NW,

Listen to H4F. My wife did the same things. What you dont know is the inner turmoil she is going through. Some of the intel you have gotten has shown that this is going on. Now, you could be right there, riding the rollercoaster with her. But you are in Plan B, and thus, she is riding it alone. Let her. Stop watching her ride it. Some days she will be up, some down. But always this nagging pull back towards you.

The events you KNOW about over the last few weeks (of course, there are probably many you dont know about) testify to the fact that the relationship with the OM is in its death throes. No matter how hard they try, the evidence now shows that they have VERY serious problems (as predicted!). They may try to fix it...but the problem with trying to fix it is that there is no basis to their relationship. Spiritual? Hardly...I mean come on...they are living in sin. Emotional? Well, partly...but remember, they both know who they are sleeping with. And they know, if they can do it with you, they can do it to you. Their relationship is based on lies, betrayal, immorality and distrust. So, as they go to work on their problems, they have NOTHING to fall back on.

Then she starts looking home. And she remembers a man that at the base, was her friend and her husband. That had a relationship with her based upon trust, love, family, etc. NW...THERE IS NO COMPARISON! But first, she must finish destroying her affair. And that is BESt done WITHOUT your help.

So, stay the course. You are close to a break through. While you may never get back together, the odds are that you will. The OM is the one fighting the odds. And so far, he is losing.

Stop being so pessimistic. You KNOW you are right. Be confident. Do as H4F said...concentrate on yourseld, and readying yourself for her return, should she come home. How do you do that? Well, take this time alone to get the rest of your life in order. Work, finances, home. Your spiritual relationship with God Use this time for rest.

As I am now in recovery, I can testify that I am actually finding it much harder than Plan A and B. Part of me, on the return of my wife, thought the "war" was over...that I could rest now from the hell I had been through. Not so. As in Iraq, the war may be over, but the peace must be fought now. And fighting the peace is increasingly being found to be much more difficult than the war.

So prepare yourself. Get your head on straight. Seek counseling. Be ready to forgive your wife, to show her grace.

You have ALOT to do, NW. Stop worrying about what you cannot control, and get busy on what you can.

In His arms.

h4f,

As a FWS what are your thoughts as to how close the end is here? I'm starting to think that some of her reaction was out of guilt over how she has hurt me, not her thoughts of returning. She says so much good about me and there are so many issues with OM that by listening to the words one would wonder why she has not returned. She even told me that she wishes that she never became involved with OM and that if it wasn't for him she would probably be back by now. I think that it is obvious that her feelings for OM are very strong because she is giving up a lot, and causing a lot of pain for a lot of people, even herself, to continue this and yet she does.

NW

MM,

Thanks. I was typing my post below yours when you were submitting yours. As I read about your recovery and how you thought that the war was over, I immediately thought of Iraq and then of course as I read further you used that analogy. I guess you are rubbing off on me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I am hoping for peace in your home and as others wrote, maybe 5 1/2 months is not enough time yet for her. You have been ready for her return for a long time. Working and striving towards it,preparing for it, however she just decided to return a few months ago. Without the preperation, thought and anticipation that you had. Some of the answer may be with what I have said.

My pessimism in my situation lies in what I wrote in the post above this one. So many words that would lead one to believe one way, and actions that do not coincide with the words.
NW

----

<small>[ August 18, 2003, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

NW,

H4F I am sure will weigh in with some EXCELLENT advice. but I thought I would use YOUR words to show you something here (and my inserts will be in bold)...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As a FWS what are your thoughts as to how close the end is here? I'm starting to think that some of her reaction was out of guilt over how she has hurt me, not her thoughts of returning (quitting cocaine). She says so much good about me (getting clean) and there are so many issues with OM (her cocaine addiction) that by listening to the words one would wonder why she has not returned (quit using). She even told me that she wishes that she never became involved with OM (never started using) and that if it wasn't for him (cocaine) she would probably be back by now (back on her feet by now). I think that it is obvious that her feelings for OM (desire for cocaine) are very strong because she is giving up a lot, and causing a lot of pain for a lot of people, even herself, to continue this and yet she does.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You see, it is an addiction! Since we BSs have not been addicted like this, we dont understand it. But look at it in the terms I outlined above, and see if you have a different reaction to what you have written.

Your wife sees great things in you now (a HUGE change over the start of the A) and bad things in OM (a HUGE change over the start of the A). The scales have slipped your way, NW. Dont you see it?

Please, re-read AGAIN my thread from last January. At this juncture, you are NO different than me. The ADDICT must want to heal before they can get help. And thus, they must "bottom out." Most addicts KNOW what they are doing is wrong and it is harming everyone. but until they bottom out, they feel powerless in the face of the addiction.

Your wife has been showing signs of bottoming out. Dont break her fall...she NEEDS this in order to get over her addiction.

In His arms.

<small>[ August 18, 2003, 10:24 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

TMCM - I'm not sure what you meant by that. My initial impression is you are breaking my ba!!s although I'm not sure why. Or should I just take your comment at face value?

MM - I understand what you are saying. It is hard to figure out what WS is doing / saying, when I /we are using a rational mind to try to come to that conclusion. I am still very interested in h4f feelings.

NW

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TMCM - I'm not sure what you meant by that. My initial impression is you are breaking my ba!!s although I'm not sure why. Or should I just take your comment at face value?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Ooops wrong thread. Never mind.

For all those who have posted on this thread. BIG Thankx,

NOW WHAT,

I know and feel exactly what your going through as I'm in a similar boat. My WW left for OM who is also married. He and his wife were friends of ours and he moved hundreds of miles away from home to be near my WW.

WW left and told me all the usual stuff. "it's over" etc. etc. I though it's really over before I even new what happened. How could I now compete with her feelings when WW and OM were now going to be together full time? So all I could do was Plan A when I could and without kids it was limited to a couple of times a week.

Then my WW began distancing her self from me which was very confussing as I was doing a great Plan A. I though this stuff doesn't work she's just creating more distance between us and focusing on hr relationship with OM.

Looking back I think part of her pushing me away had to deal with the building termoil within the affair because shortly after her move further away from me the OM told my WW the affair was over.

It was the first week of June when OM said the affiar is over. Oh Joy right? Not really my WW went no-contact on me, said she needed space. "I needed to move on" "things can't change"

So I started to think that WW is focusing all her energy towards saving the affair and because she went no-contact on me I've lost all control, no more Plan A and she's given me and our marriage the death blow.

Week 6 into her no-contact I email my WW about picking up her mail. And I get a nice email back asking about what I've been up to and telling me about her life a little. And I can put the mail int he mail box for her. Well hit me with a brick but doesn't WW knock on the door while picking up her mail and engages me in a 15-20 min conversation.

Week 9 into her no-contact I again email WW about picking up her mail and this time I ask if she's still seeing OM and if I'm now just part of her past. I get a harsh email response from WW "what does it matter" "I don't know what the future holds". Then I get a second email asking me to get a drink after work even though her first email seems to be filled with anger.

Now this was a little move in a differant direction for my WW because "are you still seeing the OM" is a simple Y/N questions. And our future used to be "it's over". Then during our drink my WW slips up and says the reason she's not able to make me happy right now is because she's not happy.

Now I'm not sure what to make of all this initialy until the next day OM wife calls and tells me he's been calling her and asking about them getting back together. Confiding to his wife that he's not sure if he's in love with my WW and knows the affair won't work in the long run. All those conversations were going on during the previous 3 weeks (weeks 6-9) with increasing regularity.

Week 11 - OM wife calls me again tells me that OM is miserable, hates his life, how he feels about himself and wants to work things out. Remember he left everything behind to be close to my WW.
OM wife finds out that the affair is still ongoing but obviously by her husband emotional state over the past 4-5 weeks it's not what it used to be. She tells him that until he breaks all contact with my WW not to call again and that she's going away for a week. Which she did and he doesn't know how to contact her.

So what I'm trying to express to you is the steps may be very small and may not become clear as they are actual happening. But I know just from simple logic that if OM is that upset, confussed etc and all he has is my WW to be with then my WW must be feeling much of the same strain.

There is no comparison to the affair relationship today VS before it was out in the open. No more secret weekends of fun.

Hang tough.

First W's friend called and asked to borrow something from me. While on the phone I asked her what W had said to her the other day. She was busy and did not have time to talk long but said that W cannot believe that I still love her and that she has been thinking a lot about me. She said that W told her that OM is not the man for the rest of her life and that she is very confused, messed up and trying to figure things out. She said that she has thoughts of coming back but wants to make sure that it is right and that it will work before she committs to me. That she does not want to lead me on and wants to make sure that it will be right...Pretty much the same stuff I have heard before. She told me that there was more but she was busy at work and could not tell me all of it. Now the not so good news.

I screwed up. I' not sue how much. I was driving along coming home late from work. It was my night with the children and a sitter had come over for me. As I may have mentioned, OM lives near my new home and as I reached the light to his intersection, I saw W coming from the direction of her house. Of course I watched her drive to OM's house and my emotions over came me. Not anger, but hurt and pain. I stopped in front of his house and when she got out of her car I yelled her name and told her that I hoped that she had a good night. It was around midnight. She said that she had just gotten out of work from working a double (the time would be right) and I said I guess you are real concerned about my feelings and me seeing her with OM. She told me that she was tired of me and to quit following her. I told her that I was not following her, I just got out of work and we happened to cross paths. She told me to go home a different way and I said that this is the shortest way home and that I just happened to see her. I told her that I should have known that she was not coming to see me or her children and she said, "Oh my god." I then told her that I was sorry to bother her, take care of herself and drove away. I did not call her any names or display any anger but I KNOW that I should have just kept driving and that I accomplished nothing. I did not seek her out, it just happened. My emotions just overcame me. I am starting to doubt my desire fo this relationship. I know that I should not rise and fall with every little event, but the more time she spends with him I just don't know. I am waiting for the 2x4's or whatever you think necessary. Or if you want to give up on me like I am thinking of giving up on myself, that's ok too. I am getting very tired, bitter and fed up.

"I am getting very tired, bitter and fed up."

Because you are not in a true Plan B. Plan B is to PROTECT your feelings of love, long enough for the WS to get a dose of reality and have a chance to pull their head out of their butt. You aren't protecting your feelings, you are joining her on the roller coaster.

Quit communication with the friend.

Find a different route home.

Find something else to occupy your time and mind.

It's time for a real Plan B, or you're going to wind up divorced. Plan B IS getting off the roller coaster...try it.

Now What:

You know that I certainly know how it is.

What you can do is GET BACK UP ON THE HORSE.

I would recommend writing another PLAN B letter and to stop talking to the friend. I'm not sure the friend truly has your best interests in mind. Seems like some sort of a power trip and she keeps you hooked.

When I really tried PLAN B, it worked for ME. I started focusing on my life and got out of their mess. It truly will help you.

My WS has told me that when I did the begging, pleading, etc. it truly was a turn-off. Now she has you to talk about with the OM. This is not a kick to you NOW WHAT. It is to remind you that backing off is your only chance at reconciliation. Easy for me to say. I understand. I have almost failed a zillion times. Just keep trying, NW. That's the best we can do under these awful circumstances. Sure it hurts like hell to see your WW pull up to his house. Remember going there and confronting her won't make it stop. Nothing will make it stop. I realized I just had to LET GO and LET GOD and focus on taking care of myself. Put it into GOD's hands.

LOVE MUST BE TOUGH by DOBSON which MM speaks of is GREAT. See if you can find that book today, NOW WHAT.

Take Care.

NW,

Well, my friend...no 2x4 here. You know why? Because you have already beat yourself up by coming off of Plan B and letting your emotions get hammered again. Also, because I did some of the same things...although I did call my wife names. So I guess, you did a little better at this than I did. but a failure is still a failure.

Now, why do I call it a failure? Because your love bank got demolished last night...because you gave her another reason to go into that house with him and try to make it work. You see, your wife is struggling When you have been in Plan B, she cant use you as the whipping boy, the glue that keeps their relationship together. Sounds sick, doesnt it? And it really is! I have found that it is the BS, and the anger that the WS has for them, that fuels the fire that keeps the A going. That is why Plan A and Plan B work.

Plan A puts a different seed in their mind. Instead of the terrible person they have made the BS out to be, their fantasy perception of them is broken...whether they admit it or not. As a matter of fact, they dont admit it because to admit the changes and admit how much they were wrong about the BS, would also be for them to admit that they are completely screwed up and living an immoral lifestyle.

Once the seed has been planted, then Plan B. Plan B takes the BS COMPLETELY out of the mix. The seed is growing. The WS and the OP want that seed to die. So they focus on the things that the BS does and try to find evil everywhere, even in the smallest of things. You had better believe that the OM took the opportunity to instruct your wife on how she is crazy to consider such a man that does such "crazy and hurtful" things. That you are dangerous, that you are staling her. That you think you "own" her. And more stuff like that.

But in a true Plan B, with the seed of Plan A (which your wife has seen & is the reason why she has been talking so well of you), causes them to not have the BS to use to keep them together. Now, they have to make it on their own, on their own merits.

Now what does that look like? Well, think of what kind of man sleeps with a married woman? Is that kind of person the type of person your wife would normally associate with or want to spend her life with? Of course not, and she has admitted as much lately. For the OM...what kind of woman just up and leaves her husband and children for some guy? He KNOWS that when he looks at her, that she is the wife of another man. That if she will do it with him, she could do it to him.

These are the dynamics of their relationship. Unsaid? Sure. But it is the turmoil that is going on in their heads. Your wife is now at the point where she is asking the questions, but doesnt yet have the answers. She wants to know how, if what she sees in you is true, that she could be so terribly wrong. She wants to know how she ended up being an adulteress. And many other questions. Then, you walk into the picture again, not keeping your word (that you would maintain NC until OM was gone)...and she has more fuel to walk back into that house and retry that.

You see, if you hadnt of gone that direction, if you had chosen a different path to drive so you would never run into her by accident...if you had, even with bumping into her, just kept driving, here is what would have happened at that house. She would have walked in after working a long double. Her kids are with her husband, so there is NO family there to greet her. There is the OM, the one I described above. He will also be tired from his day at work. They will try to make small talk, all the while remembering the hard times they have been having lately. Their fire is burning cooler now, because they dont have the "common enemy" to beat up anymore...YOU. So, they wash up, go to bed and fall asleep...and feel like something is missing. And she will be falling asleep, not thinking of that worthless man lying next to her...but thinking of you and the kids. And she will continue to spiral downward toward the bottom.

NW...THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS IN MOST OF THESE RELATIONSHIPS WHEN THE BS GETS OUT OF THE WAY! Please, any FWSs...help me here Let me know if I am off base.

Listen to the advise you just got. Now, you didnt go off on her, so it wasnt a complete loss. In some ways, she will have walked back in that house knowing that she is definitely not leading a good life. But NW...you have to stop this now. For YOUR own sake. As was stated above...get off the rollercoaster. Let her ride it. And the only way to get off is to get completely away from her. Use extraordinary precautions to stay away from her. If you have to drive 10 miles out of the way to insure that you dont see her...then do it! You see, if you will disappear, one thing that will go thru her mind as she falls asleep is what is going on with you, what are you upto, are you still there? When you do stuff like this, she KNOWS you are still there...and thus has more time to "work things out."

When you decide to do this right and go ALL the way, then you will get what you want. That may not be your wife coming back, although I believe if you get your act together, there is a good chance you will. But as was stated above, you keep this up...YOU WILL BE DIVORCED! Sure, the OM no longer has a snowball's chance in Hades of making it with her...but you may not either if you keep this up.

Listen to the FWSs on here. Listen to those of us that have been thru this, and have screwed up even worse than you have and still made it. Have faith that what is going on behind those 4 walls of that house is not all fun and games.

Have faith in God. Leave her to Him. He promised you He will take care of things.

In His arms.

NW,

If you are not smart enough to take all of the advice you are being offered here, then take your W's advice. LEAVE HERE ALONE, COMPLETELY ALONE Find another way home, and realize you have people who respect you, your children love you, and your family will support you. She has... the OM. What a bargin!

NW, you have to wake up and realize that NC is best for you in many many ways. Please, please knock off the "woe is me", stuff and start focusing on your children, your life, your friends, and your life. You are so worried about your W that you are going to screw up your life and that of your children. Stop it. FOCUS on the task at hand.

Your W is NOT the task at hand. The hard cold fact is, she is not part of your life anymore and she may never be again. So get YOUR life together and allow her to do the same. You may or may not be happy with her choices but they are her's.

Also, do as MM and others have said, quite talking to WW's friend. It does you no good at all, it simply hurts you. THey are only words NW, and words ARE NOT actions. You must wait for action from your WW or you must take action yourself. But, the words don't help. They didn't help last night did they?

Please do a real Plan B and leave her alone, completely alone.

God Bless,

JL

W called in the early morning after the last incident I posted about and left a long voice mail on my phone, telling me that I have no idea what is going on, that she has a lot going on in her life, that I can jump to a lot of conclusions about what is really going on etc.. She commented that she hadn't slept all night and sounded very depressed.

She said that the things I am doing renforces to her why she left (even though almost everything I have been doing is a 180 from before) and that I have never given her time to think and figure out what she wants. She also expressed sadness over the fact our oldest daugher's birthday was that day (yesterday) and that she knows that she can't call because I won't pick up the phone.

She called again last night and left a message asking me to have our daughter call her because she knows that I won't answer the phone or call her. It was D's 6th birthday so I arranged the call but did not speak to her. She sounded very depressed again.

I wrote another Plan B letter and sent it. I ordered the book Love Must be Tough as MM and others suggested and will read it. I also plan on trying to completely distance myself from all of this including coming here as often.

It's not a good idea to stop coming here. We can provide support. Otherwise, she is likely to suck you back in. She knows all the moves. My WS does it to me everytime I go away from here and don't listen. Don't make my mistake, Now What.

The book sounds like a good idea. Be careful, like Mimi said, about getting sucked back in and also be careful not to get depressed. Sometimes people back away from everything and choose to withdrawl instead of getting out and on with life.

I'm sure your wife is depressed. I came to realize I had been depressed for a year before I finally did something about it. People told me and told me, and I kept figuring it would go away. Actually, my words were "It's the situation, if I fix the situation I won't feel this way". Well, I COULDN'T fix the situation BECAUSE I felt that way. Luckily I came to realize that. Your wife is just feeling the consequences of her actions. Let her pout and throw it all back in your lap...the bottom line is that she's where she is because of her choices.

Are there any new hobbies you might have thought about taking up??

Mimi - I hear you. It's just that sometimes I keep this whole thing on the surface so much I can't get it out of my mind. I'm thinking that I may get stronger if I just try to forget about all of it. I probably won't stay away from here much. In a way I kind of enjoy talking and hearing from all of you even though the situations that bring us together are bad.

h4f - I have been depressed. I started taking some medicine and feeling better but the recent events, her coming around, calling but with nothing really changing as set me back and I am feeling bad again. Today in particular. I know that W is depressed and has been, even before she left. However, just like you said, she chose to address the issues by running away thinking that will fix everything. I think that she has found that it has not and in many ways things are much worse. When she looks to me to be there and make everything smooth for her and enable her and I won't, I have told her that it is the result of her choices. She knows that and in fact said that in one of her recent messages, "I know this is the result of my choices." Of course she tries to twist it around like I am proving to her why she left because I won't let her eat cake and in her words "making things hard for her" like I am intentionally being vindictive. I know that deep down she knows the truth.

As far as hobbies, I have a motorcycle that I hardley ever ride and a new house to docorate. I just really haven't been feeling like doing much of anything for a long while. I have the classic symptoms of depression. Some of the pain has subsided and I do not feel the urge to cry as much but I still am very down.

NW

NW,

Well, your wife has weighed in. And pretty much said EXACTLY what I told you above, and what others told you above. You have no idea what her life is like right now. The turmoil. The depression. Look...she has you out of her life for the most part, and the OM full time...and she is depressed. Do you think that sounds like a recipe for success in their relationship?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">W called in the early morning after the last incident I posted about and left a long voice mail on my phone,</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ask yourself this question, NW...WHY did she call? You know WHAT she said...but the REAL question is WHY did she call in the first place? Why did she feel that she had to say those things in the message? When YOU can answer those questions, then you will know what to do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">telling me that I have no idea what is going on,</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And you were told this before.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">that she has a lot going on in her life,</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NW, many here, including FWSs have told you many of the things that are going on in her life right now. That friend of hers has also given you a glimpse. Now, your wife felt compelled to leave a message to tell you the same things. Now, the main reason is that things arent good in fantasyland, and she is beginning to miss you. She is trying to make decisions now on how to extricate herself from her mess. What does Dr. Harley say? When the WS is deciding between the BS and the OP, it is time to go dark...Plan B. Your wife has just reinforced these facts in her statements. She is on the fence now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">that I can jump to a lot of conclusions about what is really going on etc..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly!! One of the truest statements you are going to hear for awhile. She is trying to get a message to you from inside the Fog. That message is that she is lost and now knows she is lost. All she can do right now is take care of herself. And, you have no idea what it is like for her right now. She hasnt a clue how to get herself out of this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She commented that she hadn't slept all night and sounded very depressed.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">HHmmmm. I think I will give you another quote from above to help illustrate that you need to have faith in what you are being told, on the MB program.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You see, if you hadnt of gone that direction, if you had chosen a different path to drive so you would never run into her by accident...if you had, even with bumping into her, just kept driving, here is what would have happened at that house. She would have walked in after working a long double. Her kids are with her husband, so there is NO family there to greet her. There is the OM, the one I described above. He will also be tired from his day at work. They will try to make small talk, all the while remembering the hard times they have been having lately. Their fire is burning cooler now, because they dont have the "common enemy" to beat up anymore...YOU. So, they wash up, go to bed and fall asleep...and feel like something is missing. And she will be falling asleep, not thinking of that worthless man lying next to her...but thinking of you and the kids. And she will continue to spiral downward toward the bottom.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Cant you see that your wife is NO DIFFERENT than most of the WSs you read about on here. I see your problem right now, NW, as a lack of faith in God and in the program that has started bearing fruit for you. A baseball game is nine innings long. You have to play the WHOLE game to see who wins. In those nine innings, a lot can happen. The opposing team can hit a few homeruns. Their pitcher can blank your batters for most of the game even. But what matters is that you keep battling. What matters is the score at the end of the game.

One thing someone said to me (I think it was my lawyer) back this past May (a month after my wife came home) was very helpful in this. You see, I was sittign there wrapping up things with him, getting the divorce I had started cancelled. I was bemoaning the fact that I still wanted to "square away" the OM. He looked at me and said "Why? You won. Your wife came home didnt she? She left him didnt she? You won?" And I did.

But at the end of the game, if she still hadnt of come home, I could still have "won." How? Well, you see, late in the game, I began to see my hitting and pitching problems and began to make some changes. As I did, the game began to turn around. Now, if my wife had left at the end of the game, that would mean I would have lost, right? Sure...at the end of nine innings, I had the lower score. BUT...because of my actions and changes in the late part of the game, because I had battled back, I was more prepared for the next "game." Sure the first 7 innings I had problems. But the last two I was great, and I can take those two great innings into the next game.

Now I know this baseball analogy doesnt work entirely. I mean, marriages arent games. But, if you can see that no matter what happens, you will improve, you will get stronger, you will fix your mistakes, then no matter where your wife ends up, the woman next to you will be one thankful for who she has. And you will have won.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She said that the things I am doing renforces to her why she left (even though almost everything I have been doing is a 180 from before)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, she couldnt go a whole conversation without some sort of psychobabble...this was fog talk.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and that I have never given her time to think and figure out what she wants.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And you havent. This may be somewhat fogese, but the reality is that until you go dark and stay dark, she is going to continue to have trouble seeing reality.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She also expressed sadness over the fact our oldest daugher's birthday was that day (yesterday) and that she knows that she can't call because I won't pick up the phone. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And you think this doesnt bother her? Of course it does. And there is NOTHING the OM can do to help her through that. She misses you and her family together. This will continue to eat at her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She called again last night</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">HHmmm...sounds like trouble in paradise still, huh? She wants her family. And even though she isnt ready to admit this yet, she wants YOU. Stop giving her ammo to stay in the fog. Let her go through this. She has to go the whole way and you can do nothing to help her right now...except stay out of the way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and left a message asking me to have our daughter call her because she knows that I won't answer the phone or call her. It was D's 6th birthday so I arranged the call but did not speak to her. She sounded very depressed again.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is good you set up the call for your daughter. Good for your daughter obviously! But also good for your wife, because it reinforces a few things. First of all, it reinforces that she is alone. No family. Here it is her daughter's birthday, and she is relegated to making a phonecall like some grandparent who lives out of state. And this is her daughter. Very depressing stuff, NW. Secondly, when she hung up that phone, her mind began to whirl. She began to think about past birthdays for your daughter, with all of you together. She thinks about future birthdays, with more like this one. And I am sure she just sat down and cried. REALITY is now setting in! As was said above, the consequences for her actions are now coming to where she can see them. She is in PAIN! And NW...there is NOTHING you can do about it. She did this...she is going to have to get herself out of it. Oh, and thirdly, she knows that Plan B is back on but you are still there, still wanting to be her husband if she will only make the right decision. It is that glimpse of hope that will lead her out of the fog.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wrote another Plan B letter and sent it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very good.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I ordered the book Love Must be Tough as MM and others suggested and will read it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Great. It will go further into the dynamics of Plan B (although Dobson doesnt call it that). You will see more of the "why" Plan B works.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I also plan on trying to completely distance myself from all of this including coming here as often.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, staying away from her is good. But NW...you need to understand that you have A LOT of work to do. And coming here is going to help that. What if your wife called tonight, said she just left a NC letter to the OM, and needs you to help her get her stuff out and bring her home? Are you ready? Really?

I thought I was ready, and I wasnt. Many of the problems you see on my thread right now are because I hadnt addressed many of the hurts and anger that were inside of me. So, when my wife came home, and then things werent doing so well for awhile, those angers and hurts came up with a vengeance.

NW, are you ready for her return? are you ready, if she doesnt return? YOU HAVE A LOT OF WORK TO DO, and many on here who have been through this that are now in recovery or have divorced, can help you work on you and get your stuff straight. And then no matter what woman is lying next to you at night (your current wife or a new wife), you will be prepared to give her your all.

In His arms.

PS...there was one other thing you posted...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I just really haven't been feeling like doing much of anything for a long while. I have the classic symptoms of depression. Some of the pain has subsided and I do not feel the urge to cry as much but I still am very down.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Get meds and stay on them. And on doign things like decorating your house? Well, one thing that Steve Harley told me was that I needed to be a good actor. To everyone around me, and especially myself. MAKE myself believe I was okay. To fake it until I made it. You will have to FORCE yourself to do thinsg at first. You may even have to play "games" with your mind in order to get yourself moving. But I will tell you this...one thing that will help you right now, when everything you do seems to be failing, is to string together a few successes. It will change your whole outlook (and will be VERY appealing to the woman in your life!)

<small>[ August 20, 2003, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

Mortarman and the others are right on with what they are telling you.

They have been there and I'm just a little ahead of you in all this mess. So if you don't believe them believe someone like myself.

Up to the Mid May I was feeling exactly what you are now going through. My WW seem to have not concern for me I felt like I was hit by a truck that didn't even look back at the damage it caused. Nothing in life was fun. I felt empty like I was just going throught the motions. I found comfort in being alone as being out in the world with family and friends was difficult and depressing. Everyone else seemed to have so much going on and I had nothing, so I thought.

I DECIDED that in order to break my own cycle of depression and shack the fog I was in I had to change. And you need to make that same decission.
The new enamy in your life has to be You. The person you were and want to be again needs to stand up and fight the person your becomming.

Your complaining that your wife hasn't changed back to what she once was - loving, caring, stable etc. But your also not changing.

I began to change my mind set after reading in a book that "Are emotions are a product of what we think". So I started telling myself that "today was a great day" "I have family and friends that care about me" "Every day is a better day" etc. SO start thinking right to feel right.

I also decided that no matter who dull and boring doing anything felt I was going to keep doing things both old and new. I kept reaching out to friends and family and never turned down an invitation to do something. I started walking every night,reading, cleaning the car etc. Anything and everything to keep busy and moving forward.

I got on the Meds which helped a great deal.

Went to counsling to help me work on myself not my marriage.

Then just when I thought I was making progress my WW affair partner told her he wanted out. But instead of my WW opening up to me she went no-contact on me asking me to give her time and space. That was the First week of June. And I've see her twice since then.

Initialy I felt exactly like you feel right now. Still isolated, alone with so many questions.

Now back then I asked the same questions your asking what do I do, how can giving my wife space (Her reverse Plan B) do me or us any good. But her request for space in hind site was exactly what I needed. You see every time I talked to my WW before that day sent me back into withdrawl and dug up all those difficult emotions.

So what I'm saying which has been repeated in many of the post above mine is give yourself some space and do anything and everything you can think of to break yourself out of your own fog like state.

If your WW walked in the door tonight you wouldn't be strong enough at this point to work on the marriage.JMHO

JL - Sorry not to respond to you before. Thanks for your always blunt, to the point opinions. And yes I have been scewing up so I deserve it and need it.

GG007 - It is nice to know that eventually Plan B helps to lesson the pain. I actually know that because I have been experiencing less pain when I am in Plan B. I am still far from happy, but less pain is a start.

MM - As always, your way of expressing your thoughts is comforting to me and right on the money. I KNOW what is right, as you know when you are up close and personal with a situation it is hard to go against your instincts. Unfortunately your instincts help in certain situations and hurt in others, this being one of them. I am on meds and have been for a little over a month. I have been feeling better but the recent contact from her and listening to her words and then no action on top of my screw up the other night set me back into the pain somewhat. I am feeling better today.

h4f - I really value your thoughts and perspective of what my W may be feeling or thinking since you have been there.

Mimi - Stay on your course! You are very close in your situation, thanks for keeping track of me.

Kily - Where are you? Have you given up on me? I've wanted to give up on myself so I understand. I also know you have your own issues so I hope you are alright.

NW