</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yesterday, she said, about a friend of hers "she wants so much to have a boyfriend and can't seem to find peace without one. Whereas I never wanted one." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hehehe man she sure does a lot of boyfriend stringing for her to want none of it. It would be funny if it wasn't so confusing... well it is actually funny, sorry <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

I think she just says these things and it doesn't quite register untill it's come out of her mouth.

She sounds confused to me, she doesn't want to be married, but alas, she is still married, and she doesn't seem to be taking any offers, hints or initiative to stop being married. She doesn't want any boyfriends, but she likes keeping a spare one in the garage for rainy days.

I think she just doesn't want to have to make any decisions, she might hang around forever, just complaining about how marriage is such a pain, how she needs to have a boyfriend on the side, but how she hates that, and just go on at it forever.

I am not sure she is addicted to drama, but she sure acts like she likes it a lot if she won't get on with anything.

Maybe she can get over the bump with some jolt, maybe she will just deflate and stay in the ditch. The question is, you wanna stay in the ditch with her forever, and accept a life like the one you are living? Or you want to take the risk and get over the bump and see if you can actually have a happier life?

I mean, if you love her so very much that you can accept a different outlook, a negative one, in marriage, and her need to keep her boyfriend and still be a happy person... hey, well... I dunno, it might work. But if it is going to drive you insane... I'd say it is time to poke her so she can move along or get out of the way.

All things said, I dont know where you get that patience from, but I could need some. I can be patient, but boy do I have my limit. If that was my WS he'd be so out he'd probably stop existing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

espoir:

"Way to go, Q! I thought your convo with W sounded excellent. And I like your insight into your POV of her "marriage as prostitution" comment."

Thank you. It really does feel 2 me like I've finally "gotten it" re the prosti2tion viewpoint. It 2k her at least 13 years 2 "develop" the viewpoint, so I think I owe it 2 her 2 try 2 be patient in understanding it and maybe helping her "undo" it. Well, that's her responsibility, but I can certainly do my best 2 stop resisting her efforts 2 understand that.

"Your thought about "if you never wanted a boyfriend, why do you have 2" cracks me up. I kinda wish you had said it to your W as a joking comment. Sometimes I think that the whole solution to this situation is not to take it so seriously, to inject a little humor into it."

I wish I had said something at the moment. I'm struggling with my unwillingness 2 do things like that. Humor is great medicine, and I use it a lot, but it would have been a sarcastic reply, and I doubt it would have been viewed as funny at the time. I am injecting humor in when I can, but it is very difficult, and fine-line-treading, 2 be sure.

"Take the power away from RM and all the marriage negative comments."

Indeed, the road 2 enlightenment!

"I mean, really, it's ridiculous! Can you tease her at all about this stuff, or is she pretty humorless? It's a very fine line to tread and it's very difficult."

I am struggling 2 find out. Most of the time, I think she's humorless, but that's a judgement. I do need 2 stop doing that.

"Try lightening up for a couple of days, no R talk, tease her a bit, flirt with her, throw her some unexpected compliments. Ignore the whole RM thing- don't give him power. Think to yourself- "I have the power" and then act accordingly. You have the power not to let all this stuff devastate you. "

Yes. All very delicate, maybe more so because I'm human and I don't always say or do the right things. She's back at work 2day, and will probably be talking 2 RM 2day or sometime this week. This makes it hard for me 2 ignore him, but I will try. ...unless I can make light of the ridiculosity without being judgemental! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-2long

ALW:

"Hehehe man she sure does a lot of boyfriend stringing for her to want none of it. It would be funny if it wasn't so confusing... well it is actually funny, sorry."

Yes, I suppose it really us funny, but it is also very confusing. And not easy 2 extricate one's self from, I assure you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

"I think she just says these things and it doesn't quite register untill it's come out of her mouth."

I don't think it registers at all. But that's a judgement on my part, 2!

"I think she just doesn't want to have to make any decisions, she might hang around forever, just complaining about how marriage is such a pain, how she needs to have a boyfriend on the side, but how she hates that, and just go on at it forever."

I don't know. I think it'll become very tiring for her even2ally. Or maybe it has already been for a long time, but because the A lasted so long, it's that hard for her 2 recognize this perspective, assuming it's the right one.

"I am not sure she is addicted to drama, but she sure acts like she likes it a lot if she won't get on with anything."

She would insist that she's not. She hates drama shows, particularly soaps, and doesn't realize that she's living in one. She has had lucid moments where she realizes she needs 2 get on with her life, but she remains undecided as 2 what she wants 2 do. My reaction 2 her comment about moving out (and that was just 2 months ago), probably "forced" her 2 change her mind about doing so. I think it's possible she resents that, and I know I regret it, but it was how I felt at the time. I think that, if she had moved out on her own or even gone 2 stay with RM, the fence-sitting would have been a lot closer 2 over by now than it is. And so I have 2 live with the consequences of my choices at the time (possibly enabling the fence-sitting 2 continue, but nevertheless telling her how I felt). And I also have 2 let her face the consequences of her own choices, whatever they are, without trying 2 control any of it.

"Maybe she can get over the bump with some jolt, maybe she will just deflate and stay in the ditch."

Maybe.

"The question is, you wanna stay in the ditch with her forever, and accept a life like the one you are living? Or you want to take the risk and get over the bump and see if you can actually have a happier life?"

Well, obviously I don't want 2 stay in this ditch forever. I don't think she does, either. How 2 get out, though? I have ditches of my own construction I'm dealing with. She obviously has hers. Neither one of us can see our own ditches all that clearly, or don't want 2. And we certainly can't presume 2 have the eagle-eye view of the other's ditches. So, in which direction is the happier life? I'm still looking! I want 2 help her find hers, just as badly as I want 2 find my own. I'm so delighted with the improved communication, though, that I'd prefer jolting MYSELF 2 communicate more honestly and frequently, rather than jolting her by "turning up in plan B" some afternoon at 5:00pm or something, with nothing but a love note with detailed instructions about what 2 do if she wants me home. ...there I go with a cynical remakr about plan B again!

"I mean, if you love her so very much that you can accept a different outlook, a negative one, in marriage, and her need to keep her boyfriend and still be a happy person... hey, well... I dunno, it might work. But if it is going to drive you insane... I'd say it is time to poke her so she can move along or get out of the way."

The 2uestion is, how 2 do this lovingly, if it's called for. Boy, we just had a party for my D's 24th birthday this weekend, and I just realized... ...my M is older than you are! How did you get 2 be so wise, ALW? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> (and that was meant entirely as a compliment!)

"All things said, I dont know where you get that patience from, but I could need some. I can be patient, but boy do I have my limit. If that was my WS he'd be so out he'd probably stop existing "

And this probably comes from having dealt with a long term M that has been broken for so long. I don't want 2 toss it away idly. I don't want 2 live like this forever, either. But I don't think I'll have 2.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> 2long

Hmmm, I almost think it would be interesting at this point if you brought up in a caring, concerned, loving way, that you just hate to see her suffer so much within a marriage that she never really wanted anyway and that her happiness means more to you than keeping a piece of paper intact between you two. Does she know that she is not “trapped” in her marriage with you? If she does know that, then I wonder if she is into some kind of victim mentality (O poor suffering me) that for some strange reason she feels a need to perpetuate to you, to RM, and who knows whom else. Is this state-of-mind in her a remote possibility to consider? Just a thought….

Blind:

"Hmmm, I almost think it would be interesting at this point if you brought up in a caring, concerned, loving way, that you just hate to see her suffer so much within a marriage that she never really wanted anyway and that her happiness means more to you than keeping a piece of paper intact between you two."

This is the one part of that draft email (particularly the first iteration) that SS suggested 2 me 2 try, but that I probably haven't implemented, at least not verbally all that well, and certainly not in an email. Probably out of a residual fear. Fear of being without her. Fear of dealing with our complicated house sitch. But living "like this" gets 2 be a bit much at times, so I think that verbalizing this lovingly is a good idea.

"Does she know that she is not “trapped” in her marriage with you?"

I've told her this, but that's not the same thing as "knowing" it.

"If she does know that, then I wonder if she is into some kind of victim mentality (O poor suffering me) that for some strange reason she feels a need to perpetuate to you, to RM, and who knows whom else. Is this state-of-mind in her a remote possibility to consider? Just a thought…."

It's far from a remote possibility. It's HER. And this is not a DJ, it's from her own mouth, and frequently (and hurtfully, though she's just realizing that it hurts me, and sometimes lately she's shown some empathy for that hurt). I've been reluctant 2 hit this particular nail because, as a "subconsciously self-declared victim", it is VERY difficult not 2 point it out without sounding disrespectful. Any suggestions?

-ol' 2long

Hm...

I called my W, 2 see how her day is going, and she said she may have a job offer... ...about 500 miles from here. She applied for this a 2ple of months ago. She'll be flying up there next week for an interview. It's for less money than she's making now, and supervising people that do the same kind of work RM does for her at her current job. It's probably for about 6 months, where she would be working out of their office. Good thing is that some of the work, if it goes long term, would be in [state where her grandparent's home is], and some of it only about 70 miles N of there.

She's got some trades 2 consider, like she'd have 2 quit her teaching job for this (though she might be able 2 take a hiatus). She said she doesn't know what she wants 2 do, and doesn't expect 2 much from the interview.

She asked me if I was okay with this news (in a genuinely-caring tone, not a spiteful one). And I said "I want you 2 be happy. Whatever that takes." It doesn't mean the end of our M, doesn't even address it, really. It might be a bit harder for us 2 "recover" if she takes the job and leaves before we "work things out." On the other hand, it might be good for us 2 be apart, but not separated (or in plan B). I think it's obvious I'd rather she not go, but I do want her happiness more than I want control over her choices, even if it's only the appearance of control.

I don't know. I'm going 2 try and not over analyze this. It's her interview. Her career. Her choice.

And, if you remember, I went on an out-of-state interview last September. I was inclined 2 accept the job if they'd have offered it. And it would have been permanent.

-ol' 2long

2Long:

If your ability to discuss things with your W matches your attitude right now, you will do well.

I think it's obvious I'd rather she not go,

Well, that always gets me in a lot of trouble. Tell her flat out how you feel, and why you feel that way. IN A NICE WAY.

"Thanks for telling me about that job offer, I want to clarify some of my feelings about you taking that job...................it would proabably hurt me if you left now with all that is going on....................I did mean it about you being free, but I hope my feelings are important to you, as yours are to me.................it would be nice for me to know what your intend our future to be like, this gives us a good chance to discuss it.................I would like to improve and strengthen our relationship or - well what good is a marriage that isn't wanted by one of the parties. I suppose this gives you a good chance to think about what you want.

Lots of ideas, but again, they are ideas and perhaps it will help you think of better ones on your own.

SS

SS:

some good suggestions there. Thanks!

Since the call, I've been back and forth about this. Like I said, she said it's not permanent, though like many such oppor2nities, it could become permanent if things work out. It would be one way for her 2 work near her research property and enable her even 2 live at her grandparent's house near there.

And, like you say, I really am most interested in her happiness. Comments like this morning's, re "everybody expects me 2 be perfect" and her anti-M comments continuing, have me wondering, though, if suggesting a complete break as one of the options might be the right thing 2 do now. For her as well as for me. But then, I realize I'm just really getting tired of all this. And then, I remember that she'll always be my kids' mother, and I'll always have dealings of some sort with her. And I don't want 2 suggest DV, would rather she think of it herself if that's what she wants (and because she consistently avoids it, I don't think it's what she wants). I still have "grow-work" 2 do, and I'd rather do it with her than anyone else. So, I'm not looking for a chance 2 get out there and "cruise chicks" (in a rusty, 1960 VW singlecab pickup, no less!) anytime soon, either! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

The anti-M comments since the convo and the one this morning have me thinking that I didn't make my thoughts, re your suggestions above, clear enough in our convo last week, and so I still need 2. I will think about what you've suggested as a framework for that.

-ol' 2long.

Hmmm, almost sounds like my approach, 2Long. Letting the spouse make their own life decisions to see where their heart lies without any undo coercion or pressure on our parts. We certainly don't want to be blamed for blocking the path to their happiness, even at the expense of our own. I will discuss things over with my wife in an "interested party" sort of way and let her talk herself through all of her thoughts and reach a personal decision. If my spouse keeps making "healthy decisions", that is, decisions that show me that she is interested in "us" moving forward "together", I am very pleased and I let her know that. I try to strike a balance of letting her know that I do care for her and love her but I am not going to smother or stifle her dreams, even if that means parting ways. In a way, when she makes her decisions from this type of interchange, she feels better about it than if I really tried to influence her to a place where I wanted her to be. In this way she truly "owns" the choice that she has made. I let her know what I think and feel she has all the data to work with in making her decisions and choices, but I don't push it on her like doctrine. I think you know what I mean here. So I think it's okay to at least let her know you would miss her a lot and that you love her immensely but at the same time you support whatever she needs in her life to make her feel fulfilled and achieve personal happiness.

Blind:

Yes!

And you know? I used 2 say, jokingly: "There's a right way, a wrong way, and the [insert employer's name] way. ...in THAT order!"

But, in truth, there isn't even a right and a wrong way, a right or a wrong path. Some paths may be more expedient than others, some more painful than others. But if the ultimate goal of all of us is 2 be the best daisy-pusher in the bone orchard, then it only matters how we eschew our own integrity for our descendents when it comes 2 making difficult choices in our lives.

-ol' 2long

SS:

I've been thinking all afternoon (while working on my other computer!) about what 2 say if I were 2 compose another email 2 marshall my thoughts, like last week. And I started 2 write something, and changed my mind, because it was looking so much like parts of what I wrote last week but didn't need 2 send because we TALKED about it. And you know what? I've decided that I want 2 try and find out if I have the courage 2 talk 2 her about my concerns about the job and her continued contempt of M, instead of emailing something 2 her. I think I do have it. Gonna find out, though!

-2long.

2long,

I think women prefer talking, but there is far greater risk in communicating since conversations can be unpredictable. Nevertheless....I think you are ready. Write your thoughts down anyway, it's good practice. Asking questions is a good way to find out information....not as in an inquisition, but with concern. ex. "W, how do you envision your leaving for this job will affect our relationship?"

Personally,buddy, it's been driving me nutz that you don't tell her your feelings as you are feeling them. (NOT every single feeling, but the important ones that concern her directly)

You are allowed to say your feelings .... OUT LOUD .... without implying that your W is the author of those feelings.

"I feel saddened by the thought of you living so far from me for very long."

"I feel a wretched ache when I think I am not pleasing you as a husband."

If you own your feelings, you may speak even the difficult ones, and it is not judging, it is being emotionally naked and vulnerable.

Once you learn that communication technique ... you are a free man. Free to express yourself openly. Free to hear your W express her feelings openly .... and let HER own her feelings.

Pep

lol yeah sometimes I do forget I am very young compared to some of the marriages in the forum.

I guess my lack of patience with matters like this comes from the fact that I have been dangled too close for comfort to death, and I have this need to be happy for as long and as soon as I can have it, and that makes my patience shorten.

I know that it might sound like you would be throwing a marriage that has survived for so long, something you have worked so far for. Things do change after a long time though, the people we marry evolve in completely different individuals. Sometimes the change has devastating effects, sometimes they change so much they aren't who we would have picked to marry, etc etc.

I am not sure what would jump start the ditch leaving, plan B'ing isn't for you, divorce I think sounds too harsh, maybe letting yourself express your emotions like pepper said could help somehow.

I am just wondering, when you look at your marriage, in the full picture, can you say, that if you were younger, single, and dating, if you knew all that has happened, would you marry your wife again? Even if you couldn't change one thing? Knowing where it was going to take you?

I don't know, I just wish I had the answer to make your wife get over whatever it is that is dragging her down, I wish I had the infinite wisdom to find a way to make her be happy and just appreciate marriage as the beautiful thing it is, not as the burden she thinks she is carrying.

I do know one thing though, ultimately, the one person in this world that can make you happy and will make you happy, and has the absolute power in taking decisions to change your life is you. Your wife can choose whatever path she will choose, but hanging around intersections makes life shorter and it is extremely short as it is handled to us in the first place.

I wonder if she is happy, if she knows what will make her happy, and if she knows it, what it is. If she doesn't, you might be waiting for somebody who is lost to start walking somewhere, and people that are lost and know it tend to hesitate and trip so often, sometimes they just give up and sit in the same spot, waiting for somebody to show them the way home.

Maybe it is just an extended mid-life crisis, that just goes on and on and on.

Maybe I just had too much sugar and I am rambling too much <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> .

2Long,

I do not want to cut into your and Blind's party here, but is your W narcissistic? Her behavior seems to really match up with what I have seen of that disorder up close. If applicable, reading up on that disorder and what it means to a person's perspective on life is very eye opening. In my case it really explained quite a bit of bahavior. The fact is that it is very hard to treat.

curious,
Conan

Alostwife-

Sorry to take a note to you on Q'a thread- but this is on topic.

I noticed you are 23. I am only a little over a decade older, but I have been married almost 12 years and have a 4 yr old and an 11 yr old. I am certainly not saying marriage can be / or should be saved for the kids, but it is a Factor.

Also time invested and lives built together is a factor.

You have some great ideas, but I wonder if you had been married even 10, much less 20 or more years, with kids, homes, planned futures in retirement, and a life where you only imagined yourself with your beloved- would you say give up and go... not saying that you sd that, but would you advise to go with the dating idea you suggested, if just dating would this of been ok?

No- life is always going to throw us the unexpected... what makes marriage work- Commitment to our marriage vows... even if one of us falls the other is there to pick that fallen spouse up. Christian principles help families work. What feels good isn't always what is right. Yes, we all deserve happiness, and certainly ! does---

However, I applaud Q for his outstanding commitment to his wife and family despite her confusion. FOr this reason I do think his marriage can be saved and saved well if he hangs in there... now I am not up on all the latest story, I just read parts of this post and mostly this page.

It just struck me that at 23, you can easily start over... I did get divorded myself at 23 from a man I married at 22 who I had dated for several years prior, that is now in the past and yes it was wrong. Could that marriage of worked? Yes, but letting it go was the best thing for me to do, and my h then did not want to work on the M at all and was abusive.

However... a marriage of many years... is different. I have known my husband 19 years, almost 12 of which we have been married....that is a lot different/and hard to let go of, as I am sure Q might attest to.. he has been my life.

Don't feel bad by my reply to you.... Your post was wise and it would be wonderful to just pick up when things aren't working and go.... especially if you are at a junction where that is more ok.... but when your life is in it, and you meant your marriage vows? If everyone picks up and goes wshen the M doesn't feel right or wasn't what was planned/imagined then that does explain the divorce epidemic... I do think that is evne the reasoning of an A at times... I deserve happiness!!! stomping foot!

I know that my opinions are just that, and your post ALW only springboarded my feelings on this subject. Your post was kind and well meant, I do not mean to offend you with my differet view....

GOtta go to work..

Honey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But if the ultimate goal of all of us is 2 be the best daisy-pusher in the bone orchard, then it only matters how we eschew our own integrity for our descendents when it comes 2 making difficult choices in our lives.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Your dry tongue-in-cheek humor really cracks me up! Good for a couple of chuckles to start my day.

I like what Pepperband and Star*Fish had to add to this thread. It’s always good to get the female perspective. Sounds like just a slight shift in how you communicate your feelings allows the freedom to do so without sounding like you have an agenda that you may be trying to push on her. Good suggestions from both of them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> From Conan: I do not want to cut into your and Blind's party here</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I didn’t think we were having a party, but I’m game! Actually, perhaps we are, for we are celebrating life in a new way and enjoying every moment, extracting as much as joy and happiness as we can muster from each day. We have embraced the challenge of our lives with a new attitude, an attitude which allows us to get excited over the prospect of learning and growing each day, becoming better developed hominids in the process. We don’t have all the answers but we are certainly willing to explore various options and avenues of actions that perhaps we would not have considered previously. Instead of being stagnant as personalities or stubbornly set in our ways in how we react to situations or people around us, we now find ourselves prepared to accept positive changes within ourselves and move through life more fluidly.

The only constant in our lives is change, so we now recognize that change is not the enemy, it is our ally. The willingness to be open to new possibilities within and without yourself brings to you an almost magical power that increases the wonderment of discovery as the mystery of life and the true inner-essence of your being unfolds before you. We don’t have the answers to everything, never will, but we are actively seeking them, and that’s the important part.

The only danger I see in this new mental state, and the one I try to guard against, is in getting so philosophical and psychoanalytical that I find myself becoming so detached as to be above everything, where nothing touches me or affects me, and that is not my true goal. I still want to feel, to reach out and touch, to affect and be affected, and to experience the emotions that life’s experiences and relationships bring to us all, it’s just that I want to enhance and elevate my experiences to a higher level of conscious awareness in the process. I must walk in balance. I am in this world but not of this world. Does this make sense to you?

Okay, enough of the psycho-babble for now.

Like I said earlier, the suggestions that have been made sound like good ones. You can experiment with them and see if they work for you. Good luck. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

star:

"I think women prefer talking, but there is far greater risk in communicating since conversations can be unpredictable."

yes, there is. And I've felt, much of the past 18 months (heck, the past 15 years, maybe more!) that my W's anger and resentment of me would cause the smallest point I might make 2 escalate in2 a dead-end argument. I don't feel that way anymore. Really. It was like a switch being flipped, that convo we had last week. I still feel kind of giddy about. And that's without any certainty regarding the fu2re. Well, that isn't right. There is certainty. Certainty that I'm HERE 2 learn something, and hopefully pass the experiences on 2 my kids and so forth.

"ex. "W, how do you envision your leaving for this job will affect our relationship?""

Well, I didn't do THAT, exactly. What I did say was that I want her 2 be happy. Whether that means she takes this job and leaves me in the process, or she takes the job and we stay in constant contact and she flys home every other weekend. Doesn't matter which 2 me, though I certainly do enjoy her company.

I made no restrictions, even roundaboutly (word?) implied restrictions. I did not ask her how she though the job might affect our relationship, because I don't think she can know any more than I can. She did say that, if she took it, that flights back and forth would be cheap, so she could come home every other weekend. She also said it's a lower paying job and she probably won't be interested (because she would have 2 give up her teaching job). But we 2th agreed that she can't know until she goes for the interview. And remember, I did the same thing last summer, though at the time I wasn't in such an "evolved" state of mind, and if I'd been offered the job, probably would have taken it, possibly as a vindictive act, 2. It's hard looking back at that experience (and how I cried when I talked 2 her on the phone after the interview - because, although I had only been gone for 3 days, I really, really missed her, and she missed me 2) and judge her choices about this offer now, or even want 2 make her feel constrained by my "needs" or, more precisely, my fears (which have almost disappeared in just the past week!).

Thanks for the post!
-2long

Pepper:

"Personally,buddy, it's been driving me nutz that you don't tell her your feelings as you are feeling them. (NOT every single feeling, but the important ones that concern her directly)"

Sorry! Don't want 2 drive you nutz! It was fear that kept me from doing this. That fear is fading, if not completely gone now. I'm thinking much more clearly as a result, 2.

"You are allowed to say your feelings .... OUT LOUD .... without implying that your W is the author of those feelings."

True! And now I feel I've given myself the power 2 do so, without worry.

"I feel saddened by the thought of you living so far from me for very long."

I told her this! Cool, huh?

"I feel a wretched ache when I think I am not pleasing you as a husband."

I told her this, 2, but not in so many words. ;o)

"If you own your feelings, you may speak even the difficult ones, and it is not judging, it is being emotionally naked and vulnerable.
Once you learn that communication technique ... you are a free man. Free to express yourself openly. Free to hear your W express her feelings openly .... and let HER own her feelings."

Indeed, this is absolutely true!!! Finally? I think so. We'll see.

ol' 2long

Hey .... Here is an all-purpose response for those times you're NOT sure you can express yourself without LB'ing.

Look her in the eyes and say a soft, "ouch".... while touching your chest with your hand.

GUESS WHAT! my "boss" just brought me a advanced copy of our professional journal .... and our research is featured!

Joy! Joy! Joy! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'll email you details.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ July 08, 2003, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>