Please see previous posts for the whole story, I will just hit the big details.

In Feb/Mar of this year, my W had an A with OM in another country. It was revield to me when she returned home. She still loves the OM, and thinks they are ment to be together and are just a 'better fit' then her and I. I have been working to get her to stop all communication with him etc. etc. (Plan A) but it has lead nowhere.

The fundamental problem we are having is this:

She believes that the OM and her are just a better fit for each other and that her and I can never live up too it. Her heart wants to choose him, but her mind wants too choose me (Because I am a Christian & She knows me better, I am the 'smarter' choice).

Since she never had the experience of the A blowing up in her face, she is left with a sublime emotional attachment too him and she says it will never go away.

I believe that love takes work, devotion, & commitment. Much of what this site talks about. But she belives people are just one way or another, I'm a 7 and he's a 9, and she fits better with the 9. I'm not saying 9 is better then 7, she just happens to work better with it. She constantly tells me there is nothing I can do to change and make her happy, I'm fine the way I am.

What can be done to help this? As long as this attitude continues our marriage will never be given a chance. She even wishes she could go back to the other country and try the A to see if it would blow up, that way she could know I meant more to her.

So confusing.

If anyone knows a good & affordable MC in the Seattle area, please let me know.

Goodness...She needs to wake up...You are right love and marriage is as hard as any job out there and it takes 2 people to make it work. Once someone starts disectting love (this is strictly my opinion so be nice to me folks) it gets all screwed up...For example "i dont love you the same" well heck fire after 20 years I hope not...LOL...love isnt butterflies and great sex 24/7...Its the bonds that grow daily, its being with the one peron on this earth god had set aside for you and I truely believe the ones who make it after a "A:" have got to have god in it because hteres no way possible I could have that much love inside of me on y own...did i make any sense????

See if she'll get some counseling from the Harleys. Buy "Surviving an Affair" and ask her to read it. Your marriage was vulnerable to an affair. Find out why. And unlike some may say here....it might NOT be because you didn't fill ENs. There are lots of external factors that CAN make your marriage vulnerable....and those need to be eliminated. Perhaps Mr.X was more adventurous. Dig deeper and get some answers that can help you.

For more on finding out why that is not about EN's, read "Torn Asunder" together. A bit different perspective than Harley, and very good. Don't dismiss the EN thing though - it is almost always an important part of the "Why?" puzzle, and I think Harley's tools are better at exposing them than Torn Asunder's. Did your wife ever take the EN questionaire? You usually don't get completely honest answers when the spouse is still involved emotionally with the OP. Cerri suggests answering the part of the ENQ that asks "How could _need xxx_ be better filled in your marriage?" with "How would the perfect spouse fulfill this need for you?" It helps get around the mental block some people have about what they think their spouse is not capable of doing.

<small>[ July 10, 2003, 01:28 AM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

"I'm a 7 and he's a 9, and she fits better with the 9. I'm not saying 9 is better then 7, she just happens to work better with it. She constantly tells me there is nothing I can do to change and make her happy, I'm fine the way I am. "

Your wife is out to lunch. The problem is that she thinks she is a 9 but her adulterous actions really shows that she is a 1. In comparison you are a 10 which means that you are wasting your time with this foolish woman and can do a lot better than staying in a marriage with her.

<small>[ July 10, 2003, 02:04 AM: Message edited by: tomaz ]</small>

Don't know anything about you or your wife but can comment on your fit question. Although there is still controversy the jury is pretty much in about fit...it is real, it is measurable, and it is a factor in marital success. A person can be described in several measurable ways...one is body type, which determines your maximum success at any given physical activity you "fit" some things better than others. Two is intelligence, a factor which determines your success at different endeavours. The third is your psychological characteristics, usually referred to as temperament..having to do with your genetic makeup manifesting in how you intake and process information, and make decisions from this.

Temperament is an accurate predictor of marital success (when both temperaments are known) from a statistical standpoint. One cannot accurately (yet) predict a specific couples marital outcome however. This makes sense because IMO we all inherently know we get along better with some people than others, but never had the tools to understand why, or explain it. What this means for those experienceing marital disharmony,is the likelihood of successful recovery is a function of how well they fit..the disharmony could be for many reasons, not all having to do with fit, but the disharmony itself (and the work needed to recover) is directly related to communication and understanding of each other (and choices made from that process), making success (and success is not about the marriage recovering or ending, but about understanding who each is, and what they want) a function of how well(or not) the two individuals fit. This (life) is not a game, where one can just decide reality is whatever you want it to be, or one can have any outcome they desire by just following some "rules". There are principles at work, some fairly easy to see and respect (like gravity), others more difficult to see and apply (such as the psychological rules that govern human behaviour)...but we ignore these "real" rules at our own peril.

It is my opinion that it is counter-productive for one person to insist or impose on another that fit doesn't matter, or say (with no basis obviously) that we can have a great marriage if we just do A, B, C..... This is disrespectful to the spouse who (correctly) says fit matters. IMO what is honest, and makes more sense is to acknowledge, yep you are right, it does matter, and I respect your concern. Let's address this (along with whatever other issues are involved), until we both thoroughly understand our circumstances and can make the decision to remain married or not. This is a fairly complicated and confusing matter, we all know how we "feel" at a given moment, and can "react" to that...but understanding how and why we have a feeling, so as to make a "pro"active choice is much harder. For those individuals who have this kind of concern, and are dealing with a spouse (often the bs, but could be the other way around, and is for some on MB), who says I don't care about all that, I just insist we must be married, little is going to be accomplished (although false recoveries may occur for a time), because one spouse is trying to possess the other with no concern whether that is what they really want, and that will breed resentment. The other outcome being I will do whatever you want me too, is almost as bad, cause no one can be anything but what they are, and we all know this, so it is distressing also and conflictual (basically cause it is psychologically dishonest).

So what to do? MB has the tools (although they don't deal in temperament, something I think they will add in time). Those tools create (as much as possible) a safe, non-conflictual condition to resolve the marital conflict. And it offers some tools to create interest (the EN model). For some, that is enough, for many it does not seem to be, there are reasons for that. One of which IMO is temperament issues. There are lots of good information out there in the psychological community, much being published. Validate your wifes concerns by agreeing to investigate this fit issue. She should also be willing to educate herself since she has made it a marital concern. This does not have to be the entire focus of, or a dealbreaker for, your marriage..but it will be a growth experience, and as such will change the marital dynamics, in a positive way (meaning better understanding, regardless of outcome).

This removes her concern about staying married (or not) cause of fit...moving this decision to the future by acknowledging such an important consideration is worthy of study and understanding before applying in ones life. This gives you, and the marriage, time to recover on all fronts, and makes you a partner, not an adversary in that process. If instead you fight her on this, or fault her for the A, and make it all about that, you substantially increase the likelihood of alienateing her, or having at best a reluctant marital partner. It is a risk, you have to let her go, she has to know you have done so...then you can win her heart back, you may fit better than she realizes. Fit is a funny thing, it is real, it exists, but it is hard to identify with exactitude, and can get masked by chageable behaviours. With some time, and the right atmosphere, if you (and she) have changes that need to be made anyways, then how much you fit may be greater than she realizes...but it may also be less, and the marriage be just about history and kids, and fear of no one else choosing one (settleing for security). But regardless of the outcome, you (both) will reach a point you can (or choose not) make an informed committed choice, and that is worth the work and the risk (of being rejected).

<small>[ July 10, 2003, 08:07 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

Hmmm. Interesting. I am not sure personality testing will be added here, because philosophically, Harley has said that only three things matter: Care, Protection, and Conflict Resolution. I am guessing that "fit" based on compatible temperments has the biggest impact on conflict resolution. Compatible types will have less conflict to begin with, and be able to solve them more easily because their conflict resolution styles are similar or compatible. (That is only a guess - this is the first I have heard about this research outside of the ads for eharmony.com) If this is true, it seems to me that it would mostly affect the difficulty of learning how to resolve conflicts constructively.

Is this consistent with what the research says? Or are the findings more counter-intuitive - something like "complementary types have more conflict which causes them to learn how to resolve it early in marriage, which tendds to make the marriage more successful".

I am also curious as to how they measure marital success - if the metric is some "marital happiness" measure, or simply not divorcing. I am under the impression that Gottman uses the "not divorcing" metric, because his prescription for a good marriage, though similar to Harley's, leads to what I consider a less good marriage than Harley's method, and to a marriage that I would consider more vulnerable to an affair. In fact, I would say that on average over it's lifetime, my marriage was pretty good by Gottman's standards, but lousy by Harley's. We are still married, but my wife had an affair, and I wanted one for years. That is why I ask the question. It is true that couples that stay together are likely to be more satisfied than those who do not, so there should be a high correlation between the two measures, but I am curious about which metric was used (or does it depend on the study?)

WOW - Lots of great info and discussion going on here, thank you for the responses so far.

We have discussed ENs etc. at length and to my knowledge, this was not the reason for the A. She says there is nothing I should do to change how I am with her - she likes me the way I am and it is not my fault in any way. She only had the A because she was a better fit with the other person - but the whole fit issue is pretty complicated. She said we just dont have a spark anymore, but her and the OM did.

She compared the A to a romance novel and me to something else. I didn't let her finish the sentance cause I knew it would just hurt me, but I got the idea. The thing is that I have been trying for a year to increase th passion & romance in a marriage. We both read HNHN before our wedding and took the ENQ with my wife and acted on it. When the passion started to fall, I tried to work on love, passion etc. but she was pretty non-responsive to it all. But aparently when she met him, it was just so 'natural' that it must be he is a better fit for her. The sad thing is we are both only 24 and she seems to think there can't be any passion! She is just non-responsive to anything I try, and I haven't been trying what I want to do, I have been trying to meet her ENs and satisfy her.

They are still keeping in contact which I have been working on to stop. Plan Aing for 4 months and B is soon around the corner. My feelings for her are starting to change and I need to protect what is left.

I have caught her in so many lies that I honestly dont know if I can trust her anymore. Even when she says I am meeting her ENs, I dont know if that is the truth or what.

Keep 'em comin.

PS - I did read Torn Asunder, really liked it. I can't seem to get her to read anything. She did agree to counseling, but I am trying to find a good counselor in our area for us. I called the MB number for a referral.

I am not sure Harley (as a psychological expert) is on record as saying temperament does not exist, or is not important in human behaviour (and obviously marriage is about behaviour). I would be very surprised if he took that position. He may not be comfortable with including it in his MB model due to lack of sufficient "tools" and data on how to apply it. But that still does not mean these forces are not at work in our lives...Just that he has not specific help to offer at this time, and we are on our own. In the final analysis no professional such as doctors, pyschologists, counsellors, spiritual leaders can live our lives, or apprise us with 100% of what we need to know...they are all advisors, we are ultimately responsible for our decisions and the outcomes, and know best what we should do. The moment we let someone else "tell" us what to do, we are gauranteed we have not made the best decision...it may be better than a current choice we are talked out of, but it still will not be the best exact choice. The greatest expert about us is....us.

There is a lot of information available about temperament, the current model has its roots in carl jung work, but the concept actually goes back thousands of years (as does medicine for example). Currently fortune 500 companies spend millions of dollars on temperament testing and psychological profiling in general, hard nosed business people do not spend such money on ineffective tools (like horoscopes for example). Jury analysts spend substantial effort (and money) as well...clearly they expect to apply this information to secure an outcome. The list goes on, the principle is clear, there are tools to apply it, and there are consequences to ignoring temperament in human behaviour.

There are several deriviatives of jung's work, but they are closely related. A cursory google search should give plenty of hits for your perusal. There are also books in the popular self-help genre that one can obtain also.

john...Hmmm. Interesting. I am not sure personality testing will be added here, because philosophically, Harley has said that only three things matter: Care, Protection, and Conflict Resolution.

s..He is mistaken (if he actually takes that position as stated). If that were so, it would imply it makes no difference who we decide to marry, I know no human being who believes that, it is inherent knowledge to all of us...it matters. Think about the people in you have ever met, imagine marriage to any of them (assuming MB skills), would you care who you were married too?

john...I am guessing that "fit" based on compatible temperments has the biggest impact on conflict resolution.

s...Indeed. Temperament has in part an influence on how people actually percieve reality, hence the agree to disagree resolution impasse. The more compatible the temperaments the greater likelihood of successful conflict resolution (due to being on the same reality page). Marriage (in part) could be defined by a standard of such resolution, enough agreement a good marriage, not enough not so good a marriage, hence temperament becomes a predictor of marital success.

john...Compatible types will have less conflict to begin with, and be able to solve them more easily because their conflict resolution styles are similar or compatible. (That is only a guess - this is the first I have heard about this research outside of the ads for eharmony.com) If this is true, it seems to me that it would mostly affect the difficulty of learning how to resolve conflicts constructively.

s...All conflicts cannot be resolved constructively, some result in war, and other forms of persuasion. Others result in divorce, or abuse, or neglect, or affairs, etc. But yes, the degree of temperament incompatibility is a factor in constructive conflict resolution, which is the point that temperament matters in relationships of all kinds....and the closer, the more it matters.

john...Is this consistent with what the research says? Or are the findings more counter-intuitive - something like "complementary types have more conflict which causes them to learn how to resolve it early in marriage, which tendds to make the marriage more successful".

s...I am not sure john, this is a highly complex area on many levels. Temperament is not just about conflict resolution, it is about how choices are made and carried out, it is about how one wants to experience and live life, all these things impact how successful an intimate relationship is going to be....and much of it is immutable, is not something you learn, or change, it is who you are.

john...I am also curious as to how they measure marital success - if the metric is some "marital happiness" measure, or simply not divorcing.

s....Best if you read about this directly. But the methodology is standard types of population studies. They type the individuals, then through various means (hopefully relevant, but then that is the challenge for all sociologist/psychologists) assess the quality of their marriages, divorce being an important factor I am sure, but not the only one. THen they see if statistically the applied model accurately predicted the empirical results.

john...I am under the impression that Gottman uses the "not divorcing" metric, because his prescription for a good marriage, though similar to Harley's, leads to what I consider a less good marriage than Harley's method, and to a marriage that I would consider more vulnerable to an affair.

s...I am not familiar with Gottman per se, but agree that measuring success soley by whether one stays married or divorces is ridiculous. There is an oft quoted study that people in conflict who are interviewed 5 years later (and still married) are "happier"...this is absolutely meaningless without answering the question happier than what, happier in what ways, what other choices might have led to even greater happiness. Heck if you were getting beat everyday, and 5 years later you are getting beat only once a year, you may be ecstatic....uh, so what...you are definitely not well, or healthy.

Anyways, look into it if it interests you, I am not qualified to educate anyone in this venue, I just pass on stuff that makes sense to me for further consideration if one wants to do so.

<small>[ July 10, 2003, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

from above, IMO (and seems no disagrees), it is difficult if not impossible to properly unravel all this stuff in a triangle. Hence the plan a/b tool. Hopefully your wife will come to understand she cannot properly assess EITHER relationship while in both. That should be where ones "educational" efforts are directed, not to making her stop, but to encourageing her to consider the arguments so she will decide to stop. It is my contention that by not pressuring someone about marital outcomes (that usually being that the marriage has to work), instead acknowledging marriage must be a freely made choice and that you are willing to explore whether that is still the case for her, will reduce tension and anxiety, generate trust in you (and your motives not being selfish), and maybe lead to a plan of action that includes ending the affair for the time being.

BS typically focus on regaining passion and romance, and feel rejected and compared to the affair partner..this is understandable but not helpful. You would not expect passion and romance in the intitial development of a relationship, it is not something you deserve, or can be given...it is a both a gift, and a consequence of other things. It will come when it comes, on it's own. An affair (usually) ends the marriage emotionally, and the relationship has to start over....make friends with her, do not pressure her with demands, or woe is me, and let nature take it's course....she may or may not respond, participate, but that is the best you can do IMO.
When and if she wants to apply MB stuff, fine, but pressuring her to do so will not have a good outcome, even if complied with, will be resented.

For SUdFD - I know you think you are trying to help people here. But I just took 3 tests for schooling, interest tests, and I varied on the tests. There is no one test that PROVES anything. And also, when I was talking to the person who gave the test and evaluated the results, your temperment changes. Evironmental situations in your life, change your temperamnet. If you lose a very close friend, spouse through death, or severe injury, you temperament will change. WHy do you think there are those that go beyond death of a loved one with crazy patterns.

This is what this professor does, for a life. She told me what I might have been before I took the Meyer Briggs test before, and I am of different temperament now. My divorce finally final on June 6 of this year and a long one which many of you know that we both post here, has been wicked, caused me additional stress, and loss of self-esteem.

She told me that stress causes change, environmental situations causes change, You are never the same person always. And yes, one can CHOOSE to change something, if they WANT to. But if they are selfish, they see no reason to change. That is where these temperment tests have their faults,

I believe if the MB was to use tempermanet tests, they would not be faithful to God Words. Of course, SUDFD seems to talk little of Gods wishes, and Gods wants. All It seems to be in his words of what he thinks, and for me his words don't seem to be of value. This is a christian based board, to build the marriage that you have. You two fell in love, and never do I see SUDFD state that a marriage should be saved. He is always rejected marriages. Divorce and see what happens. Then like the statement above, very few marriages come back together. So from what I see he is saying, divorce, divroce.

God does not want divorce, that is what the Harleys are conveying. If two people who fell in love, a long time ago, and had children and had a good life, worked hard. Can get that marriage back. When you have one that thinks in terms of temp. testing, to see if they fit, that is false garbage. What about the love, the talking, the filling each other needs when you were dating. That was love, true love.

I would show your wife the love, the true you that you care about her. I would get counseling, the Harleys are good, but to have a counselor in person I believe helps. To see the body reaction of the clients, is important. I talked to the professor aboutthis, and she agreed. There is a lot in body language, and a good counselor will see and respond appropriately.

This has been a source of hurt in my x-husband. He will never be unselfish. And he has destroyed our whole family. Divorce destroys, and I am seeking counseling for myself and my 4 kids. They are all almost adults. My x-husband told me they were fine, I talk to them and it is not fine. So he can do waht eever he wants. I know we need counseling as a group, and I am searching for counseling for us 5.

Try very hard, make a good start. Remember when you two were dating. Get the counseling, and both of you need to commit 100%. Yourmarriage can be saved, and like I have read, if you can get through this with the committment of commiting to your marriage 100%, you will have a lovely marriage, and a true love the rest of your lives till death do part. Sin will not be in your marriage, with divorce.

From above.... your story is so similar to mine it is scarey..... My FWH also went overseas for a month met another woman who he thought was perfect for him she also was a 9 and I at the time was probably a 2. Since all of this has happened I have tried very hard and succsessfully to change back to the woman he first met. I have been sweet understanding... fantastic lover, good friend, I have constrantly shown him how much I love him, I have tried hard to be nice about OW slowely the numbers changed I am now a 9 she is a 2. Maybe this can happen in your case. My H affair was in August last year and it did take him a long time and a lot of work to change around but together we are improving it daily. All the very best my prayers are with you... just dont give up.... try try try....

Fog talk pure and simple.

It would be interesting if her OM did to her what she did to you (very likely considering the distance between them), and justify his decision to betray her with the same arguments she is using on you ('a better fit'). It would certainly blow her beleif system out of the water. Let's pray that this happens.