So essentially what I have been hearing from most of the replys to my posting is that I should abandon the trusting relationship which has evolved between myself and an as yet to be divorced woman who may very well be the better half of a perfect and fulfilling long-term relationship ? I found it most interesting, the "expert" opinion that declares a two-year statute upon affairs. And by the way, I do not run when it gets a little stormy. Not my style . .

Why would it be your style to run from the storminess - you're allowing yourself to be a stormchaser...<P>Something about adrenelin going on here, Carlton?<P>Do not look to justify and excuse here, you will not find any!!!<P>It's wrong - you know it too, or you wouldn't be here!!!!<P>If it's all you say it is - then why can't you back away like a man and wait for this person to free herself completely?

Carlton,<P>A MAN has something inside that distiguishes right from wrong. All you care about is the illicit affair. What about all the pain you are about to bring to all involved? If you really cared as you say you would back off! No I think I have seen your style before. A little person who will USE whoever and whatever for his own pleasure.

Sheba . . . Where does the line get drawn, anyway ? "If it is meant to be" is not how I believe in being supportive. And of course it is wrong to fall in love with a married woman. No way am I trying to justify anything. Moreover, I am not seeking any consolation prize either. Call me whatever you wish, the fact still remains that just because the Law of Moses forbids certain conduct, all is fair in love and war. But that is only in a game, and the game is not winning or losing . . . but living. You live your life, and I shall live mine. What am I trying to accomplish here ? Insight into how to prepare myself to enter into a lasting relationship with a divorced woman with children who has been living her life for others, and how I can help her live her life for herself without getting in her way. You see, it really is more about giving than taking. I'm not asking for anything in return except to share some space and time with a really neat lady. No more, no less . . . <P>dj . . . "an illicit affair ?" isn't that special.

All I can say is I hope sometime YOU are the one on this board upset because your spouse is cheating on you. Maybe than you will know why the hostility.

Sorry, one of my bad moments.<p>[This message has been edited by wasstubborn (edited September 14, 1999).]

Carlton,<P>The point is not that I told you to run from the storms, but that I told you to RUN from a vulnerable woman who doesn't need you as much as she needs to work on her marriage WITH HER HUSBAND before she gives in to you. <P>It's really handy that you're there to pick up the pieces, and I'm sure she'll appreciate it... that is, until she WAKES UP and realizes what she's lost and feels like a piece of sh*t for ripping apart her family. And you will be there, I'm sure, to tell her that she didn't really make a mistake after all. And when she gets tired of you, or falls out "of love" with you and runs to someone else, because she never did work out what happened with her husband (thanks to you) then you will understand. <P>I'm not trying to judge you, but it sure seems like you're judging us. Do you have ANY idea how it feels look at the face of your spouse and not feel love anymore? I was there, and I ran into the arms of another. Here's what happens in the end. You hate yourself and/or you hate your spouse and/or you hate the person you cheated with. Or maybe you'll live in fantasy land for a few months or years. But then the trouble begins again. And the trouble will begin again if she doesn't work on the causes. <P>If I beleived in such things, I'd wish you a crystal ball so that you could see what havoc your relationship will cause. I believe you when you say you love her. If that's true... BACK OFF, let her work on her marriage!

So it goes. We are different, you and me. I honestly do not wish to offend anyone, and contrary to popular opinion . . . homewrecking is not my forte. So for what it's worth, me and my God know my intentions are honorable (as hypocritical as this may appear to be) and the mutual respect we have for one another is more than enough for me to continue believing in what we have is a good thing, and not "an affair" of the heart for entertainment purposes. Whatever . . .

Carlton,<P>I have a proposition for you... have her sign in here and talk to us. Let her make an informed decision. Right now she's taking the way that makes her "feel" good. But it's temporary. It is! I'm not kidding, and I'm not trying to make you feel uncomfortable. I'm very serious.<P>Tell her about this site. Let her post questions she has. Please let her work on her marriage. You both deserve that.

> New Beginning . . . <P>Right now she's taking the way that makes her "feel" good. <P>Apparently, you are a sincere person. So refreshing to read an open-minded reply to my post. Your proposition to have my friend be exposed to such stone-throwing as I have been is something to consider. <P>One thousand one . . . one thousand two . . . one thousand three . . . <P>Nah . . . I don't think so. The issue is not whether we could benefit from honest and open feedback; rather, why endure the stereotypcial condemnation that comes with public scrutiny. The lady has shown remarkable courage while growing stronger in the sea of tradition. I encourage her to make informed decisions. Despite her efforts to save her marriage, almost to the point of submitting to the wishes of all those in her world who care for her, she clearly has found that in this country, we are all free people who actually do have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness . . . regardless of how difficult this may be for most people to accept. Like it or not, folks . . . women have the right to vote. And all I can really expect from her is to remain on the ballot . . . <P>If being with me makes her feel good, just shoot me . . . .

Carlton -<P>Not letting you go that easily.....<P>In response to the post where you addressed me:<P>What "line" are you referring to being drawn? The line of helping someone or the line of starting a relationship with someone who already has one with someone else? Please clarify that for me because I don't know what you mean. Thanks.<P>What do you mean by seeking a consolation prize? I don't get that one either?<P>I did not call you anything - I said that you were ACTING like.....<P>Why would you think that all is fair in love and war? Let alone compare that to the Laws of Moses!!!! There is not much fairness in war at all and with love - that's an individual concept and responsibility!!!! Not to mention it is a very bad cliche and a selfish one to boot!!!!<P>I mmend you on coming here to learn how to have a lasting relationship....I personally think that these concepts and techniques on communication, etc. should be taught in school!!!! Then there would be a lot less problems going on today. Things would be so much better if people just had the knowledge of how to deal with others and life in general<P>When you reference helping her to live her life for herself and not getting in her way - what did you mean by that? Does that mean that you will tell her of this site so that she may come and learn about relationships herself? Does that mean that you feel that you are not in her way now, even though she is married?<BR>I don't understand why you say that - please explain?<P>You say that you are asking nothing in return.....In return for what? Telling her of this site? Or for the support that you feel you have been giving her?<P>Space and time with her......She's married!!!!! Her husband and children deserve her space and time!!! I'm sorry if this hurts you but you don't fit with that!!!<P>You state that it is more giving than taking......how do you figure that?<P>Let's just look at the facts OK? Put emotion aside for a minute.<P>1) You and She have broken barriers.<P>2) Her husband is in the dark and not considered and respected in this "friendship"<P>3) The time and space and emotions she is sharing with you are not being used on her husband and children<P>4) Lies and sneakiness<P>5) No consideration of others by the two of you - Husband, children, family members, friends, etc. Total selfishness..<P>6) The destruction of a family unit<P>7) Husband devastated (perhaps)<P>8) Children completely devastated, confused, scared and stability & security taken away<P>9) Children will have to play the shuffle game (back and forth to both parents on "visits"<P>There are probably lots more but I've been wordy long enough.<P>My point is that - no Sir, you are not being that much of a giver. Neither one of you are!!!<P>Hope this helps you to see a little more of the whole picture. <P>Comfort and Insight to you,<P>Sheba <BR> <P>

Carlton,<P>I am sincere. I just have gone through so much pain, and I guess I'm just covering my eyes so I don't see what will happen. It is amazing how much of a cliche' I have become. I am not unique in this way, and neither is your friend. She was hurting, I was hurting, she reached out, I reached out, she found you, I found my OM, I crashed and burned, and she probably will too.<P>If you and she somehow make it through all this together, and somehow she doesn't hurt her children, and somehow you two live happily together forever, then more power to you. I have NEVER SEEN OR HEARD IT HAPPEN when a relationship begins with adultery. I'm so sorry if I sound judgemental, I honestly don't mean to. I am just SO SAD for you and she, and her children, and her H, who may or may not even realize that he's about to lose something very important to him.<P>Best wishes to you... and please consider having her at least visit this site. Okay??

Sheba . . . <P>1. Agreed. We have broken barriers. If not actually in the biblical sense, emotionally we have loved, and are in love.<P>2. Her husband is the least of my concerns. One day, I hope to meet him. Guess it is one of those things . . . accept the things you cannot change . . . who knows . . . <P>3. So what's the downside ? Should she stay in the quicksand when I reach out to her, even though I know I might go under with her? Can you guarantee the sun will rise tomorrow ? Just call me an old hippie, but I believe in today. Read it somewhere . . . " live for today - tomorrow has its own troubles " . . . some old hippie two thousand years ago, I think, said something like that . . <P>4. Lies and sneakiness ? Sounds like we are married, huh ? Oh well . . .<P>5. Always thinking of the children. As far as the others, maybe living for ourselves and not the happiness of others is what folks are supposed to do in a free society. Not my call . . . <P>6. Family unit was destroyed long before I met her. Why do so many stay in a destructive marriage "for the children" when the day will come and the kids will ask why ? Why did you ever stay married ? All we really wanted was for you to be happy, and now you are old and spent your life living for others . . . Go figure . . .<BR>8. Children who live in a family that has so much tension, denial and emotional abuse are better off ? Come on . . . <BR>9. The shuffle game ? Like, who gets the dog this weekend ? Stay in a horrible marriage "for the children" is so much an excuse for cowards . . . at least she has the heart to see what this very situation is doing to her children, and has the courage to change the things that she can. Not easy for most women today. Peer pressure, maternal pressure . . . not to mention the "tradtitional" views I see in here. <P>So Sheba, thank you for the dialog but I have always kept her personal security at the foremost of my concerns at all times. I neither wish to be an embarrassment to her social world, or lose the respect of her children. At the very least, please think that there is one man out here who does not think of himself and what is best for him all the time. After all, some of us actually do like women as people, ya know . . . <P>So I am trying to learn the skills necessary to keep myself in a good place while she actually does make an informed decision as to whether the separation will reconcile their marriage, or terminate it. For now, I remain supportive as best I can . . . and admittedly, I am also attempting to prepare myself for all the inevitable consequences of the years and years it takes for someone to become healthy after going what she has, and is, going through. <P>If remaining loyal to what I believe in to be so good, then my defects of character will just have to be.

Carlton - <P>You posted as I did.<P>In regards to your last post......<P>NOONE here is saying that you should abandon her to a live of horror in a marriage that she doesn't want or deserve!!!<P>What we are trying to say is that she must finish the life that she is in and THEN she can move into something with you.<P>She needs to do it that way - not just cuz it's right but also for herself!!!<P>She must understand and know that she tried everything in her power for her marriage. She must be able to look herself in the mirror and say that she did nothing wrong or underhanded and that she tried to make a go of keeping her family in tact.<P>With the way you describe her, she is a very giving person.......Giving people will not deal well (whether it's now or down the road) with not seeing things through in the proper manner. They will not be right with themselves if they have played a part in any form of lies or causing pain.<P>So, for her own good - she must be able to have the time and space AWAY from the distraction of your love and loyalty - you must not play a part in the ending of the marriage or she will eventually resent you......Do you see that?<P>Let her finish things with her husband the way they began - just the two of them!!!<P>If you feel that she is not strong enough to do this then send her here. She will not be treated badly, but she will be helped through whatever she feels she needs to do. She will not be applauded for having you in the equation but if you back away - at least for now - she will be able to become stronger and stand on her own two feet.<P>She needs that anyway, she cannot jump from feeling dominated in one relationship to being taken care of in another.....let her stand on her own!!!<P>Please consider this!!!<P>Sheba

Stop posting at the same time - will ya!<P>LOL!!!!<P>Have to go read what you wrote!

I feel so sorry for the children. <P> Carlton, you have a big job ahead of you. I hope you can COMPENSATE for everything your woman will be giving up. Hmmmmmm lets see, she will be possibly giving up her children, certainly her respectability, possibly a job or home or home town (if she has to move). She may be giving up her friends and extended family......she may be giving up financial security....I do not know if you are a wealthy man or not. She will probably be giving up some favorite possessions and certainly her past and past memories. She is risking the emotional well-being of her children.(but lets not worry about something so unimportant) She may be giving up EVERYTHING and getting YOU in return. I hope you are up for this, it is a big responsiblity and she will be expecting a lot. Gee, I hope you are worth it......<P>Of course, you will always be known as the man who broke up the marriage......but what the heck, you only go round once in life.

Sheba . . . <P>Maybe it's just me. I don't tell here what she needs, or does not need to be, or do, or say. When asked, I share what my experiences have been, and what my observations have convinced me to believe would be a reasonable result of this, or that choice in direction or decision. She has enough people telling her what is best for her right now. Me ? I am just a guy who cares for her, and hopes for the best for her. Who knows how things will turn out. There are no guarantees . . . but for today, we are good for one another and even though it isn't fair . . . it is good enough for me.<P>Bonny . . . I'm no body, okay ? Worth it ? Maybe . . . What value can be placed on absolute trust ? You know, that unconditional love most folks seem to only read about . . . I trust in my God, and in no man, or woman. So far, He has seen fit to permit us to give a damn about one another and not get lost in the world. So far, so good . . . .

That last post of yours does not address what the process is that she will have to go through to get out of her marriage if that is her wish!! What are your feelings about what I said about that?<P>Do you agree that she must do this without you in the picture?<P>Or do you feel that you can stay in the picture now and she doesn't have to do anything? <P>Were you desiring the separation and encouraged her towards it? (I'm sure it was encouragement through your own experiences and there was nothing selfish in your thinking at all!?!) Wink-Wink!!<P>Don't set yourself up for resentments Carlton!!! If you are truly as caring as you say then I'd hate to see you go through what will happen when those resentments come to fruition.<P>

Carlton,<P>Man, have you got all those cards laid out on the table or what??<P>You have it all figured out...she's in distress, you are there to help her through this mess, and that's how it's meant to be, or it wouldn't be like this.<P>You need to break down those defensive mechanisms, because no person on here will say anything that you can hear otherwise. See it from our standpoint for just a moment.. We all are dealing with betrayal, whether it be betrayer or betrayed. We've been through the gamut, and you haven't experienced it yet. We have much to share in way of expressing how this can affect a "LIFE" so it's imperative you listen, if only for just a moment..<P>You state that she is in a horrible marriage, and needs someone *you*, to help her through this, with your loving support, and your incredible friendship, closeness and intimacy, you can tackle all life has to offer. You indeed have something "special". If indeed, you are the KNIGHT in SHINING ARMOUR, ready to take her away, realize real life here for just a moment..(and I can just see your negativity now), but truly realize that when you are married, that there are ups and downs and in betweens that you go through TOGETHER..and overcome in the long run...this is what makes a marriage. We all go through this, and you're now saying to yourself...no one really understands what type of BOND we have...oh yeah, we do. But we also understand that this takes time and commitment to one another, it's not an easy road to travel, yet we do it...TOGETHER. And we overcome those obstacles..because it's what we made that commitment to do. <P>You're not married, no one can tell you here what you should and shouldn't do. But we can certainly advise you to what pain you can cause. You can dismiss the good advice you've been given, and can brush it off because you don't understand, but why are you here in the first place? I think you know why, because you know underneath it all it's wrong, and will cause a world of damage.<p>[This message has been edited by Madelyn (edited September 14, 1999).]

I am simply astounded that a person could<BR>possibly "JUSTIFY" cheating with the spouse<BR>of another. There are many marriages which <BR>have had problems, and they worked them out<BR>together. No one goes through life without<BR>problems in a relationship, whether it be<BR>marriage, child/parent relationships,<BR>or friendships. You seem like an extremely<BR>intelligent person. I'm certain you already<BR>are aware of this. I am also certain that you<BR>would feel great pain should this situation<BR>be reversed, and it were you having a wife whom you loved, cheat on you with another. The end of a long-term marriage, is equivalent (in pain), to that of the death of one of your closest loved ones. The pain of enduring the person most loved by you in a marriage being intimate with another...sharing their body, their deepest thoughts, their laughter, their sorrows, their hopes and their plans with another is beyond all imagining. I truly<BR>believe that if we could actually experience (for even a moment), another person's pain, we would all be better for it. <P>From what you have written, you have no <BR>intention of doing other than what you have<BR>been doing. Wrong, or not, you have justified yourself at each turn. When intense emotions<BR>are involved, we see only what we want to see. Perhaps the only way any of us can judge<BR>a matter clearly is to back away from it and<BR>view it from a different perspective.