this is gonna be long so bear with me. and thanks in advance. im gonna start with the backround. i have been at this for 20 months. by most views i seem to have a good marriage. but i am thinking of giving up and want your opinions. i have been proded by some that i havent done all--i have done so much i cant even list it all cause you would be reading till next winter. LOL but i will try to summerize it. here goes...

d-day was dec 9 2001. husband had a 6 month(about) ea/pa. he confessed it to me because he wanted to hurt me in the worst possible way.(his words) they worked together. he continued to talk to her untill middle of jan. stopped contact immediately, but continued to e-mail and chat at work.

i had a brekdown(dont we all) and husband was good about supporting me, but never wanted to talk about what happened. finally got the details out of him and did en questionaires. we were on the road to recovery! i jumped in and did plan a to my fullest. never lovebusted or had angry outbursts. did a great plan a.

but i noticed i wasnt getting my needs met, and he wasnt talking or doing anything different. so we talked-well i did--to dr. harley. this was around late 2002. i followed all he suggested and kept plugging along. still nothing.

now dont get me wrong, to the outsider i had a great life. big house, nice cars, stuff..ya know. but those darn needs of mine....

so i kept plugging, reading and learning, until october of 2002. i wrote him a sudo plan b letter telling him again what i needed and how i wanted the needs met. that i couldnt live like this and we needed to do something or i would have to separate. i told him to get counseling and we would see. he talked to steve 1 time. i had a three month timer going on this and was waiting. after a week-he did nothing and everything went back to his normal. i didnt say anything because i layed it all out in the letter and he knew it all. so at the end of the three months-i asked him to leave. i told him i hadn't had the strength to live like this anymore. he cried and begged and we talked alittle. but he never left. he promised to do it all this time and i believed it. he called the next day for an appt with steve.

im thinking, wow, i finally got through. woohoo-recovery here we come!!

well he talked to steve twice, wrote a wonderfull letter taking responsibility for his affair and finally apologizing. a year later i finally get an im sorry! he has a plan all written down, per steve, and is gonna follow it. ask's me to write out, in very minute detail,(you know men) my needs and how i want them met. so i do, give it to him and he wants more detail!!WOW-i am impressed!!so i do this and it takes me days to do. this was in feb. of 2003. he never asked for the list until end of march.(shoulda been a clue) so i told him i had had it done for almost a month and he appologized for not asking for it sooner.(wow, progress huh) so i give it to him and we go over it and i ask if there is anything he is uncomfortable with. i also ask if there is anything on the list he doesnt want to do. nope, he is fine with it. off he goes and im smiling!!

well here we are in july of 2003 and all i got done from it was flowers twice, and my name put on the savings account. he did ask me on two dates on his own. all the other times we went out it was at my suggestion and planning.

now please understand i have begged, asked, talked and done everything i can think of and followed all the suggestions given here. to no avail. he will not do counseling, will not read a book, hasnt learned to communicate anybetter-we dont talk at all, other than to hear about his work--but he is plugging along just fine because i am still meeting all his needs and plan a-ing still.

so i sit here today and wonder-is there anything other than me separating and/or moving on to get out of the situation i am in.

and i re-read plan b. it is to separate the ws from the lover. so i referr to what i am thinking as separating rather than that, because i do not believe he is still in contact with her, just stubborn to teach himself something new.

so.........your thoughts???

You know something nikko, the more time passes by me the more I'm convinced that a deal breaker indicator (you can tell I'm an online trader <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ) to continue or to end a marriage is whether there is a committment on the part of BOTH spouses in following the principles embodied in The Four Rules For A Succesful Marriage. As obvious as it is, it bears reminding that marriage is a team effort, and it won't work if only one spouse is willing to commit by putting all the effort while the other sits and does nothing or very little. If you have followed the four rules for a succesful marriage and your FWH hasn't and isn't willing to do the same, then as far as I'm concerned you can walk away from the marriage without being haunted by any doubts as to whether you did your best to save the marriage. I know this doesn't sound very MBish but thats my opinion.

<small>[ July 06, 2003, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

nikko,

Regardless if there iis still contact or not, it is time to look into plan B. You have to decide, is this the new M you wanted ?. Some Martians need 2x4 on our head before we wake up. Plan A is not for forever.

-rh-

My therapist asked me to ask my H a very revealing question: "Are you willing to work on seeking happiness in and through the marriage, or do you want to remain married while seeking happiness outside the marriage?" That might be a good question for your H.

<small>[ July 06, 2003, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: broken heart and arm ]</small>

ahhh coffee man--you hit it right on the head. i have followed the rules and i dont even think he knows what they are. he doesnt meet my most important emotional needs. by doing this he is the biggest source of my pain, and i dont feel protected by any of it. now the honesty thing-i do believe if i ask, he will be honest for the most part. but im tired of having to do all the asking.

so i get what you are saying and its how i feel--thanks

dear redhat-thanks for being here.you've been with me since d-day <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

ive gone over plan b and to me it is the same as a separation at this point. time for a 2x4--thanks

dear broken-thanks for the reply and yes it is all to familiar to all of us. i agree with what you said and i think that is the direction i am going-but at the urgence of a few-i thought i would post this and see if anyone had any other ideas. thanks for the idea of the question--i may try it. i probably know the answer, he wants the marriage---he just doesnt want the work. lol

Nikko,

Been thinking about you for a while and wanted to write to you. I am sorry this is the state you feel. Boy have we been there and done that. I had to do less to get more around my home and in some ways it has improved. Not fully yet but getting there. Some trade offs were for doing less but that meant my anxiety of being on top of stuff had to take a back seat. Very hard for me to do. Like being patient.

I agree that you need to make the next move. What, when, where and how are critical.

IMHO, you need to write it out for you first. Then take the proverbial bull by the horns. Also it will help you put it all in perspective. I used to think I was very logical in my decisions but I always did even better when I put it in writing for me to review BEFORE I took a big step.

I have to deal with a personal family issue today (my cousin died last night) and so I will post back later.

If you want to, can you send me your e-mail addy at mborchid@hotmail.com

Thanks and hugz,
L.

Nikko-

I can so relate. My wh is also one willing to stay in the M, but he thinks that works while seperated and him living single life and having me too- when he wants..

Anyway, recovery is a real challenge. And a good marriage takes the work of 2. I too believe my wh is good at getting his needs met.. well maybe in that he finds givers... he does not give back on the same level, at least IMHO.

I like the question.. above- something about do you want to be in a happy marriage, or in a marriage where happiness in found outside the M?
GOOD QUESTION. I am thankful my H tries.. but sometimes trying does not a happy marriage make... it takes doing.

Just like if you just tried to work, you wouldn't get paid? Maybe he could understand a question like that in his own terms... don't know what turns you h on, or what motivates him.... but there was a nice letter.. I think maybe in Torn Asunder...a bout the bspouse being like an old car traded in for a new shiny one, but the new one wasn't as good as the old... this ws liked cars?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I know sometimes these martians are much diff. than us venusians.. but still... there has to be give and take to a happy M make.

My wh is a big retreater into the cave, this drives this venusian who needs to talk, be close and together INSANE - I even lb at times..... I have gotten that way under control, but lbs still rare their ugly heads in my life when I STUFF MY NEEDS 4 way 2long.

Anyway.... Do take care of you. Do what you can to make your life better even without him. Today I went thrift antiquing and I am happy with my purchases!... but do I want to get my needs met through shopping, NO? but it does help to do things for myself... I have been thinking for so long with seperated income that I can't do what I want with my house, but found today I can make small improvements even on budget. I have to brag I got an originally 5k wool rug for $65- not in bad shape at all!! WOW~

I do think he might try more as he has attempted to try before, your h that is, if given more of a chance. I personally do not think the seperation route is key, since it is so hard in my situation... to be seperated. Maybe M counseling? Maybe he would do that for you, ask again, maybe if the two of you find someone to go to on a regular weekly basis for at least 6 months to a year . Tell your h you want a happy marriage, do not criticize him, do this in love. I know that idea might not work, but I think the plan b.... is just grounds for more distance, silence and pain- not what you seem to want....?

Anyway, take care of you.

Hugs, H

<small>[ July 06, 2003, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: Honey ]</small>

Hi nikko

I'm one of those who doesn't think you have done it all it takes...

Now I'm not so sure about it. I mean you know a lot better than me what you have done or not to recover and to have those needs met.

I understand why you feel this way, and this road can be pretty bumpy. But in the end if you don't got your fuel (needs met also), it doesn't matter how much you want to run or for how long, there is a time you just can't go on like before.

You can't be the care taker in the relationship alone, and plan A for this long have wore you down. Do what you think is best for you, plan your future, plan B him, detach and see if he comes along and get the wake up call.

If not... well I think you already made your choice and you know what it's best for your future because it doesn't matter how hard we try or for how long we do it... If your partner doesn't want to commit, you can't have a M by yourself.

Good luck with any outcome I wish you the best outcome no matter the way it goes...

Take care

ORCHID--great to hear from you. e-mail me anytime-jmeyerpet@aol.com.
i like the idea about writing it out. and if you have any ideas of how or what i should do--i would love the input. thanks for being here since day one!

honey-thank you so much for the input and ideas. i know you have your own stuff going on right now-i am praying for you and your family. stay strong.

matilde--thanks for taking the time to read all this. i know you had your doubts, but i am working on it to make sure i do do all i can. im trying!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

nothing new here except this morning he said-"you fell asleep on me last night!"
now please understand he ignores me all day doing his things and stuff around the yard, showers, comes downstairs at 10:00pm, changes channel, starts watching new movie(notice he hasnt said two words to me) i hang around until ten of eleven, then just say goodnight and go to bed-he still doesnt say or do anything,small peck on cheek and im off to bed.

so his big plan was to jump me unexpectedly after his movie?? i shoulda known!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

at least im laughing. i told him, why didnt you say anything. he just shrugged. so i guess i should be ready tonight! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

ok-i am still checking here for all the sage ones to come out of the woodwork and comment on this! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> where the heck is everyone??

we all no patience isnt my top forte...... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Nikko,

So he 'jumped' you without your consent? Under most circumstances isn't this constitute rape?!?! Seriously..... why do men think talking is a chore instead of an R treat?

Mine doesn't like to talk either and it really irks me. uuuewhhh.... bad picture of Orchid with a <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> face - LOL!!! Yet when he does, it does sooo much for me. Women want their 'minds' tantalized.

One way I try to combat that is to do the same to him on a non R subject. Like I want him to move something or do something, I just start pushing him in that direction without saying a word. He got the picture. He has been working on his R vocabulary.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

About the list...... write what you want/need vs what you think he can do/has done/should do. Then ask him t/d the same. Think he is up to it? You can always make his multiple choice!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Then write out what you can do w/o your H. Be hoenst. You might be surprised. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

L.

<small>[ July 08, 2003, 10:29 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

orchid-he never actually jumped me-i was asleep-but that was his plan. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

i did the list thing allready-he never did on e for me-ive tried to get one repeatedly. i allso wrote out what he could do in minute detail(per steve) still nothing. i will do a list of the w/o him though.

he got home late last night again, we were supposed to have the fun time we missed the night before--he was too tired. ok so i get ready for bed. we go to bed and he wants me to wake him up early, he has to get the basement ready for poker night on saturday. so he asks if i have any appts. in the morning??HUH i havent had appts in a year. so i cannot lie and i tell him i do have an appt in the morning and i will be up very early. i am going to go see the cafe in town and talk to the landlord. i want to see what they have in the kitchen and see if it is feesible for me to consider opening it. he just looks at me and says oh--ok get me up before you go. and then closes his eyes and goes to sleep. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

he just finds out his wife is considering opening her own business and he has no comments, questions or anything????? you would think he would at least talk about this??

i just dont know. i have been wondering if he has been reading my posts here and on the other board. i keep getting that feeling. anyway that was my evening.