Wanted to write about my trip to Wonderland with my daughter in my previous thread, instead, got all upset and angry at the WW so this post is a venting session.

For two days D didn't call her mom because we were away. Today, D tries several times to call her to no avail. She misses her mom and suffers when WW doesn't make an effort to contact her.

D feels abandoned. I do everything to accommodate her, to reassure her but when something like this happens it's very hard to maintain that her mom is the best and she loves her.

Later D remembers that WW told her she will be at a OM's friends' cottage for four days. It's not a big deal, but it just killed me. I don't know what got into me, but I feel horrible. It's like being humiliated over and over again by WW and OM. After everything they've done, they should be hiding from people and really suffer in their crummy little apartment. Instead, they're having a good time at the cottage with "friends".

Please, don't get me wrong. I don't want revenge. I want them to see that their actions are influencing other people's lives. Her daughter is suffering when her mom is not around. Doesn't WW understand that? Go to the cottage, but find a way to talk to your daughter. Tell her that you miss her. Instead, she announces her plans, and then makes sure nobody disturbs them.

I hang in there as much as I can, but how am I going to let her back when she comes out of the fog after all this? She was not hiding the affair after the D-day. She doesn't seem to mind that her old friends are disgusted by her behavior. She doesn't care if her own D is hurt. Never mind me. I "deserve" it.

Sometimes I think that she is never going to get out of the fog. Or will pretend to be happy for so long, she will believe in it herself.

If I did something like that, I would have hidden from the people I knew, from my D, from coworkers. I would have felt ashamed to walk in the street. I don't know how she does it. To live like that day after day. Constantly doing everything to hurt me more. I don't know where she gets the ideas but it seems she never runs out of them.

I am getting really tired of it all. Why can't I call it quit and get on with my life already? Why do I have to suffer? Why should I reject the attention of other women?

I have a coworker who genuinely wants to help me in this whole ordeal. He tells me every day that this is a lost cause and I must give up. I contradict him. I tell him about this wonderful board, MB, great people that help me going through this. His only question is "If everything you say is true, why are you the only one sufferning?" Sometimes I think he is right. This is a lost cause...

Please reply, I need your support. I am ready to throw the towel...

--------------------------------------
My story:

D-day
Update #1
Update #2
Update #3

<small>[ June 30, 2003, 11:21 PM: Message edited by: BigStar ]</small>

Big Star,

Now you need to step back and breathe. What have you read? Harley books wise, etc????

Pray for a clear mind and a calm heart. It is not normal for a mother to neglect her daughter, toss her friends and ignore/blame her H. Just not normal.

So you have to be the one whose head is on straight ok? Let your daughter know you love her and will be there for her. This is more important than your daughter coming out of the fog.

Think about this and post back. ok? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

take care,
L.

Your WW's callousness, cruelty, and insensitivity could be matched by my H's anyday. See some of my posts -- it's been sadistic and outrageous. And, apparently, H is being accepted by our friends, and has taken OW publicly with him by his side everywhere, within 48 hours of moving out -- and she is observably weird, and has been known to be weird by everyone. He abandoned his son two months from graduation -- but he is having a grand time, and will be taking OW to Bermuda next month. Etc., etc., etc. It's fog, it's not normal, all of that.

How would I forgive him all this if he came back? I don't think about it. He hasn't come back. I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. If I come to it.

Pretend she is dead. If you have to deal with her, pretend she is a psychiatric patient. She might as well be. You wouldn't try to hold a psychiatric patient accountable for his psychotic behavior, would you? You wouldn't yell and scream at him, would you?

My H moved out in late March. Lately, I've tried thinking of myself as a widow. Less resentment that way.

Yes, by all means, do move on. If you reconcile, you will be more whole. If you divorce, you will be more whole. It's hard, I know. I'm doing it myself. But actually, when I'm not drawn into my internal monologue about what a evil scumsucker he is, I haven't been having all that bad of a time. More fun that sharing a bed with a man who betrays me and treats me like a doormat.

And as for the running internal monologue about what a rotter he is -- if we reconcile, I won't be able to say those things; if we divorce, why bother saying any of them?

<small>[ July 01, 2003, 12:46 AM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

<strong>
I am ready to throw the towel...
</strong>

What do you mean by that, Big Star. Actually, your statement is meaningless. You know why? If ‘throw in the towel’ means asking for a divorce and moving on, then how much different would that be to the situation you are in now? Your daughter would still live with you partially. Your wife would still go and enjoy herself and do whatever she wants, regardless of your feelings or your daughter’s. You still would get hurt once in a while when your wife (or someone else) will hit a trigger.

The only thing you can do now is taking yourself out of the firing line, getting some distance between yourself and your wife and look after yourself.

But you are already doing that. That’s what plan B is all about, right?

The only difference between BigStar now and a divorced BigStar is hope…. Hope that maybe, one day, she’ll see the situation for what it is and reconsider. By all means, I don’t tell you to lose hope. But I would adopt a different mindset: Look, it’s out of your hands now. Your actions can’t control the outcome. You are separated. The ball is in her court. She just has to pick it up, if she wants. Insh'allah, kak bokh dast. But be prepared that she never will. Again, think about my question about your time horizon. Next February, you will be separated for a full year. Carry on until then and take stock in February.

<small>[ July 01, 2003, 05:39 AM: Message edited by: Nick123 ]</small>

Nick, some great thoughts about "throwing in the towel"! Thanks! What's "Inshallah kak bokh dast"?

Sorry to hear about your latest news in your footer...

<small>[ July 01, 2003, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

Nick, some great thoughts about "throwing in the towel! Thanks! What's "Inshallah kak bokh dast"?

thanks!
it's along the lines of "as god gives" or "as god decides" or "it's in the hands of god"

Thank you guys,

Throwing the towel means not to think about two possible outcomes whenever I make a decicion. Be it about renovating the house, planning a vacation, meeting other people (including the opposite sex), etc... Whatever I do, I have to think about the future. How will this benefit our recovery? What if the recovery will never happen?

I have to make some big decisions soon. One of them is the house. If I continue to hope that she will comeback I have to keep it so that she has "a home" to comback to. If she doesn't comeback for another year, I am home poor and cannot afford even the basics. Never mind a vacation or some other big ticket items like furniture (she will have half of it taken away). It would be beneficial to me to sell the house and move into a small apartment, but what if she decides to "come home"?

Dif you notice how many "what if"s I used to describe what my dilemma is? I am tired of that. She still controlls my decisions, my thoughts, my day to day life. In the meantime, she has no resposibilities, no regards for our D, just faking a good time.

I would like to do what is good for ME, but let's admit, this is not real. Good for me, right now would be to go for 6 months to Belize for some serious diving. Then stay there for another year or two. Having my daughter with me would be super beneficial.

Instead I have to chose between being house poor and living in a crummy apartment. I have to avoid contact with the opposite sex, reason being not to have an affair of my own. How is that beneficial to ME? I am not planning to have an affair, but I have needs just like everybody else. I could put them on the back burner of course. But after what I've been through, I think I deserve a break.

I don't know if I make any sence today, but as I said, this is a venting session...

BigStar

OK BigStar, let’s be very practical here:

<strong>
I would like to do what is good for ME, but let's admit, this is not real. Good for me, right now would be to go for 6 months to Belize for some serious diving. Then stay there for another year or two.
</strong>

Agree fully. you should ineed do what is good for YOU . No sure though whether Belize is the right option – it’s a seriously boring place and very much mosquito infested. Maybe you’d enjoy the first month or so, but after?

<strong>
I have to make some big decisions soon. One of them is the house. If I continue to hope that she will comeback I have to keep it so that she has "a home" to comback to. If she doesn't comeback for another year, I am home poor and cannot afford even the basics.
It would be beneficial to me to sell the house and move into a small apartment, but what if she decides to "come home"?
</strong>

That’s a no-brainer. The answer is of course: Sell it. For several reasons –
a) If not, you will suffer financially
b) Keeping it does not increase your chances for reconciliation at all
c) Once you sold the house, and if she comes back, then you may want to chose to live in a different place anyway, simply to leave all that past behind you

<strong> Never mind a vacation or some other big ticket items like furniture (she will have half of it taken away). </strong>

Don’t know about the furniture – personally, I do not attach any emotions to it. I’d say, if she wants, she can have the lot. However, on the vacation side I’d know exactly what to do – go for it! Hey man, you deserved it. And take your daughter with you and have a real good time for a couple of weeks.

<strong>
She still controls my decisions, my thoughts, my day to day life. In the meantime, she has no resposibilities, no regards for our D, just faking a good time.
</strong>

Look, I also think 24x7 about our situation, about my wife, about what was, about what wasn’t, about what could have been etc etc etc – but I managed now to abstract myself enough from it so it doesn’t dictate my actions anymore. As I said before – it’s up to her now. You do what’s best for you (and your daughter). Your actions have of NO impact whatsoever upon her decision to come back to you. So: grieving, being angry, not understanding etc are absolutely OK – but doing things as a result of ‘what if’s’ is definitely not on, not healthy and not helpful.

Hey, the other day in the gym I spent half an hour with the boxing equipment (punching bags etc) – you wont believe how good that felt.

Nick, You're wonderful! Now I have a question to ask you...will you...will you marry me???

Seriously, Big Star, I'm in the similar sitch. My rented house went up for sale very soon after H moved out. Landlord had been waiting for us to build our own house. Now it looks clear I won't be part of the deal. Will H build a house with OW? Bad idea, for a number of reasons, but perhaps. He's not in his right mind on this one.

This was my home before we were married, and I'm trying to see if I can stay here. Buying the house is way, way beyond what I can afford right now. It would be a huge gamble.

Will my buying moving a separation farther along? I will need to get some sort of waiver from him to protect myself financially...bummer! I'm nervous about anything that emphasizes our increasing distance. But life moves on...

But in the end, this is my home and what I have left in this rubble. The home and 1-3 kids.

So I'm not unsympathetic at all to your situation. Do I want to buy and live on baked beans for the next three years? Well...in a way it's more fun than wondering what outrageous thing H is going to do next.

I think Nick is right on...but still, how do you feel about your house, Big Star? Belize sounds great to me...could you go for a bit?

Don't have much time to write this. May finish it later.

I hear you guys... hear you...

See, the question here is not the house. I may have exagerated about a crummy apartment. I lived in places no human being would, and adjusted. I need very little to survive. I need serenity right now. A hut in Ambergris Caye would do just fine. I am deprived of that. I cannot just go. My daughter needs me so much right now, I can't even think of going somewhere without her.
Here is a little something D wrote in her poetry class. It's a cinquain:

Nightmare
That's what I'm in
shivering cowardly
I pinch myself and hope it's just
A dream

Do you know how I feel reading this?

WW does everything for a blame fix, she even restricted our dance lessons during "her week" with D expecting me to go bananas. I, of course agreed to stop the lessons. She also threatened me with a custody battle. I know that she is bluffing, but I don't want to add any more twists to the situation for my D's sake.

If I sell the house, I will get a hefty sum of money tax free. Lots of ideas there. New Canon D10 would bring so much joy in my life. I am imagining all the pictures I can take in my travels, it makes me drull. Instead, I have to swallow whatever WW is throwing at me and my D. That's what I am tired of.

I am thinking that DV will put everytning in place. I know that my D will suffer, but at the same time it brings some form of stability for her as well.

To be continued...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by BigStar:
<strong>....Here is a little something D wrote in her poetry class. It's a cinquain:

Nightmare
That's what I'm in
shivering cowardly
I pinch myself and hope it's just
A dream

Do you know how I feel reading this? ....
To be continued...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow BigStar, your daughter can really cut to the chase. It sent shivers up my spine and it is over 80 degrees right now!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Our little ones can sure pack a punch. Yet the WS may be too much in the fog to even notice.

But you did and that's important right now for you and her. Let her know how much you love her and acknowledge her ability to put such power in her words. If you think it is right, let her know that her words meant a lot to others going through similar situations. You both are not alone and sometimes that is a comforting thought.

Take care and keep posting, you are becoming stronger and better.

L.

In continuation to the above...

Yes, DV looks now like a very logical outcome. I am not afraid of it. I know who I was and who I've become. All that fog babble about how I repell people, how worthless and undeveloped I am doesn't mean anything to me now. At the beginning it was a shock. You trust a person who you share your bed with. When WW told me how greatly she suffered because of me, it was very convincing. I beleived her that I am crazy. Now I know...

DV will bring me peace and misery to her. Do I care? Less and less...

Orchid, you're absolutely right, she didn't notice. She noticed the hight mark, but didn't bother reading. I know why. It drives a knife through her heart to admit that her D is suffering. Anything my D has to say is filtered through "you're feeding her". I am the guilty party once again.

Here are some more from the same batch if you don't mind reading them. They're not all that dark. You'll see she likes horses. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


Horses
Adoration
Is for you because you
Are the spirits that lift my heart
So sweet

you horse
Move as swiftly
As wind so wonderful
You are the beauty that conquers
the ground

Hyper
Yet you are sweet
Puppy, you race around
you play and run then stop to have
a nap

The woods
I am in now
Make me scared but the horse
I love is with me, comforting
Me well

My dream
is to be a
vet, a human who is
one with animals, treating them
with care

What fun
when we slide down
the hill of ice and snow
the rush of going down so fast
It's great....


BigStar

P.S.

Here are some pics from our last week-end. Don't pay attention to design.

http://www.xenia.ca/fun/wonderland.htm

<small>[ July 02, 2003, 11:14 PM: Message edited by: BigStar ]</small>

Big Star,

Thanks for sharing. You will eventually need to learn how to respond or when not to respond to such hurtful babble. In the A/fog, often the WS just can't help being stupid, inconsiderate, dumb, hurtful, etc. Just can't.

After a while, this kind of stuff gets old, even the pain of it gets old. Seeing what it does to our children though, never gets old. Like a fresh wound every time we see them get slapped by the A pain.

You are a dad, continue being the best dad you can. Doesn't mean buying her the world. Being the best dad you can be doesn't take a lot of $$ but does take a lot of love. This comes in many forms.

Your daughter is quite gifted in her writing. The one about 'the woods' was quite touching. Help her reach her goals but helping her recognize her gifts.

Our son is 8 now but was 5 @ d/d. He wrote a 4 sentence letter to his dad. 2 questions, 2 statements. Cut right to his dad's heart. Didn't make him come home right away but when he did, that letter came back in tact and is still in his dresser drawer. Even after that, our son will occasionally bring up a question and just cuts right to the chase. No if ands or buts. You know what? I am glad.

So don't stop your daughter from speaking her heart and mind out. If she can't tell her mom, then have her write it down. It can be therapy for your daughter. Never mind the impact on the WS. WS in the fog are dense anyway. Even they admit it (or at least the smartones do - LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ).

I liked the pictures. They look good to me!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Do you have your daughter in some sort of counseling?

Keep posting.

L.

<strong>
When WW told me how greatly she suffered because of me, it was very convincing. I beleived her that I am crazy. Now I know...
</strong>
Hey BigStar, you know what, I wrote *exactly* the same on my thread about half a year ago…Really scary, isn’t it. I certainly don’t recognise my wife anymore (well: haven’t seen her for a full month actually!), and I don’t want to be together with *that* person my wife has become.

<strong>
If I sell the house, I will get a hefty sum of money tax free. Lots of ideas there. New Canon D10 would bring so much joy in my life.
</strong>
By all means – go for it! Get yourself a nice apartment instead, where you and your daughter can live. If, by miracle, you’ll be together again with your wife, then you probably want to have a ‘fresh start’ somewhere anyway. Just carry out the material separation in all its aspects – it’s also good for you NOW as the less you have to share with your wife, the less she can throw a bucket of blame over your head.

Now, here’s a plan: Take it step by step. Sell the house. Carry out the material separation. Get your child rights notarised. From that point onwards, the only thing that links you and your wife is a piece of paper. Everything else will be settled, you have legal and financial security, a Canon D10 and, when you want, can fire the divorce dart at any point in time, which then only would be a formality. Would that work?

PS – I liked the website; always good to connect a face to a handle!

Thanks A.M.Martin, Orchid, Nick,

I started this thread to show my feelings. My other posts were from my mind. This one is from my heart. It helps once in a while to go emotional...

A.M.Martin,

to answer your question how do I feel about the house. It's dear to me. It is our first house. I renovated it all by myself. We both picked the colours. It is on a HUGE lot compared to the once you can only find outside the city. Most importantly it's walking distance from the school our D attends. It is imperative as she is in the gifted children programme. There aren't many schools that offer this programme around. My D really wants to have HER house, her room that she picked the colours for. So, YES, I would like to keep it.
Personally, I can see myself in an apartment in the heart of downtown Ottawa where "all the action is" with no problem. That is if I was single. I am not, I have a daughter and she is my first priority. I am the parent who is trying to play mom and dad at the same time untill her "real mom" gets her act together.

Orchid, you're so right about the wounds inflicted to our children. They have no say in this whole thing, they are innocent, yet they are the once who suffer the most. We want to protect them, it's one of the most basic instincts. And when the one who is supposed to protect them, hurts them, what do you do? We invented a play with her. Here are the rules and participants: 1. WW is "abducted". 2. She needs our help. 3. When we speak to mama, it's actually the alien we're interacting with. 4. OM is the one who is supporting the alien. When we talk about OM he is "he who must not be named". This way we maintain the good appearence of her mom (she is abducted and cannot be with us), at the same time being very frank about how we feel about things she is doing.

Gotta go.

To be continued...

My H was carried off by the Insect People, so I understand. The Black Widow has charge of him, with her daughter, the pretty Scorpion Lady. He has been taken to the Jungle Land, and is being held prisoner.

One possibility if you want to keep the house: exorcism. A friend in similar circumstances had an exorcism in her house, with a mutual friend taking the role of Father Grimaldi, and sprinkling rose petals in various rooms and corners of the house.

Mine was simpler: just have lots of dinners and parties -- especially two-level parties, one for you and one for your kid. Fill the house with new, fun memories. Make it a place of life and joy again, so it doesn't have the feeling of an abandoned shell. Ours doesn't, anymore!

Bigstar - I see now better where you're coming from. Sorry, I may have missed something. Are you or is your WW living in the house at the moment?

In any case, what comes first is that you stay in the neigbourhood - so that your daughter is close to school.

With regard to the emotional attachment to the place.... proceed as AM suggested, try & fill it with different, new, happy emotions. Maybe you can paint it a bit differently (and dont say, oh no, not again). it will make such a difference, I'm sure.

Would buying out your wife be a (financial) possibility?

If not, then what you're really saying is, that you cant divorce/legally separate AND live in the house all at the same time. In which case, a tough decision is coming up for you. Try and think about it that way.

In finance, there is a concept called “sunk cost”. This means, when you have done an investment, you should never look back , as you can’t recoup it. Example: you’ve invested a million bucks into shares, but the shares are now worth half a million and falling. Of course, it’s only human nature to think “bugger – they ARE worth a million, so let me just hold on and ride it out”. Wrong. The million is sunk and done. You have to look to the present and to the future. And that means, if half a million is the best you can get now, and for the foreseeable future, you should sell. Makes sense?

Now, taking this concept to relationships & emotions means, all the work you guys have done for the house is ‘sunk’. It’s done. If you have to sell the house, do it. Don’t think twice about the past (emotional) investment – you can’t get it back. Look forward and concentrate on creating and receiving joyous emotions now and in the future. These will all far outweigh your past emotions linked to the house.

AM,

Insect people??!?!?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Anything like the Medfly?!?!? LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

BigStar,
Once past the pain, you will settle (as I see you already are), to see your 'real' priorities (ie: your daughter). Life's decisions are much easier then.

Hope you all have a nice weekend.

L.