Weird-this wasn't the title when I posted??? Or am I going crazy???

Z'Mom,

You're not crazy. I am. I was trying to play Mimi's game of changing the title frequently to get responses. So I changed it. But I also have two threads running. This one, which is my story, and the other one, for Plan B support. I inadvertently switched titles on the wrong one.

So sorry!

Meanwhile, I just went and read your H's postings. I can't believe he is avoiding you the way he is. He has got to grow up and face the consequences of his actions. Be a man and face you, live with his guilt. OK, he did something wrong. The most important thing is that YOU have chosen to forgive him. Now he needs to DO THE WORK. No cop-out excuses like "reading books or counseling doesn't work for me." That's crap!

And he posted, asking for advice. He got wonderful advice, but seems to just want sit around licking his wounds. That does no one any good.

I think my H may have some of those same feelings. He came back after 6 weeks of Plan B, then moved out 6 weeks later. He ended up back with the OW, but I think that even if he had been able to get past the addiction part of the A, he was still in disbelief that I would forgive him. I hope he can get over the A and get past that issue and make a strong marital recovery effort. We shall see.

I know what you are saying-he does need to grow-his problem is (I think), he is in this hopelessness mode-nothing works...anyway, I just posted on my thread an update, here it is: I will post an update tomorrow night...
" posted August 10, 2003 02:41 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, so I just got a call from my H at 4:30 pm asking if he can come over tomorrow after his grievance meeting to talk...He said he just came back from one of his freaky excursions--a few months back he took off and called me at 2AM-he just drove for like 7 hours thinking...Well yesterday he took off ended up about 4-5 hours away and was just on his way back now..spent the day at the beach by himself slept in his car, so he is hoping we can talk tomorrow...???? Maybe he did some soul searching I am not sure, let's hope for the best....

While I was typing this he just called again and said that on the 23rd (that is my weekend with Zach)it is his boss's bbq and he wants Zach to go as well as me..I said that Tom(his boss) and I spoke of it and he said managers and spouses were invited (I cannot really qualify myself as his spouse right now), so I assumed I wouldn't be going especially because of plan b...I said we can discuss it closer to the day, he said no problem....

I will let you know what happens tomorrow evening..I am praying for some good news..."

you hang in there too....you seem to be getting good and strong!!! D <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

ISGirl - Not sure where to post, here or on your other thread. How do you keep up with both? Fast fingers and faster mind? Good for you!

I'm in Plan B, too, over 7 months now. WH moved in w/OW New Year's Eve. At first it was S-O-O hard, I couldn't believe he could be doing this. Every day my first thought was that I was alone. I kept thinking any day now he'll come to his senses. But he didn't. Our 25th anniversary came and went, our D's graduation from college was celebrated without him, although he was at the ceremony, but I didn't see him. I guess the addiction is just too strong to let go of OW.

You know what, it gets better. The more you detach from the WS, the better you will feel. Don't worry about their A. There's nothing you can do about it. It has to run its course. My story doesn't have an ending yet, but I can assure you that I feel so much stronger now than I did last winter/spring. Things that I used to do with WH I now do with other family members, my kids, friends, co-workers. I've done some new things, too. I've grown a lot. Reading the posts here have opened my eyes to stuff about A's, but also to stuff about personal growth. My WH and I may never regain our M, but I'll always have to live with myself, so that investment is a good one.

Maybe your WH has to get beyond the fantasy stage with his OW to realize she's "just like every other woman", to borrow a line from Mimi's WH. That will take time. My WH contacted me last night after all this time, maybe his fantasy is crumbling. He sure wasn't ready to contact me before this.

I hope you have a good day. Thanks for all your effort on this board.

Lablady

Me BS 48
WH 48
M 25 yrs
S 25, D 23
OW 45 widow/coworker
WH had 2 A's 15 yrs ago
This D-day 7/02
WH goes back forth btwn me and OW last summer/fall
WH moves in with MIL 10/02
WH moves back home "for the holidays"
WH moves in w/OW New Year's Eve
Plan B letter sent 2/03
Miminal contact all winter/spring
8/9/03 WH contacts me to talk about reconciling
I'm skeptical, but I'll listen when the A is over

Z'Mom,

I just finished reading your entire thread, only to see you had copied your latest post and pasted it here. Sweetie, I wish you luck, but I continue to be concerned that you and he aren't in a strong, clean Plan B. It seems like every time you tell him no contact, he finds a reason to break the silence. From what I have read here, that is their means of (1) keeping in contact with you, and (2) keeping you off-balance. You will never find your strength if you keep permitting him to get to you.

Question: did you actually send a Plan B letter? I know that the OW is history, but did you ever give him anything in writing? I believe that you need to clearly, specifically spell out what your expectations and conditions are...when he is able to make contact (regarding Zack or regarding very important household or financial issues). It needs to be in writing.

Believe me, I totally understand the temptation to see him, to respond to every single time he reaches out to you, but that is not good for YOU. The first thing right now is to get yourself well, to move to a point where the continued pain of his constant involvement in your life is removed. Then you will be in a better place to meet with him and with the MC.

JMO.

Still, I wish you luck!

lablady,

LOL! Only two threads, actually, and I just keep 'em both active, hoping to attract posters.

Glad you posted. I had read your 221 day thread earlier, and I certainly wish I had answers to all the questions you asked, but I am MUCH newer at this than you. Even tho' D-Day was a year ago, our most recent Plan B only started 7/28.

I too spent my wedding anniversary alone. Memorial Day weekend, 19 years. I think that our spending that day apart was part of the impetus for him to decide to try to come home, for it was soon thereafter that he got in touch and said he was giving up on the OW. Unfortunately for us, it was a false reconciliation.

Yes, I have loved Mimi's H's comment about the OW being just like any other woman. Mimi has also told me that H & OW went away together, met her family, etc. Isn't it amazing that this goes on? Can you imagine your son or daughter bringing home their new "significant other" who is wearing a wedding ring?

I was impressed with your strength with which you responded to your H about reconciliation. You're one for all of us to look up to. You said Plan B, and you meant Plan B. No more triangles!!!!

Good luck to you. It sounds like your H may also be close. But make sure you know what you want in the M before you permit him to just move back in. Get some good advice from the vets here. They will help you a lot.

ISG

ISGirl: "Really separated for over a year now? You have no kids, how are you holding on for so long while there is continued contact?"

J.R.: Well, after I left, I had a rough little while, adjusting and all. We'd gone from our family's homes to our home directly, so I had nothing to "compare" the experience to, nothing to fall back on.

But after I adjusted, I grew accustomed to my routine. I was in a pretty firm PB for the most part, when there was some contact, it was similar to what MM described - not offering to meet EN's.

Also, I doubted her life was really "fun" during this time. She claimed she was "working on herself" - but of course she sees OM at work every day. I slowly detached myself - more and more until my feelings for her started to change - seeing her more as a stranger. That was the goal as per SAA's "guide" for PA and PB.

"I do not know how I could deal with this for that length of time."

I've heard it said that women are far less likely to be able to do long Plan A's for example. I personally think it's my stubborn streak. My W once said during this, "You're almost as stubborn as I am." Well, when I'm acting from a very principles-based foundation, I can be infinitely stubborn, and it's no longer "stubborn" but "strong, confident, self-respecting", etc. Cool!

My BIL talked to WH this weekend. BIL has been listening to my story and the whole family is, as you might guess, in disbelief and extremely upset over WH's actions. After the talk last night, BIL emailed me and said he believed that the no communication with each other was not necessarily the right thing for us now, that we needed to sit down and have a heart-to-heart and discuss our grievances and try to work on the M. He says he thinks he convinced H to make this conversation happen...believes the longer it is prolonged the longer it will take to heal.

Now this is contrary to MB philosophy and the whole Plan B. But I am wondering if perhaps WH opened up to BIL about what some of his issues are with our M and maybe, just maybe we could accomplish something if we talked. I wouldn't accept any efforts at recovery until he agreed to give up the OW, but I thought that maybe we both might learn something. I know, I know, there's no such thing as a modified Plan B, but I hate to give up the opportunity. Of course, that also assumes that WH will contact me and actually want to talk. It may not happen.

What do you think?

ISGirl-

Does BIL know about MB concepts? If you explained to him what you are doing in Plan B, would he understand? My MIL said the same things, that WH and I need to communicate, we'd never get anywhere with the silent treatment (Plan B). I explained it to her, and I think she got it, at least the parts about protecting my love and myself, and about letting WH find out if he really wanted to be with OW.

If your WH is anything like mine, no amount of talking will guide him out of the fog until he has seen for himself that the grass is certainly not greener with OW. I know what you mean about missing an opportunity talk, but you know that a WS's words are notoriously not trustworthy. He's got to end the A before you two can talk.

I'm angry that my WH had the nerve to call me and test the waters of reconciliation before ending his A! If the R with OW isn't working, then why would his R with me have anything to do with them ending their A? I am not a safety net! Or a second choice! ISGirl think about the conversation you and WH might have if you talked. Would he be comparing you to OW? Making a decision based on which of you made him the better offer? It seems to me that you'd be better off staying in Plan B and letting your WH know you will keep your boundaries. JMVHO

Lablady

Not getting much response to this question, so am bumping to Mortarman and other Vets.

Lablady, what you say does make sense. Yes, I did explain the MB program and NC to BIL. He said he understood it and it made sense. THEN he talked to H over the weekend.

I don't know what H may have said to him, but BIL came away with the idea that we need to "put aside the rules of separation and no communication and sit down, air all our 'grievances'" (whatever that may mean). He said after talking to H he (BIL) feels H still loves me.

When I got the email from BIL, I wrote back, "But the real issue, BIL, is that H is unwilling, or incapable, of giving up the OW. Did you guys talk about that?" To which there has been no response. I imagine BIL is not comfortable talking about whatever details there are there. But without solving that issue, what could there be to talk about?

Truth be known, my H is a conflict avoider, and if BIL pressured him enough and told him repeatedly that he needed to sit down and talk to me, H would have agreed and told BIL he was probably right, even if he had no intention of doing so. That may very well be what is happening here. Only time will tell, if H tries to contact me regarding a conversation.

ISGirl-

Yes, giving up the OW IS the real issue as you say. And if your BIL has pushed your conflict-avoiding WH into agreeing to talk to you, then there's not much value to it, is there? As difficult as it is to detach from the person you have loved and lived with for so many years, detaching will keep you from getting hurt while WH is still in the fog. Be strong!

Lablady

ISGirl,

Lablady has given you excellent advice!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When I got the email from BIL, I wrote back, "But the real issue, BIL, is that H is unwilling, or incapable, of giving up the OW. Did you guys talk about that?" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">EXACTLY!! The REAL issue is the OW. NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING productive is going to happen UNTIL she is gone!

If you go back to my posts from last fall during our three false recoveries, you will see what happens when you give the WS an inch. They take a mile...and still stya with the OP in the end.

I just got done reading Dr. Dobson's "Love Must Be Tough." Get it...read it. The central theme to marital breakdown is a lack of respect. In your case, you have set boundaries. If you back down, he WILL NOT respect you. He will have gotten you to lower your boundaries, to go back on your word. You told him in the PBL that marital reconciliation was POSSIBLE when the OW is gone. That is what YOU promised. You stated until that happened, that NC will have to be maintained, out of love, in order to save your love. He KNOWS this!

Now, you back down, with NO indication that ANYTHING has changed...and you are just setting yourself up for a false deal...and starting all over again. Your husband is angry because he is in pain. He is missing you. He needs an "ISGirl" fix. You give it to him, and then he can just step back to square one, and all this time you have put in with Plan B will have to start ALL OVER AGAIN!

If you go back to my posts in December and January, you will see what I did in Plan B. Of course, there was SOME contact with my wife, due to the fact that I had the kids. But VERY minimal. But go read what happened in the middle of January, six weeks into Plan B. You will see that my wife showed up at my door under false pretenses. She SAID she wanted to see the kids for a minute. What she WANTED to do was talk to me. In this case, since she was already in my face and talking, I just stood and listened. I contributed next to nothing to the conversation, except to tell her that the PBL still applied, and if what she was saying was true (that it was over with the OM, that she was missing me, that she wanted to work on herself so she could get things back together), then OM had to be gone first. She was surprised when she went to leave when I told her that until OM was gone, I didnt want her to ever do this again (show up at my door unannounced). That we were still in NC. She was a little upset because I wouldnt "work with" her, but guess what? She told me later that it was probably that night that sold her to do what she had to do. Because I stood my ground, she gained a lot more respect for me. Because I didnt back down and enter into the conversation, except to reiterate my position on getting rid of the OM...she was able to gain a lot more respect for me. And with that, came the motivation to do the right thing.

ISGirl, you need to stick the course. But there will come a time where contact will need to be made. He may be trying to make the right move, and need some encouragement. Maybe that time is now. I dont know. But you must not break down and get into relationship talks, or anything else UNTIL the OW is gone.

So, what to do? You might write an email back to BIL stating how you feel. Again reiterate that OW MUST be gone. Tell him how you feel about your husband. Let BIL take the message back to your husband.

This is NOT going to be EASY for your husband to do (getting rid of OW). But it is VERY, VERY simple. He is going to have to reach down, "grab a pair," and be a man. Sure it will hurt. Sure it will be difficult...and scary. But many things in life are, and what distinguishes a man from a boy is the ability to overcome those doubts, fears and pains...and do what is right.

Send Plan B back at him. Make sure BIL understands that you are doing this out of love. That your husband has to do this on his own. That no problems can be fixed until he is back in the marriage.

ISGirl, you know the routine. You may be close to the end of this. We will see. like you said, it may just be the pressure your BIL put on him. But you wont know which one it is by talking with him. Let him talk through your BIL. all you have to say back is what is in the PBL. It says it all. It says you know of the problems of the past, and are willing to work on them. It says you are saving your love for him by having NC. All ofthis is being done, and he will get what he REALLY wants only when OW is gone.

Stay the course, ISGirl. Once he shows that he is TRULY ready to come off that fence, then you can encourage him a little. But you have no evidence yet that he is doing anything. At least in my wife's case, she came looking for me, she wouldnt leave when I told her to...she said she HAD to get off her chest what she had to say and was willing for me to "go off" on her, if need be. She was making all the effort. So I let her talk...then pushed PBL back on her.

Two weeks later, we were in counseling together, she was spending some nights at home while we worked on things. Two months later, when we were both comfortable, she came home.

You can do this. All your hard work WILL pay off if you just let it finish growing. Have faith!

In His arms.

Just read the tail-end of this IS, but if OW is in the picture, how can you negotiate anything? How will any of your demands be taken seriously when he has someone providing his ENs?

Lablady, Mortarman, A.M.Martin,

You are all right. Of course you are. That's why this board is so wonderful. Because when someone starts to do something not in the Plan, we have each other to talk sense into us.

This morning, soon after ready Lablady's post and before Mortarman posted, I sent BIL an email (actually 2). In the first I said I appreciated and understood that he thought we needed to set aside the NC rule, but that the truth was that as long as H is involved with the OW,I cannot have a conversation with him about our M. I told him I was not being stubborn, and would really love to talk to my H, but the fact is that no marital recovery can even begin to be discussed until he has agreed to stop having an A, and he is not doing that.

In the second email, I tried to explain further - that this was not a separation about mere marital "incompatibility" - about a couple who had problems about anger control, jealousy, money issues, etc., that could be addressed by sitting down and talking about the problems. No, this separation is about a man who chose infidelity. I said I hoped that he realized no amount of talking can help our M until WH makes a commitment to the M and to me, and resolves to end the infidelity. Talking won't work; action must occur first, and WH must be the one to take that action. It is nothing I can control.

I further explained that my H and I had been very happy (IMO) prior to all this. We spent every waking hour of every weekend together, we were in constant communication during our workdays, and all seemed blissful until the A was suspected and discovered. I wanted BIL to know that if WH told him we were "having problems" that they were manufactured on the part of WH to justify his behavior, or they were real, but unexpressed to me in the M.

I am pretty sure that BIL is on overload from all this - first from talking to my WH and now from the content of my email messages. I haven't heard any response from him, from his W or from my other SIL, all of whom I copied on the email. But I felt it important that he knew - that they all knew - exactly why there can be NC, and what it will take for me to begin to listen to any talk of marital recovery.

Thanks for all your input. My head is cooler now and I have lost that sudden impulse to listen to BIL and talk to WH.

ISG

<small>[ August 12, 2003, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: ISGirl ]</small>

Good for you ISG, you have a couple of kahoona's there, for sending that e-mail to his family. I thought yesterday thinking if he wants to talk about M maybe it would be a good idea, but that was wrong, obviously this is not a marital issue it is an affair issue, and until the affair is removed then the marriage can't be there....I agree with all, that as long as the OW is in the picture then there is nothing to recover, so why have the conversation....I got chills reading your last post, you mean business and getting good at it...

Hang in there....
D

ZM,

Your post made me cry...literally. It is so good to have someone believe in me, in what I am doing, and how I desperately want to save my M. You have been a great source of comfort and support, even more than those I trust and call my friends. As one would expect, they merely want to protect me, and not support my efforts. They do not understand MB (and by the grace of God, hopefully will never have to), so some friends say "trash him, good riddance," while the others go "Oh, ISG, you poor thing..." sounding as if they were just told that I was dying of some painfully incurable disease...all pity.

Thank you so much. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

{{{{{{{{{{{{zacharysmom}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
ISG

(((((((((ISG))))))))))) back at you...I support you totally...We may not have totally the same issues but are wanting the same result, our marriage....I know what you mean, I have gotten to the point where relying on friends is not easy. I had one very close friend say :"I was telling my sister the other day that I don't know how you do it, one day he wants you the next he doesn't. You are so strong, can't say I could do it", I was hurt and angry for a couple reasons, first, she is talking to her sister about MY personal affairs-has she told her everything and who else??? And to say he doesn't want me, she has missed my point, it is not him battling his lack of wanting me or our family it is him battling him....I was hurt and don't think I care to confide in her too much, I don't need pity and I don't need justification, just understand that I am standing behind him. I told her, you have no idea what you would do in this situation, 2 years ago, I would never forgive, I honestly believed that. Year and a half ago, I couldn't imagine not forgiving....If you ever just want to vent I am hear...my e-mail address is dlmelanson@eastlink.ca.....anytime...You are doing good!!!

Everyone,

I think for a while I will leave my very recent, very active participation in MB. I made some recent posts on Cerri's thread, where, in a fit of anger and frustration, agreed to do things that went against my very nature: writing letters to the OW's employer, contacting her family, my WH's employer, etc. They were read by my WH, who immediately threatened D because of those planned actions.

Today he and I talked. In person. Even tho' we are in Plan B. When the conversation started, he was ready to make an appointment with an attorney this afternoon. He said "we" were ready to D. I told him no, I was not...perhaps he was, but I loved him. I have stood by him through this affair, through cancer, and through 19 years of being married. I had no intention of leaving thru divorce now.

As we talked, he also brought up the potential problems with some of the advice being given out here about sending letters to people disclosing affair partners. There are all kinds of legal action (I have done a bit of research on this now) that can be taken by the person about whom the information is written.

My WH is starting IC/MC next week. While he is not ready yet to give up the OW, I am holding on to the fact that he is going for counseling. And he is taking Cerri's list of questions to ask. That is a positive for me to hold onto as well. If he had no interest in saving our M, he would not take that approach. And at least he has been honest with me about his present inability to give her up.

We both agreed that we have had many, many happy years and he loves me still. He said all this would be much easier if he didn't. I told him I wanted him well, wanted him home, wanted our marriage and wanted the opportunity to make him happy as we used to be.

I know all of this flies in the face of the MB philosophies. But there are times that we have to trust our gut (just as when we suspect the A in the first place). My gut this time told me it was not my style to write the letters to strangers that were recommended here. Instead of defending my position and stating how I felt, I reacted with anger, frustration, and actually all I was doing was "venting." I never intended to write those letters. There are also times that we have to put our faith in God. And that is what I did this afternoon. I prayed for the calm heart that all on this board talk about. I prayed for the words I needed, I prayed for guidance in terms of whether a D was the right move or not. The answers were given to me and I have dealt with this situation my way. It may not be the MB way, and who knows what the path ahead may bring to my life.

I will continue to read and post here, but I must remember that above all else, I must be true to myself. I must be honest with myself and with others here and, if it doesn't fit, don't wear it.

I don't mean to discredit Plan B. We may remain in it. I just do not know yet.

ISG

ISG,

I wish you luck! I see so many positive things happening here, and a lot of them have to do with you sticking to your guns.

I hope for you and your husband's sake, thet ISG's way will work. I really do. Your WH appears to be considering his return home. His anger at you because of your response to his inappropriate and immoral behavior is not justified.

I am not sure what laws you are speaking of, but it is perfectly legal to say the truth. if your husband is having an affair with another woman, it is perfectly legal and just to tell others this is true.

Affairs LOVe secrecy. Even once they are discovered by the BS, they still want no accountability. You have tried to protect your husband and love him back to you. So far, that hasnt worked. If it had, then yes, it would be better that few people knew about his behavior. But you must understand...what you were going to do was tell others the TRUTH! he has no right to be angry about that. If you were saying he was a rapist, and he had never raped someone, then he has a right to be mad. But he is an adulterer...and if called that, the only thing he can really say is "guilty as charged."

Again, I will pray for you and your husband. I know God would NEVER tell you to leave your marriage (he only PERMITS divorce in your case). So, follow His guidance and stay close to Him.

In the end, that is all Plan B is about. The BS getting close to God and protecting his love, and the WS left alone with God...in their sin.

Good luck to you and your husband. I wish you well!

In His arms.

I wish you would reconsider but I guess I understand. One of my biggest mistakes was leaving this Board. I fell under my WH's charms and his POV.

PLAN B- modified, of course, has worked for me. Not just in regards to my marriage but also in building my self-esteem.

God Bless You, IS.

Come back if and when you need us. Hope you don't.