I am on here tonight for two reasons. First is I feel like crap and need to vent about a thing or two. Secondly I have a question.

The vent is this. W is moving today to her new house, one street over from me if you can believe that. I was traveling along this afternoon to pick up my girls from daycare to take them somewhere and I saw OM and W in a moving truck, OM driving. It just completely pisses me off and hurts me to the core. What did I do to deserve this? Not enough to deserve this much pain. I feel like telling her to F off. I see no end to this no matter what you guys think. I really don't. It just goes on and on. She just stays with him and now he is helping her move. Am I over reacting to this? Why is the fact that he is helping her move bothering me so much?

The next is this. W called 3 times today leaving messages asking me if I wanted her to drop the girls off to me or to daycare because she knew that I was taking them somewhere. I guess my oldest told her about our plans. I never called her back and on the last call she said, "I guess that I will take them to daycare, thanks a lot". Anyway, on the first call she sounded depressed like she was about to cry. On the morning of the first day of school for my oldest (1st grade so not her very first day of school)I will have the girls (based on a rotating schedule that I made that gives us each exactly 50% time with our children)and she wants to get her ready and go to school with her. She said how important it was to her but that she is sure that I won't accomodate her, etc...

I have not called her back and do not feel like accomodating her (plan B & read above). Is that being vindictive or is this just a result of her choices? I mean she wanted this so she has it right? No matter what I do I will be wrong. If I let her have her way it will probably change nothing or make them slighly better. If I don't, it may change nothing or make things worse. The pain never ends and as long as I have to have contact at some level it won't. she just won't leave me alone and I have to listen to these messages in case there is a problem with the kids. I don't even want to talk to her about them anymore and most of the time I don't. In fact I never do. when I have them I am with them and that is it. If something falls on her day that she has the kids I just deal with it. She is the one who seems to have all of the issues all of the time. If she is so unhappy with all of these issues, then why does she remain with OM?????

NW,

She is still addicted. Not like before! She knows what kind of guy he is. She is trying her very best to make it work. But alas, no matter what any of you do...her and the OM WILL fail! And she knows it deep down.

That is what the phonecalls are. Look, she suspects you of having your own gal now. So she works harder at it with the OM. That doesnt work. She sees you with a new house, wicker furniture, the works...and she thinks you are leaving her behind. So she redoubles her effort in her life, with a new house, moving, etc...and tries to include OM in it. But guess what? That wont work either. She will never get "high" on him again. What little she is getting out of him now is barely sustaining her (thus, the phonecalls from her to you, trying to get some kind of fix from you...but you arent there!!). Her love bank with him, if not losing ground, is definitely not gaining any. She is living now off of past deposits, and she knows it. As she sees the balance going down, she begins to call you. That happened a few weeks ago. But you are in Plan B. And now, he has to meet every need.

Think about this, NW. If the OM is meeting all of her needs, then why does she call? Okay, you have a kid together. But why cal 3 and 4 times, complaining about a host of things? Why call and say that she needs you to be friends, to talk to her? Cant she get that with him (you KNOW the answer to these questions!)? If she is so in love and so sure of her deal with him, then WHY would she be upset if you had your own gal? I mean, she should welcome it because that means you will be out of her hair and she can now be with OM without interference.

Well, NW...you know the answers to these questions. All isnt well with them. In the middle of the worst turmoil with the OM, my wife went to Florida with him for 4 days over Christmas. To me from the outside, it was devastating. She had left me and the kids here alone and traveled to Florida to be with him and his family during the holiday. I thought for sure they had finally made it! And believe me, that is exactly what they were TRYING to do. But, what appeared to me to be the death arrow to our relationship, actually turned out to be the saving event. That trip was a "Burning Bush moment," as my wife told me a few weeks after she returned. She saw EVERYTHING clearly. Sure it took a few more weeks after that to get things finished, but that trip sealed their fate. My wife even told a friend of ours after she came back, that on the plane back from Florida, the OM had asked "Are we going to be alright?" Her answer was "I just dont know."

So, NW...YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON OVER THERE! What appears to be activity that is solidifying their relationship may in fact be the flailings of a drowning victim. One last effort at trying to save it.

Just continue to stay dark. The Stalker will continue to LB, continue to not meet the needs she needs to be met. Hang in there. Faith is tough...but it isnt faith if you only have it in the good times!

In His arms.

Nope, no reason to be accomodating. This is reality. If she isn't going to be your wife, then she's going to be the ex-wife...ex's don't get to come and go as they please.

Her insanity and inconsideratness is normal, however...so again I tell you that it's no major predictor of failure. Why does she stay with him if she's so unhappy?? Because she was unhappy with you, and she's unhappy with him...so it becomes a way of living. She thinks that if this would change or that would change...THEN she'd be happy. Eventually OM will get sick of it, and so will she. They'll implode and maybe then she'll get some oxygen to her brain.

Man...I do love hearing from H4F. You sure to know how to put it out there.

It's kind of funny. Seems like FWSs (especially women) are even harder on WSs on this board! Cant say I dont like it though!

NW, she has been there. She has been your wife. Listen to her. She is right...it WILL implode.

And when it does, what kind of man will you have become? Concentrate on that!

In His arms.

<small>[ August 27, 2003, 11:24 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

Now What:

You know how much I understand you-how I am right there with you-have been in your shoes like no one else!!!!

I have thoroughly come to believe that their being together is GOOD!! I know it's imcomprehensible BUT. The more they are together, the more she will see the holes in his socks, how stinky he is, how much of a jerk he is, etc. My WS did the same things, NOW WHAT. He tried to make the OW his wifey. She is trying to make him the hubby by helping her move. HE WILL FAIL, NOW WHAT!!! He will not compare to you. She will try to make him into you. It is all scripted. Have confidence in yourself and what you have offered and what you will and can offer as a HUSBAND. He does not have a clue of how to fill that role for her. I'm wanting you to believe what I didn't believe when I was in your shoes.

I told you, NOW WHAT! You are about two steps behind me. I believe my WS is desperate to get away from his ongoing, tedious daily contact with the OW. It's great when they have to do the day to day things rather than to live in their fantasy world. That's where he will fail, NOW WHAT. The thing is to keep yourself away from it. I did better when I was able to stop my DRIVEBYS during the PLAN B.

NOW WHAT, please try to find something to occupy your time. Nothing will feel great-just some activity to occupy your time until this plays out. Just like everyone is telling you, I believe that it will.

Just like you told me, NOW WHAT. Don't give up now. Of course, I understand your desire to do so. I felt that way a couple of days ago.

What's going on with you? Are you OK?

MM - I am always intrigued by the way you write and express your thoughts about these things. I know that I don't always know what is going on and need to keep my assumptions at bay. See something about this below.

h4f - Thanks for keeping track of me. I always look forward to your perspective.

Mimi - You are right. See how much easier it is to have an outsider's view. We do completely understand each other. I hope that I am just 2 steps behind you because I fel that you are on the road to success.

Friend called me this morning and at first we talked about some problems that she is having. She then told me that she went to W's new house and how OM and his sister (sister is W's friend which is how they met) were there. After they left, W began to express how it bothers her that I am being cold (NC) towards her but that she understands that I am hurt. She then began to cry uncontrollably and said that she is upset about the way things are. Friend said that during all of this time she has never seen W that upset.

I'm not really sure if it is just because I won't let her eat cake and make everything comfortabel for her or if she is beginning to have some true realizations or what. I guess I'm not sure of anything.

NW

Mimi - You posted while I was posting. I'm ok. I was feeling particularly down last night. W just called my CP a bit ago and left another voicemail. I don't even want to listen to it. I have the kids so I know that they are ok.

NW

NW,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not really sure if it is just because I won't let her eat cake and make everything comfortabel for her or if she is beginning to have some true realizations or what. I guess I'm not sure of anything.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First off, it is okay to be unsure. That is what faith is all about! You can be unsure, but still move forward on faith.

Second, is it eating cake or is she having an awakening? BOTH! Your WW's responses and actions are EXACTLY the results of Plan B! It is working!

Keep asking yourself if ANY other explanation works in this situation. She jsut bought a new house and is with OM. She should be HAPPY and ecstatic if she is getting what she wanted. But instead, she gets all of this and cries uncontrollably. Why?

NW, you have to start learning to ask yourself these questions, to be able to peer thru the fog into her world.

The answer to the "why" above is that she is getting everything she thought she "should" want...and it isnt making her feel any better. As a matter of act, it is making her feel worse. The addiction no longer gives her the same high. So, she tries harder, gets more fixes...and never gets back to that high.

She moves into her new house and now she is imagining spending the rest of her life with this man. The mundane things. The Christmases with him, and her daughter not there. And so on, and so on.

THIS IS PLAN B! THIS IS PLAN B! THIS IS PLAN B! Get up beat, NW. This is text book Plan B. It doesnt get any better than this!

Start asking yourself these questions. Stop looking on the surface, and look inside the fog. Her actions and words will many times not make sense. So, watch and look at her motivations. Try to ask yourself why she says one thing and does another. Why she is pursuing this relationship, this life...and then cries uncontrollably over it.

On the surface, it doesnt make any sense. That is EXACTLY why it DOES make sense. Confused? It makes sense because she is living in a world where nothing makes sense. She is trying to FORCE herself to do something that she is increasingly figuring our is not what she WANTS.

She is going through the process NW. The synapses in her brain are starting to reconnect. 1 + 1 still still isnt 2. But, she knows now that the answer she has been getting isnt right. And she is NOW trying to find that answer.

That is why she is trying to contact you. It keeps her from having to find the answer. Because finding it is a tough and painful process. But, she has to do this on her own...by herself...without you...are you getting my point here?

So, stay dark. Concentrate on yourself, just like we told you above. Listen, or dont listen to the voicemails. What I did when I was in Plan B, and my wife was coming out of her fog, was I would listen to the voicemails and try to learn to decifer fogese. To try the true meaning and motivation in her statements. If I looked at it on the surface, nothing made sense. But when I held it up against what I knew about affairs, and up against the WS SCRIPTBOOK, then it ALL made sense.

It is all good news. Like Mimi said, you are probably just a couple of miles behind her on this road. Stay the course. Be opptimistic. Trust God. Have faith.

It is working.

In His arms.

<small>[ August 29, 2003, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

GREAT NEWS!!! Not that you should be hearing it (cause you're supposed to be distancing yourself from the situation!!!) but it is great news none the less. She's seeing a little through the fog!! YEA!!

That's where I was when my head flew out of my butt. I cried for several days. I lost my voice I cried so much. And it was waves of uncontrollable sobbing, not just a few tears. After I was done I felt so much better. It was a cleansing release.

So let her cry, and let her actions, not her words, guide your decisions. At this point it's still VERY early to be getting your hopes up too much.

I decided to listen to the latest voicemail. W was calling about the children's event tomarrow that we both must attend. She sounded very depressed as she spoke about the activities etc...

Sprinkled throught the message were comments like, "I'm sure you won't respond to me." and "I'll be at such in such a number for most of the morning if you have anything to talk about" and ended it with, "After this I'll leave you alone as you wish."

I'm NOT going to do this but why do I have an urge to call her? To try and make her feel better? After all of the pain she has caused me I still want to reach out to her. Such love and devotion I have for her and she is just throwing it away.

NW

You know why you want to call her...because you still care about her...and because you still harbor the hope that she'll burst out with everything you want to hear. Problem is, even if she did SAY the things you want to hear...she's still not ready to truly act on any promises she'd give right now. It would be her running from the pain again.

If you really love her...and I don't doubt you do...then leave her to her pain. It's the ONLY way she'll heal and grow as a person.

Back to focusing on you. What are you going to do for yourself this weekend?? What are you doing to help YOU feel better?

Not that I would know (since my H's head is STILL up his.........!!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Buuuuuuuuut, someone once described the actions (of us, the BS) to me as being counterintuitive. It goes against everything your brain is telling you to do!!

THAT's why you need "coaching" to do it. Everything in your brain is screaming at you to do all the things you can think to do, or that seem "right" to us. In truth, everything we would think to do or try is exactly the WRONG thing to do!!!

This place is the BEST place to find out how to be (and stay) happily M'd.

I've come to realize why so many M's end!! IT'S HARD to make it successful!!!!!! And we really DON'T have proper training or knowledge to do it right! Consequently, I beleive we have a better survival rate from A's when BS comes to this place to "ride it out."

This is the best place to learn HOW A's work, what maintains them, and HOW THEY END.

I'm learning so much by listening to you, NW, and what your "mentors" are telling you (and Mimi), <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> AND learning what works, and what the dynamics of withdrawal are like!

Hang tough, my friend. AND TRUST THOSE WHO ARE GUIDING YOU HERE. They are wise indeed.

God Bless,

It has been a while since I was here and frankly stayed away for several reasons. One, as you will read, I have faltered from Plan B repeatedly and I did not want to be the recipent of cyber 2x4s. Secondly I was becoming burned out from all of it, some of it no doubt due to my failure to maintain Plan B. Also some of what is in there is maybe wrong on my part and some of you may be judgemental (no names mentioned)and I did not feel like hearing it. I have relaized that I need to hear all points of view, not just what I find aggreeable.

I recently spoke with Motarman, Kily and Hope4Future off of the site here and gave them my updates. Motarman suggetested that I post back on MB for the purpose of educating others and to obtain more feedback. Follows is my update. Apologies in advance for any typos, this is long and I posted it rather quickly.

First I have an admission. We are not married but were engaged, together 11 years, owned a home and had 2 children of our own plus hers from a previous relationship. We lived as a family with commitment without the paper telling us we were to live that way. Right or wrong, that is the way it is/was. In many states we would have a common law marriage but where we live there is no such thing. This was the best relationship site that I have found and the title caused me to initially believe that I would not be welcome if I were not married. I relaize now that was an incorrect assumption.

Anyway I think that the last time I wrote was when she came knocking on my door which was mid August. I remained in Plan B and she kept calling periodically as the beginning of school approached. She started talking about the kid's first day of school and how she wanted to be part of that. I had them the night prior which would mean I would have them the 1st day of school. I was standing strong and told her no, this is the result of her choices and I did not want her around me. Of course she kept it up, became angry, accusing me of not really caring, being mean etc... and I cracked. I ended up falling off the wagon and went to her house the Sunday before Labor Day to talk. I was there from 4:30 pm until 2:00 am. OM called and she blew him off. We drank 5 bottles of wine and talked very deeply. We both cried, we slow and fast danced in her kitchen to music and we argued about various issues. Basically every emotion was experienced by both and we went back and forth about the same stuff as before and ended with no resolution. We had some more emotional conversations and she said that she is always wondering if she is making the right choice but she still can't come back "right now" and that her relationship with OM is an escape from everyday life and that she needs that. I ended up letting her be part of the school thing and we parted. This was Wednesday Sept 5 or 6.

The following Saturday I went on a dinner date with a woman that I had met many months prior. Frankly I have been lonely and my ExGF keeps pushing me away, telling me to live my life while she lives hers and whatever happens happens. GF says that if we are meant to be we will be and that she wants us to get back together "naturally" (if it's meant) and not make it an intentional act. We (other woman) decided to go to this festival event the next day with her son and my girls. My GF was there with OM and she saw me with this woman. She is very beautiful and GF had never seen me with another woman or anyone else with her kids. Even though I have suffered this for months she received her first stab in the heart and freaked out. Not in public but a day or 2 later she left me a 7 page letter in my mailbox.

The letter basically said that I don't really love her if I would be with anyone else, now we both have to see each other with other people and it hurts her and made reference to this woman's good looks. She told me not to tell her how I feel about her anymore and then basically plan B'ed me and said that SHE did not want to talk to me except for the kids. I never responded to the letter .

I talked to her friend a couple days later and told the friend that this woman was very easy to talk to and that I felt like I have known her for a long time which is the truth. This is the way GF and I started and when the friend told her this she was very upset. She started telling friend that she really has to take some time and figure out what she is doing and that she realizes that this woman may be someone that causes her to lose me. She said that she realizes that she has feelings much stronger for me then she thought.

A day or 2 later she calls with a question about the kids. I address the matter and attempt to get off the phone but she wants to talk. She wants to know about this other woman, how I feel about her, wants to know her name etc... She is emotional and cries a little and is on the verge of crying for a good chunk of the conversation. Sounded very nevous. We talked for a couple of hours and I honestly do not remember how the call ended.

She calls the next day about the kids again and we end up talking for 2 hours. She is emotional again and wants to know if she comes to me in 2 weeks or 2 months wanting to reconcile will I. At this point I have had enough of all of this and this woman was causing me to feel this way even more. I told her that I did't know and she told me that I must not really love her because if I did I would be able to answer yes. She said that she now knows that I have suffered terribly all of these months. I told her that I still care for her and have the same passion and desire to spend my life with her as I always did but I am getting to the end of my rope. I am no longer seeing this friend due to some previous relationship issues on her part that she has to figure out and GF knows this.

A few days later was our daughter's baptism and her daughter's confirmation. I go there and she invites me over to her house after because she wants to go to lunch with the girls and her friend (god mother) We end up going on the wine trail in our area, having a nice lunch and at one winery it is the owner's 50th surprise birthday party. We were dancing with each other, our girls etc...Having a really good time. Dancing and things like that are something OM would never do and she likes to let loose so I let loose too.

We go back to her house and the girls fall asleep. We are talking and she tells me that she still loves me, does not love OM. She tells me that she has asked God for forgiveness for what she has done to me and that if she knew how much I loved her she would have never left. She thought that I did't care anymore. I have dated a couple of times in these 9-10 months and admittedly have had an intimate relationship with 2 people. She knows about this, I have been honest with her. It is always after she tells me in no uncertain terms it's over, move on etc...and I waited several months before this. Of course when she finds out that I date she gets upset and worried.

Somehow she gets around to asking me if I slept with anyone in "our bed", (the one that she left when she moved out which I still have) I told her that I had and she completely loses it. She is screaming, crying "My bed?!!!!!" "That was our bed, we bought that together, we made our children in that bed!!!" "We used to lay with our children on Sunday mornings in that bed!!" She was completely hysterical and threw a glass vase full of flowers and water against her kitchen wall and was crying uncontrollably. She was looking up asking God to help her, that the pain iunbearablele, that she cannot believe what she has done but that she deserves it. She was pounding on the kitchen counter, hit me, said that she can't get past this etc...This went on for probably 15 minutes. Eventually when the dust settled she kept asking me why. I told her that she left me, told me it was over and never to be again and what am I suppose to do. She told me that she was not upset that I slept with anyone else but that it was in "our" bed. I don't believe that she doesn't care and I finally got irritated and told her that it is not her bed anymore. This really pisses her off and I really don't know what she is thing? She eventually says that she sorry, not to worry and that she still loves me. She says this several times.

We end up sleeping together that night on her couch, with her head on my shoulder and my arm around her. Nothing sexual. The next morning we are talking some more and OM calls. He also called a few times on Saturday including when I was there and she blew him off. I guess she blew him off on Friday too. Her daughter answered the phone and gave it to her. She tells him that she can't talk to him and tells him that he did't do anything, (in response to his question if he had) that she just has a lot going on and ends the call.


It ends the same way as always, she wants to be friends, have communication and see if that leads to working things out but will not stop seeing OM. she said that she feels closer to me then ever and wants to keep going that way but still will not end it with OM. She said that she can't give me what I need right now. She said that if I need to keep seeing the other woman, to do so, and she realizes that she may lose me forever and if she does, she will have to deal with it but that she can't come back right now. I leave and tell her goodbye without any real direction. she later tells friend that being together with me and the girls and seeing us together during the baptisim and wine trail made her think that we "should be together."

I called a couple days later and tell her that I appreciate her opening up and sharing her emotions but that she cannot gain clarity while still seeing OM and being influenced by him. She said that she can figure things out and that she is taking a step back and viewing OM more closely. I told her that a true step back would be no contact but shewouldn't. We talked for about 5 hours. I told her I wanted no contact again. She said that she told OM about the baptism, our day together that he can never fill my shoes in the family capacity. She reminded him that her oldest daughter does not like him and will never accept him and that he would probably be better off forgetting what he wants (to marry her, be family) because she is very unlikely to give him that. Of course he says that he will wait for her to reach that point.

We don't talk for a few more days and she calls about the kids again. We end up talking for 8 hours. She tells me she is trying to figure things out, that the OM is very serious about her but that she is not that way with him. That she cares deeply for him but...She said that I don't really know what is going on and the nature of their relationship as if I am making too much out of it. She said that it is comfortable and that she "calls the shots" She said that if she feels like seeing him she does and if shedozenn't she doesn't. I told her that she must not respect him that much to treat him that way and she doesn't answer. She told me that he hasn't slept with him in quite awhile and that she may never again. He apparently never complains about her treatment of him and I asked her if she felt that wasrealisticc. Did she really think that he was that understanding. I told her that he probably gets pissed etc... but that he holds it in because he is an unattractive 50 year old loser with nothing else going for him and she is a pretty 37 year old woman and he doesn't want to lose her. After a while I get angry thinking about OM and start telling her that I'm sick of this ****, that the OM is a dirt bag who interfered in our relationship and a vulnerable time and took advantage of it. That he doesn't care about the pain that I have, the children have or even the pain that shesufferss. I really ripped him apart and told her that some day I was going to kick his [censored]. I know, probably a big LB but I have been holding in my anger for months and months and probably only was angry towards her two other times in 9 months of torture.

The friend tells me how the next day GF related that I told her that I was fed up and the friend interpreted GF as being somewhat respectful that I had stuck up for myself and was not being a wimp. She told me how GF was saying many positive things about me, negative things about OM and that she knows the OM is being "fake" with her. GF said that her feelings for me are stronger then she realized and she knows that we will be together again and that she has to end it with OM the "right way", whatever that is. The friend tells me to play it cool.

The next night GF comes over to drop off one of our girls. she comes in with a book that she had just bought to read (East of Eden) that she wanted to show to me paint chips from the colors she chose to paint the inside of her house. She obviously plans on hanging out. I had already been drinking a few rum and cokes and was buzzing. Wesharedd 2 bottles of wine and we talked and hung out for several hours. Near the end the alcohol was getting the best of me and I started going off about the OM, calling him a scumbag predator, that he took advantage of our problems for his own benefit and she actually agreed. She said to me "I'm here aren't I." "I'm not with him." "I want you to show me" (by actions that I have changed). This went on for a bit and then I became theangriestt I had ever been in my life and did a really stupid thing and kicked and punched holes in one of the walls of my house and said that I felt like killing OM. I had never doneanythingg like that before and I felt really bad that I had lost control like that. She tells me that she is going to give me what I want and end it with OM. she said that she has been responsible for enough pain and does not want me to hurt OM and feels that I may.

The next day we talk and she told me that she ended it with OM. I know that forcing her to do it is wrong and I told her that I was sorry and to do what ever she feels she wants to. She said that she is. I asked her if she would haveendedd it with him that day if it wasn't for what happened the previous night and she replied, "Probably not." Notdefinitelyy not but "probably not." She said that I have been telling her that actions speak louder then words and said "Here's my action". She said now I'll see if he stalks me like you say that he will. (Thank goodness he started within 2 days of her saying this of course she won't let me know - see below) She said that she is going to be alone for a few months and then I will see that she did't leave me for OM. I know that we had problems however I think that OM was a big catalyst. She further said that she is not coming back to me, because of the way I acted that night, that I haven't changed, and that it is hard to tell me that but that I will never move on until I understand that. She then asked me why should she trust me to open up to me and be with me again. She reminded me that she had asked me for time to figure things out and that I would not give it to her. I told her that I tried (Plan B) and that she would never leave me alone. She said that she now understands. I was emotional and I said that because I love her, understand my past mistakes, what she needs now and that I have difficulty containing my emotions when I know that she is still with him. I told her the past will be the past if we ever get to that point but while she is seeing him I am in intense pain making it difficult to control my emotions. (I know, purpose of plan B) she later calls and leaves a message apologizing for being so cold to me, that she cares, wants me to be ok, be happy etc... She said that she feels really bad about this whole thing and bad that she has hurt me. I never responded.

Her friend tells me that since she cut it off with OM he is being a real *******, leaving nasty phone messages, calling her friends sluts, telling her he knows where she is at certain times and that he knows what this is "really about". He has done this 2 or 3 times in a period of a week. I have heard from others that he is this way including his 2nd wife who dumped him after she found out he was cheating for the 2nd time. He called to apologize for the first message and then has done it again since. Apparently he has been calling her wanting to talk and she told him that she would call him later and never did. She went out with her best friend (my source) and he apparently stalked them and called leaving another nasty message saying "I see you're out with your slut friend". and "You told me you had things to do but I see what that means"

He then did it again and then wrote a letter telling her that he loves her, has never felt this way about anyone has lost his soul mate, best friend (This guy has been married twice before, how many soul mates does one have?) asks why couldn't me, her oldest daughter and her best friend given them a chance. I am suppose to give their relationship a chance???! Me??? He told her that he is depressed, lonely and that he had to buy a new answering machine because he broke his other one throwing it across the room. He then went on to say that he won't keep track of her or chase her like I have and that he never chased his 2nd wife (who was supposedly the love of his life and it took him 4 years to get over her) and he won't chase her. I guess that he has called more and she tells him that she doesn't't want to talk to him. She told friend that she can't go back to him, at least right now and maybe never. she said that he is being a son of a ***** and that he is not going to get away with acting that way. She further said that she has a lot going on in her life and that he doesn't get it. Of course she has told me in the past that he understands and accepts her. I guess that is only if things are going the way he wants. I hope that he keeps his **** up. She told her friend that now the real stuff starts and this is a test for OM. I hope that he fails.

So the bottom line is I have pulled back since this and OM is currently out of the pictureand LBing all over the place. My actions, hopefully may end up being a blessing in disguise. It is letting her see the real side of OM. She called the other night asking me to call her when I got a chance but I haven't. I am trying to decide what to do now. Go back to Plan A while he is being a jerk? Hoverer she says that we won't be together either but I have heard that before. Halloween is coming up and I'm sure she will want to be involved but that is night with the kids.

Now What,

After reading this whole thing I have two thoughts.

1. Your W shows no respect for OM and she shows no respect for you.

2. You should date the new woman in your life, and leave your W to figure out her life.

My first comment comes from the thought, that she doesn't really respect men and certainly not the men in her life. Please review again why your relationship was NOT in good shape before the A. I am guessing this lack of respect was PART of the issues at hand.

The second point is self-evident. You owe your exGF nothing and she clearly feels she owes you nothing. She may be jealous but that seems to be all she is. If this new woman is someone you enjoy, date her. But definitely leave your exGF alone. She says she is sorry, but it appears the only thing she is really sorry for is that she is not happy. Your happiness or that of your D's is not a major concern of her's.

So I would recommend several things. Consider seriously the two points I made, and then reread what you have written, and tell me where you see she is really getting it. I don't see it. I see jealousy on her part, but jealousy is NOT love as you well know.

Finally, I would recommend that you follow your exGF's advice: move on with your life. Whether she catches up to your life or not, is really up to her. In short, move to as little contact as possible. She has had plenty of time, and she needs much more. Give it to her, and follow her instructions: move on.

It seems to me that if you do that you have the highest probability to end up in a good relationship (with her or without her).

God Bless,

JL

PS: Go back to the first post on this thread or even the first three pages and tell me what has changed. In my view nothing has changed. The only time anything sort of changes is when you pull back, and yet you say you cannot plan B. Either you like the pain and drama of this or you are not really serious about addressing this relationship. Please Now What, stop and really look at things again, and this time with hindsight.

<small>[ October 20, 2003, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

JL - You are right about the respect thing. I pointed that out to her that she has no respect for OM however I failed to step out of the picture and realize there is little to none for me either, based on her actions. This is right out of Dobson's book Love Must Be Tough which I have read and re-read.
You are also right about how nothing has really changed since this all started. I do not have to go back and read any of the posts because it is all firmly entrenched in my mind. We have more openly communicated (which she complained I would not /could not do in the past)and moved closer in that sense but is she anywhere closer to resuming our relationship on that level. Obviously not.
I'm still debating about whether to throw in a little Plan A while the OM is out of the picture and LBing all over the place. Nothing overboard, just be pleasant and friendly when we do speak vs. cold and short which is what I have been.
Halloween is coming up and she called last night about it (I have the kids)and left a message which I have yet to return. MY thoughts are do one of 2 things. All of us go as a family and then end it on a good note and walk away or be nice and allow her to take the kids and tell her that I wont be accompanying her and that I will take the kids myself when she reurns with them.

I went back into plan B 3 weeks ago. I ran into GF once at a store and had short minimal contact and walked away from her. The only reason I talked at all was our children were with me and saw her. That was the last time I had any type of conversation with her.
She has been calling every other day or so, regarding the kids. I reply either by a note that I mail or drop off in her mailbox or I leave messages on her answering machine when she is at work. Sometimes she asks questions that I have already answered and every once in a while throws in a "I guess call me if you want." or "Call me when you get a chance." I have not.
Tonight she had to drop the kids off to me and she seemed a little nervous. I, as Mortarman had suggested, thought about how to handle my contact. I greeted the girls very warmly and I asked her if she was all set. She said that we hadn't talked about the girls swim lessons that I had signed them up for. I left a message telling her that I had (we previously said that it should be done since my new house has a pool) and left the pamphlet with a note explaining the times and what was needed the other day. I restated the information and she said "I guess I'll have to figure it out on my own."
She said something about needing to think if she has anything else to talk about since she is here (at my door) so that she "doesn't have to bother me anymore" and I waited. she asked about Halloween and I told her that she could have them and drop them off to me. A few seconds past and my oldest daughter began to cry beacuse GF was leaving. She consoled her and then hesitated with me again. I told her "This is what you wanted and I'd like you to leave."
She then mentioned our last big dispute where I really lost my temper and said "After that how could I do anything else." I then told her that she has been using one excuse or another for months and if it wasn't that one it would have been something else. I then told her that I don't care anymore (maybe an LB?) and she said, "I know you don't." I didn't say anything else and she walked away. She always accused me of not caring and saying that is one of the reasons she left. I think from anyone who has followed my thread they can answer whether I have proven that I do care. Maybe I should have said, "You know how I feel, I'd like you to leave."
I know that I had to stand up for myself, do you think that I was too harsh or cold? I did not yell or raise my voice. I spoke camly and in a controlled manner with indifference.

Now What

NW,

I think your boundaries are squarely in place. But unfortunately, if she is trying to figure out how to surrender, you may have to stick your neck out a little.

An example? Well, instead of telling her to leave as she holds the screaming child...you say NOTHING. A HUGE pregnant pause. Very hard on her. She is the one that has to say goodbye. She is the one that has to walk away from the crying child. She is the one that has to end the conversation. In Plan B, she has to do EVERYTHING!

Dont suggest, educate, tell, inform...just listen. If she asks a question, dont answer it with what she has done. An example is in my situation. My wife would start bringing up all the Fog talk. I would defend myself or try to correct her and help her face reality. I was wrong to do that! Instead, Steve Harley has now helped me to say in response to Fog Babble: "Honey, you know better than that." And then leave it alone. If she says "No I dont," I say nothing. Leave it as a matter of fact. Facts dont have to be defended.

So, dont give her ultimatums, dont tell her to leave. If you want her to leave, just ask "Is there something else?" And then dont talk. The silence will make her do something.

Now what does that "pregnant pause" do for her? Well, she now sits in the doorway of the house she doesnt live in. The kids are upset because she is leaving. She wants to talk more with you, to pull you into a conversation. If she cant do that, then she wants you to be mean and get into an argument, in order to prove to herself why she left you. But you are all smiles. You dont engage in the verbal wars. You just ask "Is there anythign else?" And then...the ball is in her court...as it is everyday in Plan B.

Then, if she walks away KNOWING what it takes to come back, if she walks away with you asking "Is there anything else" and she wonders whether she should have said more...if she walks away with the crying kids and has no reason to hate you...what do you think this will do to her?

NW, I believe you are very close to a breakthrough. If you look at my thread from January, you'll see that when my wife first starting showing up during Plan B, I too was tired and just wanted her to leave. But, I put my game face on, had my courses of action ready, and stuck to my plan. And she realized I was no longer going to play. That she had to make decisions, and even making no decision was making a decision. That life was starting to pass her by.

Get with it man. You are doing a pretty good Plan B with kids. But, now that she might be in transition, you must not be the ogre. Stop the "I would like you to leave." Stop the rehashing of "these were your decisions." Just listen and if you talk, reiterate the PBL.

I think you are close, my man. But it will be how you handle it now that will mean all the difference. Do nothing for now. But when she comes around...listen...answer her questions directly with no disrespectful judgments...and then ask if there is anything else. And then let her make her decision to leave on a daily basis.

I am willing to bet that if you do this, that she is very close to finally saying what my wife did..."I'm not leaving."

In His arms.

I just want to emphasize to you the importance to you of handling this transition phase deliberately and delicately.

Listen to Mortarman.

Hang in there, kiddo.

Sorry about that NW, I thought I had responded to this post. That's why when I searched for your 'latest' I couldn't find it. I'd already read this, and THOUGHT I responded, so I was looking for something even newer!!!

As far as that particular interraction...hey, you did the best you could. Nothing about this situation is easy and with the level of pain and emotion you're not expected to handle everything with ease and perfection all the time!! You did the best you could...so no matter what ELSE you might have done, what's done is done. Again, however, if you really want to protect yourself with a full Plan B, you might want to find an intermediary to transfer the kids. Can you find ANYONE??

Gotta run the kid to daycare...more in a few...

Ok...back!

The other thing that is sticking out to me, is how much of your Plan B is spent focusing on her and your interaction with her, etc... Plan is to protect you from the roller coaster!! To protect you from the pain. A special side to it is that the WS struggles with not having all their needs met anymore. It puts a strain on the fantasy of the A, and hopefully they begin to miss the life, and partner, that they had. But for your end of things, it's for YOU!

What are you doing for yourself? What are you doing to bring some happiness and entertainment in your life? FOR YOU?!

<small>[ October 31, 2003, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: hope4future ]</small>