't be a problem with babysitting/visitation etc. once we get that [censored] H of yours out of our lives. We'll all have fun, and life will get better, and you'll be happy, and I'll be happy, and kids will love me..............
Well, you get the drill. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
What Plan B does is break through that fantasy and show her how FALSE that idea really is!!! It shows her how HARD all this is going to be, and starts to make her THINK - REALLY THINK about how this is all going to look One, two, or more years from now.........

It's the only thing that breaks through the fog. THAT's why there's such a strong belief in exposing the A to any-and everyone. It's the same logic that exposes the A, this tactic is designed to expose the AFFAIREE (WW) to HER position within the A.

Stay strong. You're doing good. The proof is in WW's actions. The angrier/nuttier she gets, the more proof your Plan B is working!!

Oh, I had to add this: Try to just "sit back and enjoy the show." It's really quite FUNNY to watch WS running around getting frantic, and NUTTY while they try to keep the fantasy alive. Actually rather pathetic......sometimes you can actually PREDICT what they're going to do next! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

God Bless,

<small>[ July 29, 2003, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: lupolady ]</small>

Thanks for your reply. Why specifically do YOU feel that she will be home soon as you mention in your first post? Or is the answer in what you just wrote? I guess I am always looking/hoping for the crystal ball answer. NW

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by now what:
<strong>
I guess I am always looking/hoping for the crystal ball answer. NW</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, it sux, doesn't it?? None of us has a crystal ball.

I am basing my opinion (and remember - THIS IS ONLY MY OPINION), my opinion that she is close to "breaking" from the A by her actions!

As I said above, her "spinning out of control" and trying to suck you in is a good indicator that she does not like this new place at all!! That's a good thing.

If you have time, go read Mimi's thread. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> OK, maybe not all of it. But it seems to me the last few pages, someone wrote about how the WS starts to twist, and turn, and spin when they are cuaght in their own web of deceit. THEY DON'T LIKE IT ONE BIT!! They really ARE all so predictable..........

Once they get to that place.............well, it's just like a fish on the line. All you gotta do is be patient. And keep doing what is working! (AKA: Plan B)

Regarding OM probably spending a lot of time talking about how everything will be ok. I'm sure he does, first of all he has social worker experience and knows how to be empathetic, understanding and pretty much counsel W for his own benefit. Second of all, he has been through this twice before. Yes he is twice divorced and both times for adultery on his part. Great guy huh? It makes me sick that she fell and continues to fall for this snake.

Well W called last night leaving a message that she would appreciate if I would call her. I didn't. Then she calls this morning sounding depressed/angry and leaves another message and says sarcastically that she really appreciates me calling her back (not) and hangs up. I still have not called. She probably just wants me to call her back for babysitting this coming Sunday for her because she has to work and it is her weekend with the kids. Why does plan B feel so wrong? I feel like I am making things worse.

I feel like calling her and telling her how I appreciate everything that she has done to me like break up our family, leave for another man and completely reject me and my efforts at change and reconciliation, and emotionally hurt me to the point that I have had to go on anti-depressant medication.

I talked with a good friend of mine this morning and he said that she will probably show up at my house in the next couple of days looking to get me back on the string with the, "we need to be friends and communicate if we are ever to work anything out."

I wish I knew what I could do to make this all really work out. Do you think that she is hurting and remembering what I worte in the PBL or just angry because I am ignoring her calls and won't help her with the babysittting? Do you think that she is conciously thinking / knowing what she has to do to end this?

At this point in time it is USELESS to try to figure out the mind of a WS and what they are making contact for. It could be to pick a fight with you, call you unreasonable for not babysitting for her (in Plan B you are not to pick up the pieces for her, let her experience life without your help). It could be to try the WHY CAN'T WE BE FRIENDS speech...it could be any # of things. Leave a message on her VM when you know she is not home and tell her to please refer to your Plan B letter and request that she respect it, unless it is an emergency regarding the kids. You said she should have no problem finding a babysitter didn't you, so that is NOT AN EMERGENCY.

NW,

Your comments about what you would like to say to here, are one of the major reasons Plan B works. It keeps you out of those types of arguements, and from LB'ing. From now on only the OM can LB, and he will. Before, she could always blame anything bad on you, even if OM did it.

With the kids, you need to find a 3rd party through which to communicate important child issues. That way if she needs to change something with regard to your child, she can communicate via the 3rd party.

Please set this up.

God Bless,

JL

PS: At the very worst have her email you, and you only respond to child related issues.

N_W!

Please stick to your plan. Don't give an inch of the ground you've aquired. Don't reply to her message. Delete it and forget about it. Don't bother decyphering it.

Plan B requires no contact, period!!! It has to be air tight. Some of us (me including) gave in to that urge to call, to find out what she thinks, find a glimpse of hope in her words, etc... only to pay a havy price. We are viewed as spineless creatures (could not "resist" the urge) that don't deresve WS' attention. It sends WS the message that they can do whatever they want (including having an affair) and thus ENABLING THE AFFAIR TO CONTINUE. Do you want the affair to continue? Then call her. Or, you want it to end? Then don't call.

Look at it this way. When she is trying to contact you, what she is really doing is asking your permission to continue (the logic is not that simple but it boils down to that). So once you engage, you say "Sure hon, go on. I'll be OK."

Once you give in, you're back to square one (or zero IMO). Everything you ganed from no contact until now is lost. Start over. Do you want that? I hope you know what your gains are not to let that be taken away from you. You have the power to get better, why give that power to someone else?

Here is a simpler plan for ya:

Follow these guidelines

#1 Maintain NO CONTACT.
#2 If contact is absolutely necessary see #1.

Of course there are always emergency situations. To be honest, for the past 10 years, I only saw them on TV. Chances are, there will be no real emergency that you WS will not be able to handle without you. Her emergencies could be comforted by OM if you're not around, couldn't they? So relax, don't try to accommodate her. Accomodate yourself instead.

Enjoy the show. It is only the beginning. Don't try to find out WHEN she is coming back. The story is just starting to unfold. You can be a participant of this sick play, or an observer behind mirrored, buletproof glass. You chose.

Take care of YOURSELF,

Big

NW-

I've been away doing some testing for my job. Just returned home and saw your email.

Remeber what I wrote over and over. Do not contact! She will pull away for a period of time out of Anger. Let her feel what she needs to feel.

Meanwhile, sit back and watch the pattern. You will find comfort in what recurrs because it does hold significance. She still has feelings and they are much stronger than even SHE realizes.

NC...all the way. Three weeks...