Thanks ZM! Have you thought about how you are going to respond when you see him? I suggest being real pleasant, confident, and DETACHED. Act like there is nothing in the world bothering you with a BIG SMILE. I really liked Ark's suggestions to you and hope you took a good look at them.

I have thought how I will act with him, I guess Ark's advise (thanks by the way), just be cool but pleasant which is really tough for me because I easily fall into the being too nice etc and blapping about everything...I need to keep him at arms length...I am going to send him an e-mail tonight at home just letting him know that I am concerned about him and wish him well....I think one of the things that he has seen is my life is very active and busy, to some degree he feels that I have been doing so well maybe I am better off without him (another pity party)...Well, I am off to bed-early day!!

Ok...So here is the latest-not sure if this is positive or what!!! Since my last post I think on Tuesday, I met my H half way between where I was going and he was coming from to take my son to visit some friends. I was very cool, not quite pleasant but a little stand offish...When we were getting ready to part our ways, I just said that I have 4-5 weeks before we change his plane ticket permanently (we had a long planned family vacation to DisneyWorld), so he had that time to get his head out of his a$$...He just made a joke that I didn't need to put it that way, haha-but he knew what I meant...Any way this a.m. he was taking our son for the day and he called me and I was very cool, letting him know to call when he is almost here and I would have Zach waiting-he said "Are you that angry with me", I said just please call just before...About 10min later the phone rings and it is him asking if I want a coffee, THEN, he said "I thought a lot about what you said and I am going to give it another try", I said "what?", he said "I am going to try counselling again-I know I need to fix this", I was taken back...I said that I was really happy to hear that but would he consider at least the first appt for the 2 of us then we can figure out some guidelines with a 3rd party, I know this is about him and his guilt, but maybe a counsellor can help us to deal with that together, he said that he would definitely consider that. I had already left a msg for the counsellor for me 2 days ago, so will wait and hear back from her....I am hoping and praying this means something but I am not getting my hopes up...I know this is a big step for him to say it, now I need to see it....

What are some thoughts out there-don't worry , I am treading lightly..
D

WOOOOOHOOOO!!!!!!!!1

That is actually great news....

Heaps and heaps of positive reinforcement when he makes an effort...
but you are right to protect your emotional self from that...and not be negative at his attempts...

Make sure you are throwing in there meeting his needs...don't want him to view you as cold or distant..
you want him to see you as happy and moving on with life...
able to still enjoy things...
not wallowing on what he is or isn't doing....

If he asks if you are angry...tell him no...
but don't engage in to much relationship talk...

espoir wrote a beautiful sentiment of forgiveness and guilt when dealing with the ws..I believe it is on MiMi's...please read it...page 33 or 34 I believe <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Her words and approach to healing were dead on...

Yo might want to try a little tiny flirt action on him as well...you don't want to shut him out...what you want to do is show him someone confident and fun to be with....not wallowing in his misery...

the more attractive you are than the other woman the more he will be drawn to you...

you sound great zachsmom....
very cool thing for him too say...
you got his brain working...perhaps he has turned on the fog light and is begining to see a little...
light the path in small confident ways
light it with thoughts that you are worthy of respect...
and well worth the fight....

blessings to you
ARK

AAAAAHHHH, thanks ARK....That put a smile on my face, i am thinking positive but not blind...Will keep my fingers crossed that he will put his money where his mouth his, I will give him those positive signs-and I just got to stay away from that damn R talk...Nothing about us, nothing about us, nothing about us.....Just keep saying that...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> --I am off to the train station to pick a friend up who I haven't see in 21 years -Yikes@!!!

Just a quick note, I have had company here all week and no computer time...Nothing new, but my H did confirm that he has called to get an appt with a counsellor, I am not sure if he called his original one or called our work group to get another one, I didn't really get to ask questions, maybe I will ask him this evening...We have had minimal contact this week, but just pleasant conversations that last about a minute or two....I did call him last evening to see how he was as he was very preoccupied at karate, genuine concern-letting him know if he needs to talk call me....We will see where this leads us...Should I ask him tonight more specifically about the counselling? Or will that seem inquisitive etc?

I would not bring up the counseling...

let him....
and give him postive reinforcement of he is still talking that path..BUT do not take over doing it for him...
don't you find him a counselor...or take any role is this...
but heaps and heaps of kudos for steps he takes...
BUT relate the kudos back to him..so that you are showing care and concern...with little investment of how counseling relates to YOU...

ex.
I think that you seeking counselling would be great...I don't like too see you in so much inner pain.

let him lead that topic..

remember that he has gained a lot of attention and ground footing in playing the ...(I believe I dubbed it the...
wallowing bottom sucker of self pity it only rains on me type of person <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

That is his pattern of operation...that is what has been working for him..
that is what you are no longer participating in..

so be happy too see him...don't give him reason to think you are "mad"...
but a little aloof...

little talk about you..if any ...you want to appear happy and self confident...and hopefully you are begining to feel that way as well..slowly...

Also I am not sure he should go to disney with you....I'm am sure I should go though... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

What do you think about going without him...
what do you think about giving/selling his ticket to family friend/relative so you can still go..
what do you think of modifying his plans...so he meets you there for couple of days...but not the whole trip...

the trip is scarey with his behavior...and I would want him not to go right now in this point in the game...
But I think you should....
perhaps if you do have some time...and he really is in counselling...BUT be very wary that he does not do ALL the right thingS to go to disney with you all...then drops/dumps you...
IMAGINE sitting on plane coming home wearing mouse ears...and goofy next too you saying...

"Well I think that we gave that a try and perhaps I am just not ready to move on with you right now."...

eeeek that scares even me....

disney will always be there....(like twinkies!!)
his and your healing is bigger than that...

what are thinking about the trip..

also flirt a little if you can stan it..
batt your eyes....
pepperband recomends a little hair flip...
light some wonderful smelling candle in the house...have some fun music on...
be having fun when he walks in...not sitting there waiting for him...
so oh is it that time already..yike didn't notice...

smacks of game playing....but the poor me i'm so bad Eeyore routine is just as well..

ARK

Oh My gosh Ark-you crack me up-and still get your point across......

Ok, so I just don't question the counselling and assume because he said that he has "called", that he is taking the right step and let him know I am hanging in there/proud of him....Makes sense...

Now for the Disney thing-I am in the exact same thought process-I don't want this to be a false start, but honestly I am hoping it is a thought of what is to be missed for future, all the things Zach and I do that we did as a family. The option of selling the ticket is a no-go, already checked it out with the airline, he can use the ticket for anywhere Air Canada flies within a year of the orig. date but no one else can use it...

But no worries, I am completely planning on going either way and he knows that too, our son is too excited, now the prospect of bringing a strange man that I met online could add some spice to this whole thing..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I definitely have to see some major steps before it is ok for all us to go...NOW the major question!!!!! Do I let him know (this has been on my mind), that if there is no positive changes, I will be filing for D???? It will have been a year since he bailed and I am sorry, but I am really lonely and I cannot see that if after he doesn't want to move forward with my life--and I definitely cannot do that married..i know that may sound selfish, but I think a year is long enough for someone to hold out hopes...Even though I may not be ready at that point for a D, it could take 6 months to finish it....

What repercussions do you see with a "If nothing happens by Sept 8th, I will be filing for a D", with a slight explanation of why....What do you think?? Is that pushing it...Honestly I feel right now that a year is really a long time to have my life in limbo and although I am glad I have taken that year for me, I need to somehow move on.....

Just thinking!!

D

<small>[ August 07, 2003, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: zacharysmom ]</small>

I think ultimatums you make too yourself are fine...

don't tell him...no point...he will do and needs to do what he will...BUT so do you...

don't tell him nothing...

I would not bring up disney world either ...assume he is not going...and go that route...

if he questions you...babble back..

don't power struggle it...and just say things like..
we'll see. or i don't know...

you may want to file or seek legal counsel regardless of his actions...

they can always be stopped...

that woud benefit you...and may wake him up or may not..but that's not your problem or job...

but no forwarning...that can back fire...you made him do this or that...blah blah blah...
steer your ship on a steady course...and if the dingy catches up...wooo hoo...now that image even cracked me up... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

ARK

"you may want to file or seek legal counsel regardless of his actions...

they can always be stopped...

that woud benefit you...and may wake him up or may not..but that's not your problem or job...

but no forwarning...that can back fire...you made him do this or that...blah blah blah..."

So you don't think that I should mention it-just when Sept 8th comes-move forward... I thought it might help to know that I am thinking of some time lines-if he wants to move forward he has a set time to show something, instead of the limbo world that he is living in?? I am torn about ultimatums that is why I am asking-I can see some positive in them at times and others I definitely see them as an issue-so I am stuck myself...

his limbo has nothing too do with you being in limbo...

his actions define him...if he only makes serious moves towards anything based on "perceived" threats, no choices, or because you made him do it, this or that...then you have won nothing...

Worse yet he feels backed in to a corner...
accuses you of controlling him...

you want his attention....be pleasant...supportive of good behaviors and appear to moving on with controlling what you can...

i encourage you to file..but not under the guise of an ultimatum....a year is a long time...
don't let his actions or inaction hold you back...do what you need to...

ark

Ok, so after all this positive stuff, my H just dropped our son off and we had a big blow up about a vacuum cleaner-of all things....It started like this:
H-"I just spent $100 out of the 150 I had left on a vacuum cleaner"
Me-"Why, my sister said you could have hers all you were going to do was switch the green one for hers".
H_"Well, I thought she was gone away and I needed one, my place is a mess"
Me-"I told you that you could borrow mine in the mean time on the weekend"
He put his head down and was rubbing his temples, and I said "go please, if you are going to get mad I don't want you here"....He left then called from his cell phone and said"What was that all about? blah blah blah," I just told him that I couldn't stand that hopelessness attitude when he knew he had options (Major LB, I know), but he caused this himself...He couldn't stand depending on me and he would have felt like a twit borrowing my vacuum after me not wanting any contact with him, I said well Beth was home on Monday...He said "I didn't know that"--but he also chose not to ask...Any way crappy end to a night-now we are not speaking period...over a stupid vacuum....Man-how does this $hit happen??????

My h called this morning and apologized, he said that he agrees sometimes he does use me as a place to target his anger-even though I am the last one who should get it. I told him I was tired of his hopelessness, as simple as a vacuum is, it is frustrating when everything seems like it is out of your control. He understood and apologized again, he thought a lot about it and understood,...

To go back to your last post Ark, I guess what I was trying to do was give a time limit without making it an ultimatum-but I guess it is what it is....I wanted to let him know what I am thinking and he can make the choice if he wants to react quickly (if he really wants to), or do more "thinking"....I guess I have more to think about because I don't want a decision that is made out of being forced-good or bad decisions...

Cheers,
D

<small>[ August 08, 2003, 07:25 AM: Message edited by: zacharysmom ]</small>

Hi ZM,

Have you made a decision that you are moving to D on September 8? Here is what I think and you can take it for what its worth.

I think you need to first do a CLEAN Plan B for a while and see if that can save the marriage. I know you are tired of living in limbo, but often Plan B can protect your feelings by removing you from the situation and motivate your H off the fence.

You have not been doing a Plan B. Doing things like calling him to see how he is entirely defeats the purpose of Plan B. It tells him that you are willing to still meet his needs and will wait around forever for him. Therefore, he can fence sit for another 12 years. The idea is to NOT meet his needs AND detach from him the bargain so that, IF you have to move to divorce, you are not destroyed all over again.

Personally, I would give Plan B a REAL CHANCE before I thought about divorce. AND, when you are ready for divorce, just tell him straight out. Tell him you have decided that if you see no change by XXY, you are filing for divorce. No ultimatum, just a statement of fact. See what I mean? But, I still believe he would respond to Plan B if it were done correctly.

I know MelodyLane, I have been really bad at Plan B, I have only followed through part way where we used to sit and talk every day and I was always putting my feelings out there, now our conversations are very to the point about Zach (with the exception of the day I called to see how he was doing), I guess I am torn with wanting him to know I still care but need him to know this is not going to be forever. I think I will send him an e-mail today and let him know that while he is deciding on counselling and what he wants to do, we should remain with no contact. I will position it in a light that is for both of us, it will give him some breathing room to decided what he wants to do and it will allow me to protect my feelings for him...What do you think?? I know I need to follow this through, but our lives are so inter-twined with work and child etc.....I just find it difficult to cut off all ties, but I will attempt again....

ZM, the idea is to STOP meeting his needs and avoid him as much as possible. I would just tell him that you are taking a break and really need to end contact for now. WHEN he is ready to work on the relationship to get in touch with you, until then you are moving on. And stay on message and don't back down. When he starts talking to you about anything other than work or housekeeping issues with your son, cut him off.

Go read some of Mortarman's posts about how he did Plan B. They were still in contact due to the kids, but that is all the talk he would allow.

But please, ZM, just consider giving it a try before you move to Plan D if you can.

I just rec'd a call from my H to discuss what time to meet with our son and he said "I got your e-mail", I said "yes", and he said "can we talk about it this weekend", I said "we'll see"....So if we do discuss, it will only be what he wants to move forward with or not. If he wants to move forward then we can talk if not then we end the discussion. One thing I stated in the e-mail is if he is moving into any R's I hope to have to be respected and told as we are still married, and I would like him to respect that, so maybe that is what he wants to discuss, maybe he has something to confess-not sure, felt good about his comment at first but now thinking it may be about something more...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by zacharysmom:
<strong>So if we do discuss, it will only be what he wants to move forward with or not. If he wants to move forward then we can talk if not then we end the discussion. ...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good girl! You are right on target! Like Mortarman say, STAY ON MESSAGE like a politician and become a politician with that message. I would not bring up the dating thing again, though. Don't let him know you are even thinking about it. I understand your fears, though.

Ok, so I just got a call from my H at 4:30 pm asking if he can come over tomorrow after his grievance meeting to talk...He said he just came back from one of his freaky excursions--a few months back he took off and called me at 2AM-he just drove for like 7 hours thinking...Well yesterday he took off ended up about 4-5 hours away and was just on his way back now..spent the day at the beach by himself slept in his car, so he is hoping we can talk tomorrow...???? Maybe he did some soul searching I am not sure, let's hope for the best....

While I was typing this he just called again and said that on the 23rd (that is my weekend with Zach)it is his boss's bbq and he wants Zach to go as well as me..I said that Tom(his boss) and I spoke of it and he said managers and spouses were invited (I cannot really qualify myself as his spouse right now), so I assumed I wouldn't be going especially because of plan b...I said we can discuss it closer to the day, he said no problem....

I will let you know what happens tomorrow evening..I am praying for some good news...

Z...

Just posted to you on my Plan B They're Going Away Together thread.