im not going to get into the religious aspects of this....but i do have a question for all those who believe this is a choice gay people make to live this way.

can you please tell me the moment you conciously decided you were going to love men/women????

now this is a major life decision, so i know you will remember the exact moment, right? i remember being proposed to, knowing he was the one. i remember the moment we dicided to have children, i remember the exact moment for many other life choices i have made. since this is one of the biggest, please tell me about it???

can you please tell me the moment you conciously decided you were going to love men/women????

nikko why (not trying to be argumentative, just asking) is that important? The implication in your question is that we just do whatever we are programmed with...so serial adulterers should just continue on cause it is in their genes (especially since adultery is our genetic predispostion, not monogamy, it is a propagation thingy). Or pedofiles should just continue to....well, anyways you get the point.

Clearly no behaviour can be simply justified by saying we are born that way.... and boy, are people born with a whole BUNCH of unacceptable behaviours. Some we execute people for, some we celebrate and encourage, but the point is whatever argument we use facillitate (or not) homosexuality, being born that way is not the primary one.

btw, to those who think sexual orientation is strickly choice, it is not. The development of the many factors that make up sexuality is primarily determined gestationally, and there is a lot of evidence to support that. Whether it is actually genetic is unclear, and probably not, but that is splitting hairs. However, few homosexuals are truly born that way, (maybe only about 10% of those who claim to be). The majority of gays have made a deliberate choice (for many complicated reasons) to behave thusly. ALso the % of true homosexuals has remained fixed (near as the anthropologists can determine) for recorded history, suggesting there is some sort of connected benetit (since being gay is genetic suicide, and should have dissapeared from the gene pool millions of years ago) that is valuable enough to our species to have remained an outcome in our biochemistry (sexual orientation is a brain chemistry issue). If (as the scientists are coming to believe) homosexuality is a result of sexual differentiation issues early in gestation, then it is probably going to be "curable" in the near future, so all this will be moot within a 50-100 years. If so, that still raises the question of what will be the long term impact on our species. But one could (and we must) ask the same questions as we learn how to end all genetic/gestation issues we don't embrace...such as spina bifida, or cerebral palsy, of CF, and hundreds more.

In any event, this (same sex marriage) is a public policy issue, not an individual rights issue. Gays allready have full protection of the law for their persons and property, and can live in (and have ceremonies about) anything they want. What they seek is the economic benefits (health insurance coverage for "spouses", favorable tax beneits, favorable "family" benefits by both the private and public sectors, focus on their special needs, especially health..etc. etc.). These are essentially all economic issues evolved over millenia to promote a heterosexual monogamous societal paradigm for the procreating and nurturing of children...such paradigm (the nuclear family) being seen as the paradigm of choice for a stable, healthy society which then benefits ALL of it's members...

The only arguments which make sense should be relevant ones to societies benefit. So gay marriage advocates have to prove (to me, and others who understand this is a public policy issue) that changing our societal paradigm bestows a greater benefit to society than not doing so. That argument cannot be made, there is no benefit to society in validateing homosexuality (and thereby diminishing the preferred status of heterosexual marriage) that I have ever seen. A fact recognized by many gays themselves who oppose recognizing homosexual marriage as equivalent to heterosexual marriage.

This is not a "feel" good, be nice liberal argument, this is substantially messing with the underpinnings of our socio-economic system, and has to be assessed on that basis alone.

i dont have alot of time but will try to answer most of this. its important because people use the arguement its a CHOICE. i dont believe it is. just as i dont believe being a pedophile is a choice. i think some people are just wired that way. is it right(pedophilia), he// no. it is wrong because an innocent party(the child) is being harmed. it should be punishable just like murder. but that doesnt change the fact that it is a ingrained desire.

with all the programs to re-wire pedophiles, none have worked that i know of, besides sheer will or chemicle castration. neither of them however change the desire.

are there outside influences--of course. just as in murder there are ouside circumstances. there are serial killers and there are people who just snap--is the person who kills a wandering spouse the same as a serial killer. no, not in my eyes. not in the laws eyes either.

i just think they should be given some rights that we all share. i know of a couple that one became ill. he died and his family came in and took everything. financially they both contributed the same, but his "family" who i might add wherent there to share in his life should not had been given precedent over his husband. it was a horrible battle.

i just think we have enough pain in this world and love should not be one of them.

I'm just interested in asking:

Does anyone find homosexuality morally wrong for reasons other than "the Bible says so"?

Bonobo monkeys have homosexual sex. They did not read the Bible I guess! (Just a joke) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Morality is based eiher on 'religious' grounds... bibilic, koranic, (faiths) etc...
and/or in the natural law... the law based in the heart (and universal... absolute)

When one adopts 'relativistic morality'...
...there is NO basis for morality... NONE!
...and then with that 'relativity' we can freely devolve into the "bonobo" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

----------

Is there a reason that the bonobo are called (the "Left Bank Chimps")?... could be.

From Frans de Waal (world's leading authority on the bonobo):
(The bonobo as)... Professor de Waal describes is a society of mamma's boys, permanently subject to female control. It is also an erotic society, with sexual contacts conducted steadily, ingeniously, and with no discernible concern for sex or age...

The evolutionary belief (shared by the good Professor) that 'these' are our closest cousins...
...must be the reason for... adultery... sodomy... and must have have been read (NOT?) from the bible either (joke?) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
...is this aberrant lifestyle a leftover from the bonobos?

---------

Chris mentioned... as long as (it) 'is not rubbed in my face'...

The time is coming... and is already here on the cable...
...in due time... on public TV as well... (albeit... small bits at a time)...

Bravo's 'Queer Eye [for the Straight Guy]'

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A56565-2003Jul14.html

'Queer Eye': (David) Collins dreamed up a show wherein a straight guy would undergo an intense three-day makeover (or, as Collins prefers, "make-better") under the direction of five professional gay men, aka "the Fab Five." The payoff at the end of each self-contained hourlong episode is that Mr. Hetero's image overhaul is leading up to a big event in his life, like a marriage proposal or job interview.

... the clearly demeaning message is that heteros... are inferior!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Jim/NSR

That's an interesting point that nikko brings up. Pedophilia and adultry directly harm other people. Gay marriage does not. You might not like the idea of gay people living together, but it's not harming you directly.

I think that society should recognize the gay union the same way it does a heterosexual union. Maybe the religions don't have to recognize it if their diety's don't recognize the union, but there should be a way for two people to be viewed as 'married' by society.

The fact is we do know gay people, that are living like married folks. They are your neighbors, family, friends, doctors, they are in the armed services, but we still don't make it "our" issue, or our business to query them about it. I mean, it is not a crime to love someone. And if you want to be bound to someone for life, I guess it is pretty serious. Gay or straight.

As in heterosexuals you know. Some ya like and some you don't.

<small>[ July 17, 2003, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: WFLOWER ]</small>

I usually only hang on D & D, but there's a couple of things here that I've been mulling over.

I'm also of the opinion that sexual orientation is not an issue of "choice." The behavior OTOH, is something one chooses to do.

As this behavior (same sex couples loving each other, having sexual relations, and wanting monogamous relationships) does not in itself harm others, then I really don't see why everyone gets their panties in a bunch. Whatever consenting adults do in their bedrooms is their business.

As for the "changing the societal paradigm" issue, I would argue that the paradigm is changing all on its own, and the question is whether or not everyone's coming along for the ride! Furthermore, I don't think legitimizing homosexual unions will have any negative impact on traditional marriage.

As we all know here, that institution is on shaky ground for reasons that have nothing to do with the "gay agenda." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Again, the paradigm of the "nuclear family" has been and will continue to change regardless of whether or not homosexual unions are recognized.

As far as a societal benefit, I would think that encouraging gays to be in monogamous, committed relationships (with legal and financial benefits as an enticement) would be a good thing.

Right now, the paradigm is "hide the fact you're gay, and hide even more if you're in a committed gay relationship!" Not only is there no incentive to bind yourself to another person, there is a big incentive to stay within the "underground" and seek validation from wherever it comes...good or bad.

I'm guessing that if the validation came from society at large, the ~10 percent of the population that is gay would be healthier, happier, and more likely to contribute to society.

As for the folks who use Leviticus to justify their position on homosexuality, I've got news:

You'd best put down that bacon-wrapped scallop, and throw out the pork tenderloin you were thawing for dinner, 'cause according to Leviticus, you're sinning, too.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

There is a more lengthy discussion of this at the Gay Marriage post (on the "Emotional Needs" forum)...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Jim/NSR

A question for those of you who see no problem with gay relationships or gay marriages-----

What if it was your grown child?

Is it STILL OK "as long as it doesn't harm others",,"two consenting adults",,"to each his own" ??

Or what is it was your xspouse, choosing this lifestyle and involving your children? Is it still OK?

Just wondering if your opinions change if the situation does affect you personally ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

no---doesnt change a thing. growing up my best friend(a guy) was gay. i also have a gay brother--and yes he is married. so i guess it qualifies me. as far as the if it was someone you loved and it did effect you----well i wish i didnt have to see the pain they went through. i wish i didnt have to see the disappointed looks on parents faces. i wish i didnt have to see the deceit just to live and be happy.

i guess the best way to say it is he was the same pain in the a$$ that use to torture me as a child and young adult. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> none of that changed, he was still the person i allways loved. who he loved wasnt any of my business. he is happy and i am happy for him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nerlycrzy:
<strong>A question for those of you who see no problem with gay relationships or gay marriages-----

What if it was your grown child?

Is it STILL OK "as long as it doesn't harm others",,"two consenting adults",,"to each his own" ??

Or what is it was your xspouse, choosing this lifestyle and involving your children? Is it still OK?

Just wondering if your opinions change if the situation does affect you personally ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, it is *because* of my children that I changed my opinion... I used to think "as long as it doesn't affect me, I don't care"... then I got religion and thought, "wrong, wrong, wrong"... and then one of my children came to me and said she was bisexual. It was at about this time that I also began to question the fundamental church and it's dogma.

Put that all together, and you have a mother who realized that I don't give a rat's bum if my kid is straight, gay, or dates outside of their race... and believe me, my ex-H and I had many arguments about all of these situations. For me, I just want my child happy, healthy, and to be treated with love and respect.

By the way, I did some research, and do you have any idea of how many teenagers hate themselves and/or ultimately kill themselves because they have nobody to go to when they realize they are gay?

I will never be someone who judges homosexuality again.

I've already thought long and hard about my boys, and wondering if any (or all?) of them are, or will be, gay when they grow older. If that happens, I only hope that I can embrace them the same as ever... b/c all that matters to me, is that they're my sons. I love them unconditionally.

Karen

You can love your kids unconditionally but that doesn’t mean that you have to condone/celebrate their gay relationship(s).

ok---now the mamma in me is pissed--not a good thing.

first off-chris, do you have any kids??? if so i pray to god they never do anything outside what you believe is moral or legally correct. as a parent you would shun them if they committed a crime??? god i pray not. or is it just if it upsets your sexual sensibility?!

if you are not a parent--please dont consider it if this is really what you believe. to grow up as a kid is hard enough. to grow up as a kid knowing you could be tossed aside by your own parent if you step out of bounds is horrible.

im sorry if this offends you but it is how i feel

eeek. my, the pot's been stirred. think for a moment about what genetics has been unable to accomplish over the years. while natural selection in the wild is a perfectly healthy theory, it gets a little muddy when applied to humans. some may argue that if homosexuality is genetic then why hasn't natural selection done it's job in thinning the herd? the same reason, still, that there are kids born with down's syndrome, or congenital heart defects, or cleft palettes. the list can go on.

we talk about monogomy v. adultery and agree that there are moral absolutes in the mix here. adultery? yes ... morally wrong. genetically speaking, even the harleys argue that we're hardwired for it. why is it so difficult to make the leap that some folks can be hardwired to be sexually attracted to people of the same sex?

my sister is gay. i know she didn't choose it. she's said she would have rather been straight because she perceives it as far less complicated/stressful (although i tell her it's not, really).

i guess what it comes down to is that i don't understand my own sexuality, really. what it is about the curve of a woman's hips or the shape of her breasts that makes that attractive to me? who knows? i didn't decide this one day. i just do. if i don't understand mine, then it's reasonable to assert that gay people don't understand theirs, either. how then can i even begin to understand someone else's sexuality?

i say let gay people marry if they want. they couldn't do much worse than heterosexuals have.

Condoning and celebrating, to me, are very different things.

Would I allow them to have sex in my home? No. Straight or gay... not under MY roof, thank you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> In this case, what I don't know can't hurt me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> HOWEVER, if they were united in marriage... well... I guess that would make it okay, wouldn't it? Hmmm... I still don't want MY kids having sex in MY house. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Would I walk with them in a pride day parade? Hmmm.... only if they'll walk with me in a parade to celebrate being straight. Both ideas, to me, are silly, btw.

I would ACCEPT their choices... b/c just as MB teaches us... we have NO CONTROL over anyones actions but our own. And since I would hate to not have my boys in my life, acceptance is what I would offer, again, because I love them unconditionally.

Karen

It's not a matter of judging. If God says it's wrong, it's wrong! As a Christ follower, I have to say I do not agree with homosexual marriages.
Chrisk said it well. One can love unconditionally, but doesn't mean you accept it, condone it or celebrate it! Two different issues. The question was not do you like,love any homosexual people. The ? was about is it ok for them to marry!
I've had friends,and clients that were gay people. Very nice people. But it's wrong and against God.
God still loves them just as he does everyone.But he's not going to make an allowance when it comes to judgement and sins are read.
He will judge according to his Written word and commandments. He's the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Never changing.
The question didn't say would you hate a family member if they were homo's. It ask if you agree on marriages for them. God didn't make Adam and Andy, he made Adam and EVE! Nor did he make Eve and Elizabeth!
Doesn't matter who they are in your life, they will burn if not redeemed by repentance and salvation through Christ.
Same as any of the rest of us for others sins!
Nough said.
LouLou

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ladyLou:
<strong>The question didn't say would you hate a family member if they were homo's. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, if you will look at the top of page 3, Nerly *did* ask about it being a family member, so that's what we've been discussing since then.

edited to change page number.

<small>[ July 18, 2003, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: new_beginning ]</small>