Enough of telling me enough .....

If you don't wish to answer, ignore me. I am asking questions that may or may not help you, but I never ask questions with intent to piss you off.

So, enough of your enough.

Thanks.

Well well well… I've been randomly browsing these threads... it appears that I’m something of an enigma here on MB. Must be why Trying24give was riding me so hard telling me I don’t belong. He suggested I see MB as the enemy… the reality appears to be that I, the dark and evil WS, am the foe. The language and tactics demonstrated in so many of these threads is… well… reverse psychology. Only it employs a vindictive twist. Wait till you read some of ORCHID’s suggestions RF. Yeah… ORCHID is a dangerous one. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Whew! I’m a bit relieved to have not felt that sting of that particular lash.

Here’s my predicament in a nutshell. (WARNING: The word, or variations on the word, PROMISE appears 10 times in this post. You are not stuttering. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

· I have always thought of myself as upstanding and true; a man of character.
· I have broken a promise I never dreamed I could break.
· I struggle with rebuilding of my integrity. Primarily on the issue of promises.
· I compounded the complexity of the rebuilding by making new promises.
· I told the OW I would never turn her away.
· I told the OW I would wait… as long as it takes… whatever it takes…
· I had no right to make those promises. But I did.
· The promises may be considered to be irrational.
· I won’t argue that necessarily… however, promises are promises.
· These particular promises are still close to my heart.
· I struggle with knowing my W deserves first chance at my full attention to Mbuilding.
· I struggle because 13 years of experience tell me she wont budge. (SSDD)
· Notwithstanding that… letting go of OW, as required by my W, means I’ve broken more promises.
· I can’t break promises anymore. I won’t. There is no way around that.
· I AM willing to try again with my W. But her first rule, and admittedly valid rule, is one I can’t meet.
· I won’t play the games that have been enumerated by ARK in this thread and outlined by ORCHID in other threads. There is a pervasive assumption on MB that a WS is somehow mind numbingly stupid and easily duped by psychological charades or the clever but intellectually insulting turn of a phrase. That stuff throws alarms left and right for me. I would walk in a flash.
· So this WS has the audacity to have parameters that must be met to throttle the process away from SSDD. And my W has set parameters that I cannot meet. This, to my thinking, is a stalemate.

RF? This may or may not be helpful to you, it may be... in some ways be where YOUR H is now... It’s where I am though… in a nutshell -- and I am a bit nutty right now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-TMD

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>Enough of telling me enough .....

If you don't wish to answer, ignore me. I am asking questions that may or may not help you, but I never ask questions with intent to piss you off.

So, enough of your enough.

Thanks.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fair enough. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

If I say "I love my dog", but I neglect to walk him, groom him, stroke his belly .... how does my dog experience my love for him?

I also love another man's dog, and I think I'd rather spend time with that othe man's dog the rest of my life.

Deal with it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I struggle because 13 years of experience tell me she wont budge. (SSDD) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you told her this? Is this the real reason you are sabotaging any chances for recovery?

For the record, I did not find Pep's questions obtuse. It seems a logical one given your position and her position.

So.. to hell with your promises... your integrity is shot to hell already... what's a few more scars in the grand scheme? Tell the OW to piss off and do the right thing man!

EH?

-TMD

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by johnh39:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I struggle because 13 years of experience tell me she wont budge. (SSDD) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you told her this? Is this the real reason you are sabotaging any chances for recovery?

</strong> I have. Sabotage.. I love that word. Yes. I've not been hiding that fact. (see "Hopeless - with no intention of letting go") <strong>

For the record, I did not find Pep's questions obtuse. It seems a logical one given your position and her position.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pep knows... may have forgotten with all the threads she follows... that I have a long history of genuine effort and that I finally gave up trying after years of no positive results.

So yes... Obtuse in that the question was asked from the objective of a single phrase to the exclusion of the relevant context. Mundane in that I'm tired of repeating myself.

I'm am sorry Pep... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I was short with you and it was not fair of me to be so. I apologize for my outburst.

Sincerely - TMD

TMD you are never wrong to be "short" with me if that's your true response.

I am never offended when you are being your true self.

I'd rather we be real with each other than "polite" and dance around the truth.

Pep

I guess my situation is more hopeless than yours TMD. My H claims he does not love me, does not feel anything, also does not want to continue this marriage. Me, similar to your wife, refuse to live under the shadow of his lover. I can't, physicly cannot. So in my position, you think maybe I should just move on and give up on this marriage?

My husband is a good man. I always knew because he inspired me to be a better person. I'm alarmed because he longer does that, and now I notice I'm more cynical, more jealous, more vindicative and manipulative. Definitely not a better person. What should I do? He makes most of the arguments you do, except for the lack of affection, he started rejecting me first. If you were my husband, what would you like me to say to you at this point?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>TMD you are never wrong to be "short" with me if that's your true response.

I am never offended when you are being your true self.

I'd rather we be real with each other than "polite" and dance around the truth.

Pep</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pep

Ahhh... good. J. OK... I'm just not mean spirited at heart. So my apology stands. No hard feelings I hope. I am being as true as I can be here. I hope that is noticeable.. If not, then I'm unconsciously closed to something and need to have that pointed out or I'm unconvinced of points already attempted.

Does everyone here believe that all of this is really as simple and straightforward as my short soliloquy? Just curious.

-TMD

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by rushed fool:
<strong>I guess my situation is more hopeless than yours TMD. My H claims he does not love me, does not feel anything, also does not want to continue this marriage. Me, similar to your wife, refuse to live under the shadow of his lover. I can't, physicly cannot. So in my position, you think maybe I should just move on and give up on this marriage?

My husband is a good man. I always knew because he inspired me to be a better person. I'm alarmed because he longer does that, and now I notice I'm more cynical, more jealous, more vindicative and manipulative. Definitely not a better person. What should I do? He makes most of the arguments you do, except for the lack of affection, he started rejecting me first. If you were my husband, what would you like me to say to you at this point?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow RF... OK... I'm actually kind of shocked you would want the opinion of a WS on this specific question.. here goes. And NOTE: This is a solicited opinion of a WH regarding another WH and how the W should handle her situation. This statement in no way reflects the beliefs or practices of the MB discussion forums or MB inc.

Again... I believe that if he ever loved you... he still does... It's in there.

If I were your husband? I'm not RF. I have no inkling what he wants from you. If he stopped showing affection first... I'd have to ask why? Then go from there.

For MY part. If, tomorrow, my wife started acting like she loved me -- started doing all the things I've missed over the years -- It would make it much harder for me to justify ending our marriage without more of an effort. As unfair as that is, considering my recent wayward behavior, that would make a difference. Why? Because I would see something that I've not ever seen. Effort.

I'm not suggesting you do that. I don't know his situation with the OW. Is your H's OW married? If not, that's exceedingly more difficult for him to resist. From his perspective... it's a sure thing.

I know that MY OW would cry knowing we'll never see each other again... as would I... but she would be genuinely happy for me if I was happy in the end -- As will I be for her... should she work it out with her H.

Has your H actually told you that he doesn't love you? If so... I would respond to that with... "That's a lie. And you know it." I’d say it as a simple point of fact and with no emotion whatsoever. If he comes back with it again, ask him, with genuine concern, if he is certain and whether he’s prepared for the repercussions of that statement. Don’t let him say… “I have to think about that….” (Bull pucky as ARK would say.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) If he has to think about it… It means he still loves you but is just willing to let the OW quell his guilt. …let him chew on what I believe, based on my own heart right now, is the truth of his emotions regarding you.

If he's truly gone to the OW, there's nothing you can do about it except move on as quickly and in as focused a manner as you can muster toward your new life. (It’s what my wife is doing… I’m actually proud of her for it.) Leave your H to discover, on his own, whether his actions were founded. It will become profound as he watches you rapidly fade into his past.
-TMD

P.S. Did you read 'the necklass' posting? It's really good RF. I could approach it from another perspective for you though. It's possible that God is waiting for you to let your (dimestore) H go so He may then give you the priceless life and love you deserve.

<small>[ July 25, 2003, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: TrulyMadlyDeeply ]</small>

<small>[ July 25, 2003, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

When someone evokes an emotional response (like anger) from me when they have corrected/criticized my behavior ... it usually means there is some truth about the correction .... and that truth provokes a hurt.

My job is to find the truth that caused the hurt, and to look at it and make a decision about changing anything about myself that may need changing.

If someone says this to me, "You have no integrity Pep." I am not inclined to respond on an emotional level, because there is no hurt for me within that statement. It doesn't make me angry or hurt .... because I know it is not true.

If someone says to me, "You are so controlling and nagging Pep. You think you know everything." I feel a tinge of hurt .... because there is truth within that remark. I have to own that.

TMD, if you feel attacked/angered/irritated by my probing questions (or anyone elses), better you look at yourself, examine why you felt provoked.

Almost all our lessons about ourselves are learned when we look at those hidden areas that hurt, the areas we try to cover up with anger.

My biggest sin is pridefullness.

The day I admitted my weakness to God and to myself, I began my road toward my personal recovery. I struggle with that sin on a daily basis.

Find your weak spots TMD. You are a good man with weak spots.

God bless.

Pep

Thank You Pep. I don't disagree with any of that. and Lord knows... I have some major weak spots. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Holy Man! Do I!

<small>[ July 25, 2003, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: TrulyMadlyDeeply ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> that I have a long history of genuine effort and that I finally gave up trying after years of no positive results. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm... interesting. I see three possibilities.

1) SHE was the one sabotaging your efforts back then (If so, do you know why?)

2) You were sabotaging your own efforts back then, too (Could be a pattern here - after all you chose a married OW...)

3) You were like me, and your efforts were not effectively focused mostly due to a lack of information (I did not have clue about my wife's top two EN's), and by the time you found out about EN's, her withdrawal was just too deep.

Does any of that resonate?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by johnh39:
<strong>[QUOTE] that I have a long history of genuine effort and that I finally gave up trying after years of no positive results. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm... interesting. I see three possibilities.

1) SHE was the one sabotaging your efforts back then (If so, do you know why?)

</strong> No I don't. Now... She admits to shutting it all down. She hasn't offered a reason for that. <strong>

2) You were sabotaging your own efforts back then, too

</strong>How exactly did I sabotage my own efforts "back then". I mean... I see the sabotage NOW.... But back then? I do not see that. <strong>

(Could be a pattern here - after all you chose a married OW...)
</strong>

First of all - I can't calculate the pattern to which you refer. My turn to be obtuse. Could you dumb that down for me please?

Secondly - I'm not sure why that "after all you chose a married OW" statement bothers me. But it does.

I did not believe that this would actually turn into an affair. Maybe... deep down I hoped for the personal gratification of knowing that she.. the OW... never stopped loving me either after all these years. But, to me, THAT was the fantasy. For THAT to be realized was a shock to us both.

It NEVER occurred to me to try to initiate an affair. I'll swear that on a stack of Bibles. There was no deductive switch that was thrown. It was quiet subtle actually. During our second meeting and after several phone calls... No physical intimacy... we sat at brunch over a pleasant conversation and she said at one point that she didn't understand why she felt guilty about seeing me... "it's not like we're having an affair or anything" That's when I first realized that I was in the middle of Just That. To me... an affair was romping in the sack with some meaningless OW. It's the perspective that made me turn my nose at those who had affairs... I always thought... "How shallow and short sighted"

Here I sat.. across from the first woman I fell in love with.. realizing as she spoke that my misperceptions of what infidelity was had me already ensconced in a full blown affair of the heart. Which, I know NOW, is the dangerous part of the affair. I was already cooked and so was she and I said to her statement of denial… “Oh but we are.”

I sure a hell don’t feel like I chose that. I feel like it snuck up behind me and massacred me while I was sleeping. [qb]

-TMD

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I'm laughing so hard right now I'm crying.

I get the "pattern" .....how interesting.

So... I relish the plight of the victim? I'll be an S.O.B. I think you've hit it square.

I'm still crying.

I'll have to talk to the counselor about that one.

You've just disarmed me.

damn!

Well well well... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

It may not be relishing the plight of victim it

It could be what the victim status gains us...

free from true responsiblity...and i am not talking about you not taking responsibility for the pain it causes ...I think you see that part...

but victim status frees us from being able to stop change or control as well...
infact it gains a lot of adjectives...which then lead to actions of being 'that type of person" that cheats...even while removing ourselves in thought from that type of person...

One who still wants to or claims to value honesty and trust and commitment...yet whose actions are in direct conflict...

I still can't see why at what ever point in your life or even today you just chalk this up to not working out between two people...I am editing that stupid sentence...I mean after how it has served no people for much good..only pain...not because you don't have feelings or emotins...
why you put so much energy into believing this is it...when that belief has yet to prove to be true...
or even morally correct at times...

most have deep profound loves once or twice in their lives that don't work out...and fate had it worked out could have changed much in each persons life....

but stagnating on that point serves no purpose...

oh well now i'm just off in wondering land...

trulymadly...
i hope you find yourself...maybe "you" isn't who you have created in relationship to holding on to all of this and even her..
... maybe this isn't what is to be defining you....
I still say fear of letting go holds us all back...
the unknown is always scarier than the known...

blessings to you
ARK

<small>[ July 25, 2003, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>

Ark, have a great weekend.

Pep

Thanks Pepp...you also..

I have to work tomorrow...but then there is a neighborhood picinic...and with the addition of a beer or two...I am sure I will make a great blathering fool!!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />