You know what, for me personally, it is NOT the continued contact with RM that bothers me so much ... what bothers me is her clear and consistent expression of a hostile anti-marriage philosophy, which she claims to have had her entire adult life!

The expressed philosophy is essentially hopeless and cynical and anti-men.

I don't like it one bit.

If this is her true philosophy .... and she does not want to change her mind set about what marriage means to her ... then she is essentially saying to 2Long, "Marriage to anyone is a woman's trap and I will never be happy as a trapped woman."

Makes me sick to read such ugliness.

Put your money where your mouth is Mrs. 2Long. Don't say such crap if you don't mean it. If you do mean it, then make a change to set yourself free.

Mean what you say and live what you believe.

Pep

Dear SS:

I see what you are saying and not meaning to speak behind 2Long's back LOL, it appears to me being an observer from 10,000 feet that the changes have been in 2LOng and his approach to the M. I fear the changes in his W are just her reactions to 2LOng's changes which make her life much more comfortable.

I am not sure she has shown any changes in her viewpoint of the M. It just seems she has an agenda and a plan and is following it. I pray I am wrong and it sure wouldn't be the first time I was.

However, 2Long is in the trenches and has a much closer view of the field. I think his W would be losing alot if she lost him.

All my best

Jack

Pepper,
That part bothers me too. I know that would be consistant with things always said to justify an A, so I wonder if she means it. It could be something she came up with for an excuse, but if she continues to maintain that stance, he doesn't have much choice.

Someone asked if she is just waiting for son to leave before she goes. That is a vaild question.

Does she want to stay?

I suspect if the truth were know, there are some days that you and I wonder if we want to stay. I would rather be where 2long is, than where his W is.

I made a suggestion to him by mail to use her point of view as the discussion point instead of his feelings or anything else. I think it could help call her bluff, but if she's not bluffing, it's over. If it's over anyway, timing doesn't matter much for 2long, though it may for son.

I would also bet that the house problems, and work problems are all part of the bitterness for her. It's not a "happy ever after" fairy tale marriage, and she knows it. Seems it's all the fault of the marriage. That part may go if the house problems ever are over with. I just wonder if 2long can go that long. I do know he shouldn't have to.

The thing is, living life's problems by ones self sucks. That's one of the reasons I married, so I could have someone to share with. She leans on him pretty heavily in the middle of the problems, but doesn't seem to give him credit for the help. I don't understand that part either.

Plan B would bring reality to her world. Harsh reality.

2long takes suggestions well when he agrees with them, but he has resisted plan B or any thing related to it. I know he is a smart man, and I wonder if he knows something, or feels something that we can't see. I wonder if that is why he continues as he is.

It could just be that he is afraid to ride the bull and he just needs to get over it. I know I'll never get on one of them, scares me to death.

SS

Dear 2Long And Pepper:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If this is her true philosophy .... and she does not want to change her mind set about what marriage means to her ... then she is essentially saying to 2Long, "Marriage to anyone is a woman's trap and I will never be happy as a trapped woman."

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The point of my question to 2Long exactly.

Thanks Pepper.

Jack

Well, I really screwed up my account somethin' fierce. Went to change my profile and the old, long-defunct "2long@iloveulove.com" email address that was in the profile, and now I can't reconnect as 2long!

So, for a while, maybe for a long while, I'm Qfwfq again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> (double oops. The new password got through to my new email address! So, I'll be 2long again shortly).

I went away for a while to draft an email to my W based on suggestions SS and Pepper gave me this morning. I've got that draft written, and I'll post it here as a vent, but I've decided not to send it. I'll talk about why when I reply to your other posts.

-Qfwfq (aka 2long)

Mrs 2long:

When you left for the airport on Sunday, my computer was still connected to your hotmail account. I read what you wrote to RM after I left [vacation home] for home two weeks ago, up until just before you came out to [east coast] with the kids last week. I’m so sorry that you feel so bad about being married to me all these years. I thought we had a great time in [vacation home], only to find that you quickly returned to your secretive relationship with RM via email and that long phone call the following night. That must have been where the whole discussion we had afterwards about you and RM wondering if I was this “mole” RM refers to came from. As I told you then, I have no interest in “informing” anybody about your affair. To do so would be vengeful, and I don’t believe in vengeance. That’s your business and your problem. I truly do respect your right to privacy. I even respect RM’s right to privacy. But privacy and secrecy are very different things. I do not support this secret relationship between you two. It’s too harmful to our relationship.

I have been thinking about what you have said about never wanting to be married. It's not fair for you to live all your life wanting to be free and being stuck with something you never wanted. I am prepared to set you free. I looked upon our marriage as a partnership that we could both gain from. I looked upon you as my best friend, my lover, and the mother of our two wonderful kids. But if you don't feel those same things, I can’t understand why you would want to stay with me. My emotional makeup won't let me continue to share you, so I am ready to call it quits if you are. I want you to be happy, and if freedom from me is what that takes, I can let you go. I just can't bring myself to share you with RM.

If, on the other hand, you believe I can become that best friend to you once again, if you believe we can make this a partnership where we both can be happy and grow old together watching our kids and their kids grow, then I would be overjoyed to continue being married to you. If you feel trapped, then lets take away the pain.

I don’t understand how marriage is anything like prostitution, or how either one of us gains anything financially by participating in it if that’s what it is. I am extremely saddened that you, the one person that I’ve loved the most in my entire life, the one person that I admire the most as I’ve watched you develop as a professional and mother at the same time, and the one person that I have adored most in all my life, would feel this way about being married to me.

But I realize that, though I don’t understand it, this is how you feel, and that, by asking you to continue in a relationship where you feel like a prostitute, I’m asking you to continue in a relationship where you don’t feel adored and admired like you deserve. I truly love you too much to hurt you in this way any longer. I respect your position on marriage, even though I can’t agree with it.

I never meant to hurt you or insult your integrity or stifle you as an individual by marrying you. I had no idea I was asking you to compromise your integrity as a woman by asking you to marry me 28 years ago. I certainly never intended to turn you into a prostitute, and I have no intention of remaining your “John” in such an arrangement, because it would be too harmful to both of us.

I certainly notice that you have chosen to stay with me even when I found out about your affair, and I have taken that as a good sign for the past 18 months. Likewise, I chose to stay with you in spite of the emotional affair continuing after I found out. I have hoped that we could “regroup” as a team, and rebuild our marriage into something much better than it has ever been, but those emails have me wondering if that is possible or even something that you would want. I don't want to make assumptions about how you are feeling and what you want out of life from now on, though.

I probably worry way too much, but my feelings have been battered rather badly the last couple of years, just as my behavior over the past 12 years hasn’t helped you to avoid having an affair with someone else’s husband. I just wish to know what you want, so I can do whatever it takes to give that to you. Please think on it, and let me know so I can finally find peace.

-With all my love, always
2long.

Very clear ... you did well.

Now, what's up?

Pep

wmiw:

"Have you seen anything different in your W that leads you to believe she is not waiting until youngest son is out of the nest before leaving (I believe this was a plan of hers or a fear of yours)? I do not mean to upset you. The thought popped into my head."

It pops in2 my head from time 2 time, 2. Not so much lately, though. Even after reading those emails. I can't adequately describe why, either. Partly, I think I'm just numb. Partly, I figure that whatever she needs 2 do 2 be happy, she'll do regardless. It does me no good 2 insist she make me promises that she can't keep.

If I can respect myself in the morning, it will be not just because I was able, perhaps finally, 2 stand up for what I believe regarding our M, but because I gave my W all the time that she believed she needed, 2 do whatever she felt she needed 2 do, 2 figure out what it is she wants out of life. If she wants 2 stay, I will be delighted, but we'll be in for some serious hard work ahead. If she wants 2 leave me, even if it's 2 years down the road, then I want 2 be able 2 respect whatever decisions I make then as a result of her choices up 2 that point in time.

I will always love her whatever she decides 2 do. At the moment, she's not DOING anything that she doesn't BELIEVE isn't working out whether she wants 2 be M'd or not. All the while, she is a good mom, even a fun W 2 be around. There's no way I could convey that here, so I won't even try. And unfortunately it's the "digitally intangible" things that make ME stay M'd 2 her.

Am I being taken advantage of? Maybe, but if so, it isn't intentional, believe it or not. Can I take it? So far, certainly. Not always well, though. How long can I take it? Well, I have no idea. I don't even know what "it" is, frankly. I don't think she does, either.

♥2long

SS:

"After watching this story for more than a year, I wonder if 2long sees signs of her struggling to get off the fence and he hates to walk away from the fence because he wants to be there when she falls off."

Yes, I do see signs. And yes, I do want 2 be there for her. Is it a "healthy" want 2 be there? I don't know, but it needs 2 be.

"I don't know all those signs but I know at one time she wouldn't even talk about some things, and I believe now she is beginning to do so. I think that's why 2long is trying to be careful. Because when you think you see change, you don't want to screw it up."

This is absolutely right. I do see changes. I have posted about them, I think, though at the time I've noted them I'm sure I didn't really fully recognize them. The most notable changes are in her general atti2de. She's a lot more cheerful these days than for the past several years. I can't explain why here, but I don't believe it's just because she's gotten "comfortable" on the fence. If anything, I think she's very uncomfortable. That night she called me from our vacation home, when she'd obviously been on the phone 2 RM for quite a long time just prior 2 our phone call, she didn't have a happy "tone" about her. Other times when I've known she's talked 2 RM, she's not seemed "fence-comfortable" either. Both times she's been cheered up during and after OUR conversation. I think that's why I told Conan that I think the R with RM is the one that's starting 2 crack. Not ours. I still think so.

"The question everyone seems to be asking is "with continued contact, is there any real improvement going on." I don't think 2long has really addressed this lately. From things he has said, I believe he does see some improvement, but when he gets blatant evidence of contact, it is hard for him to think about anything else. "

This is an as2te observation, SS. It sounds very non-MB (and non- a lot of other "methods"), but I do believe that it is possible 2 have improvement with contact continuing. Poll the 4um: There ARE people here who have recovered without a NC agreement. I don't know if I'll be able 2 join the ranks, but I intend 2 find out by setting aside NC as the primary, must-have-in-place condition before any progress is acknowledged.

"The two big questions I have asked 2long are:
Can you live with continued contact? and the answer has always been - NO. "

Still is. But NC when? is the next question. And how? I'd prefer her 2 make that decision without any pressure from me, other than 2 tell her, yet again, that I'd be delighted if she'd send a NC letter or something.

"and
How long can you go? and that answer has always been - I don't know."

Yep. Still is, Still!

"Here's another one:
Is there anything 2long can do to get his W off the fence ON HIS SIDE OF THE FENCE?
I don't think he really wants her off right now if she falls down on the other side of the fence."

Or if she's pushed on2 EITHER side (unless it's by RM).

"2long, has your plan A been long enough, and good enough by now?"

I don't think I've done plan A much of the time.

"I think 2long is still wondering if he is ready to ride the bull."

I was once asked "would you rather be hung or guillotined?" and I replied "I would rather eat ice cream!!!" That was 31 years ago. I'd still rather eat ice cream. If my W wants some, I'll keep an extra bowl and enough ice cream on hand 2 share.

"Really, I don't know, I just think a lot about 2long and why he hasn't done more ( like plan B) when I know it must hurt so badly sometimes.
2long, do you understand your reasons ?"

F***, no, SS!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> That's why I post so much!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

♥2long

Pepper:

"You know what, for me personally, it is NOT the continued contact with RM that bothers me so much ... what bothers me is her clear and consistent expression of a hostile anti-marriage philosophy, which she claims to have had her entire adult life!"

Which is untrue, of course. We can see this, but she needs help 2 see it. But she also has 2 ask for the help. She has 2 want it. Currently, maybe she's struggling 2 get answers from both me and RM. RM's a basket case. So am I a good chunk of the past 18 months, but for somewhat different reasons. How I pull myself out of this will make all the difference 2 me AND her. I could give a Rat's a$$ what RM does 2 put himself back 2gether.

"The expressed philosophy is essentially hopeless and cynical and anti-men.
I don't like it one bit."

Neither do I. What 2 do, though? I'm going 2 try smothering her with love. The unconditional stuff, that is. The stuff that won't go away if she chooses 2 fly 2 Jupiter with Rat Meat (they can't go 2 Mars. Mars is MINE! ;o)).

"If this is her true philosophy .... and she does not want to change her mind set about what marriage means to her ... then she is essentially saying to 2Long, "Marriage to anyone is a woman's trap and I will never be happy as a trapped woman."

I don't think it's her true philosophy, even if she consciously believes that it is. Think about it. It makes no sense. If she hates men and feels trapped by them, why for rice cake get involved with 2 of them??!! But I've asked that 2uestion before!

"Makes me sick to read such ugliness.
Put your money where your mouth is Mrs. 2Long. Don't say such crap if you don't mean it. If you do mean it, then make a change to set yourself free.
Mean what you say and live what you believe."

Amen! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-2long

SS:

"That part bothers me too. I know that would be consistant with things always said to justify an A, so I wonder if she means it."

I think she has 2 mean it. But that's fog, so it's nothing new and it's nothing that any BS doesn't have 2 deal with somehow. The day that the fog breaks, if that ever happens, she'll realize how absurd that belief is. Right now, it protects her.

"It could be something she came up with for an excuse, but if she continues to maintain that stance, he doesn't have much choice."

Back 2 the evidence of progress 2uestion. I think it's there, but I just haven't quite figured out how 2 water it yet so it'll grow bigger. Maybe, though, I got 2 stop worrying about it and just live and watch it, because it is happening:

When I was walking back from lunch, she called me. She was cheerful, in spite of the news she had. Her boss has taken responsibility for her project away from her and made her a temp employee. She wanted 2 know what I think. I told her that I support HER, regardless of how she feels about it, whether she feels like a victim or whether she feels "relieved" (because work-related contact is now out of her hands). Am I excited? No. Why not? Well, I don't want 2 get my hopes up. Why do I keep asking myself 2uestions? Because I keep answering me! ;oD

"Someone asked if she is just waiting for son to leave before she goes. That is a vaild question.
Does she want to stay?
I suspect if the truth were know, there are some days that you and I wonder if we want to stay. I would rather be where 2long is, than where his W is."

Interesting. So would I, but the way you said it just hit me differently than before. ...I'm looking for insight in2 her thinking, not because I want 2 enjoy the rapture of the fog or nothin' like that. But because I want 2 get some insight in2 her thinking...

"I made a suggestion to him by mail to use her point of view as the discussion point instead of his feelings or anything else. I think it could help call her bluff, but if she's not bluffing, it's over. If it's over anyway, timing doesn't matter much for 2long, though it may for son."

And this gets back 2 why I don't think I'll send that draft 2 her. Do I want 2 call her bluff, even if I believe strongly that it IS a bluff? I don't think so. I'd prefer 2 have the strength 2 let her make her own bed and lie in it and learn from it. That literally might involve her running off 2 stay with RM for a while. Not very likely, but not impossible. And maybe I'm realizing that I'd be okay with that. It's a lot clearer-cut than fence-sitting is. And it's the kind of thing that is so malleable 2 MB methods, 2. But I don't think she'd do that.

"I would also bet that the house problems, and work problems are all part of the bitterness for her. It's not a "happy ever after" fairy tale marriage, and she knows it. Seems it's all the fault of the marriage. That part may go if the house problems ever are over with. I just wonder if 2long can go that long. I do know he shouldn't have to."

The house problems are about 2 go on for another few years, 2.

"The thing is, living life's problems by ones self sucks. That's one of the reasons I married, so I could have someone to share with. She leans on him pretty heavily in the middle of the problems, but doesn't seem to give him credit for the help. I don't understand that part either. "

I've thought 2 suggest 2 her that she ask RM 2 come out 2 her vacation home and finish that damned bathroom. Bet he hasn't a clue how 2 use a screwdriver, and I have 2ls that would make Tim Allen jealous - and I KNOW how 2 USE them! ;o)

"Plan B would bring reality to her world. Harsh reality.
2long takes suggestions well when he agrees with them, but he has resisted plan B or any thing related to it."

yeah, I do, don't I?

"I know he is a smart man,"

At least one of us does!!! ;o)

"and I wonder if he knows something, or feels something that we can't see. I wonder if that is why he continues as he is."

yes, I FEEL things that you, or even *I* can't quite see. I don't know all that much!

"It could just be that he is afraid to ride the bull and he just needs to get over it. I know I'll never get on one of them, scares me to death. "

Which is why I'd prefer ice cream! DEATH BY ICE CREAM!!!! (with cherries on top, of course).

-ol' 2long

Shoot,
I drove to Mexicali last Tuesday for a bike. I could drive to LA tonight for ice cream.

Or I could just buy some, what am I thinking?

2long, I think you ARE doing a plan, I think you just have a hard time explaining it to us, and you have a hard time articulating your reasons.

I think you do need to communicate your feelings about contact though, because if you say ILY she may be thinking "If you knew about continued contact, you would hate me." In fact, that may be part of her not saying it back.

Many of us still worry about your feelings and your happiness. It's hard to be happy when you are living in a triangle.

I must say you appear to be doing well today. I think you did well with the phone call, and gave her good support. Are you getting better at putting your feelings into words without LB's?

Let me say that different, I know you are getting better at it, - are you getting more comfortable with it? Does it feel more natural?
More taste? Less filling? No wait, that's something else altogether. Sorry.

SS

Welly, welly, welly. I disappear for a couple of months and come back to see what Ol’2Long’s been up to and I see “Same Sh*t, Different Day”. 2Long, I really like the place that you have come to within yourself. It is so “Now”, so “Zen”. When you look back upon yourself over the last 18 months and see who were at the beginning of this and compare it to who you are now, you probably shake your head in disbelief at the disparity in the two gentlemen that are you, but in different times. I know that I sometimes cannot believe where I have to come to within myself. I feel as though the whole experience pushed a rush of growth and self-discovery through me in a way that not many other life’s experiences can. It’s an awesome place to live from; a place that has much power. But, and I know you know this, the power comes not from your having more influence on people and events that surround you, it is in having command of yourself and moving through life from your true center. You are the master of yourself and no other, but in doing so and acting so you appear to influence the people and events that are around you in response to your newfound self-empowerment. The sun does not orbit around the planets. You have now become the “sun” of your own life’s solar system. You are no longer “chasing” the gravity of a bad situation to try and find new balance within it, nor are you trying to exert force upon it to alter its course. You are concentrating upon the one and only thing really any of us truly has power over, and that is ourselves. We cannot control life, but we can control how we react to it and how we choose to live within it.

In the past, 2Long, I, too, would be screaming for “radical honesty” or “Plan B” or some sort of revelatory confrontation to let her know that you know what is going on and you are not the fool she might think you to be, but I am not in that place any longer. All I noticed is that when I took the focus and energy away from the affair and stopped sitting in judgment of her and myself, or psycho-analyzing the begeezes out of her and myself, everything seemed to change. The change, of course, was within me, but to my amazement, when I had reached that state of “detached love” that I spoke to you about 2 or 3 months ago, she started to change in reaction to it. Now the center of gravity in my life, in our life, had become me. She was either going to follow me and the direction I was now taking myself, or fall to the wayside just out of shear matter-of-fact circumstance without any forcing of decision on my part. I cannot tell you just how confidence building it is or how powerful it is, to sit in the position I am in now. I now feel like we are walking side-by-side sharing the walk of marriage together. I know that I love her and I have forgiven her, but I have also said very plainly and calmly what I am willing to accept or not accept in our lives together. Let’s face it. There are things that I could very well tolerate or even accept in her as her friend but that I cannot accept or tolerate as her husband. For even though your spouse is ultimately your “best friend”, marriage is indeed a contract that has its own code of conduct that ensures that both parties give and receive the love, respect, and security that marriage offers and promises to us, but rarely delivers.

2Long, only you know for sure if you see true signs of positive change. Only you know for sure what you can and are willing to tolerate, and for how long you can endure same, but do take time to examine yourself and your situation and see if the promise of the marriage contract has the possibility of being fulfilled between you two. People here have noted that you are making it comfortable for your spouse to continue living the double-life, but let’s face it, you are making it comfortable for yourself, too.

Your centeredness helps you deal with life less painfully and more introspectively, but there will come a time for life and marriage defining action, it’s just that you are not ready to “ride the bull” yet, as it has been so aptly stated here, and that’s okay. It is obvious you are completely aware of what’s happening and what your choices are, and everyday you decide to stay another day. It’s a daily choice, a daily decision, and living so in the ever-present “now”.

When you are truly ready to “move on” you will act; and “moving on” doesn’t necessarily mean that the marriage goes away, it just means that you are ready to move forward in your life, and you wife will either be by your side as you move forward, or she will fall away as a result of it. When you “force” her to decide, you will not feel like you are actively forcing her to do anything, it will occur because she will feel the internal pressure building within herself to make a decision and act in response to your movement. There will be no acting in anger or vengeance from you, it will be just 2Long acting in accordance with his own self-realized life’s path and things will occur as a consequence of that, both positive and negative in nature, as the case may be. But no action will occur until the last of your fears have been overcome and you can act in such a way that you are not afraid of the outcome of your moving forward.

I have more to say and expound on, but no time left for now. Hopefully you get the point.

Your friend,

Scott

SS:

"Shoot,
I drove to Mexicali last Tuesday for a bike."

Don't feel bad. It coulda been a whole lot worse, you know. You could have ridden the bike 2 Mexicali 2 pick up your car!

"I could drive to LA tonight for ice cream.
Or I could just buy some, what am I thinking?"

;o) With your luck, if you came here, I'd be fresh out!

"2long, I think you ARE doing a plan, I think you just have a hard time explaining it to us, and you have a hard time articulating your reasons."

Yes. This is also how I got in2 this mess 2 begin with.

"I think you do need to communicate your feelings about contact though, because if you say ILY she may be thinking "If you knew about continued contact, you would hate me." In fact, that may be part of her not saying it back. "

I think this is true. I'm thinking about either sending her some version of that draft, or finding the courage 2 talk 2 her about it in person.

"Many of us still worry about your feelings and your happiness. It's hard to be happy when you are living in a triangle."

You bet it is.

"I must say you appear to be doing well today. I think you did well with the phone call, and gave her good support. Are you getting better at putting your feelings into words without LB's?"

I think so, particularly with stuff like that. Even with stuff pertaining 2 RM. Remember what I said 3 weeks ago? About contacting him myself? I think I said "I can't very well get him out of my life by pretending he exists, can I?

"Let me say that different, I know you are getting better at it, - are you getting more comfortable with it? Does it feel more natural?"

Some of it is, and does. Not enough though. I feel like a thick layer of ice needs 2 be broken before I can tell her how I feel about the contact. Like finding an entirely non-LBing way 2 tell her that I read the email, without having 2 do it in full armor, for fear of the thermonuclear reaction.

-2long

Blind!!! How are you, man? Well, that was a s2pid 2uestion, wasn't it? Obviously, you're doing fine!

I sit in awe of your powerful post!

This process is so amazing 2 me, as you so eloquently put in describing your own experiences. It takes time. It takes thoughtful reflection. It takes "nowness." It can't be forced, but it doesn't just do itself, either. Well, maybe it does in effect, but not without a sincere desire 2 improve one's self.

The way I look at it, I'm somewhere between point A and point B. Point B being that state of "total heaviousity", or centeredness.

How does that song go? "You can't be a beacon if your light don't shine?" Or maybe I'm missing the accent: "Y'all can't be a beacin' if yar laht dahn't shahn!"

I didn't get that right, did I?
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

♥2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The change, of course, was within me, but to my amazement, when I had reached that state of “detached love” that I spoke to you about 2 or 3 months ago, she started to change in reaction to it. Now the center of gravity in my life, in our life, had become me. She was either going to follow me and the direction I was now taking myself, or fall to the wayside just out of shear matter-of-fact circumstance without any forcing of decision on my part.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dang! BS you sound like Dr Harley on steroids. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

But seriously, your experience with detaching and letting go of any control over you W, is where most people should be in their marriages, no matter whether they have gone thru the trauma of an A or not.

Blind, 2MCM:

"The change, of course, was within me, but to my amazement, when I had reached that state of “detached love” that I spoke to you about 2 or 3 months ago, she started to change in reaction to it. Now the center of gravity in my life, in our life, had become me. She was either going to follow me and the direction I was now taking myself, or fall to the wayside just out of shear matter-of-fact circumstance without any forcing of decision on my part."

This isn't anything like arrogance, either, though it might sound like it 2 some. I've felt this, 2, though I hadn't put my finger on it until I read your post. In fact, it's one of the points I was trying 2 make, above, but not very successfully. It's the "signs of progress" we've been talking about.

In some ways, it seems like the distancing that gets so many of us in2 trouble 2 begin with, but with a very important difference. Instead of reacting 2 an effort 2 lure me in2 a "negativity discussion" or LB argument, I deflect it with something positive. Not because I'm holier and it's beneath ME, but because WE'RE holier and it's beneath US. Put her on an equal footing (because that's where we've been all along anyway) and respect her feelings about whatever it is. Deflecting the negativity with positivity isn't steering her, either. It's more like "hey, what about this? Something that just popped in2 my mind. A different perspective. Whadaya think?" That way, it's shown as something either of us could have though of, not just me, and so it's not arrogance.

I'm rambling again! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

-ol' crusty 2long.

BLIND SIDED*SCOTT

That was soooo beautiful .... it hurt my heart to read .... it was so beautiful !

Golly~~~

Wow Scott, well said with many great thoughts. Everyone should read your post!!

I heard someone once say that you need to live in "your own reality" and not just be a part of someone else's. Knda the same idea I think.

-Conan

TMCM,2Long,Pepperband

2Long: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This isn't anything like arrogance, either, though it might sound like it 2 some. I've felt this, 2, though I hadn't put my finger on it until I read your post. In fact, it's one of the points I was trying 2 make, above, but not very successfully. It's the "signs of progress" we've been talking about.

In some ways, it seems like the distancing that gets so many of us in2 trouble 2 begin with, but with a very important difference. Instead of reacting 2 an effort 2 lure me in2 a "negativity discussion" or LB argument, I deflect it with something positive. Not because I'm holier and it's beneath ME, but because WE'RE holier and it's beneath US. Put her on an equal footing (because that's where we've been all along anyway) and respect her feelings about whatever it is. Deflecting the negativity with positivity isn't steering her, either. It's more like "hey, what about this? Something that just popped in2 my mind. A different perspective. Whadaya think?" That way, it's shown as something either of us could have though of, not just me, and so it's not arrogance.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You got it dude! It is not arrogance at all! When you come from a place of such peace, inner-awareness, and knowing, it appears as though you are copping some holier-than-thou attitude, but that’s not the place where you really are. Not allowing things to pull you off your center, not allowing anyone to “hook” you into their drama, their problems, is unnerving to many around you. You can come off as trying to remain aloof, uninterested, uncaring, but that is so far from the truth. Actually, you are even more caring than before, but in a different way. You care about yourself, you care about your spouse, and you care about the marriage; it’s just that you are not going to let circumstances or situations tear you apart. You are now in a more altruistic humanitarian state of caring, but within that lies the love that you have for your spouse, a love like no other. Your heart’s desire wants to see your wife come to the realization that what she is in has trapped her in a shell that is stunting her growth and limiting her capacity to truly fill her life with things that bring real happiness and a sense of self-worth and fulfillment. It’s almost like you are at the bend in the Yellow Brick Road and you can see the Emerald City ahead of you and your wife behind you at the same time. It’s a weird vantage point to be in. You are excited about what lies ahead for you and you want that to be what lies ahead for both of you together. Your love is what makes you stay where you are, coaxing your wife along, enticing her to the bright future that you can now see but that she cannot see at this time. But don’t worry, you are not retarding your growth by waiting, for it is said that when we stop on the ladder of conscious-awareness ascension to help someone just below us make it to the next rung, you are actually raising both of you up at the same time, for it is an honorable and unselfish act. There is no condescension in the “healthy place” that you strive to be in now, only compassion for those that are still seeking “the way” but appear to be lost at the present moment. The way I see the shift in consciousness is ultimately this: Before, you were reacting to life; life was an outside event that was happening to you. Now, you are an active participant in life itself, co-creating your own destiny. Okay, enough of that for now. I’m just so excited to see you go through this, 2Long. It is one helluva journey and you have only just begun! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

TMCM: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Dang! BS you sound like Dr Harley on steroids.

But seriously, your experience with detaching and letting go of any control over you W, is where most people should be in their marriages, no matter whether they have gone thru the trauma of an A or not.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Steroids? Ok, I’ll ‘fess up to taking them. The only drawback in taking them is that they shrink your heuvos! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> LOL Well I am humbled by your compliment. I appreciate the feedback. It just shows me that I’m not just “blowing smoke” up your collective a$$es! LOL Sorry, I’m so full of p*ss and vinegar today! GRIN Seriously, I really do enjoy the positive feedback from seasoned MB’ers such as yourself. I agree with you. That state-of-mind is desireable regardless of whether an A exists or not, for it can applied to many other situations in life as well. Thank you so much.

Pepperband: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> That was soooo beautiful .... it hurt my heart to read .... it was so beautiful !</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you, Pepperband. I appreciate your response. I speak from my heart; from my sacred space within, and it brightens my day to know that I have touched someone in a positive way. I am grateful for that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ July 02, 2003, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: Blind Sided ]</small>

Pretty much everybody:

There's so much more 2 all of this that I don't have the time at the moment 2 talk about here, but I intend 2 at some point when I can. So much, that relates directly 2 the particular, peculiar predicament I find myself in right now, that needs clarification, comment, and all that.

It's so easy 2 get drowned by the hurt of an A, because it's such a visible, seemingly tangible handle 2 grab on2. But what's clear 2 me (and yet needs 2 be made clear 2 me over and over again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ), is that grabbing on2 it, in whatever form "it" takes (like this marital prosti2tion subject) distracts me in a way that's completely unhealthy and completely misses the point. And that is that my W is crying out for an answer 2 SOME 2uestion, some perceived sickness with our M or her experiences with men in general.

I'm not ready 2 run away from her at this point, though I certainly sound like I'm about 2 many times. I want 2 be able 2 help her, particularly knowing that, since I've been the one M'd 2 her for 27.5 years now (and that she's chosen 2 stay M'd 2 for that long, in spite of this view), that I'm part of the problem. I can't be of much help 2 her finding the solution 2 that problem if I'm in plan B, so I'm not going 2 be in plan B.

Sure, the things she said about M are personal, particularly since she said them 2 RM, about ME (but she was being general, she never mentioned me specifically). But I can either take them personally and react out of hurt, or disgust, or whatever. Or, I can try 2 understand how she got this perspective. I choose 2 do the latter, though I will freely admit that I desperately need help 2 do so. I honestly have very little in the way of clues here.

♥Qfwfq