Hi All-

Life's been pretty good to me these days. I've been spending a lot of time with my DS's and erally appreciating life as much as I can each and every day.

I haven't been in touch with X much. My desires were to let go and start moving forward with me. It works wonderfully as long as there's no contact. The minute there is contact though, I feel a small sense of sadness for a while and then it passes.

I'm starting to feel like my life with him was a dream and that I'm waking up and only have tentative memories. That is, unless I have contact and then it pulls a little more, but only for a short time.

Well - saturday was the first time in almost a month where we actually spent time in a conversation. I was doing my own thing and he approached my car and asked me if I wanted a tea. I went with him, more out of politeness than anything else, and found myself sitting across from him at a donut shop near my son's karate studio.

After a time we began to chat about my family. I filled him in on the details of the last two years and it occurred to me that he missed quite a bit. We laughed about some things and then talked about my future.

I asked him for his opinion about the opportunitites that I am exploring. I told him that he is the person that knows me best so I wanted an honest view of things. He was pretty honest and tried to be helpful with things to consider. I was grateful for his input and told him so. He did have some interesting points and I will follow up with some of it.

Then the discussion turned towards him. He talked about work and how miserable he was traveling. He wants to quit really bad, but to do so would be committin financial suicide. I asked him if I could offer an opinion and he agreed. I told him my view on what he should do and we vaguely talked about what he would have to do to get to that goal. He also expressed that he was in conflict with the people that he worked with and openly tells them to their face that he doesn't like them.

I of course grew a little concerned because I see this as a red flag.

Then we started discussing his sick parents. He started talking about how frustrated he is because their care is on his shoulders. No one else in his family shares the burden so this adds to his stress. I commented on how angry he must be at times towards his parents for the dependancy, and towards his siblings for their lack of support. He agreed and then confessed that sometimes it gets so bad for him that he doesn't want to go home. Another red flag went up.

We then started chatting about DS. He had been emotional to the point of withdrawal the evening prior and X asked me what I thought caused it. I told him "Everything" and he nodded in understanding. The chatting continued and went on to some strange coments from X. We were talking about my life and something along the lines of doing anything to have your children in your life came up. X looked at me and said something close to "Well then we feel the same way where we would do anything to have our kids in our life".

To me the commentary was a bit strange and leading. I wasn't sure what he was after or trying to get to. My comment then was "O could challenge you on that statement, but I'm choosing not to" and the silence was deafening.

My thoughts at that moment went back to a conversation we shared on the phone about two months ago. During that conversation I told him that I wanted DS 100% of teh time not 6 1/2 years. X asked if I meant that I was trying to take him and I said no, that I wanted that time with his Dad. I wanted all or nothing.

I'm curious to know if that's where he was going with it.

It felt very strange to be conversing about such intimate details of our lives when we are really strangers to each other now.

I do know that there is a court hearing for custody on Thursday. Perhaps this was his way of apologizing in advance for the stuff that's about to happen in court...

Strange days...

<small>[ July 23, 2003, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: kily ]</small>

I must say I sympathize, Kily. It seems that things get better and better for me in my life the longer I stay away from XW, and then when we get together, so much "stuff" comes back: feelings, doubts, questions, what-ifs...thoughts of how to re-build...and I spend a few anxious days with that.

I guess that's about normal, perhaps some with longer DVs under their belts can chime in...

But it is clear that the DV has an effect on both partners, and in many cases it might be for the good. Slowly I've begun to feel that there are things we can now start talking about that were very difficult before, and things like that.

My vote is with making the best of it, learning, and creating the best possible relationship we can; after all, with the children in common, we'll be forever tied to each other and the easier and less contentious that is, the better.

I know that in my case as time has passed, I understand her more, and I'm more forgiving and compassionate. I suspect you feel much the same way.

Spacecase-

Glad to see you in a better place...

Have you watched the sunset daily?

You and I ARE in the same place. It's such a screwy thing.

Most times I'm fine. Then I hit a bump and I'm back to square one again. I think the hardest thing to accept is that now that there is no formal "r" attachment, we are able to talk about things so much easier. It hurts because deep in that place where we've locked that love and vulnerability away, we know that if they just gave an inch...well, I'm not finishing that thought.

I just can't help but wonder if he's noticing my changes and regretting things the way that I am.

I wonder now if I should ask him just what he WOULD do to keep his son with him. Would he give up his newe life and committ to trying to work things out with me? I know that I will not open that door but it's nice to dream sometimes...

I can't believe that I'm feeling this today when I've been so good for the last few weeks.

Anyway, keep your head held high, and remember our walk together. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Kily,
I don't know what advice to give you here because I know part of you still has feelings and hopes and dreams and part of you wants to let go. So I will just pray that you will come to a peaceful place no matter what decisions are made. I hope court goes ok on Thursday. Take care!!
Hugs !!

I wonder now if I should ask him just what he WOULD do to keep his son with him. Would he give up his new life and committ to trying to work things out with me? I know that I will not open that door but it's nice to dream sometimes

It is rude to open doors without knocking. What would it look like to knock politely ?
You have done all this work to get to where you are now, don't be afraid to do a little exploring.

When you don't know the future, but when what happens is important to you, don't trust fate.
Do all that YOU can do.

SS

SS-

You're right. I have done so much work and it is such a scary place where I'm at. I feel like I've been banging my head on the door and then when I finally stop, and things get quiet, he peeks out to see why I'm not banging on the door! It's so confusing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What would it look like to knock politely ?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps I can approach him at some time in the future (after the court hearing) and tell him that his words have struck a nerve with me. I can let him know that I'm interested in what he was thinking then, if he cares to share the details with me.

He already knows my feelings on the subject. Telling him again will only get his guard up and force him behind his wall again. Also, I'm tired of fighting for a pipe dream. He needs to be able to come out on his own.

Additionally - I was reading a post in EN's about rushing to marriage and I have to say that this post is really triggering me. I talked a bit about it with ALS and it seems that this topic was putting a voice to all of the fear and insecurity that I have about X's new relationship.

I thought that I was moving away very nicely. Apparently this upcomng M is affecting more than I am admitting to myself.

Kily,
Sounds like your in a bit of a slump again. I'll relate some things and then let you figure them out as I hesitate to interject either way because you are so torn.

My wife and I also were able to talk very openly and honestly while we were going through our time. More honestly than ever before I think. Maybe it was the freedom on her part and the WANTING on my part.

Maybe he was appologizing in advance for what he knows will happen at the custody hearing. Maybe he was cracking the door for you to take a peek. Maybe there really is life in outer space. Maybe we don't know the answer to questions, that's why they are questions, for us to ask someone who does know the answers.

SS may have hit on the head. How do you knock politely? How do you decide what is right for Kily and her family? IMHO your trying to balance on a fence post because your not sure which side has the greener grass. Not entirely your fault, but as long as your balancing you will never find out; you will starve.

Good Luck and God Bless

Hi Kily,
I can see that your crystal ball doesn't work any better than mine does.
BTW, cerri had a call to you on JFO asking if you still had questions, ( probably on page two by now) I don't know if you saw it.

You're right. I have done so much work and it is such a scary place where I'm at. I feel like I've been banging my head on the door and then when I finally stop, and things get quiet, he peeks out to see why I'm not banging on the door! It's so confusing.

Sometimes God sends and angel and they sit down with us and tell us word for word what will happen, and what to say. Usually, it makes us grow more if he gives us hints and we figure it out for ourselves. I know you would really like a better blueprint, but I think you will do all right with what you have . If you do all you can, and you need more help, you will get it.

Perhaps I can approach him at some time in the future (after the court hearing) and tell him that his words have struck a nerve with me. I can let him know that I'm interested in what he was thinking then, if he cares to share the details with me.

I think that would be a very good way to proceed. More below.

He already knows my feelings on the subject. Telling him again will only get his guard up and force him behind his wall again. Also, I'm tired of fighting for a pipe dream. He needs to be able to come out on his own.

He may not know your feelings. You have explained them, more than once, but he may not understand. My W and I have the same goals, and we are in love, but sometimes she recalls a conversation and what she remembers can be so different from what I remember that I wonder if we are talking about the same event. I find myself recapping the main points of conversations now to make sure we are thinking along the same lines, but even then we sometimes don't understand each other. Would it put his guard up? Probably, because I suspect you know him well by now. Is there some way you can gently remind him of your feelings?
Think on that one for a day or two.

Additionally - I was reading a post in EN's about rushing to marriage and I have to say that this post is really triggering me. I talked a bit about it with ALS and it seems that this topic was putting a voice to all of the fear and insecurity that I have about X's new relationship.

I fear for both of them. I wonder if it will have to happen for him that way like it happened to you. Will he wake up in "Vegas" and realize he is in the wrong place? Where will Kily be then?
No, we don't know the future, but I put a lot of credence in your - what? - dreams? visions?
Is it wishful thinking transformed into an experience? I just don't think so.
Do you pray?
Do you know someone is there?
Are you living as well as you know how to live? Doing what you know you ought to do from day to day?
If yes, then you can get more help to know your direction. Tell him what you tell us, then put out what you believe is the best solution. You will feel positive and at peace if it is right, full of doubt if not. Ideas will come to you as you continue to think about it. I don't think you would get all the help you relate to us just to hit a dead end. I don't think you believe that either, but it's hard when you don't understand it all. Remember that faith is not knowing everything, but it is believing anyway because of the little you do know.

I thought that I was moving away very nicely. Apparently this upcoming M is affecting more than I am admitting to myself.

I am glad love has that kind of power, and I bet some day you will be glad too.

Can I kind of recap?

1. So we don't know everything? - that's the way life is.
2. Don't be afraid to try things. Look at all the worlds great discoveries, inventions etc. Go out on a limb if you have to .
3. Don't think he understands you. Repeat things to make sure. Ask flat out if you have to.
4. Have faith in God, try to find out what he wants.
5. Smile, you have lots of friends that care about you.

SS

<small>[ July 22, 2003, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Hi All-

Just returned from court.

When I arrived, X sat with me and we started to talk about how much we hate being there. We both agreed at how stupid this is. Unfortunately, what can we do?

His layer is trying to get him to settle. She feels that he will not win and will be wasting his money. We sat aroubnd a conference table rtying to negotiate after that but it turned into an emotionalsparring match.

X's position - I ran around on him, broke up the family, hurt my son by doing this. He wants to maintain stability.

My position-
Yes, I did those things. Then I did the work that I needed to do - ALONE- to make myself the best mom and partner that I could be. I tried to get my family back, did everything I knew how to do, but he chose his GF. I've gone well above and beyond - even to this day - in supporting X with his needs. He hasn't acknowledge any of that and only sees the bad. I want stability for my son in an environment where he doesn't have to be carted for an hour to get to school. I deserve him just as much as X.

Then I went further. My offer still stands to fix what we broke. I told him that being a family was a choice. His choice was to walk away. I reminded him that I chose to try. I hope that it sticks with him and he thinks about this long and hard.

The lawyers bith commented on how suprised they were at the level of support that we do give to each other. They commented that most custody cases have them constantly on the telephone trying to solve disoutes. In their minds, they say that our case stood out because it has worked so successfully.

That made me feel really great, and really sad because I know how much sacrificing I have to do to have this type of situation for my son. I feel sad because we can mange this between us, but not problems and issues that lead here....

Anyway- SS beautiful stuff. I will respond later. I need to get to work.

What did he say to your offer?

NW-

Nothing. He didn't say a damn thing.

He's going on a business trip for three days starting this afternoon. I figured that it was the perfect opportunity to stick my neck out and take a chance to plant some seeds.

I'm praying that God helps nurture them. See like SS said, it felt like the right thing to do. I wasn't demanding or angry. I was matter of factly stating that the outcome was a choice and both of us could committ to repair, or both of us can lose 1/2 of the time with DS permanently.

I'm not backing down when it comes to my son.

Kily,
Sounds like you stuck your neck out at the right time. This will give him something to think about over the next few days. I always prayed for my wife's heart to be softened, her mind to be cleared, and for God to touch her heart and lead her in the direction that He wanted her to go.

Good Luck and God Bless

Kily,

I agree that the timing was good. I wish you all the luck I have to give. I replied to you on my thread.
Take Care,
now what

Wow, what a PERFECT time to have said that. I wish I would have thought to suggest it. I think you chose the absolute ideal location to let him know that you were still opening the recovery door. That you were still willing and able to recover and provide a stable family unit for your son.

This was fantastic because you expressed yourself exactly as you feel, you were honest and open, and not ashamed of it, and not only did X get to hear this, but so did the counsel.

GREAT for you no matter what, but even better in that he was in a situation where he really wasn't able to immediately come back at you with any sort of rash decisions, or hurtful response, but rather, now has time to actually reflect on what you've said so openly.

I congratulate you and think everything went wonderfully by how you described. I am sorry that he seems to be dragging his feet a bit, but from all I have seen here, it seems you certainly have the upper hand in all regards.

Keep us posted!

ALS

Kily,
Sounds like you handled things well for such a hard day. Let's hope he spends 3 days really thinking about what you said, and that the best thing will happen for all of you- DS especially. Just know that you are doing all you can and you have come a long way, which is ALWAYS something to be proud of, even when others don't "get it."
Hugs.

Hi Guys-

Thanks for your thoughts.

Yes, I guess I realized that it was now, or never.

He was busy pointing fingers and playing the blame game - still. For once though, I decided that I would simply point out that we all had choices and we had to accept the consequences of those choices.

Sure it's easy for me to blame myself for all that happened. Not once did I try to say that I was innocent. I wasn't saying that his choices were wrong. All I tried to do was to convey that we have the power to change the outcome.

Like everything else, it comes down to responsibility, accountability, wants, trade offs and sacrafices. He is starting to feel deep pain again. This time over the loss of what is today. I think in the end, his choices will be based on the topic of Saturday's discussion.

Will he do ANYTHING to be with his son?

I even told him in the conference room that I cared about him. As I left, I wished him a safe trip.

I can walk away from all of this knowing in my heart that I really did all that I could do.

One other point that the lawyers made was that they realized that neither of us wanted to push this issue. Gee, I wonder why...

Anyway, I feel very positive with today's meeting. Personally, I don't believe for a minute that X will turn his head my way and reconsider what he sees. Maybe SS is correct though, he may need to get to Las Vegas - in this case "Louisvilee" in order to realize that he's not where he belongs...

Maybe I'm finally at the place where I belong.

After sleeping on it, I have more thoughts dancing around in my head. Just wanted to share them so I can process it and move on-

During the conference between the lawuers, X came and sat next to me in the courtroom. We started talking about DS and X was commenting on DS;s behavior. Ds seems to be withdrawing while at Dad's. He wants to sit in his room and watch TV or play video games and do nothing else. I found it interesting because whne he's with me, he helps cook, clean, we play games together, go for walks, grocery shop, play sports (baseball), talk, hug, play..etc.

I found it strange that X was sharing this with me. I told him that DS is in withdrawal and that the way to break this cycle is to take his TV and video game out of his bedroom. I suggested that this might force him to come out and be a part of things.

Then he shared with me things that He and GF did with DS. Yuck! Like I WANT to KNOW....I listened, smiled, but inside was feeling ill. I felt like he wants us all to be this giant happy family.

Am I wrong to not want to be a part of that?

I just find it confusing that he talks to me about such serious stuff.

Last week, Ds told me that his father told him that he missed me. Adds further to the confusion because I don't know if DS is trying to make me happy with a lie, or is tellng me a truth. I don't want to pry and make a big deal out of it either.

Hopefully I'll have more to say on Monday...after the weekend passes.

My thoughts are with you.

NW-

Thanks. II'm just so close to giving it up and when I get to that point, he always does something to give me just a little hope.

I know it's time to forget about it. If I didn't have Ds to worry about, I would have given up. SS is right though, I really do love him. I never realized how much until I had to learn to let go.

What is up in your end of the world? Have you any plans yet on what you're going to do in regards to wife? I'd love to hear what's going on in that head of your.

I'm still debating what to do. I took our kids on a mini vacation for a couple of days Mon & Tues an she called 5 times betwen Mon morning and Tues night when we returned. I only answered one call and she left messages the rest of the time. Wanted to check on the kids, was "worried" about them. The call I took was on Monday morning and I have not spoken to her since then. She called last night (she had the kids) I did not answer and she did not leave a message. Her friend told me that W commented that I was "being a [censored]" lask week when I wasn't speaking to her, returning her calls. My plan B letter was very loving, very compassionate however it did state that as long as she had a relationship with OM there would not be one with me.
Several weeks ago when we started spending some time together and I avoided R talk and my feelings, she began to tell her friend how she was thinking more about me and coming back. I started pushing her, crying and begging again when nothing happened quick enough and it ended those thoughts. I'm just thinking that if I can maybe do that again for a little longer, I can turn the tide. Show her how it can be and stael her back from him so to speak? I'm just so afraid that letting him be the only one there for her will make their R stronger and make me look less appealing.