I just love it when the WS gets all huffy and mad when the >> cone of silence and protection << is lowered over the BS during Plan B....

They always crack me up doing all this big-bad posturing .... "How DARE you treat me this way!!!"

waah-waah-boo-hoo <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

The WS anger is a GOOD SIGN .... indiference is much harder to work with.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>
The WS anger is a GOOD SIGN .... indiference is much harder to work with.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ABSOLUTELY TRUE!!

Hang in, NW. We're all here going through it with you............

If you start to weaken, GO BACK AND RE-READ MY LAST POST TO YOU.

If THAT doesn't faze you, GO BACK AND RE-READ ANY OF MORTARMAN'S POSTS........

Hang in. Keep your eye on the prize (restored M).

Hang on tight. This is where it gets bumpy, and definitely NOT for the faint of heart!

God Bless,

Tonight when I arrived at daycare to pick up our children (my night with them), she is waiting in the parking lot with the kids. She had already picked them up from daycare. She was angry and said "Since you won't return my calls and this is the only way I can talk to you." She asked me if I would watch the kids for her on Sunday and I told her no and began to leave with the kids. She got real angry and said that the next time we talk will be in family court blah, blah. I then reacted and LB'ed her big time, thanked her for hurting me to the point that I need anti-depressants, thanked her for breaking up our family, told her to have her new boyfriend watch the kids etc...and that this is the life she chose. She then accused me of not loving her and how I am showing her the real me etc..., that she doesn't want to be with me and to get with it, and that she should have never come there. She also complained that I have told people that she left me for OM which she denies. She said that she left because of our problems and that he is not and was not the issue and that I don't even know what is going on with that.

I became emotional and tried to talk to her and we ended up talking for 15-20 minutes. Mostly me being an emotional idiot. I ended it with asking her if she has saved the letters and cards I have given her (including PBL) and she said that she had. I told her to re-read all of them, especially PBL and think about things. She said that she is always thinking about things. She left still angry, saying she take this anymore, that she won't call me anymore etc... I can't take this crap either, that is why I need to stay away from her. I wish she would leave me alone. I wish I din't LB her so bad but my resentment and anger is building.

I also ripped on OM and said some nasty things about him and told her that she was just trying to have her cake and eat it too. She told me that she doesn't want anything from me other then to be a good father and accused me of not being one because I am forcing her to get a babysitter on Sunday instead of taking the kids. She said "I have to work, I don't have some hot date" and that I coulde call work and check on that. She said because I can't get my way so I'm being a jerk and really showing her how much I care about her.

Your WS is using the standard script. Same stuff my WS said. She is desperate to get her fix with OM this weekend. She is being defensive, putting the blame on you, setting you up to LB in order to relieve her guilt.... The same old story. You're right. That's why we have to stay away from them. They will not listen to reason. Think of it as trying to reason with an alcoholic. That has been helpful to me.

Take Care. Don't believe a word she says about how she feels about you and her plans for your relationship.

NW,

***Here comes the 2x4...thwack, thwack, thwack.*** Had enough? You know, when I did stupid things like you just did, I now wish someone had just come along and kicked my you-know-what! It would have felt better than what you are feeling right now.

I want to say something first of all. And I am speaking for many who have given you EXCELLENT advice on this thread. We are human also. And I bet, if you go back to our threads, you'll find similar instances of brain-farts. Okay, so you arent alone.

Now, that being said ***thwack, thwack, thwack***. I'm doing you a favor here because it is readily apparent that you still have NOT had enough of what your wife is doing to you, to those kids...even to herself. When are you going to stop the pain to your family, NW? When are you going to save your wife from the destructive decisions that she is making? When? Let us know, because that day is the day that we can help you move forward.

You had her right where you wanted her. She was following the SCRIPT verbatim. As Kily predicted above, she was probably a couple weeks away from cracking, in my estimation. And now, you go back to square one! Welcome back to pain. Welcome back to the loneliness of being a BS. Welcome back to not feeling like you can control ANYTHING in your life. You like it here? You must.

Look. I am being hard on you because it is the military side coming out in me. You are making serious mistakes here. It is now YOUR mistakes that is costing your family valuable time, and causing all of you immeasurable pain. Are you a Christian man? If so, let me know, because I can give you some insight into this. But suffice it to say...YOU are the husband! You are responsible for your family...NOT your wife. You are responsible for your wife. Now you cannot force her to do anything. But, you are called upon to love her and guide her as Christ does us. She cannot do this. She is not equipped, just as you are not equipped with a womb!

So now, this mess starts turning around, as is indicated by her actions (thanks Pepperband...WSs are hilarious arent they?). She was going right down the predictable line of Plan B. She was on YOUR strings now, dancing to your tune. And you cut the strings.

Okay. I have beat you up enough (or have I?). So let me get to a previous post of yours...and then get to the mess you just created.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well W called last night leaving a message that she would appreciate if I would call her. I didn't. Then she calls this morning sounding depressed/angry and leaves another message and says sarcastically that she really appreciates me calling her back (not) and hangs up.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This was GREAT! All indications that your wife's fantasy world was falling apart.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I still have not called. She probably just wants me to call her back for babysitting this coming Sunday for her because she has to work and it is her weekend with the kids.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Probably. Typical stuff from the WS. But look deeper here. She doesnt just want a convenient babysitter. You already said she could find one on her own. Think man! What is it that she wants? Think! Come on, you can get this! She wants...YOU! She wants to not lose you, what you are and represent in her life. But she is in the fog and in a fantasy, and to come out of that is very painful. OM isnt going to help her come out of it because then he would lose, AND HE KNOWS IT. So, Plan B takes away the fog because pain enters her world...the pain of losing YOU! She didnt NEED a babysitter...she wanted YOU! NW...you are going to have to try to start trusting this stuff here (MB). Look deeper into your wife's words and actions, in light of what you now have learned about the nature of affairs. This then will give you strength, because you will KNOW that Plan B is right, and it is working. Once you see the entire truth.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why does plan B feel so wrong? I feel like I am making things worse.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because this stuff is not natural. The love of Christ is not natural. The natural thing to do after your wife left you for OM was to divorce her, take her for everything she had, destroy the OM, and then NEVER have anythign to do with her the rest of your life. That is the NATURAL thing to do. But NW...we are talking about love...unconditional love. That has to come from somewhere else. That is supernatural. It is that supernatural yearning that is what makes you fascilate between wanting to kick her out forever(natural), and bringing her home (supernatural). Read what I just posted above. Your Plan B was working PERFECTLY.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel like calling her and telling her how I appreciate everything that she has done to me like break up our family, leave for another man and completely reject me and my efforts at change and reconciliation, and emotionally hurt me to the point that I have had to go on anti-depressant medication.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First off, ALL of us BSs have felt this way. But since you felt it, you just couldnt control yourself...you just had to do this. You HAD to tell her...to get it off your chest. Feel better now? Of course not. Did it help anything? Of course not. NW, you are going to have to trust this stuff and begin to get smart.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I talked with a good friend of mine this morning and he said that she will probably show up at my house in the next couple of days looking to get me back on the string with the, "we need to be friends and communicate if we are ever to work anything out." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, you were wrong about one thing...she didnt show up at your house. You fell for it again. Let me tell you something I learned this past weekend. And I will be posting more of this on my thread as I try to work through all of this.

If you are a Christian, go back to Genesis, when God created Adam. Later on, He created Eve. Now, before Adam had Eve and they were married by God (this was the first marriage), do you see ANY reference to Satan interacting with Adam? Look hard. Guess what? You wont find any. How did Satan get to Adam? Through Eve and his marriage. Too often in today's society, we are so much behind women's lib (and no one jump on my head, because I will tell you...no one wants the best for my wife and daughter than I do) that men have stopped taking their leadership role in the home (please DO NOT read "dictator") seriously and have passed it off to their wives. And just as you are not equipped to birth children, God did not equip women to be the emotional and spiritual leaders in the family home. Go look up one instance...you cant find it.

But going back to Adam. There was a heirarchy. God, then Adam, then Eve, and then later children (too often today, we put children as FIRST priority in our lives, when they should be third, right after God and our spouse). But Satan got to Adam by upsetting the leadership role in the home. After the snake talked to Eve, Eve then came in and convinced Adam of that which he KNEW was wrong. Eve was now running the family...and sin entered the world.

I am not beating up on women here. As a Christian, I believe that men and women are different, and God set up marriage, and set up the rules for marriage. The husband leads...but does not dictate. The wife "submits", but that doesnt mean that she is second class, or does not have her own gifts and abilities. It means that when a marriage is joined by God, then it must function under the rules that He set up. Otherwise, we mess it up. When we follow His rules and guidelines, there is NEVER divorce...never an unhappy marriage. It is when we try to run a God ordained institution (He invented marriage) our own way. And we fail miserably. Look at the Harley principles. They are straight from the guidelines that are set up by God. But more on this on my own thread.

In your case, I wanted to show this because Satan got to you through your wife. Satan now has you in pain, down and out. Satan now gets you to "go off" on your wife, to help perpetuate this mess. Satan is laughing at you right now, just like he was laughing at me. He has you. When are you going to take charge, tell him to leave you and your wife alone, and you lead your family out of this? You have the power, you know. You were using your power...right up until you listened to Satan's lies again, and fell right back into his trap.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wish I knew what I could do to make this all really work out.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">***thwack, thwack, thwack*** NW, you DO know what you can do to make this work out. You were doing it. There is no magical potion. Either do this, or sit around wishing you you had the power. It's like telling someone that is sitting down in a chair "Please sit down." Well, they are sitting down. You have the power here. You are in control. She is not. She is out of control. Either use the tool presented, or do it your own way. So far, your way has yielded nothing in positive results.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you think that she is hurting and remembering what I worte in the PBL or just angry because I am ignoring her calls and won't help her with the babysittting? Do you think that she is conciously thinking / knowing what she has to do to end this?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, yes, and yes. NW, your wife is hurting. She has been hurting all through this. She was hurting before this (which is why she DID this). She is hurting. But she hasnt got a clue how to get out of this. You do. So, are you going to allow her to continue to hurt? If you TRULY love her, you KNOW what you have to do.

Now, your screw-up...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tonight when I arrived at daycare to pick up our children (my night with them), she is waiting in the parking lot with the kids. She had already picked them up from daycare.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, who didnt know this was going to happen? Your friends, even yourself, predicted she was going to come looking for you. Look at my previous posts on your thread. Look back at my threads when I was in Plan B. Same stuff, NW!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She was angry and said "Since you won't return my calls and this is the only way I can talk to you."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wrong, wrong, wrong. Okay, here SHOULD have been your response to that statement..."Wife, you have read my letter. I have instructed you on how we can talk again. And THAT is the ONLY way we can talk again." And then get your kids, ignore her yelling, angry accusations (hum to yourself quietly so you dont hear her), get your kids...and LEAVE! No good will EVER come from staying in a situation like this and talking. NONE!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She asked me if I would watch the kids for her on Sunday and I told her no and began to leave with the kids.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why didnt you? This would have been a homerun. Kily's 3 week prediction would have probably been right in the bag!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She got real angry and said that the next time we talk will be in family court blah, blah. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We told you she would be angry. We told you that she would say stuff like this (again, she is reciting the same crap my wife did..all fro mthe SCRIPT). Not a bit of truth about the court, might I add. She was threatening you, in order to get you to stay, to talk...to get her a nice big piece of cake.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I then reacted and LB'ed her big time, thanked her for hurting me to the point that I need anti-depressants, thanked her for breaking up our family, told her to have her new boyfriend watch the kids etc...and that this is the life she chose.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course you did this. And she won. And what did she win? More pain for herself, for you, for the kids. You did no one any favors here. You know something. My wife has been home 4 months now. Just three weeks ago, she had finally started realizing how much pain she had put me in (her words!). You see, in the affair, and even for awhile afterwards, she had NO IDEA the pain she was causing me. And I told her the same stuff you just told her. And she didnt even understand. You think she is just going to say "Oh, I'm sorry. I had no idea I was doing that to you. Let me go get my things and come home."? SHE IS IN THE FOG. While there, your pain is irrelevent.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She then accused me of not loving her and how I am showing her the real me etc...,</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Didnt I tell you that in one of my previous posts? Didnt everyone on here warn you that she is going to say some mean, and even crazy things? My wife said these exact things. Come on, dont listen to that crap. It isnt the truth, and YOU KNOW it. How do you know? Well, I gave you an example above about the babysitter. If she was showing you indifference, then that would be different. If she truly felt this way, she wouldnt call, she would get her own babysitter, and she would have paperwork for divorce thumbtacked by the local sheriff on your door. Any of that happened yet? Nope. So guess what? She loves you...and she knows you love her. That is what is causing her all of this pain. She wants YOU to end this, you to take the pain away. She is not capable.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">that she doesn't want to be with me and to get with it, and that she should have never come there.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fogese, psychobabble...come on NW. Read others threads on here. This is nothing new. And it isnt the truth.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She also complained that I have told people that she left me for OM which she denies. She said that she left because of our problems and that he is not and was not the issue and that I don't even know what is going on with that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Same EXACT position my wife had taken. look, ever wonder how your wife looks herself in the mirror while being so immoral? Read you last statement. My wife said that she was "done" with the marriage when I left for Bosnia, and because she was done, then she went out and met the OM. That our problems preceded the OM (which is the truth), and that she decided to leave. And then the OM showed up. So the OM isnt the problem. Blah, blah, blah. Same textbook, NW. Same SCRIPT. And all with only a shred of truth to it. And a lot of lies that she tells herself to make herself feel better about what she is doing. Because how can she look herself in the mirror and be proud of who she has become unless she concocts this position?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I became emotional and tried to talk to her and we ended up talking for 15-20 minutes.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Which is why you should have stuck to Plan B. The emotional part would have been a lot less if you had just walked away. And you woul be a lot closer to your goal now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mostly me being an emotional idiot. I ended it with asking her if she has saved the letters and cards I have given her (including PBL) and she said that she had. I told her to re-read all of them, especially PBL and think about things. She said that she is always thinking about things. She left still angry, saying she take this anymore, that she won't call me anymore etc...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wouldnt count on this. She'll call, especially if YOU go back to NC. She will find reasons at first (a bill, something the kids need, etc)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can't take this crap either, that is why I need to stay away from her. I wish she would leave me alone. I wish I din't LB her so bad but my resentment and anger is building.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Which is why you should have stayed in Plan B. You are not protecting yourself, your love, or doing your family any favors by talking to her. Stop it!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I also ripped on OM and said some nasty things about him</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well ,bet that felt good. Didnt do anything. As a matter of fact, that probably just put her closer to him since she is so angry, and then yo uare basically calling her an idiot for hooking up with an idiot. Trashing the OM never helps (believe me...I KNOW!)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and told her that she was just trying to have her cake and eat it too. She told me that she doesn't want anything from me other then to be a good father and accused me of not being one because I am forcing her to get a babysitter on Sunday instead of taking the kids. She said "I have to work, I don't have some hot date" and that I coulde call work and check on that. She said because I can't get my way so I'm being a jerk and really showing her how much I care about her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, all WS fog talk. Get over it.

Nw, I am going to continue to hit you with the 2x4 until you get his. I believe if you had handled that situation correctly, you would be less than a month from your wife walking out of the fog. But now she has receded deeper. Hope is not lost. Just some ground.

But here we are. Go back to NC. Stay dark. Dont call her back and appologixe for being a "jerk"...what is done is done. Just shut up and stay away.

One thing you can do is sit down and plan out scenarios (wargaming, as we call it in the military). Now, take each instance where your wife might try to get to you and wargame it. Wargame what just happened. Know in ADVANCE how you will react to her calls, her showing up, her lies, and her anger. Have YOUR SCRIPT ready to read from. Sit up at nights and write it out if you have to. Have escape routes. Comes up with different COAs (courses of action).

Okay, let's get back to work. You and Mimi are the closest on this board to going over top. Both of you have shot yourself in the foot recently and have extended your stay in Pain Land.

Now, make the decision that you are goingto see this Plan B through. Your way isnt working. Why not REALLY try this way? All the way thru.

In His arms.

<small>[ July 31, 2003, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

Mortarman:

There's some part of your personality that I am missing. Maybe it's the military discipline. I really, really appreciate and value your advice. You're wonderful and a pure genius about this stuff. However, I do not feel like I can measure up to your expectations. I can so easily fall under the spell of my WS if he can get to me. I believe that this is true for Now What as well. For want of a better word, I am easily seduced.

Mimi and NW-

I am going to try and say this as clearly as I can - ready?

You both are so darned close. As a former WS I am ashamed that I was capable of causing the type of pain that you both are feeling. I bet when you read my posts though, you don't get the imperssion that I could be like that towards someone...

I am also very saddened to see you both willing to accept such poor treatment from anyone. Where did the value that you held for your SELF go? Stop feeling like you aren't deserving! Stop being defeatest and believing that OP has everything and you aren't worth anything.

LOOK AT ME! I've been on my KNEES begging for forgiveness for almost a YEAR now. I know what I'm talking about when I tell you that NC will be the way to go.

NW-

Your best plan of attack is NC now! She is going tot be looking for you to crawl back to her on your knees now. NC. NC. NC. She will become even MORE angry because her MANIPULATION didn't work. See in her mind, she DID win. She was able to make eyou vulnerable like a puppet on a string. Stop it.

NC.

She will become even more cpnfrontational now because it worked the last time. Next time, take your kids and walk away. If you haven't got a custody agreement in place - start the process. That way you can prevent her just showing up whenever she wants at daycare.

NC-

Do I make myself clear?

MM,

I hear you. I made a big mistake in not just walking away. When I got out of my car that is exactly what I planned to do and in fact I had begun to walk away from her with my daughters until she started with her comments and I just lost control of my emotions. My mind knows the right thing to do, it's just that my heart does not and frequently controls me as it has all of us from time to time. I know that is the essence of plan B, to distance yourself and allow your mind to do your reasoning, not your heart. I have one question, I never reissued the PBL, should I?

Kily,

I hear you too. I have heard you all along, it's just the heart thing which will screw you everytime in situations like this. I appreciate your advice and concern as well as your insight from experience.

Mimi,

What can I say, we are both in the same boat and sometimes we are paddling forward, and sometimes we want to go back to where we just came from and start paddling backwards because we aren't sure if where we are going is right. Our hearts make it feel as though what we are doing is wrong but if we could make all of our decisions with our heads, this all pretty much makes sense. I dropped my oars in the water yesterday and slowed down my forward momentum and you have somewhat too. If only the WS would truly realize the depth of our love for them, they would understand. Anyways, time to start paddling forward again.

NW-

This isn't a major setback. Actually, it's an opportunity.

Yes, re-issue the Plan-B letter. Also, make it very clear that you will not tolerate being challenged any longer. In a loving way, explain to her that when she makes further attempts to contact you, you will walk away out of love and respect, not the opposite. It's time to protect your children from scenes like the one you described.

Also- I wanted to point out to you that your wife's behavior is not that of a rational person. She appears to be a child throwing a fiit because things didn't go the way she wanted them to. What happens when a child recieves tough love from it's parent? Doe the pattern continued if the negative behavior is rewarded?

How would tough love look? What would rewarding behavior look like? Hint (Plan-B, What you've described above)

You've got it, now use it.

Funny, she accuses me of acting like a child throwing a fit because I am not getting MY way.

Hey...now we are getting somewhere!!! I am going to get into these latest posts, because I believe Kily is on to something here (I'll get to her below).

First, Mimi's post...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> There's some part of your personality that I am missing. Maybe it's the military discipline. I really, really appreciate and value your advice. You're wonderful and a pure genius about this stuff. However, I do not feel like I can measure up to your expectations. I can so easily fall under the spell of my WS if he can get to me. I believe that this is true for Now What as well. For want of a better word, I am easily seduced.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay Mimi...thanks for the compliments. But let me tell you something...I havent been this way for very long. Ask Just Learning and others on here that helped me. Last fall, I was doing the same things you and NW are doing. I was very easily seduced by my wife. three times, I attempted Plan B from Aug-Dec 2002. Three times I failed. My wife would show up, we would have sex, she would talk about wanting to come home, that she just needs to work on some things then a week later, after I fall for it, she calls and says that it just isnt going to work. What I am trying to say is not that I am better at this than you. I MADE THE SAME MISTAKES AS BOTH OF YOU! What I am trying to say is that you are both so close to getting it back...that EXPERIENCE has taught me what should be done, as well as the Harleys and the other good people here. You are easily seduced by your husband? Of course you are. That is natural. But you have to be smart about this Has your way gotten your husband to give up OW and come home. Has anything, except talking, REALLY changed here? has he made ONE STEP, and step, towards getting rid of OW? How about NW's WW? You know the answer to this. More on this below. I just wanted you to know that I made the same mistakes you have (go back and search out my posts from last fall...you will see me saying and doing the same things you two are).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mimi and NW- I am going to try and say this as clearly as I can - ready? You both are so darned close. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Kily, this is EXACTLY right. Guys and gals...this is why we need counselors. This is why we need to post here and get advice In my own situation, I am constantly talking to my counselor or coming on here. Why? Because I am too close to the situation. I am too emotionally involved. That is why, when I finally did Plan B correctly, I surrounded myself with people who would hold me accountable. Then when I felt like screwing up, I would call them. And they would tlk me down. Or for awhile, when my wife had come to get the kids, for example, I was invited over to these friends house to help me decompress.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hear you. I made a big mistake in not just walking away. When I got out of my car that is exactly what I planned to do and in fact I had begun to walk away from her with my daughters until she started with her comments and I just lost control of my emotions. My mind knows the right thing to do, it's just that my heart does not and frequently controls me as it has all of us from time to time. I know that is the essence of plan B, to distance yourself and allow your mind to do your reasoning, not your heart. I have one question, I never reissued the PBL, should I?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, reissue the Plan B letter. Also, understand something here Read my previous long post above. When I talk about COAs. You are too close to the situation, too emotionally involved. Let me give you and example of what I am talking about. In the military, why do we constantly train, even on the most insignificant of things, over and over again? Because in combat, when your weapon jams, you arent going to be able to THINK about how to clear that jam. You are tired, hungry, scared...a hundred different emotions. The way you will react is what you train on. You will react to what is second nature. It is almost like autopilot

If you do not sit down and go over and over how you will talk, react, to your wife, then you will be a sitting duck to her emotional terrorism. Get a friend to "playact" with you. Have him or her be your wife, and set up different scenarios (have them call you on the phone, or just surprise you sometimes). I did this. I spent countless hours with good friends of mine, talking through what I should do, how I should react. Then I played these events over and over in my head I envisioned how my wife would react to my decisions and my actions (or inactions).

So, when my wife showed up or called, while my emotions were busting out and wanted me to be one way, my natural reaction was different because I had "trained" myself to react to her in a different way. One of the first things my wife said when we started reconciliation was that she began to think about coming home when I started standing up to her. Before, I just gave into her. But once I really went to Plan B, I began to show her strength. She began to respect me again. Your WW (and Mimi's WH) does not respect you. And why would you want to be with somebody that you don't respect? Train yourself in this. Study, train, run the COAs over and over constantly in your head. When you know you are going to be at a place where she is at (for the kids), gear yourself up. Prepare. And then DO NOT BE DIVERTED BY HER!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This isn't a major setback. Actually, it's an opportunity.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now this is what I am excited about! Kily is right. Okay, this as a setback. But I sat up last night thinking about how you can turn these lemons into lemonade (I know…corny!). As Kily said, she is going to expect a blithering idiot to self-destruct again. She is going to press hard for more concessions now. If you go dark, AND STAY DARK, she will get angrier. But remember, her threats are only threats until she does something about them. And if she really was done with you, really wanted a divorce, she would shut up and do it. But she doesn't.

So now, go to Plan B. train yourself in how to keep your boundaries up. And then wait and watch. Your wife will get downright kooky in this if you follow it through.

In His arms.

<small>[ July 31, 2003, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by now what:
Funny, she accuses me of acting like a child throwing a fit because I am not getting MY way.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's very true that you and your children are victims of your W's selfishness and thoughtlesness, but allowing yourself to feel like a victim will allow her to emotionally manipulate you whenever she feels she's losing control of you. Her taunts and accusations are the way she brings out in you those feelings of being a victim so that she in turn can feel confident that you are still hers. Plan B's no contact is an empowering tool for the BS because it shows that the BS will NOT allow him/herself to be a victim of the WS anymore. Keep this in mind whenever she tries to violate the no contact conditions of Plan B.

<small>[ July 31, 2003, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

I talked to W's wife for the first time in over a week. She told me that W had been distancing herself from OM and that she is beginning to see his true colors. She said that the OM had stalked them to a bar they were at and angrily confronted W. Asked her what she was doing, accused her of seeing someone else (wouldn't that be nice?), complained about her not seeing him as much and told her that she has changed. I guess she was very pi$$ed off called him a stalker and told him that he had no right to do that.
That all sounds good however today I drove by his house and they both must have taken the day off together because both of their cars were at his place. She didn't have our kids last night so I am assuming she spent the night there which of course upsets me. They must have made up, I don't know. I keep hearing about all of their issues/fights but yet it continues!?
The friend also told me about W's description of our run in the other day and told her that it hurts her and discusts her to see me so upset and that she wishes that I would give her space. Space to do what, to keep cheating and trying to figure out if OM is a good replacement for me? She told her that maybe in 6 months if I still feel as strongly for her and if she is still unsure of her life, that we can work things out then. W had also told me that day (I didn't put it in my post about the incident), "talk to me in 6 months" and I told her that why then? She didn't really have an answer and I told her that she will just be further away from me by then. She said that maybe she will and maybe she won't. Her friend gave me the old line that she is trying figure things out etc... Why can't she figure things out ALONE!!??

W also said that she is not bothered by my NC and knows that is what I have to do to get through this. Sounds like a Plan B failure in the works.

First off...I am angry. Angry because I jsut typed a 15 minute reply to your post, only to have MB log me off and lose everythign I typed <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> .

NW,

I am going to try to type what I said before it was lost. but the major part of this is that you need to understand that this is all good. She has NOW proven that she is on the fence I dont care what she said about NC being good for you. Sure, she believes that. But NW...she NEEDS you. Now more than ever. The OM is LBing her. Which means he is meeting less and less of her needs. Plus love busting her. You must go to Plan B now!!! And stay there!

They are startingto see the reality of each other and they dont like it. The damage is done but, they have to go thru this process. They built up units in each other's love bank. One or two incidents are not going to bust the bank. But they have now laid the path where they can see they are headed. And they dont like it!!!

Separate yourself from the situation NOW. Let him, while he is screwing up, try to meet all of her needs. He cant, and it will only hasten his demise.

NC is for you. She is right. But, what she doesnt know (or want to admit) is that she still needs you. She might try to sound brave, but deep down, she is scared that she wont have you. Especially sense she is stuck with psychoman!

By removing yourself from the situation, you allow her to have no one to go to to meet her needs when he is LBing her. After what your friend told you, it now makes perfect sense why she pursued you last week, why she wanted you to babysit, etc. She wants you to meet her needs. She wants you to help her stay on the fence. it is the only way to help prop up her relationship with the OM.

So, now is the time to STOP doing that. Please, listen. Go to Plan B. Stay there. Keep NC. She may think that you going to NC is all great, but I am willing to bet my nect paycheck that she wont hold that position more than two weeks, three weeks at max. Especially if the OM continues in his ways.

I predict that if you go dark, within two weeks, whe will try to re-establish a connection. She will try to get you to help keep her on the fence. Three weeks tops. Of course, you WILL stay dark. She WILL get angry. And then a couple of weeks later, she WILL have a HUGE breakdown with OM..and come looking to talk.

It is then you can go to the transition period I talked about on Mimi's thread. But you will only get there through the Darkness.

Start now!

In His arms.

Now What:

It helps me to imagine them fussing and fighting when they are alone together or just sitting around looking at TV. S**** doesn't take that long. It's probably lost the thrill for them and they are trying to spend even more time together to get it back.

A couple of weeks ago my WS took the OP out of town. Look what's going on with him now. They could not rekindle things. It didn't work.

The six months thing! Probably some theory she cooked up in her foggy brain. It's not based on rationality.

It hurts. It sucks. I know it but Hang In There!

PLAN B will work for you and it is working. Don't let those devilish negative thoughts make you think otherwise. Try to find some activities which keep your mind off of things.

I called W and left a message the other afternoon because the kids doctor's office had called and left a message reminding us of an appointment for 9am on Friday. I did not make the appointment so I assumed that she did. Of course as I mentioned in my previous post, she was at OM's house Friday instead of working and didn't take the kids.
She called either last night or this morning (I didn't get it until this morning) complaining about me asking the kids questions (I ask if OM is at mom's house when they are there etc...) I know I should not do that. She then said she would like to know about the doctor's appointment and ended it with , "But I'm sure you won't call me back." She sounded depressed and frustrated.

I realize asking the kids anything is probably an LB and part of the reason she sounded the way she did. But I keep FEELING that NC thing is going to make things worse between us in the long run. That she is just going to look at me and feel that I am an angry person who did not get my way and justify why she left in the first place. I know her and that is what is going to happen.

Believe Me, NC does not make things worse! She is the one trying to get her way. She wants a return to the status quo. She is learning to respect you. You deserve that.

Remember that she is having an A. There is never any justification for that regardless of what problems you may have had in your marriage. Her A is the problem now. She wants be defensive and take the responsibility for this tragedy off of her. She is the one that is putting her children in this position of you having to ask them about their safety. You have that duty as a father to check on their safety and well-being the best way that you can right now. Believe me, their best interest are not her priority right now. Her focus is on getting her fix.

Go back and read over MM's posts. I find that helpful to me when I want to backslide.

<small>[ August 02, 2003, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

NW

NOBODY, not even Dr Harley, will guarantee that the best Plan A and Plan B strategy can save your marriage, but it has been proven with thousands of couples that it has the best chances of succeeding when compared to other strategies. Why are you expecting your Plan B to yield positive results so soon after you implemented it?