Thank you all for your kind thoughts and prayers, and first let me apologize for not coming back sooner - I didn't mean for the time to get away from me for so long. I still want to get back to Taxman, who was honest and kind enough to try to answer a question for me, and yes, I would like to continue the thread on "snapping" - I think there is a place for it - its something that comes up on other people's threads, and when it happens, the person who "snaps" gets lots of varying opinions on their behaviour from people who either have or haven't "snapped". Snapping can definitely be dangerous.

We just got the pathology report on my mother yesterday - she had a mastectomy on Monday and came through the surgery very well. She is amazing - was home in her own bed the same night and so far, has only taken 1 Tylenol for pain! They discovered cancer cells in 2 of the level 2 lymphnodes, so she has now faced up to having chemotherapy - she is just soldiering forward in her gently courageous, dignified way - what an example to me she is, as always. I am so proud of my mom! She will have a bone scan ASAP, and others soon as the doctors decide on what her treatment should be. She feels pretty confident right now - confident with her doctors and prepared to face the treatment.

I am feeling kinda tired, to tell you the truth. The last two years I think have taken a lot out of me, even though things are going really well for me right now, and H is very supportive. I just feel very fatigued and I have gone to my doctor - she says it would be normal for me to feel exhausted after everything that has happened the last 2 years, but shes doing some blood tests to check hormone levels, diabetes, thyroid, etc. I don't think its anything serious. I just think I'm feeling the backlash of long-term stress.

I'll come back on Sunday - hope to be a bit peppier by then.

Hope you are OK, ss - my garden got frost-burned last night! Tomatoes, squash, everything gone now! But we figure we did really well this year - H is dead keen now - we started this time last year - H and I were sleeping apart and barely speaking to each other. I fully expected to have to make my veg garden feed me and the boys after H and I separated. But look at us now! Gee - you can come a long way in a year if you just start trying to help each other.

All the best to my friends here,
see you soon,
LIR

Hi LIR,
It's always good to hear from you, I am glad there is hope for your mother. I admit, I was worried for both of you. I wonder how your H's parents are doing now. There are so many factors that can affect our relationships as H and W. Does your H understand that some of what you feel about your Mother comes out in your moods? I hope he can help you when worry weights you down.

I am feeling kinda tired, to tell you the truth. The last two years I think have taken a lot out of me, even though things are going really well for me right now, and H is very supportive. I just feel very fatigued and I have gone to my doctor - she says it would be normal for me to feel exhausted after everything that has happened the last 2 years, but she's doing some blood tests to check hormone levels, diabetes, thyroid, etc. I don't think its anything serious. I just think I'm feeling the backlash of long-term stress.

Some of us get really concerned when we read things like this. Please report that all is well. Long term stress can and does affect our health. I had ulcers from 17 years old - in fact, I fainted with loss of blood about a week after we were married ( I was 21) and W caught me before my head hit the floor. One day my doc told me I could either find a way to deal with it, or I could die. I said: "so, should I get a divorce, or commit suicide?" He laughed, but he told me to find a way, so I did. I used to work 12 to 14 hour days 6 days a week. Now I can usually hold it to 9 hours, and 5 days. I used to work long into the evening at home with projects, now I relax evenings and do the projects on Saturday or I leave them until I can do them. I used to say "yes" to everyone that asked me for help, now I look in my planner, and see it says "spend time with kids" and I say "sorry, I am busy that night." Some things we can't fix. Dealing with the A's in your marriage took a toll on your health, but I hope it is just stress, and believe if it is that you will get past it and regain your health.

I'll come back on Sunday - hope to be a bit peppier by then.

I Hope you were, and spent time with son or relaxing.
I am sorry, I try not to worry, but it is difficult when something may be wrong. I have been praying for you.

I am not always sure why thoughts come to me, or if I ought to develop them and post them. Sometimes it seems to me that I ought to leave some things alone, but........... but here goes anyway.

One of your worries from last year was getting over the anger. I wonder if you are through that difficult task yet, or if you are still being refined. It is more than just anger, sometimes it is pain, fear, stress, frustration - and not knowing how to deal with these, or not knowing that things will ever change. If you knew that in one or in two years your H would understand your feelings, apologize, and be a near perfect husband, you would be content to wait. You don't know, and the unknown is a difficult playing field.

I want to encourage you again to have hope. Hope and faith go together. It takes both of them to make that brighter future a reality. I don't believe you will ever give up - that you will stop growing or improving, but I want you to feel joy in the journey. I know that God is real. I know that he loves you - I believe you know that too, but that is not enough. Most of us have faith in God's ability to help, we don't know if he has reason to help us, or we wonder if what we want is what he is willing to give. Or in other words, we don't know if he is willing to do what we want him to do, and we sometimes lack faith that his way is the best way. Please understand that he is helping. Please have faith that his will help in the most helpful and least painful way he possibly can and still have you get the growth that is needed. I know that this is true, I want you to know it too.

Remember that this life is short when we think of timelines as being eternal. Sometimes I can almost imagine God watching me, and saying: "I know it hurts, but you will be all right, just trust me." Please know you can trust him. I can't tell you what events will take place in your life. I can promise that God will give you much joy if you continue to look to him for guidance, and if you will continue to do all you can to make things work. I can promise you that the joy will be much more than the pain, and you will look back and be glad for the experience.

Hope you are OK, ss - my garden got frost-burned last night! Tomatoes, squash, everything gone now! But we figure we did really well this year - H is dead keen now - we started this time last year - H and I were sleeping apart and barely speaking to each other. I fully expected to have to make my veg garden feed me and the boys after H and I separated. But look at us now! Gee - you can come a long way in a year if you just start trying to help each other.

Well, I don't want you to think that I see your life as all darkness. I know you have happy times. What I said above is meant to help with that little edge of bitterness that never quite leaves you alone. One day it will be gone - you will wake up and realize that you have left it behind.

The garden is doing??
Well, some of it is good, some not so good. Last year we had first frost on Dec 6th. The tomatoes never did do very well this year, we have some big ones coming on but they are still green. Cooler weather revives them but then it takes time for them to get ripe. We have been getting squash again, but only two plants are left out of about 14, so it is sparse. The peppers have gone wild, and we get regular green bell peppers, Anaheim peppers (often called green chilies in the US) jalapeno, and yellow banana peppers that are great on salads and sandwiches. My W freezes them and we use them year round. She also makes big batches of chilie verde (pork and green chilies) and freezes it for later use. I planted the winter garden a few weeks ago. Beets, turnips, onions, and spinach all grow through the winter here, unless we get a really cold year. Last bad one was about 15 years ago, so another is about due, but it usually works. Everything is up about an inch but the onions. The dwarf peach tree did really good, and the peaches were large and excellent quality, but the almond tree died this summer and I have no idea why. We got about 3 Gals of (un shelled) nuts before it died. The grapes did really good, just finishing the last of the concord grapes now.

Your comments about bashing some WS that come here were very well done. You have great ability to help others. Be careful that you don't spend time that you don't have - especially in light of your health, but never be afraid of commenting when you have feelings about something. You have so much insight, don't be afraid to use it.

See you later.

SS

Hi ss -

It's 9 o' clock here and H has gone out, so I am going to take a quick chance to post to you. It is hard to get time on the computer, as always with me, but I have decided that that gives me more time to think - I hope you know that I appreciate you still looking out for me, sometimes you make me think, and I meditate on things for a few days before I feel like I have something to say, so please don't ever think I have ignored your kindness in looking in on me.

What you say is true - I do still feel there are "things" in our M which remain "unhealed" - trust and honesty. By trust I mean having the trust that you can talk openly about something peacefully and with respect, and not have it end in a nasty power struggle. I still don't have that sense of safety - emotional safety, yet. Honesty - knowing that we are committed to being honest with each other. This is still not 100% sure in my mind - I still worry that he operates 1% on the "what she doesn't know can't hurt her" principle. He still has his private e-mail account. I still don't like this, but I haven't felt it was right yet to bring it up. I have just been praying that God will help to restore trust in our M together.

And so today, "buddy" came up in casual conversation. Remember "buddy" has gone back to his home country? I don't know how much e-mail communication H has with "buddy" now, but I expect it's some. I forget how his name came up, but it did, then H said "but you don't like "buddy" anyway, do you? I don't know what your problem with him is, he's a good guy!" I said "You're right, I don't like "buddy", but its not me who has a problem with him, its him who had a problem with me. I don't understand the hostility he showed to me. I still find that confusing." We dropped the subject. Later in the day, I thought, well, I'll take a chance, so I remembered that I need to prepare him about when I want to talk about something. I went to where he was in the house, and I said, in a non-confrontational way, "Maybe sometime, we could talk about "buddy", peacefully. I still feel confused by what happened there and I would feel better if I could talk about it with you." H said that he didn't know what there was to talk about, that we had already talked about it. I said that I had started to talk about it with him, but I had not shared with him everything I felt about it, and I still felt confused about some things to do with it, that maybe being able to talk to him about it would help me." He didn't respond. He had to go get YS from school, so he left, but cheerfully - didn't get mad or anything.

So we had a good afternoon - I went to the veg garden and did a little work, which ALWAYS makes me feel better, and took YS to swimming. When I got home, H had actually MADE DINNER! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Then he said later, that he was going out at 9, to meet with his counselor - wow! - he said his counselor was back from his summer hols. I asked if he was still seeing him and he said yes, he thought it was a good idea to go on seeing him regularly "from time to time". Then he asked me if I was "seeing anyone on a weekly basis". I said no, but if I found someone I felt I could talk to, I wouldn't be averse to doing that, as well. He suggested I go to the local convent - and find a nun to talk to. So I'm kind of sitting here a little blown away. I am glad he's still seeing someone - taking the initiative. I do wonder what's going on in his mind. I hope someday he can trust me enough to share with me.

I worry about trying to talk to him about "buddy", but I also feel the need to combat evil - "buddy"'s influence was evil, I'm convinced of that, especially after reading through M. Scott Peck's "People of the Lie" again. I have just decided to pray that God will put the words in my mouth before I say anything about him. I don't want to point the finger at "buddy" - its my H who has to make the decision to behave differently from the way "buddy" advised him to be with me.

So that's where I'm at tonight. I would like to talk more - I am OK - I haven't got any test results back yet, and yes, I still feel tired, but I am doing OK as well. My mom is doing great - amazing - she is so wonderful, just so...well, amazing in the way she approaches things. H's mom is also doing better - I'm sure that helps H, too. Lots of good - patiently working on, and praying with God about trust and growth in our R.

Do you think I have approached this in the right way, ss? I don't want to end up in the state we did last year, when I tried to "work" on things and ended up exploding at him. That was my fault as much as his. Hopefully I have learned to be more diplomatic. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Gotta go - no hot water, no heating, so going to get in bed with the electric blanket. Boiler is supposed to get fixed tomorrow. Fingers crossed.

Take care and thank you.
LIR

Hi LIR, good to be back-

......... I hope you know that I appreciate you still looking out for me, sometimes you make me think, and I meditate on things for a few days before I feel like I have something to say, so please don't ever think I have ignored your kindness in looking in on me.

Actually, I was feeling I ought to apologize for being so late getting back to you. I thought I would give you some space - I think I understand many of your feelings and concerns about posting here. It is hard to know exactly what will help others best, and that is the intent of coming here, so I delay a little. If I ever fail to get back to you at all, that means something happened to me, or that I don't know there is a pending post to respond to, not that I am avoiding you. Promise. Oh, shoot, you know what I mean. Same thing as what you said. Do I talk too much?


What you say is true - I do still feel there are "things" in our M which remain "unhealed" - trust and honesty. By trust I mean having the trust that you can talk openly about something peacefully and with respect, and not have it end in a nasty power struggle. I still don't have that sense of safety - emotional safety, yet. Honesty - knowing that we are committed to being honest with each other. This is still not 100% sure in my mind - I still worry that he operates 1% on the "what she doesn't know can't hurt her" principle. He still has his private e-mail account. I still don't like this, but I haven't felt it was right yet to bring it up. I have just been praying that God will help to restore trust in our M together.

I still pray for you both. Emotional healing is a process, not quick, like a broken arm or something. It is as much learning as it is healing. You learn about how his mind works, you adapt to that, you change your way of communicating so as to promote healing, lessen pain. He responds with love, you heal little more, hurt a little less. See, I'm there with you, with everyone else here that learns how to do this. Have you seen 2long lately, the man has talent. Recovered from a 13 year A by learning what to do, and doing it so well his W couldn't resist. It's a good lesson for me.

I could talk about the 1% you speak of, but - I don't know - right now, positive seems best from this end. I will say your H is a bit of a cake eater. I don't believe he would let you keep secrets as he does. That is, if you had been secretly mailing men and saying the same things as he did, I think all (insert common word for hades) would break loose. So, still needs work, but I worry about that part for you, so you can put your effort into worrying about something else instead. That should make it any easier for you. You can laugh, - laughter is STILL good for you.


And so today, "buddy" came up in casual conversation. Remember "buddy" has gone back to his home country? I don't know how much e-mail communication H has with "buddy" now, but I expect it's some. I forget how his name came up, but it did, then H said "but you don't like "buddy" anyway, do you? I don't know what your problem with him is, he's a good guy!" I said "You're right, I don't like "buddy", but its not me who has a problem with him, its him who had a problem with me. I don't understand the hostility he showed to me. I still find that confusing." We dropped the subject. Later in the day, I thought, well, I'll take a chance, so I remembered that I need to prepare him about when I want to talk about something. I went to where he was in the house, and I said, in a non-confrontational way, "Maybe sometime, we could talk about "buddy", peacefully. I still feel confused by what happened there and I would feel better if I could talk about it with you." H said that he didn't know what there was to talk about, that we had already talked about it. I said that I had started to talk about it with him, but I had not shared with him everything I felt about it, and I still felt confused about some things to do with it, that maybe being able to talk to him about it would help me." He didn't respond. He had to go get YS from school, so he left, but cheerfully - didn't get mad or anything.

It is still hard for you to talk about some things. You seem to do really well, and your advice on this forum is so well thought out that it is hard to imagine that you ever wonder if you can do these conversations. It is hard when it only ourselves - with no time to think or respond carefully as we do here.

" Well, I don't understand some of my feelings with regard to "buddy" and I wanted to talk to you to help me understand some of his anger, and to see if you can help me see the big picture so I can do better in the future in conversations with others. Please talk to me, this is important to me."

Anytime you can talk to him it and explain your side, it should help him come back a little bit to your side of things - to understand and emphasize with you more. It is good to push sometimes when things need to be resolved.

So we had a good afternoon - I went to the veg garden and did a little work, which ALWAYS makes me feel better, and took YS to swimming. When I got home, H had actually MADE DINNER!

I read a post from star*fish on JFO where she says she had to quit plan A, and begin to negotiate for her needs to be met. It is on Ginger's thread - actually the poster name is Group Effort posted at Oct 21st 9:01 PM.


Star*fish on ending plan A and asking for help.

I believe you are doing this more than you ever have, but could you do more, and is it worth a try? Your taker needs help some days, and we have discussed that before. Most of the bad vibes that come to me when I think about your marriage are that you still give more than you get. Long term, bad thing.


Then he said later, that he was going out at 9, to meet with his counselor - wow! - he said his counselor was back from his summer hols. I asked if he was still seeing him and he said yes, he thought it was a good idea to go on seeing him regularly "from time to time". Then he asked me if I was "seeing anyone on a weekly basis". I said no, but if I found someone I felt I could talk to, I wouldn't be averse to doing that, as well. He suggested I go to the local convent - and find a nun to talk to. So I'm kind of sitting here a little blown away. I am glad he's still seeing someone - taking the initiative. I do wonder what's going on in his mind. I hope someday he can trust me enough to share with me.

So, any progress with that? I sincerely hope so. You could ask there too: "So, share with me things that you talk to your counselor about that I can help with - I am not trying to pry, but I love you and want to help."

Maybe it's chancy, but I have tried lots of things I didn't think would work, to be amazed sometimes that it did work. I continue to try things all the time - and continue to be surprised.


I worry about trying to talk to him about "buddy", but I also feel the need to combat evil - "buddy"'s influence was evil, I'm convinced of that, especially after reading through M. Scott Peck's "People of the Lie" again. I have just decided to pray that God will put the words in my mouth before I say anything about him. I don't want to point the finger at "buddy" - its my H who has to make the decision to behave differently from the way "buddy" advised him to be with me.

Those words will come. Sometimes we have to begin the conversation not knowing, but they will come. One part faith, one part courage, sometimes yields 10 parts improvement. I do think you need to be careful, and you need to feel your way along, making sure that positive feeling continues with each new thought that comes to you as you talk, but I think you can do this. Again, when you bring up "buddy" make it about your feelings. You are uncomfortable, you are hurt, you need help understanding, and so on. Not that "buddy said this, or did that." Ask H for help for you, and your feelings. It is you he loves, and is willing to help.


So that's where I'm at tonight. I would like to talk more - I am OK - I haven't got any test results back yet, and yes, I still feel tired, but I am doing OK as well. My mom is doing great - amazing - she is so wonderful, just so...well, amazing in the way she approaches things. H's mom is also doing better - I'm sure that helps H, too. Lots of good - patiently working on, and praying with God about trust and growth in our R.

It is so slow sometimes - and so hard to know why we can't just turn a switch and have them (spouse) understand. I suppose if it was that easy then we wouldn't get refined. Sometimes I wish he'd turn down the heat for just a few days. Ah, well, life is still good. Just busy. Glad your Mom was well when you wrote this, and H's mom too.

Do you think I have approached this in the right way, ss? I don't want to end up in the state we did last year, when I tried to "work" on things and ended up exploding at him. That was my fault as much as his. Hopefully I have learned to be more diplomatic.

Yes! I do think you are doing this the right way. By now, you may have it done, and be in marital bliss. (you can smile again.) Learn to negotiate for your needs to be met, whether that is communication, openness, honesty, financial disclosure, or night time lovin. You are getting better, and he is responding much more nicely. Please don't be afraid things will blow up.

I have also worried about the cost to you long term for the improvements made to date. I have to think God will look after you with that. I have faith that he will.


Gotta go - no hot water, no heating, so going to get in bed with the electric blanket. Boiler is supposed to get fixed tomorrow. Fingers crossed.

I hate things like that, it is so "real life", and it takes so much time to deal with when I want to do other things. All part of the fire, isn't it. Hope that one is long since taken care of.


Let me know about your mother - for some reason she has been on my mind lately.

Later Edit:
You have not come back and said how your tests went. I must assume (and I hope) that all is well healthwise. Your comments to others show your wisdom, you should continue to help as you are able. All the best today.

SS

<small>[ November 03, 2003, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Dear ss - I owe you an apology for not coming back to at least say thank you for all the consideration you gave to my last post. I am truly sorry. I read it and went away to "think on things" and I just thought and thought - at the same time, I retreated into myself, I think, mainly because I have just been doing a lot of waiting to find out about my mom - it has taken a month of her having appts with her oncologist, scheduling tests, getting the test results, another appt, etc. - seems to have taken a month to do what I thought should have been done for her within a week, back in August, and I am not happy about that. Nevertheless, that's not an excuse for not at least saying thank you. Please forgive me for being thoughtless when you put so much time into your last post.

Everything you said was spot on. Yes, there is still a lack of trust on my part. But the only way to even begin to overcome that is if I am brave enough to start trying to communicate with him about the things that bother me, even if I am scared to. When he was involved in his EA's, he was terrible, and his reactions were very scary for me. But since my last post, I think we are making progress. We went on holiday for a week, took the boys to France and Belgium, a driving around vacation for 5 days. We had such a nice time, although the first two days, tensions surfaced between us - its the same old thing - same old problems which got us into trouble in the first place. But I think I was able to handle my part a little better - being forthright without flying off the handle and LB'ing, or blowing it out of proportion. YS persistently wouldn't wear his jacket, even though the temperature was freezing and he was on antibiotics for a chest infection. H wouldn't support me in insisting that he keep his jacket on. Finally I got tough with YS, and zipped him into it forcefully, scolding him about it. H said it wasn't necessary to yell at him, and I said that what would be most helpful would be if he would help me by supporting me in my efforts to keep our son well. I pointed out that every time I had told YS to keep his jacket on, that H had physically turned and walked away, making it looked like he disapproved of my reasonable demands. It was no wonder YS disobeyed me if he was under the impression that his Daddy thought I was being unreasonable. H said he was sorry, that he didn't realize he was doing that. This is the kind of problem we have, with H reacting subconsiously because of the effects of his childhood.

On another occasion, H got mad at me because he was lost. I was in the back seat, without the map, and H wasn't sure which way to go - he made some snide comment about not getting any help from the back seat. I said that was unreasonable - he blew and got out of the car, saying he didn't come all this way to fight with me. I said if he didn't want a fight with me, he shouldn't start one. End of conversation. After that, we had a great time together, and he didn't indulge in any more of taking out his frustrations on me.

We have also had two other conversations since we have been back - where we had misunderstandings and I have tried to talk about them, and we have sorted things out. So I feel we are starting to be able to talk again, and that's a good sign. Like you said, healing is a slow process and a learning process. It is slow, but there is reason to go forward.

Now, I'm just going to be brief, or I will start to cry a lot. But yesterday, we got the results of my mom's bone scan. She has stage 4 bone cancer - cancer cells in various parts of her body - spine, sternum, left femur, rib. There isn't a cure at this stage, so its a question of treatment to try to slow the growth of any tumours, and radiation to alleviate pain, when/if she needs it. She will be taking a hormone blocker, and also something to strengthen the bones. The doctor said she might have 2-3 years. I can't help but be sad at the thought of losing her. But she is a wonderful person - after all that she has been through, and I mean, her story could top a lot of the stories on this board, she still said to me yesterday "I've had a good life". My mother is the embodiment of the word charity. My heart hurts at the thought of losing her, but also because I love her so much. I realize that I have been extraordinarily lucky to have a mother such as her, and I am thankful for every day of her life. I really can't say more.

I also need to say that I have a hard time coming to MB these days. I hope that some time in the future, I will be able to offer more support to the people who need help, but part of my own recovery is to not come here too often. I have to not obsess on betrayal and coming here revives that in me. I have learned an enormous amount from MB, as much from lurking, as from posting, and I believe I now have skills and awareness that I lacked before in my life. I have learned things which will help me to protect myself, which I had not managed to learn anywhere else in my life, until I came to MB. For that I have to thank everyone who posts here, sharing their stories, and to all those people who shared with me, and posted to me, trying to help. A huge thank you to all of you.

I have a special thanks and apology to Taxman, who posted to me once, on my request. I will get back to him personally to apologize.

I won't go away forever, but I won't be around as much.

I have to go now, but I am grateful for all your prayers.

ss - I'll always remember you, and I hope someday to be able to introduce you to H. Thanks especially for all the times you made me laugh! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Blessings to you all.
LIR

Dear ss - I owe you an apology for not coming back to at least say thank you for all the consideration you gave to my last post. I am truly sorry.

I think about you often, but I don't worry as much as I once did. I try to take the long view of things - we are eternal beings, now in a short testing period. The test is difficult, and real. A great deal hinges on the result - and I expect you to do well. If you are away from MB for a time, or if you never came back, I have faith someday we will meet in another place.
I hope it is enough to say I understand, and I have never had hard feelings over who posts when - you should smile, even laugh. I am laughing. I enjoy your posts, but I don't feel you owe me at all. Please relax about that.

I read it and went away to "think on things" and I just thought and thought - at the same time, I retreated into myself, I think, mainly because I have just been doing a lot of waiting to find out about my mom - it has taken a month of her having appts with her oncologist, scheduling tests, getting the test results, another appt, etc. - seems to have taken a month to do what I thought should have been done for her within a week, back in August, and I am not happy about that. Nevertheless, that's not an excuse for not at least saying thank you. Please forgive me for being thoughtless when you put so much time into your last post.

I worry more about you, and about your Mom. Though you will see her after she leaves this life, it is hard to be separated, hard to be without a best friend and advisor. I know that you will make your way all right, I grieve for the difficulty and darkness of the path and your feelings as you walk it without her. That's what Husbands are for, and I hope yours can, and will step up and care for, and protect you.


Everything you said was spot on. Yes, there is still a lack of trust on my part. But the only way to even begin to overcome that is if I am brave enough to start trying to communicate with him about the things that bother me, even if I am scared to. When he was involved in his EA's, he was terrible, and his reactions were very scary for me. But since my last post, I think we are making progress. We went on holiday for a week, took the boys to France and Belgium, a driving around vacation for 5 days. We had such a nice time, although the first two days, tensions surfaced between us - its the same old thing - same old problems which got us into trouble in the first place. But I think I was able to handle my part a little better - being forthright without flying off the handle and LB'ing, or blowing it out of proportion.

By now, you realize this will take years. Some couples never understand where to start. You have an example in H's parents. Neither one of them understands, they make no progress. Things with them do not change or improve. In one way, you should thank the EA's for a start for you. Or at least find a silver lining in the cloud. You know things that have helped you grow immensely. You have a chance now - you have a very good chance to make a change and get out of the bad behaviors that we often have from our youth. What a great gift you have been given. God must love you very much to lead you to this place. I am so happy with YOUR progress. I so hope your H will come with you. I realize he still doesn't understand, but with help from a loving wife, he may yet come. What a great chance you are giving him !


YS persistently wouldn't wear his jacket, even though the temperature was freezing and he was on antibiotics for a chest infection. H wouldn't support me in insisting that he keep his jacket on. Finally I got tough with YS, and zipped him into it forcefully, scolding him about it. H said it wasn't necessary to yell at him, and I said that what would be most helpful would be if he would help me by supporting me in my efforts to keep our son well. I pointed out that every time I had told YS to keep his jacket on, that H had physically turned and walked away, making it looked like he disapproved of my reasonable demands. It was no wonder YS disobeyed me if he was under the impression that his Daddy thought I was being unreasonable. H said he was sorry, that he didn't realize he was doing that. This is the kind of problem we have, with H reacting subconsciously because of the effects of his childhood.

My W and I are just beginning to understand some of these things. (and I have said this every month since I found MB.) We point them out to each other and try and understand why we do them, and how to change ourselves. The good thing is that you talked to him !! You did !! I am so excited for you.

On another occasion, H got mad at me because he was lost. I was in the back seat, without the map, and H wasn't sure which way to go - he made some snide comment about not getting any help from the back seat. I said that was unreasonable - he blew and got out of the car, saying he didn't come all this way to fight with me. I said if he didn't want a fight with me, he shouldn't start one. End of conversation. After that, we had a great time together, and he didn't indulge in any more of taking out his frustrations on me.


I still do these types of things some days. It is a habit, that I sometimes do without realizing until it is pointed out to me. Granted, it is a lot less, and I almost often catch myself after I have spoken a few words, but I still start it too often. You are finding ways to set boundaries but still diffuse the situation and make peace. I believe those in heaven that look out for you are very happy with you now days. I know I am proud of where you are now, compared to say - a year ago. I realize it is still hard, and that it takes energy to do what you do. I continue to pray for you that you may be able to continue. Both health wise, and emotion wise. I have faith that you will do continue, and do well.

We have also had two other conversations since we have been back - where we had misunderstandings and I have tried to talk about them, and we have sorted things out. So I feel we are starting to be able to talk again, and that's a good sign. Like you said, healing is a slow process and a learning process. It is slow, but there is reason to go forward.

I continue to steer our conversations also. I can see where my anger came from - my W has things that she also needs to work on. Some of them very hard to cope with, but with understanding comes renewed hope. I have no doubt we will do well long term. Heck, we are doing well in the short term. I am learning not to take things she says or does as an attack on me personally. It is just a bad habit that she has, that we can work through. I sometimes wonder why,. with all I know, why can't this go faster? I realize it's part of life, and I am happy most days anyway. Life is good when we make progress, even it is slow progress. I am so glad you see progress.

Now, I'm just going to be brief, or I will start to cry a lot. But yesterday, we got the results of my mom's bone scan. She has stage 4 bone cancer - cancer cells in various parts of her body - spine, sternum, left femur, rib. There isn't a cure at this stage, so its a question of treatment to try to slow the growth of any tumours, and radiation to alleviate pain, when/if she needs it. She will be taking a hormone blocker, and also something to strengthen the bones. The doctor said she might have 2-3 years. I can't help but be sad at the thought of losing her. But she is a wonderful person - after all that she has been through, and I mean, her story could top a lot of the stories on this board, she still said to me yesterday "I've had a good life". My mother is the embodiment of the word charity. My heart hurts at the thought of losing her, but also because I love her so much. I realize that I have been extraordinarily lucky to have a mother such as her, and I am thankful for every day of her life. I really can't say more.

I said enough about that above, but you can count on continued prayers for you all - your Mother, you, your H, and your boys.

I also need to say that I have a hard time coming to MB these days. I hope that some time in the future, I will be able to offer more support to the people who need help, but part of my own recovery is to not come here too often. I have to not obsess on betrayal and coming here revives that in me. I have learned an enormous amount from MB, as much from lurking, as from posting, and I believe I now have skills and awareness that I lacked before in my life. I have learned things which will help me to protect myself, which I had not managed to learn anywhere else in my life, until I came to MB. For that I have to thank everyone who posts here, sharing their stories, and to all those people who shared with me, and posted to me, trying to help. A huge thank you to all of you.

I have not had the experience you have had, and it hurts me too. I see many leave for the same reasons you discuss. Please don't feel bad - your family and your life with them SHOULD come first. You know it should, so please understand you are doing the right thing. The people that know you and care about you will naturally miss you - but sometimes that happens to us. I am very happy for you and the good I see in your future. I am happy for your boys, and the gift they have been given by the continuation of your marriage.


I won't go away forever, but I won't be around as much.
I have to go now, but I am grateful for all your prayers.

ss - ..................I hope someday to be able to introduce you to H. Thanks especially for all the times you made me laugh!

I always enjoy reading your posts, but I am not sorry to see you go, if that means you are growing out of the need to be here. Someday I hope to meet both of you - it would give me great pleasure to speak with you. I'll leave you to figure out how to introduce us.

Now, what would you do if I said I was coming by your village next week?

Take care of your Mother emotionally - she needs you right now as much as you have needed her over the years.

SS

<small>[ November 19, 2003, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Just when I thought everything was going so well. Deep in my heart, I knew H had not changed, and I had it confirmed tonight.

First, thank you ss, for all your thoughts and prayers. So many times (and at this time in my life, its one of them) it feels like prayer is the only thing we can do to help another, even though we want to step in and be able to do something active. My mother is doing so well - emotionally and spiritually, she is stellar - and a tremendous example to me of charity. I hope that when my time comes, I will be able to face my Maker with the same humility she does, and be able to say that I was charitable in the face of betrayal and humiliation, the way she has been.

I am also praying for my friend, William - he is my age, and a friend of 20 years, married with three small boys - he found out he has kidney cancer in July - he was operated on, and given radiation therapy, but his latest scan shows the cancer growing back, and it has now spread to his lungs, and is aggressive. He is about to embark on aggressive chemotherapy. I know that I will have to say good bye to my mother soon, but I am praying for a complete recovery for William - with God, all things are possible.

H exploded at me tonight, just when I thought things were going so well. Its hard to know what to say. I don't know why - well, I do know what "pushed his buttons", as he put it, but it shows that our "problems" are all there in full force, the same as ever. Rather, his problems - because his reaction to whatever it was he took offense at, was unreasonable, outrageously aggressive, frightening, and unacceptable, as always. Its just now I see it more clearly. And its all still there. The potential for this type of explosion lurks right there beneath the surface.

What happened?

I came home from taking OS back to church, where he had to sing for a service. H was in the kitchen, frantically cooking - he had decided to make a curry (great! he makes great curries - I was looking forward to it). He was fussing and fuming because YS had accidentally poked the cuff of his shirt with enamel paint, when he was painting his model boat. I know H was frustrated at the fact that there was a spot of paint on his cuff and that he had tried to get it off and not succeeded - I can appreciate that he was frustrated - but it was an accident on YS's part, not intentional, and I was happy to try to get the paint stain off. In my opinion, H has been "getting angry" at small things for a few weeks now - the other night he exploded at a telephone salesman (who likes telephone sales at dinner time, but we don't all explode at them for 15 minutes) - he exploded at the Immigration Officer who checked our passports we we came into Dover at the end of our holiday two weeks ago - he has just been generally grumpy and grousing - and he exploded when I said that I didn't understand why he has been getting so angry lately. As far as H is concerned, he is not "getting angry at everything all the time", he is normal, and the way he reacts to people is normal - I, of course, am over-critical, and the problem is all mine. In other words, there's nothing wrong with me, its you and the rest of the world, and he won't even discuss it. If he were "normal", though, he wouldn't explode, he would say "I'm sorry if what I'm doing is bothering you, why don't we talk about it?" and show some respect for my feelings.

What was it "I" said that bugged him. OK - I said, kindly, "it's not a good idea anyway, to try to cook curry, or to paint in a white shirt" - not the best thing to say, but you know, its the kind of relentlessly paternal/maternal comment that he does to me many times a day - reminding me to put the lids on things, and turn light switches off, to wipe down the bathroom walls, etc. etc. etc. But if anyone does it to him - INSTANT defensiveness.

"Why are you getting so angry?" I said.
"There's no need for you to criticize me"

Well - I admit that it wasn't good - but in the back of my mind, I don't like the way he has been getting at YS.

I tried to move the subject on to the way we communicate - he got more angry. Finally I said, this shows that we still have problems communicating - because he had just point blank told me to "go away" in a contemptuous tone of voice. I said that we should be able to talk to each other about the way we relate to each other, with respect. "No. No. No. You're doing it again. You see - here you go - this is a wind-up - here you go, this is you starting all over again."
I said "I have tried to get us to go to marriage counselling four times in the last 3 years and it is you who has walked out and exploded, or refused to contine each time."
Explosion.
"HOW CAN YOU STAND THERE AND SAY THAT???!!! AFTER EVERYTHING I'VE BEEN THROUGH??? I SPENT FOUR MONTHS DRAGGING THROUGH FILTH, AND FOR WHAT? I DREW A LINE UNDER ALL THAT AND YOU ARE NOW GOING BACK TO THAT ALL OVER AGAIN! I CAN'T DEAL WITH THIS!"
On and on and on. YS is crying and by now is standing next to Daddy begging Daddy to stop shouting. H keeps yelling. I did not yell, or even answer back, except to say that it was him who was doing the shouting, and that he had to take responsibility for himself, that I wasn't intimidated by him. H stormed from room to room screaming about how he had "tried" counselling, but that I wasn't prepared to listen to what the counselor had said, that I had "been told" not to "do this" when YS was in the house (?) but that I obviously had not changed at all, that the problem was not him, but me...on and on and on.
Finally I took YS upstairs to him room and told him to stay there, that I would be back. H followed me and stood outside the room, glaring at me. I went downstairs, and he calmed down.
H is sick. H is abusive. H has got to change. I have lived the last 9 months on an even keel with him, because I have not "pushed his buttons". Tonight I dared to say what I thought and felt, and that's the kind of reaction I get. My goal has been to get YS into the choir so that he can join his brother in boarding school, and that is now accomplished, at least I know that YS will be taken care of, starting in Sept 04.

I am a lot stronger than I was 2 years ago, but I still hurt. I still want to go to MC with H, and after he had calmed down, I suggested that again. When he left tonight, he hugged me and said "sorry about that, but you have got to not push my buttons". I hugged him back and said "No. YOU have got to not allow your buttons to be pushed. That is YOUR responsibility".

I will still go to MC with H if he wants to - but if he wants to be done, I am fine with being done. Life is too short. I need to get myself in a more solid financial position. And I am thinking of my children, too - I will do whatever I can to save this marriage, but there may come a time when I am done, too. I just don't know right now. Right now I am just so unhappy.

LIR

(((((((LIR)))))) was thinking about you tonight, as I just got back from Cuba this week and was going to e-mail you to see how you are.

I am so sorry that this situation has arisen. I am sure that SS will have some insightful comments to make, and I am sorry I am not very adequate when it comes to that.

I just wonder, it sounds so much like Pound Man - all the time you would go along agreeing and nodding like a poodle life would be fine. Heaven forbid you disagreed or wanted to make a comment that didn't coincide. I wonder whether your H really wants to change, or even believes that he has. I think he probably does think he has changed which is even more concerning.

I am glad to hear your Mum is fighting. I think you take after her alot, but so sorry to hear your latest sad news about your friend.

Please please feel free to mail me or call if you need to.

Lisa

Hello LIR,

I happened to check in a few days ago and caught the update through your and ss's discussions. (Hello, ss.) Then I saw today's post. It is disappointing, to say the least.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">he hugged me and said "sorry about that, but you have got to not push my buttons". I hugged him back and said "No. YOU have got to not allow your buttons to be pushed. That is YOUR responsibility".
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Boy is that so totally characteristic of an abusive person to blame the other person for HIS outburst. You should really be proud of yourself for your response. You truly are a stronger woman. Good for you. Two years ago, you would have accepted that blame. Now you know who is really at fault.

You said that H has got to change, but what is the realistic hope for that? The good news is that YOU have changed, and that is what will enable you to cope with what you have to do to protect yourself and the boys.

Is there a chance that you will get to see your mother anytime soon? It always impresses me to see people deal stoicly with difficult situations. (My mom had no time to tie up loose ends following her mastectomy. The surgeon made a mistake and punctured her lung while implanting her chemo shunt, and she died a few days later. It was exactly two weeks from the day I first learned of her cancer to the day of her death.)

We had a record high of 81 degrees F here today. Strange for late November, but things are about to change with a cold front that will bring high winds and lower nightime temps to the mid 20s tomorrow night, our first freeze.

D, S ,and GS will be here for Thanksgiving. I'm looking forward to that.

xDIL and OM #2 will be getting married on January 3.

S is adjusting to his new reality. His biggest burden is the large CS payment. He is currently taking xW to court to reduce the payment since he discovered that she never got medical insurance for GS, something the divorce decree said she must do with the CS money. The deep hurt is fading, but S struggles with bitterness. In time, I think that will fade also. He is an outstanding dad, and GS is a joy.

Thinking of you,
Estes

Hi Lisa,

Thanks for the hug. I feel so low this morning. Just sad. I also thought H had "changed" - that at least he had realized that there were things he could do better, and that he was trying to do better. He has been more communicative, at least he appeared to be so, he has been more affectionate (but sex still feels "strange"), just last week he was really encouraging me to get started on my library degree, saying that we had the money and that we could afford it (I have to admit that I wondered why he was being so nice - there's always the fear that he is being "good" because he has something to hide and is feeling guilty about it).

Even the day before, he had shown signs of being caring about my feelings - on Friday when I called my mom, she said she is having pain in her kidney and my sister said they were trying to get in to see the doctor. I told my sister that I really thought she should have a scan, as she could have a metastisis in her kidney that we don't know about. My sister said that even if she did there was nothing they could do about it now. I said that may be so, but it makes a difference knowing, because it might mean the difference between her having 2 years left to live and 2 months, and that is important to ME, because I don't exactly live right around the corner. My sister said that was a good point, she hadn't thought about it that way. Anyway, I tried to tell H about this conv I had had with my sister, and he was OK, but busy with the computer, didn't stop working, looking at the computer screen while I talked, just saying "yeah, well...I guess that's all you can do...at least you can talk to your sister..", not stopping what he was doing to look at me. This is another thing H does - refuses to stop his own work and give me his undivided attention. I guess the message I'm supposed to get is "I'm a busy man with a lot of work to do, but I'm fitting you in here as best I can, you should be grateful I'm listening to you with one ear and not complain". Finally I gave up and went away. In a couple of minutes, he followed me down the stairs, and caught up with me, took me in his arms and hugged me, saying "I'm really sorry about your mom, but its a good thing you can talk to your sister, and if you need to go see her, we'll work it out." I cried for a little while and he held me.

You know, its that that hurts the most. That he could do that the day before he exploded at me. I feel led up the garden path. One day he shows that he can be caring, the next day he explodes in my face.

But the thing about the explosion - there's part of me that - well, I have picking up the signs that H is brewing up for a long time - I've lived with H for a long time, and I think, at least I think, maybe its really all in my head and I'm just super-sensitive, that he brews up over a period of months - little things get to him, and he complains, his level of agitation rises about little things - he gets emotionally agitated about stuff - about politics, about work, about other people, about little stuff - about clutter around the house, about accidents that happen, about the kids making mess, about paint fumes or dust (he has asthma), about other people being rude to him (like the Immigration officer) - and whenever the opportunity arises, he explodes at this other people - the Immigration officer, the Anglian Home Improvements telephone sales, or someone on the street who cuts him off in the car. He is always bewildered at why strangers are rude to him. The pattern is that I notice this, and finally I can't stand it anymore and I say something, I think because I get anxious that he is being too agitated with the boys. Exploding at me last night was just exactly what he wanted to do - explode at someone big time. I think H is a rageaholic - not an alcoholic, but a rageaholic.

I'm trying to remember some of the stuff he said to me -

"WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE? WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?" Over and over again.
"HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT TO ME?" I said that I could say that because it was the God's truth.
"HOW CAN YOU TALK ABOUT GOD? I SPENT MONTHS DRAGGING THROUGH FILTH. FILTH. AND YOU CAN TALK ABOUT GOD AND THE TRUTH?"
I was taken aback by this statement and I would still like to know what he meant by this - dragging through filth -
"Not my filth." I said
"THIS IS PROVOCATION. PROVOCATION!"
"There's no such thing as provocation," I said. It wasn't what I meant to say, but that's how it came out. I meant to say that provocation doesn't justify this kind of behaviour.
"LET ME WRITE THAT DOWN. YOU ARE...JUST SO...(contempt)".

At this time, I was standing with YS, who had his arms wrapped around me and his head buried in my stomach. I barely spoke, just stayed quiet and calm. I wanted to get YS out of there, but knew YS would suffer as well, if the argument continued with him alone in his room. I can't imagine what this is doing to YS.

The upshot of it was that later H apologized and I told him again that we needed marriage counselling. He came upstairs later that night and asked how my mom was. I told him she was not too well and what was going on with her. He said that I needed to think about how I was going to get to see her. Then I said "I cannot deal with YOU and these problems between us, when my mum is dying and my friend William is fighting for his life. I am willing to go to a neutral marriage counselor of your choice and discuss anything you think I am doing which you don't like about me, but I want to discuss our problems together in a respectful way. I realize that what I said may have upset you and made you angry, but screaming at me at the top of your lungs in front of our child is unacceptable at any time, let alone now. I can't deal with being treated like this." He started getting agitated again and said that it didn't matter how we disagreed, that I shouldn't say things that upset him, or push his buttons. I said that was exactly the point - that it was the way that people disagreed that decided how they lived together, that it was fine to disagree, but with respect, and screaming at someone in fury was not the way. He got angry and said I had to take some responsibility for what happened.He said he had come upstairs to talk about my mother, not about us and left. Fine.

Later in the evening, as I was watching television, he came and sat on the sofa, looked hard at me and said he was sorry. I looked at him and said OK. I've got to at least go on living with some kind of equilibrium. But although I accepted his apology, I am not happy with it.

Sorry is not what I want. Marriage counselling is what I want, and change. My heart is dead to him right now.

This morning, I didn't get up, and when he left at 8am, I heard him call up the stairs "Bye, W", like he knew I wasn't getting up on purpose. He left a note on the table saying "sorry again".

Basically, what I think is H wants me to take responsibility for his anger and his behaviour, and I won't.

Maybe this will finally lead to MC.

Lisa - I was going to e-mail you - I was going to say "Were you jumping up and down in front of the telly, losing all control, on Saturday morning, because I certainly was!!! What a game!!!!" I figured you were back from Cuba and I hope you had a lovely time. Part of me can still laugh. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Thanks to everyone who is listening.

LIR

Dear Estes -

It's so good to hear from you - so many times I have been meaning to e-mail you. After your last e-mail, I also wondered about the outcome of your mother's mastectomy, and I failed to ask you - I'm so sorry. How long ago was that for you? It's terrible when doctors make mistakes. We also believe that my brother died because they punctured his bowel when they tried to drain the fluid off his belly the night they took him to ER. He was dying anyway, but it was a lot more painful than it should have been, because the bowel puncture brought on peritonitis.

I know that I am lucky (from a selfish point of view) to have this time to prepare for my mother's death, and to be able to tell her things that I need to tell her - like how I much I appreciate everything that she has done, and that in the face of such challenges, I think she did her job enormously well.

As to H - you're right - I don't hold out much hope of change. It's that thats getting me down - just this sense of hopelessness, not for me, but for the relationship ever being healthy. Its hard to know what to say, as well, when I guess I really should think about getting out, but I have stayed. There have been enough reasons to stay - for one, finding out that he was still seeing his therapist, and then this happens. I guess I look at it the same way you would if you were living with an alcoholic - yes, there's a problem, and no, a normal relationship is not possible until he stops drinking.

But there isn't an external "issue" that you can point to and say - drinking, drugs, gambling, sex addiction, childhood sexual abuse - with H, you can't say that - its all INSIDE of him. And since I think he has been that for so long - bottling all this rage up inside of him - he doesn't know that there is anything wrong with him. He is "triggered" - but the triggers, which are external events or conversations, trip the internal tripwire. Rage coming out at others is as natural to him as breathing - so he doesn't recognize it as his problem - its always the fault of the external triggers, and since I am closest in proximity, I HAVE to be the biggest - if its not him, it MUST be me, no matter what.

Two years ago, I didn't understand this, and I rationalized a lot of his behaviour by saying he was a creative and difficult person. But he hadn't really DONE anything (besides the way he treated me) to alert me to the kind of denial he was in. It was only when he went into these EAs and all the fallout from that showed how totally in denial he was, that I began to realize how big a problem it was.

Part of me sees that H is "trying" to get somewhere with himself. But I don't think its enough. I think he probably needs a lot more of a specific kind of help, before there is even the glimmer of a chance that that may start to change. And I don't know that I can wait for that to happen.

But I face the dilemma - if *I* walk away from this - for my sake - even for my children's sake - what DOES it do to them? They love and admire him, in part because when he is good, he can be very good with them. I have thought the best thing is to get them out of the house and into boarding school, so that they do not have to be in danger of witnessing any of these scenes, even if they happen only once every 6 months. My main thought is how to protect them - and I can't help but worry about the consequences of separation. My own parents split up when my brother was 11, and, even though he may have ended up having a schizophrenic breakdown anyway, I am sure the stress of the marriage breakup and the loss of respect he felt for my father contributed to the breakdown of his personality. My boys are only 10 and 7 - and they adore their dad - that's why it tears YS apart to see Daddy screaming at his mother - he can't understand it. OS was not here last night when that happened.

The testing time, when we may have a chance to make progress, or when the marriage may fall apart completely will be after next September, when YS goes into boarding, and we have two years with no children at home stretching before us. OS is already talking about where he might go to school when he is done with the choir - I think he would be happy to continue boarding and right now, I am wondering if that would be the best thing for him. Totally not what I wanted for my family life, or for him, but if that turns out to be for the best, I will go for it.

I am glad to hear that your S is recovering, and still having visitation rights to your GS - I was afraid that your S's ex would move far away from him.

God bless you Estes - thank you for all your thoughts and prayers. I'm sorry for my long silence. I'm posting here instead of e-mailing you privately because I have learned so much from reading other's posts that if what I am going through can help anyone who is lurking, at least that might be some good coming to someone out of all this.

If anyone is praying for me, please pray that my H will enter a treatment program for rageaholics - that's the kind of help he really needs.

Thanks for listening.
LIR

Hi LIR,
I only have a few minutes before I go to a meeting, but I'll be back as soon as possible.
(Which may be Monday, but hopefully later today)

I think we have alot to talk about.

Meanwhile, Pray - for God is the source of all truth, and if you want to know how best to cope, your answers lie there.

You will have my prayers also - don't think you are alone. May God's spirit be with you today to buoy you up and give you strength.

SS

Lady, I have two thoughts about your husband. The first thing is that it's been nine months since you saw this kind of behavior. That suggests to me that he HAS changed. Oh, sure, you've been much more careful to be respectful of him and all that jazz.

Still, he's surely made some tremendous changes so that the other hundred times when something annoying happened, it didn't turn into the display you saw the other night.

That's good.

The second thing I see is that he's not fully (maybe not at all) learned to deal with the hurts that are causing his anger. I don't know what those hurts are, but I will say that a reaction like his indicates that he's feeling some terribly difficult things right now and he needs to find ways to deal with them. Yes, the anger, and not just that. Anger is a "fight or flight" preparation in response to a threat of some kind. It happens when someone feels that their existence is in danger. I don't know what's making your husband feel that way. I do know that he's got to find it and address it. He's afraid. Terribly afraid. Probably he's afraid that he's not loved and nurtured and cared-for, because that's what most everyone is afraid of on some level.

So what can you do? Well, return peace for anger. Return love for expressions of hatred.

I wish you had gotten out of the situation when you realized that your gentleness was not getting through to him. I am so sorry that YS had to see and hear the things that your husband was doing. I have been that little child watching a fight between my parents, and I know how terrifying it is.

Next time, if I could suggest something, say, gently, "H, I love you. You are hurting right now and I understand that. I'm going to take YS for a drive while you calm down." And then go. Even if he screams at you all the way out the door, he's got to learn to deal with that stuff himself.

He was punishing you in order to make himself feel better. He probably -did- feel better, sort of, afterwards. And yet, the emotions are still there, not transformed from anger and hurt into love.

That's gotta happen. It's not about you and there's nothing you can do about it. It's about him and what's going on in his head.

lir

Gonna play devils advocate on this one...and you may not like it...
so take it with a grain of salt...or sugar since that is where it is coming from...

Sending you heaps and heaps of prayer and Grace to you and your mom and your family... <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

know that I am lucky (from a selfish point of view) to have this time to prepare for my mother's death, and to be able to tell her things that I need to tell her
that truly is a great gift...how blessed you are...I pray that I also may have that same opportunity in my life...

about the other stuff...
some truth of this may lay somewhere more in the middle of your presentation...

It may serve you a little a better to look at your own response to his changes...

for you do say several times in your posts...

that he has changed and has shown improvements...and IF you choose to go this route of working with them...then part of your job is to lay heaps and heaps and heaps of positive reiforcements on him when he does good...and the types of reiforcements HE responds....not the ones you necessarrily like or feel comfortable with....

You sound a little like a WS accusing the BS of really "not changing" .(note am not trying to say that affairs are BS fault and they need to change to the WS quits an affair.)..I am talking about the learning curve in a marraige where we take full responsbility in what is broken and either change or remove ourselves from the equasion that's not working....

Could it not be that he has been doing good...and fell off the wagon..

Are you waiting for each time he falls off a wagon to say ..I told you so...you haven't changed??

Is the power struggle over the kidlet in the jacket normal parents bumping heads in raising children and magnified because of past issues..
why power struggle the jacket..
why do you rise to the bait
it is perfectly reasonable to expect son to wear the jacket put it on him how ever it needs to be and walk away from hubby's taunts...
even in "healthy" relationship we all take assinine stands (husband with the jacket) and do crazy things about it...

best if YOU walk away.
remove yourself from the equasion...

he made some snide comment about not getting any help from the back seat. I said that was unreasonable -

Was it unreasonable..or could you have said..
tell me how you want me to help you ...and I will....

I know it's really easy for me say LIR...and I don't want to upset you..but these arguements sound normal as anything...
and i am concerned that you are putting them through a filter that distorts them and causes you to lose hope...

I said if he didn't want a fight with me, he shouldn't start one. End of conversation.

Honestly...that pretty much makes the david letterman top ten things not to say to a spouse in an arguement.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

If your children are witnessing large yelling spitting fights...you are just as much responsible for that fact and need to take you and children out of there then as soon as it begins...
I know you know this...
but you can't blame him when you are both doing it...

heaps and heaps of postive stuff for him apologizing..what three four times....
if you don't acknowledge he won't do it again..
he will view it as what's the point...

LIR i have great respect for you what you bring to this board..
you speak what you feel even if the risk is "teeing" off the person you are speaking to because you believe in what you are saying...

well I post this to you in that same way...

ARK

I enjoy reading your posts whether about your own situation or when you post to others. I have great respect for your insight and ability to express your thoughts so well.

Your husband does seem to be a rageaholic. Rage usually comes from anger, resentment and unforgiveness. He feels justified to feel this anger. He needs to learn that he isn't justified. He probably has lots of stuff from his childhood that he can find to justify his anger as well as why he is using you as a scapegoat and the brunt of it. He somehow feels safe or powerful in using you in this way. This rage and unforgiveness is his life is really unhealthy especially for himself as well as every one else he happens to unleash it on.

My husband and I found lots of insight through The Foundation of Human Understanding. http://www.fhu.com
Roy Masters is a British man married to an American. He has lived in the states all of his married life and has 4 or 5 grown children and several grand children. He lives in Oregon. He has a radio call-in program which can be accessed from his website. He teaches what he calls a Judeo Christian form of an observation/insight meditation techinique. He also writes books. One is called "How to Conquer Negative Emotions" another is "How Your Mind can Keep You Well". I wonder if your husband would be willing to read or listen to any tapes. There is an article on his site now about getting upset. Does you husband have too much pride to address this issue headon?

We are Christians (Catholic) and don't find that this detracts from our faith experience. It can be an enhancement.

Thanks so much to all of you who have answered me - I'm going to take things from last first, if that's OK - I'll do my best to get to every point brought up.

Ark - I appreciate you coming in here - and believe me, I don't take offense - what I need is a devil's advocate - and I'm sure you're right about some things - so what I'll try to do is look at my own feelings and responses to what he "does" and "says" and see if I can get a clearer picture.

...he has changed and has shown improvements...and IF you choose to go this route of working with them...then part of your job is to lay heaps and heaps and heaps of positive reiforcements on him when he does good...and the types of reiforcements HE responds....not the ones you necessarrily like or feel comfortable with....

How has he changed? He is more physically affectionate - he hugs me a lot, he helps more in terms of washing dishes, sometimes hanging up laundry, and sometimes cooking. He is back to trying to take care of things around the house, like fixing the back gate, and tonight, he fixed the back lights on one of our cars. I feel like he is investing energy into his home and family again - all that had gone by the board when he was involved with OW.
And you are right - I have slacked off a little (only a little) on complimenting him, and letting him know how much I appreciate what he does. I had started to realize that I was withdrawing from him, but now that you point it out, I can see that you bring up a good point.

You sound a little like a WS accusing the BS of really "not changing"
I can see that, too. Part of that is because what I was feeling is that actually, I was feeling that H has got quite comfortable again, and I was starting to feel that his "old" ways were starting to emerge again - telling me what to do, being demanding, being cross and passive-aggressive, not accepting discussion, being domineering with the children. All those things make me nervous. Because my H and I quit MC in March, with H storming out in a rage claiming the counselor was biased towards me. My H has never acknowledged to me that there was anything he did wrong and in fact, counselling for him, over the last two years, appears to me to have become no more than him finding a third party to complain to about ME, about my "rage" problem, and what a victim he is. How do I know this? Because I saw the letter he sent to his counselor the day after he walked out of that MC session. He had cut and paste it, and inadvertantly not wiped it from the clipboard. He presented himself as being torn apart by this neurotic and twisted woman who "levelled a stream of invective" at him and wouldn't let him get a word in edgewise. Similarly, my H sent a letter to the Immigration authorities 2 weeks ago describing the incident where he got into a row with the man who checked our passports. The IO was rude, by my H exploded at started remonstrating and arguing with him at full voice, then rolled up the car window. In his letter to Imm. he states that he rolled up the car window to block the "stream of invective" coming from the IO. Nowhere does he state that he was also yelling at full voice. When I pointed out that he was angry, too, he said that didn't matter, that the other guy started it. When he exploded at the IO, I started to really get nervous - that is the moment a couple of weeks ago, when my heart sank and I thought "you really haven't changed at all, you have just been 'being nice'". He's like a boy who is trying his best to be on his good behaviour, but eventually, what he is holding back has to surface, and the way it surfaces is in an explosion against another person. I get real nervous being around someone like that. It's normal to get nervous. But that's why I say I'm super-sensitive, and maybe my nervousness blows little things out of proportion. But I'm nervous because I have been around these explosions long enough to have some instinct that they are coming.

I am talking about the learning curve in a marraige where we take full responsbility in what is broken and either change or remove ourselves from the equasion that's not working....
H has never taken any responsibility for what is broken in our marriage - for what he has done - the rage, throwing things at me, screaming at me, or the damage done to our children. Instead, he shifts all the blame on to me - I provoke him, so our children are damaged because I provoke him. I have a problem with jealousy, so he needs to keep his relationships with other women secret. I spy on him, so he needs to guard his privacy zealously. He is stressed out having a depressed wife, so he needs frivolous R with other women to satisfy his natural sociability. Etc, etc, etc. I'm sorry, I don't buy it. I refuse to take the burden of this on to me. And IF I have a problem with any of these things, which well I might, we can talk about it - reasonably - in a counselor's office - or without a counselor - whatever, but we should talk about it. The telling thing is that he refuses utterly to talk about it. Any suggestion that we should talk about it sends him into the kind of towering rage he let off with on Saturday. Its like a gorilla beating his chest in front of you, hoping to frighten you away from somewhere he doesn't want you to go.

Could it not be that he has been doing good...and fell off the wagon..
Yes, it could very well be, and now that I've had time to calm down and think about my own part in this, I think this might be the case. I suggested that we needed to talk and H said he was willing to talk about things but not when YS is in the house.

Are you waiting for each time he falls off a wagon to say ..I told you so...you haven't changed?? That may be, too - mostly, its that my stomach churns every time I see this coming, and when it does happen, I feel dead inside. Its like back to square one, and its happened often enough for me to feel its not just falling off the wagon - its a pattern. Falling off the wagon would mean that he accepted responsibility for his rage and tried to change, then acknowledged his failure when he did, and we dusted ourselves off and went on. But you can't fall off the wagon if you are never on in the first place. And H has never accepted that he rages. He says sorry afterwards and then fully expects you to wipe the slate clean and never remember. I am scared now that there is always going to be a next time and its a legitimate fear.

Is the power struggle over the kidlet in the jacket normal parents bumping heads in raising children and magnified because of past issues..
why power struggle the jacket..
why do you rise to the bait
it is perfectly reasonable to expect son to wear the jacket put it on him how ever it needs to be and walk away from hubby's taunts...
even in "healthy" relationship we all take assinine stands (husband with the jacket) and do crazy things about it...

best if YOU walk away.
remove yourself from the equasion...
Yes, you are right - but when its about the children, how do I keep them from losing respect for my authority? If one parent is passive-aggressively undermining the other's authority, eventually you have kids who pit the parents against each other. H has demanded that I not interfere in his discipline and that I back up his authority, but there are times when he needs to be reminded to do the same for me, and one of the "lazy" things I feel he has been doing lately is undermining me - letting the kids get away with not doing what I ask them to do - I ask them to do something, and they don't move. H is in the room and says nothing. I ask again and they don't move and again, he says nothing. Finally I ask a third time - I don't want to shout - it takes asking again and again, before H will back me up - and they aren't going to move unless he backs me up.

[it] he made some snide comment about not getting any help from the back seat. I said that was unreasonable -[/it]

Was it unreasonable..or could you have said..tell me how you want me to help you ...and I will....
Yes, you're right - I could have said that, if only I had thought about it - again, I was nervous. He was getting agitated, and finally starting to turn on me. And there's past history there. On a previous trip, he had taken the wrong turn and ended up on a motorway he didn't want to be on - he blamed me because I had the map, even though it wasn't signposted - later, we went back and he could see there was no way I could have known which was the right way to turn. On that occasion, he suddenly lost his temper and started screaming at me - he actually stopped the car on the hard shoulder of the motorway and jumped out, screaming at me that I was a depressive "bi***H" and he couldn't stand living with me anymore. On that occasion, he was doing several performances and he was very stressed out by the person he was working with - so it all became my fault. So I remember that episode really clearly, and I got nervous. You know, why am I still here? I don't know. A lot of the time I feel trapped - like a fish dead in the water. H always says sorry on these occasions. But it looks like there is always going to be a next time.

I know it's really easy for me say LIR...and I don't want to upset you..but these arguements sound normal as anything...
and i am concerned that you are putting them through a filter that distorts them and causes you to lose hope... These arguments are normal - all couples have them. But not all couples have them blow up in their face.

[it]I said if he didn't want a fight with me, he shouldn't start one. End of conversation. [/it]

Honestly...that pretty much makes the david letterman top ten things not to say to a spouse in an arguement.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> OK, I can smile at that one, too, but I would rather have end of conversation and no talking, than being screamed at.

If your children are witnessing large yelling spitting fights...
My children witness him screaming at me, not a screaming match.
you are just as much responsible for that fact and need to take you and children out of there then as soon as it begins...
The last time I tried to take YS out of the house, H followed me and dragged YS out of the car and back into the house, we then went into the kitchen and shut the door and he totally lost it and ended up trying to physically shove me out the back door. I am not going to risk my son getting involved in a physical tug-of-war between us while I try to get away. Since my H was between me and the door, I felt it was best to stay calm and shield YS until I was able to take him upstairs safely.

I know you know this...
but you can't blame him when you are both doing it... I do know this and I can honestly say that this is not both of us doing it. This is him losing his temper and venting on me in front of YS.

heaps and heaps of postive stuff for him apologizing..what three four times....
if you don't acknowledge he won't do it again..
he will view it as what's the point...
ark - in this, I have to differ with you. Abusers always apologize. He gets credit for apologizing, in my heart - but apologies are not what I want. I'm sick of hearing his apologies, as if that made everything OK again. Apologies are the last thing I want to hear. Apologies are just the end of one cycle abuse and with the apology the next cycle starts all over again. I want to hear - "I realize I have a problem and I want us to get help - I promise to work towards gaining your respect and love back because you are so important to me". I don't hear that. Yet.

ark - you are great, and I'm honored you take the time for me - you know I listen to you, and respect you very highly - you can always hit me with your 2X4! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> (I'm waiting for ss's 2X4 next <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> )

OK, I have to go put my boys to bed now. I'll try to get back to answer the next post - Just J - but if it doesn't show up tonight, I will have to get to it tomorrow at work. Just J - you have pointed out some good stuff to me, thank you - and I will get back to it.

Ok, going now.
LIR

Hi LIR,
I've enjoyed reading your posts. I respect your insight and your ability to express yourself.

It seems like your husband has lots of resentment and unforgiveness that comes out in his outbursts of rage and anger.

The Foundation for Human Understanding,
http://www.fhu.com, Roy Masters has some materials that may be of help to him. There is an article about being upset on the site now.

Roy Masters is a British man who has spent all of his married years in the states (in Oregon now) with his American wife. They have 4 or 5 grown kids and many grand children. He has written several books: "How to Conquer Negative Emotions" and "How Your Mind Can Make You Well" are two that may be of help. He has a radio call-in show.
He teaches what he calls a Judeo-Christian form of an observation/insight meditation technique.

We are Christians (Catholic)and do not find that this detracts from our faith but is used as an enhancement.

Wishing you all the best. I hope you will hang in there with him. I will pray that he can find the means to make real change. It will be healthier for himself as well as the other people who he encounters in his life.

LIR, hello,

You are certainly blessed with many thoughtful replies to your posts. It’s like having a flock of MB angels hovering around wishing you well.

There are several things that struck me in your reply. The first is in regard to the boys and the effect of the situation on them. You are wise to consider this. I know that they love him. No matter what, they will always love him and crave his love in return. However, re: this statement </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">- that's why it tears YS apart to see Daddy screaming at his mother - he can't understand it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">, I believe that the overriding emotion that is tearing YS apart is primarily fear , not love. He fears the rage, he fears for you, and he fears for what is going to happen to him and his security. (I’m not referring to physical harm to YS by H.). I think that, just like you, YS stays tense wondering when the next blow-up is going to happen. I think that, just like you, his stomach churns and his heart races. OS probably has some of these fears, but he has been spared at lot of this because of being at school. So, in my very unprofessional opinion, your decision may hinge on whether it is healthier for the boys if you live apart from (but they still see) the dad they love and are spared the continuing emotional turmoil OR live with the dad they love and continue to feel emotionally threatened by his abusive behavior. It is a tough, tough place you are in. Have you looked into finding a psychologist for YS? A child psychologist/psychiatrist could tell you whether or not any significant emotional damage is being done. That knowledge might be just what you need to make your decision.

Secondly, I agree that it will be like living with an alcoholic should you decide to stay. There is no question that members of an alcoholic’s family are damaged. The same is true for the family of an abuser – even if the cause of the abusive behavior is due to a true illness. You cannot change him, but you cannot let him drag you and the family down with his unresolved problems if that, indeed, is what’s happening. It is one thing to support him and reinforce his efforts as he works very hard to cure his problems. It is quite another if H has proven that he is not committed to overcoming his “affliction.” It is one thing to be understanding of his internal torment. It is another to refuse to tolerate the effects of the behavior on your family. That is the hard, hard thing only you can decide. The family of an alcoholic must learn to make a safe and emotionally healthy life without depending on the alcoholic to contribute to the quality of that life. Yes, you may love the alcoholic, you may choose to continue to live with the alcoholic, but you keep your emotional distance and live your own life. You do not owe the alcoholic your life and sanity and the emotional health of the children. That said, what a tough call this is to make. Even if H is “sick,” where do you draw the line to protect everyone? Again, maybe a psychologist can help you sort things out. And IMO, MC won’t do any good until H fixes his internal demons. H needs to be with a psychiatric counselor, first, then marriage counseling. And LIR, divorce is not necessarily the option to choose. A separation might jolt H into helping himself, because I think he really does want his family.

Boy, reading back over this, it sounds harsh, especially from someone who will not have any repercussions from what you decide. As you weigh your options, I say “Full speed ahead.” with your library degree. It will benefit you no matter what you decide. And if tensions start to rise, follow Just J’s excellent suggestion to take the boys and go out for a drive.

Changing the subject, Mom died in the spring of 1998 at the age of 76. Soon it will be 6 years. She was an excellent mom and a kind and intelligent person. My dad was too. He died in 1995. I am proud of both of them and very blessed to have them as role models. . Mom nursed Dad through a heart attack, by-pass surgery, and 8 years of Alzheimer’s disease. It took its toll. They lived in a small community near Houston about 11 hours driving time from here (That’s Texas for you!), so I didn’t see them as often as I would have liked. I miss them still.

I hope that you are able to enjoy the upcoming holiday season with the wonderful musical activities and traditions in your part of the world.

Estes

<small>[ November 24, 2003, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: Estes49 ]</small>

Hi LIR;
Just dropped in for a bit, haven't been here for months, I think...but just a big hug for you!
SC

Interesting thread

LIR,

I just stumbled across this thread in another MB forum. It seems worthy of examination for help in coping with a loved one who has a problem that we cannot fix.

Estes