Well, it has finally come down to it, I told my H that I want a D...I have no idea what brought it on tonight but we have had 2 weeks of mininal contact(supposed to be none), and last week we started to have a discussion about me wanting to sell the house, which led to a discussion about us. He basically said for a number of reasons he cannot come home, we talked back and forth etc/ he wanted to call me tonight even though i made it clear that I didn't want him to talk me out of the house and the only conversation I wanted was about us. As we talked he said that he just can't come home right now to try on us when he is in a bad place himself, and that until he can forgive himself he cannot look me in the face. Well the only logical step for me is a D, i cannot move past him as long as I have hope and as long as I am married to him I cling to hope. I am a mess right now, i cannot stop crying I cannot believe that this is where we are at....He made his choice and all I can think is he is too much of a coward to tell me he doesn't want to be married to me so he is making me make that decision. His words mean nothing to me anymore. I honestly thought I would be stronger than this, but I feel like I am having a break down....I hate him so much right now, and that hurts more than anything.....I tend to react so quickly to things that I hope I am making the right decision, because I know if I mull it over, i will allow myself to sit in limbo and I cannot do that anymore because I want him home and have to accept the fact that he doesn't want to come home...what a night......

<small>[ August 10, 2003, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: zacharysmom ]</small>

Sorry to hear this Zacharysmom.

I'm kind of in your situation too where I'm waiting on WW spouse who moved out to decide what she wants. And going through the thoughts of if I should cut my losses with a D or sit tight and wait. I know my WW is still heavily in the fog so I can't hold her too accountable for what she says or her not waking up to the facts.

Are you in Plan B?

Dear Z'smom,

Your current plight brings back a lot of hurtful memories for me. I can feel your pain right through your posts.

Try to view it this way, he can't come home now because he isn't quality material. If he were to come home now it w/b damaging to you and your little one.

So if you can't remain in plan A for a while longer than plan B and D s/b right behind. Seems like you are already attempting to implement plan B but often when the BS does this the WS makes it their aim to break us down.

Will you have more up and down times? Yes. That's a given. So realizing it may help lessen the impact. You can't be prepared for everything but knowing the anxiety attacks and going through the 5 stages of grieving are what is ahead for you will help you brace yourself.

Here is a help I had during that time. An MBer here told me to put my left hand over my right shoulder and right hand on my left shoulder.....go ahead do it......then squeeze.

Did you do it? Don't worry about looking silly. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> You have just received an MB cyber hug from me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

take care,
L.

Thanks Eduard and Orchid,

I did Plan B for a couple weeks, but am very mad that he will not and cannot attempt to work on this, and for that reason I have no hope. He is complacent about the divorce because "I need to need to what I need to do", he has told me this is not what he wants BUt right now he cannot work on us until he works on him and he has no clue what will work...Nothing seems to work for him as he puts it. Maybe it is time to put him and I out of our misery, this has been going on for a year, no other people involved, we have the best friendship (not anymore), but if he doesn't have it in to work on it then it is not important enough to him....

I am so sorry you feel the way you do.(hug) I know what you are feeling. When my H leaves from visiting don't forget my comes here all day Sun, after work Wed,Fri for the past year and half. When he gets into that car I just want to scream does the past 17 years mean nothing to you? My Zach asking me when is it daddys day again two more times when I sleep? That is not right. I asked H the other day if he thought we could fix what we have done? He said, I don't know. I asked are you happy? He mumbled so so. I did not pick this pain, the way I look at it picked me. Again, I am sorry please try to hang in there. I have been reading your posts and hoping for you, so hang in there for as long as you can. If you can do plan B so can I. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> We can do it together. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I think we can , I think we can. No, I know we can, I know we can. Because we are stronger then we think. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

ZM,

The purpose of Plan B is to put some distance between you, protect your feelings and hopefully pull your spouse off the fence. It is unrealistic to expect that a Plan B is going to solve all your problems overnight or force him back into the marriage.

Basically, you have just STARTED Plan B and are already throwing in the towel. I also get the sense that you have still been seeing him and fulfilling his needs.

I just think it is WAY TO SOON to move to Plan D and I wouldn't toss that around unless you feel absolutely certain that you want to end the marriage. I don't sense you are at that point.

You know the situation better than me, but I sense that a well worked Plan B might be hopeful. I know you are frustrated, ZM, but please calm down and reassess here. I don't know why he doesn't want to be married, but I don't believe its hopeless. Hopefully, things will look better this morning, ZM. Take care!

ZM, another thing occurred to me. I know you are having a hell of a time withdrawing from him and that is what led to this. You have to expect a painful withdrawal period before it gets better. Would it help to come here and post more often so we can help you through this phase?

Zachs mom...

Your post does hurt...I hope you find strength from with in...

Here's my musings on this...take what if of value if anything....

The whole martyr approach by some in "i'm such a mess I don't know if I can forgive myself...
makes me want to hurl...

It is just as cruel and a continuation in my opinion of the betrayal....

poor me I'm such a mess up now I don't know if I am worthy of can be forgiven...by others and myself...

bleeeech........ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

You may want to consider longer that when dealing with a conflict avoider and someone who wants to keep things as is to avoid being the "one" to make a move...therefor forcing the other one to do so...and then continuing to claim victim status and saying moronic things...
"you should do what you have to do"...
that you do have some other routes to explore rather than the one he is attempting to force you in too...

Well the only logical step for me is a D, i cannot move past him as long as I have hope and as long as I am married to him I cling to hope.

I would consider..
real real plan B with lots of 180's in there that appear you really are moving on....

I would consider no contact with third party set up for interactions with child.

I would consider making sure he has time with son and you are out and about...looking as if you are filling your life with things...no longer concerned about his wallowing self pity party...

I would consider legal set up of visitation and things that are realistically part of a real divorce without that final step.

I would consider verbalizing some concern about his general well being...and that you hope he is taking care of himself...being as healthy as he can....WS wallowing in self pity don't really expect pity..they expect walls to go up and others to make decisions for them.....and when offered real compassion they are not always sure what to do with it...and sometimes realize that people really do care about them in a healthy way...

I would consider telling him that if he wants a divorce..that you are not doing the dirty work for him.

I would convey to him that his ability to forgive himself is not of great concern to you..that you are only concerned in your ability to forgive and you believe you and all humans hold great capacity to do so...that it is a simple choice and not some mind altering brain trip to do so..

Forgiveness is a lot like love..it has little to do with words...and much to do with actions...

I would also consider one attempt at breaking through that defense of his..

Ask him what if God forbid your son when he is 18 steals a car....and once getting caught your son decides that what he has done is sooo awful that he takes away any channels you and him have to let him know that you still love him and care about him...while at the same time do not approve of the action of stealing...put himself in anothers position for the first time in perhaps a long time...nothing to lose if you try....

just some ramblings Josh'mom...

wallowing bottom suckers of self pity it only rains on me type of people just suck... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

ARK

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by zacharysmom:
<strong>I have no idea what brought it on tonight but we have had 2 weeks of mininal contact(supposed to be none), and last week we started to have a discussion about me wanting to sell the house, which led to a discussion about us. He basically said for a number of reasons he cannot come home, we talked back and forth etc/ he wanted to call me tonight even though i made it clear that I didn't want him to talk me out of the house and the only conversation I wanted was about us. ...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And ZM, no more relationship talks. They are lovebusters that make him defensive and push him back farther on the other side of the fence. I wholeheartedly agree with everything ark says. I think if you concentrate on withdrawing and quit pressuring him, he may come around.

And how do you repair the damage from yesterday? I would send him an email and tell him that you were tired and lost your temper and that you have no intention of ending of the marriage. If he can't come home, you realize he has to do what he has to do and you wish him the best.

But you do think its best to end contact at this time and would refer him to your Plan B letter. Then wish him well. No threats, no relationship talk, no nothing.

ZM - My heart is going out to you - for all your effort, perseverance, and forgiveness.

I have to say (although I'm really not in a position to give advice) that I agree with MelodyLane and Ark. You have just begun Plan B, and yet the implementation of it has not entirely been true to the "no contact."

I can see from your posts how hard this is for you. Remember that you come first in this situation. You need to be strong for your family (because quite obviously your H is not). Implement plan B to it's fullest. Perhaps if you do this, keep at it for a while, and then it becomes obvious that plan D is the only option, then you will feel more at peace with your decision.

As Dr Phil says, noone should walk away from D upset. Which basically means you try all options. Even if he doesn't try, if you exhaust all your options to the fullest extent, you should have some peace with yourself.

Big hugs from this girl in TX....to a woman who has shown more patience and forgiveness than I could ever fathom...

Thank you so much gang...I know, I am jumping at things...The whole R talk last Monday took my by surprise also, it started with the house and he said something that just started the ball rolling. I agree about the R talk and it does back him into a corner but I just feel at a loss. It has been almost a year of guilt and separation, he said last night that he cannot even look at me anymore without thinking of what he did, and when he is in our house it is painful. So I guess, hitting a brick wall and deciding if he cannot choose to work on it then he must not want to ...

He is having a pity party, that's for sure...He has allowed this guilt to consume him and every day he is away he has one more day to feel guilty so he is creating his own problems...But he sees no other way(not that he is looking real hard), because he cannot go through counselling (or will not), so let me mull over all your great advice and I will post again tonight when I have more time and let everything soak in....

D

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ July 29, 2003, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: zacharysmom ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by zacharysmom:
<strong>Thank you so much gang...I know, I am jumping at things...The whole R talk last Monday took my by surprise also, it started with the house and he said something that just started the ball rolling. I agree about the R talk and it does back him into a corner but I just feel at a loss. It has been almost a year of guilt and separation, he said last night that he cannot even look at me anymore without thinking of what he did, and when he is in our house it is painful. So I guess, hitting a brick wall and deciding if he cannot choose to work on it then he must not want to ...

He is having a pity party, that's for sure...He has allowed this guilt to consume him and every day he is away he has one more day to feel guilty so he is creating his own problems...But he sees no other way(not that he is looking real hard), because he cannot go through counselling (or will not), so let me mull over all your great advice and I will post again tonight when I have more time and let everything soak in....

D</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ZM,

I remember those words like they were yesterday coming from my FWS. I agree with Ark. BLEH! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

It might be helpful to you to read two of my hubby's posts. He does talk about this in the post and gives an explaination.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=009732;p=1

This is the second post. Warning before reading it. Hubby's XOW posted in it, so if you are feeling really down, please don't read it.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=009580;p=1

I also agree with the ladies on Plan B. It really saved me.

((((zacharysmom))))

K

You are getting great advice. Please hang in there. Look up the old threads about fog talking back to him. Plan B is about distance and protecting yourself and your love for him NO contact and no talk about your M or R's at all. No big decisions, make him do all the work.

I remember this time in my journey as extremely painful. You must keep posting, find some trusted friends. Get some exercise. Take care of you. Pamper you as you would like H to be doing. Treat yourself as you own best friend. Let him take S on his own. Be cheerful about him taking on his responsibilities as a parent. Check out divorcebusting.com's 180 plan. Very helpful during this time. Also--order "Hope for the Separated" I found the no nonsense advice to be so good, I used to read some parts over and over each night to fortify my courage.

You are not alone, I feel your pain, but hang in there sister, this is a LONG, long road. You are just beginning.

On the topic of search for old posts, look for "Clarity?" I'm pretty sure it was titled "Come on baby lift my fog."

That was got me through 2.5 years ago.

Hey everyone, you have no idea what the support that I get on here means...MelodyLane and Orchid, you have been my rocks with tremendous amounts of wisdom...LIT, even given you are the WS, I have so much respect for you-so you too hang in there...And for all the ones who i am hearing from for the first time...Thank you...This means a lot...

Any way, I have taken the advice given and pulled back on the D, I got his voice mail and said that I was hurt and angry and that maybe that is not the route to go, but that we needed to remain with no contact, like it or not...I needed to figure some things out....I did also say that I felt there was stuff he was hiding and I hope he comes clean some time soon, maybe that will help him/...I am a very reactional person and logically when someone decides that they don't want to work on the marriage anymore,there is no reason to hang around...But on the other end, I do know he is a mess too.....I will do what I need to do to survive, and yes melodylane, maybe I need to post more.....I will act crazy and neurotic but I will do my absolute best....

D

I've read only page one of this thread so I do not know what is said on page 2.

I agree that it sounds like you need a good plan B. And keep that counseling session appointment. If h does not participate, that's ok. Keep it for yourself.

Fixing a marriage is similar to fixing a car. If the car is not running, you take it to a mechanic. If the mechanic (counselor) has only broken parts (people) to put into the car, the car can not be fixed. But if the parts are repaired first, then the car can be repaired.

Work on yourself. Give h space without pressure from you.

And, if appropriate, consider an order of support so that h is required to meet financial obligations to you and child.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Chin up! I respect you like you would never know!!!! You are a very strong person.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by zacharysmom:
<strong>I will do what I need to do to survive, and yes melodylane, maybe I need to post more.....I will act crazy and neurotic but I will do my absolute best....

D</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey, that is what we are here for; dump on us instead of your spouse! Have you heard anything from him since you left the voicemail?

Hi Mel, No I haven't heard anything, he is on PEI with our son and his family....We are meeting half way tomorrow so it will be the first time we see each other....I am not expecting any kind of response but we'll see...i am away for 2 days so will not be posting, but I will be busy so hopefully not obsessing....I just find it so hard when I am thinking what he is doing and with who...

Thanks for staying Mel-you are needed!!!

D