<<<How would you rate your listening skills?
Low
Average
Good
Excellent>>>

I would rate them as "good," though feel free to tell me I have none at all.

I know exactly what he wants. I don't think the problem is that I don't understand him or that I haven't heard him. He wants me to accept that he did nothing wrong with his female co-workers, to accept that it was all just normal business, to accept that these women are all really good people, to accept his saying "I'm sorry I hurt you" as a real and sufficient apology, and to go on with my life like nothing ever happened.

Right?

The problem is that I have reams of evidence to the contrary, not the least of which is the broken heart and state of shock I've been walking around with for months and years.

All of you are right, including Star*fish. I will never change his mind on this and if I want to stay married I will have no choice but to accept all the things I listed above.

But Star*fish, you are wrong to say that I would not have forgiven him and worked with him if he had apologized to me for his actions and stopped protecting the OP. I know very well that I cannot change what happened and neither can he, but I honestly believed these other things were reasonable requests on my part -- to say nothing of also being things I *needed* right down to my very soul.

That's why I asked for them, and that's why I am destroyed to know I will never have them.

He's like the guy who robs a bank and gets away with it. Then he says he's very, very sorry he robbed the bank -- but he's not going to give the money back. Then he's astounded when some people can't believe he's really sorry.

Not trying to belittle your view. Believe me look at my name and know that I have been there! But then I spoke with a friend's mother and she summed it up for me. WHAT ARE YOU GAINING IN KEEPING YOUR ANGER? DOES IT MAKE YOU FEEL GOOD? ARE YOU HAPPY? You are upset because he is not thinking like you want him to think. There is nothing you can do about that. If that were the case and people could control the mindset of others, we wouldn't have WAR, RACISM etc., all the ugly things in the world! Wouldn't that be lovely. But it is a dream that I don't think will ever come true. Is it fair that the WS goes through life without a care in the world? NO, but life is not fair which we all know. So what do you do now? How do you cope through the ugliness within the world and people? You try to make changes within yourself that brings peace to you and only you. If you are at peace with how you feel then fine, you own it. But from your post you are not happy at all. If you don't do something different what you will become is a bitter old woman. Don't let someone elses failing take your joy.

<small>[ July 23, 2003, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: trying2_4give ]</small>

What benifit do you get out of your anger?

Here's what I got out of my anger .... when I was angry.

A deep despair was hidden
I felt protected by my anger
I felt morally superior when I was angry
Intimacy was avoided
My personal responsibility was overruled
I had a chance to scapegoat
I did not have to look at myself

More and more .... that's just a hint at my experience with my anger

Pep

<<<What benifit do you get out of your anger?>>>

My anger kept me strong enough to fight for my family for a *very* long time while trying to get several extremely intrusive, leech-like OP out of my marriage. And I wasn't just battling my husband's attitudes and a bunch of women who thought they had a right to him -- I was also battling a whole corporate culture that condoned and encouraged their actions.

Say what you want about anger -- it *will* give you strength when you can get it nowhere else.

You bet I was angry and you bet I was scared (anger + fear = rage,) because I did not want to lose my marriage and I sure didn't want to be forced to share my husband with other women on *any* level.

But you are right -- there is no benefit to it anymore, because I have lost the fight. If I stay married, these OP are going to be stinking up my marriage one way or another from now until the end of time.

Why? Because he wants them there. And there is NOTHING I can do about that.

What you are reading is not so much anger anymore as it is raw, deep, unrelenting pain. It's as though he stuck a butcher knife through my heart and is *sure* that if he can hold it in there long enough, I will get used to it and will just accept it. Like all I need is time.

Do you think your H intends to hurt you by his behavior? Is this his intent or not?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But Star*fish, you are wrong to say that I would not have forgiven him and worked with him if he had apologized to me for his actions and stopped protecting the OP. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then I am so sorry for saying it. Please forgive me. I hear the kind of apology that you feel in your heart would help.....and so wish he would give it to you. Why do YOU think he won't? Has this become a war of principles perhaps, where both of you feel your self is on the line?

What if you knew, that by giving him what he needs (confidence in him, admiration), you could get you what you need? Would you give it to him? I ask this because I think this office situation is eating up your happiness....and you need relief from it....really soon. If you let go of your resentment....just gave it up.....decided, "ya know what! If he's the kind of man who cheats....he's going to do it whether I'm miserable everyday or not. So today.....I'm not going to be miserable." Several things might happen to you if you did that:

You would probably be happier.

Your husband would probably be able to stop holding onto this so tightly and might give in too.

If it doesn't change anything, you may just be ready to say....HEY! Let 'em have him!!!!

It'll stop a major leak in the Love Bank and intimacy may rise.

It will give you a vacation from this pain.

It will confuse your husband. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You've heard the quote before about the definition of insanity is "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." So try something different chere.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What you are reading is not so much anger anymore as it is raw, deep, unrelenting pain. It's as though he stuck a butcher knife through my heart and is *sure* that if he can hold it in there long enough, I will get used to it and will just accept it. Like all I need is time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This breaks my heart <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> Let me ask you something.....if someone you cared about called you and say "OMG I have a butcher knife stuck in my chest!" Wouldn't you tell them to get that sucker OUT??? He stuck in.....don't leave it there! It's starting to fester. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<<<Do you think your H intends to hurt you by his behavior? Is this his intent or not?>>>

No, I don't. He insists it is not and I believe him.

In my opinion, he simply learned a long time ago that he could be single at work and married at home (not to mention helping himself to strippers and porn on the road,) and absolutely LOVED this arrangement. Since his company and his co-workers have not only never said a word against this, but have actively encouraged and rewarded it, there is nothing and nobody that is going to tell him he did anything wrong.

I pointed out that I did not and never would have done this to him under *any* circumstances, whether my job said it was okay or not. I never did this because it would have hurt me to be without him. I married him because I wanted to be with him, not dump him and take off with some other man whenever I thought my job would let me get away with it. And I thought he felt the same about wanting to be with me.

He says, "Well, I didn't mean to hurt you."

And I say, "The question is, why didn't it hurt YOU? Why didn't it hurt YOU to take off with somebody else instead of spending your time with me?"

No answer.

p_b ....

I feel I am getting a little closer to the real you.

Can we keep going? It it too exhausting to answer my questions?

Pep

***What if you knew, that by giving him what he needs (confidence in him, admiration), you could get you what you need? Would you give it to him?***

1) Back when we worked together, I did everything I could to show him I loved him and wanted to be with him. He insisted I stay away from him at work because "it's policy that married couples are not supposed to spend time together at work and you could hurt my career." With incredible stupidity, I went along with this. Looking back on it, I think anyone this stupid actually does deserve all the pain I have now.

2) He would love it if I'd start fawning all over him again and trying to give him what he needs. And I am 100% positive it would not change a thing.

This is exactly what he wants -- a loving wife at home while STILL being able to tell himself he did absolutely nothing wrong with these women at work, and STILL keeping and enjoying all the great memories of the fun and success they had together (and will no doubt still manage to have in the future. Gosh, it's Work, you know. Some things you just can't get out of. Like having the last one still working ten feet away from him all day long.)

***I ask this because I think this office situation is eating up your happiness....and you need relief from it....really soon.***

There isn't any relief from this, unless I move out. He insists there is nothing he can do about her being there.

***If you let go of your resentment....just gave it up.....decided, "ya know what! If he's the kind of man who cheats....he's going to do it whether I'm miserable everyday or not. So today.....I'm not going to be miserable." Several things might happen to you if you did that:
You would probably be happier.***

This would send him the clear message that I am okay with what he did and have just accepted it now. *He* would be happier. I would be in the psych ward.

***Your husband would probably be able to stop holding onto this so tightly and might give in too.***

That will never, ever happen. Ever. He has beaten me to death over this for three solid years. For him to admit he was wrong to do what he did with these women would for him to admit that his company policy is wrong and his management style is wrong. He is a Star Player at this place, the Big Shot, the Favorite Son, the Golden Boy, the Swingin' D*ck (his term.) This will Never, Ever happen.

***If it doesn't change anything, you may just be ready to say....HEY! Let 'em have him!!!!***

He's already got them, and is determined to keep them one way or the other. And they've got him, too. They'll always have each other, because nobody is one bit sorry for what they did.

***It'll stop a major leak in the Love Bank and intimacy may rise.
It will give you a vacation from this pain.
It will confuse your husband.***

Yes, I know. I'm supposed to make myself not care. I really have tried to do that, but have not been able to do it yet. I am going to keep trying, though, because you're right, I'll never have any peace any other way. I will be tormented with images of them together, and know that he was happy to do it then and is still happy about it now, until doomsday.

It's like they're all laughing at me. Just laughing and laughing and laughing. Him and every one of those girls, all driving off in a car together and laughing at me while I stand there and watch them go and can do nothing to stop it.

He asks me why this "bothers" me so much. Well --what can I say? It was *only* my marriage, it was *only* my life. Why should something that threatens those things "bother" me?

***You've heard the quote before about the definition of insanity is "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." So try something different chere.***

Yes, I know. That's why I will try to detach as much as I can, just to get away from the pain. He won, so that means he will never have to apologize for his actions or say anything bad about these wonderful women; but I sure hope he doesn't expect me to be happy and enthusiastic about that. He should just be happy that he won and that his wife will never again expect him to apologize for all the fun he had with other women while she sat home and waited for him.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What you are reading is not so much anger anymore as it is raw, deep, unrelenting pain. It's as though he stuck a butcher knife through my heart and is *sure* that if he can hold it in there long enough, I will get used to it and will just accept it. Like all I need is time.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

***This breaks my heart Let me ask you something.....if someone you cared about called you and say "OMG I have a butcher knife stuck in my chest!" Wouldn't you tell them to get that sucker OUT??? He stuck in.....don't leave it there! It's starting to fester.***

Yeah, I don't know which is worse -- leave it in and die from the pain, or pull it out and bleed to death.

Gosh, a little time spent alone with a cute fawning flirty girl from work really is just harmless fun, isn't it? What could it possibly hurt?

<<<Can we keep going? It it too exhausting to answer my questions?>>>

Please do, though I may be out for a while tonight. It's not exhausting at all. Keeps me from beating up some poor innocent furniture.

If you want to see "the real me," go here:
http://www.okerry.net

Well HOT DAMN..... you are a gen_u_ine big deal author!

Pleeeezed to meet ya!

Pep

I understand your need. There's a big hole in your heart where there used to be trust and ownership. You had your identity ripped apart and you want it put back together. He was YOUR man and even on a bad day when you had suspicions, you never believed he would hold another woman as intimately as he held you. It rips into your very center.

The bad news is... it will never be the same. Your innocence in the matter is gone. You now know that he didn't hold your relationship sacred as you did and it hurts like crazy.

The good news it... it will fade. You need to pay more attention to making yourself happy and depend less on him. He's probably incapable of what you need right now, as much as you'd like to rip his head off for it, it won't do any good.

I agree that your best course is to dredge up as many good feelings as you can about his apology. If he is not continueing an affair, then give him the benefit of the doubt and respect him for voicing that he's sorry for hurting you and let him know how important that is and that you appreciate it.

By making him feel good about himself again, and for how he handled this situation, he may one day realize that what he has with you is way beyond what he was trying to create with ow... and he may come to realize that he really is sorry he did it at all. In fact, if you can appreciate him right where he is, let go of some of the pain, and show him that you still care, he may one day say those words that you long to hear, and mean them. I for one don't want to be married to a miserable whipped puppy. I want a happy husband who enjoys coming home to me.

I'm working on the same issues and with every step forward and two steps back, it's getting better. Hang in there. I know your pain.

p_b,

I know you've tried alot of things to get your marriage on track. I'd like to suggest somethings to help YOU back on track, so that when you feel a little stronger and less stressed, and resume your efforts you will be in the right frame of mind. There are a million ways to focus energy on yourself, but choose some that also bring some peace of mind and a well being. Yoga is excellent, so is meditation. Excersize is pretty essential in some form, and a good diet that is nourishing. If you are religious, a spirtual retreat. I think your spirit could use some lifting and feeding. This isn't going to make your situation go away, but may renew your energy for next phase.

I honestly think that you may need to seriously consider a Plan B for your husband to realize that no compromise on this issue is never going to be acceptable to you. He needs to understand that given the choice between living without him or living with this passive aggressive form of abuse......that YOU will choose living without him. Right now, when you tell him that it's hurting you.....essentially he is saying "sorry it hurts, but I'm not going to do anything about it." If that is truly his message, then he needs to understand that you are willing to do something about it....for yourself. You would prefer if he would help you and support you, but that if that isn't his choice then it's up to you to protect yourself and your feelings for him. If that doesn't make him reconsider his actions, it's really no different from what you have now. Just some food for thought.

<small>[ July 24, 2003, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

I think right now, you would benifit greatly from loving yourself while you plan A your spouse (holding no expectations he will return the favor) and then when you feel more or less ready .... plan B.

To plan B now (before plan A) will only leave the impression you actually might be a "p_b" in your H's mind. If you plan A for 3 months, make your requests of marital therapy to negotiate changes .... if he refuses, plan B..... and your H will be left wondering why this marvelous, serene and happy woman chose to leave him.....

Remember, he's got to miss you in Plan B.

Love,

Pepper

pep, p_b,

A good Plan A for a little while would be great. I'm only worried that if p_b is too angry or can't control LBs that attempting Plan A before giving herself a bit of boost is going to be really hard. She believes that if she does one, she's somehow sanctioning his actions...and I think that's what's undermining her efforts to be successful.

While you're giving yourself some TLC... would be a good time to discuss how you can feed your marriage (not your husband) with a good Plan A without feeling as though you've compromised and simply given him what he wants. Sure he benefits....but the ultimate goal is that you benefit as well....a small sacrifice for a happy marriage. Look at the BIG picture....not the short term unfairness of it (the old forest and the tree thing....cutting of your nose to spite your face) I think what's important to keep in mind....is that Plan A isn't the solution....it's the prelude to the solution. It's a short term plan in this case to increase intimacy and make being with you a better alternative than having his needs met elsewhere, and subsequently get into a better negotiating position. If you can't do a Plan A. Then you may need to consider the alternative.

p_b,

I checked out your site....it's way cool <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Just checking in on you, how are you doing?

Very bad day today. I can ask for what I need, and I may even get it, but not until I have been through WWIII and then some. After a two-hour fight, I *may* get what I asked for, but he will still be angry and frustrated that I cannot be all happy and loving about that since "he gave me what I asked for, didn't he?"

I can explain to him how his and these women's actions made me feel, but there will be no validation of my feelings whatsoever -- just a furious insistence that "YOU SHOULDN'T FEEL THAT WAY!!!"

Of course it bothers me that his last close female friend still sits outside his office door. I'm sure everyone here can understand that but he absolutely does not. I wish I could go to him for reassurance and empathy on the subject, but I don't dare. He will ANGRILY INSIST that "YOU SHOULDN'T FEEL THAT WAY!!!" (and yes, those are his words.)

How on earth does anybody get through to someone with a mindset like this?

Shoot honey, I don't know. But now that you've figured out what DOESN't work, how about considering something else? What did you think about what pep and I said earlier about feeding your own spirit, maybe a short Plan A....and then seriously considering B (with coaching of course). And how about calling the Harley's for counseling?

Hello, p-b!

Reading your thread has prompted me to offer these thoughts and observations....

Also. let me preface these by saying...my H does (and says) much the same things...I can REALLY relate to dealing with a WS's angry, stubborn, "I'm not gonna change" mentality....

First....I don't see much difference in you saying, "This behavior of yours should bother you..." and him saying, "This behavior of mine shouldn't bother you." Check, mate and game....he wins....after all, isn't he just dishing back what you are giving him? What gives any person the right to tell their partner how they should or should not feel? Feelings are not right or wrong, they simply ARE.

Now...looking at him saying, "I'm sorry this behavior hurts you." I see this....at least it's an admission that he sees that your feelings on the matter are not the same as his....progress, not perfection....

My H as a general principle, thinks everyones sees the world the same way that he does, and truly thinks that if they don't....well, they should...definitely a narcissistic bent. The trick is getting them to look outside of that mind-set long enough to come to an agreement on possible solutions...

Now...a new idea I wonder if you have considered...general corporate culture being as competetive as it is....can you consider that his need to be "THE Swingin' D*ck" as an identity-defining thing for him...basically a "guy-thing"...created by him simply to compete with your "celebrity" and to compensate for a basic fear of never being seen as more than "That famous author's hubby..." and that for him to give that up would tantamount to giving up his own identity...to cease to exist, so to speak...I read somewhere about a lot of guys having a fear of intimacy, which to them threatens engulfment and loss of identity...how's that for a run-on sentence....LOL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Now in no way am I saying that this is correct or even acceptable...but MAY help explain his entrenched stance....nothing else....

I need a cuppa joe...I'll post again shortly, even my brain needs a break after that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<small>[ July 25, 2003, 12:06 AM: Message edited by: HelenWheels ]</small>