I am really becoming concerned about X. Last night we sat and over as cup of tea at the usual donut shop, had a long talk about his life issues. Things are out of control and getting worse by the moment for him. He had tears in his eyes that he kept blinking back during the conversation. I want to help him so badly, but there isn’t anything that he’d let me do. The pressures of all of his responsibilities are finally climaxing and I am seriously worried that either one or both of his parents, or he will commit suicide. I’m not sure what to say because he’s never listened to me in the past. Ironically, the things that I had suggested over the last few years are the exact conclusions that he is reaching now. I know that he has to be the one to ask for help. My question is whether or not he is crying out for help now?

So, as he was getting ready to leave for his trip, his eyes mist up again. I could not hold back any longer so I reached out my hand for him. As I did this, I asked him to talk to me. I tried to encourage him to tell me what was wrong. He jerked his hand away and pulled it into him as if he was a child that had been burned. I continued to hold my hand out and finally he put his in mine. I grabbed that hand with both of mine and held it. Then I looked at him and said:
“I am so worried about you. I care so much and hate to see you in pain. You matter to me.”
His response: “I didn’t matter to you while you were running around with OM!” I acknowledged that my actions were wrong. I then found myself trying to illustrate to him the dynamics of the WS thinking. I offered to him the example of the night that my house was broken into.

In a very loving, non-accusatory way I illustrated the effect of the FOG using situation that happened between us. I repeated what had happened between him and I that night. Then I said to him, I know that you cared about what happened to me then, but you were so caught up in doing what you wanted that my needs were not important. I repeated the things he said, which were very hurtful and then I told him that it was okay that he made that choice. At that point, I told him that I know that he cares about me and loves me, even during that time. Then I said, it was the same type of thing that I went through when I treated him so badly. He seemed to understand, but was sitting in his anger as he listened. He didn’t let go of my hand.

I continued by talking about his Mom’s depression and how her actions right now aren’t very loving. I commented that even though her actions are saying one thing, that deep down he knows that she loves the people that she’s hurting. I tried to explain how lost a person is when they are depressed. I tried to tell him that she doesn’t have the tools to understand how to fix it. It’s strange, but the complaints that he had about that situation mirrored my own complaints about him during my “A”. It’s as if he is now me and she is he. When I asked him if he saw any patterns he said no.

Anyway to continue, I said to him at one point that he mattered. That every gift he ever sent while I was in the FOG reached me. I told him that at first it angered me, but after the third of fourth one, I started appreciating his efforts. I told him that it was one of the reasons I looked back. I also said that if he didn’t matter, I never would have stopped to look back. I would have left and never looked back.

His next remark is the one that leaves me unsettled. His comments were: “You shouldn’t have looked back. You just made OM’s life harder because you did.”

What could I say to that?

During the conversation we also talked about changes. I told him that I prayed every day for God to heal him. I told him that if I had a magic wand, I would take it all back, except for the changes that have occurred in me. I told him that I was grateful for who I am today and would never want to be anything less than that. I told him that no matter where our lives take us in our journeys, that he will always matter to me.

I also told him again that I was sorry.

I just wanted him to know that someone loved him unconditionally.

I think rock bottom is looming for him. Granted GF has been out of town so I’m sure he’s dealing with some of what he’s running from when she’s there. It’s hard to watch someone you care so much for come completely undone. It’s harder when you’ve walked through that darkness yourself and can only sit and hold out a flashlight.

Looks like I need to find some new batteries.

<small>[ August 12, 2003, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: kily ]</small>

Want my translation?

"You shouldn't have looked back because you made it harder for ME. It would have been easier if you hated me and didn't want me around, now I am second-guessing everything and wondering if I am making the right decision for me and the kids (and I know I'm not but I'll blame you to make myself feel better)."

ALS

Kily,

I think that I agree with ALostSoul. You making it harder on OM is probably the last of his concerns, it would be mine, even if I had moved on. I think he means it has made it harder on the TWO OF YOU. Just use every opportunity that you have to try to reassure him about who you are now and what you have realized. It will probably take some effort to get over the wall that he has erected.
NW

kily:

Yep. Be4 ALS's translation, I couldn't quite make sense of that. I don't know if he's right, but it makes more sense than taking what he said literally.

♥2long

All-

Thanks for your input guys. I just found the whole scene to be very surreal.

Imagine how weird it was for me to see him with tears in his eyes after everything we've been through. It was strange to see him so vulnerable after all of the pain that I caused him.

Imagine how hard it must have been for him to sit there in such pain, and struggle with wanting comfort but knowing that I'm the one person that had the power to tear his heart out and walk all over it.

Giving me his hand must have been VERY difficult. Listening to my words of comfort and love must have torn him to pieces. I hope that I was able to give him a little confort though.

As for the OM comment, I think that X realizes how much damage was caused all around. I think he realizes that OM had deep feelings for me and that NC hurt him in a similar fashion that it hurt X. Maybe he's just feeling empathy for someone else who's human? Who knows.

Anyway, I DON'T regret looking back and at least letting him know that he matters. He is fighting me tooth and nail on that because to accept that fact, means that he had been right to fight for us. A very deep thought that I'm sure he's in no frame of mind to expolre right now.

The facts are that he is seeing me for who I am, and it is affecting him. I am also at a place where I am happy. Sure there are days when I still hit my lows, but they are less frequent and less severe than before.

I do believe that he is in a downward spiral now and that it is a matter of time. I hate watching it, but I know that in the end, the rewards are tremendous.

Thanks-

Hi Kily,
I can see you have been helping a lot of people, and doing a good job of it too. I commend you.

His next remark is the one that leaves me unsettled. His comments were: &#8220;You shouldn&#8217;t have looked back. You just made OM&#8217;s life harder because you did.&#8221;

I believe he was looking for you to say that you cared a lot more about him than you did for OM. That would be consistant with other things he has said, and with him continuing to seek assurance that you have no feelings for OM, but that you do (still) for him. He would seek safety from you before he let his feelings show.

You are wise to beileve that he is or was lonely with OW away, and that he may not have these same feeings if she was there "comforting" him. While I know you have your up's and down's, you are much stronger, and I believe you can wait and see.

SS

<small>[ August 07, 2003, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Yes, he probably meant that you made it harder on him. Maybe he's wondering what I still wonder from time to time. Was it a mistake to take you back? It tears him up that he can't be sure. He knows you did it once, wonders if you will again, and there is no way on earth to tell. So when you looked back, decided to stay in the marriage, it forced him to deal with these questions. At times, when the recovery gets difficult, I have been envious of people on here whose cheating spouses leave and make the decision for them.

He's still angry, hurt, and bitter. That is the natural response to what you did. It sounded like you tried to explain your emotions during the affair by pointing to times in the past when he didn't meet your needs. As a BS, that enfuriates me when my FWW does that, and it is not helpful to recovery. We twist it in our heads and convince ourselves that what you are saying is, "You have no right to be mad at me, you did stuff that was just as bad."

If he doesn't believe you cared for him when you were having an affair, that too is a natural response. It's damn near impossible for a BS to believe that the cheating spouse had any love or respect in their heart for the BS when it was going on. Or (the thinking goes), if there was love and concern, there wasn't enough love and concern even to simply not have sex with another person. It sounds like where his head is now, you won't convince him of this point.

He's scared to turn to you for comfort. It's like getting shot and then having the shooter want to come over and administer first aid. So until there's more healing, which will come only with time, he'll get mad when you try to help. Of course, he'll get mad when you don't. It's a terrible position for you to be in.

I don't know your story. Your BS may have been really terrible to you before you had an affair, and may be abusing you about it now. So I'm not at all fussing, just telling you that a lot of what you described sounds really familiar to a BS.

SS-

Yes, I find that this forum has given me so much and each time I reach out, I learn SO much more...

How's the trip?

Anyway, I think I've learned enough about "A"s and FOG to know what to look out for and where to be careful. I also know enough about my spiritual side to recognize a "moment" when it happens.

This occurance was not something trivial. I felt as if it was a pivitol point and something shifted because of the interaction. To me, it was significant because I finally saw what "spiritually" I had been anticipating - that he is struggling with his demons now.

Whether she is there or not isn't really a factor. This was something that X had to get to so that He can change his life. He is on a spiral and her presence may delay the inevitable, but it will happen.

For me, this "looking back" became MORE than just trying to save a relationship. It became a quest to learn how to love, repect, care for, and understand people. It became a desire to help others in pain and to offer them tools, and a hand if they wanted to take it.

I'm grateful that X took my hand...it was offered with the purest of love and intentions, with no strings attached. It's more important that he address his demons and heals inside, than it is for US to be a couple. If that never happenes, I will STILL be holding out my hand. Just as I do on this forum...

Hi Working-

Thanks for posting. YOu have offered me much to consider and I'm grateful for your input.

I wanted to address some of your points too. I felt that some of what I may offer could help YOU in your own quest for healing...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Was it a mistake to take you back? It tears him up that he can't be sure. He knows you did it once, wonders if you will again, and there is no way on earth to tell. So when you looked back, decided to stay in the marriage, it forced him to deal with these questions. At times, when the recovery gets difficult, I have been envious of people on here whose cheating spouses leave and make the decision for them.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He hasn't taken me back. He chose someone else.
To answer your own struggle with that question, I will offer you this:
I know that when I turned around it was a moment that neither of us expected. Truthfully, I had an epiphany of what I wanted in my life. I recognized the dreams that he was trying to get me to see, and I truly did wake up and see that they were close to my own dreams.

When I made that choice to come home and give it my all, I was ready to committ my heart and soul into doing EVERYTHING that I possibly could to show him how much he mattered to me. I vowed to myself that if I was granted the one chance, I would cherish that gift of a leap of faith that he gave me - every day of my life. I would take a daily inventory of my own actions and choices, and every day choose to follow through with the Vow that I would make to him, if he ever allowed it to happen.

See, once you've completely lost something, and then gain clarity as to the why's and the responsibilities that you owned and your partner owned - you would do ANYTHING in the world to protect it and make it better if you had a second chance. I feel that way, and I think most truly remourseful WS's would agree.

Recovery is the greatest GIFT that you could ever have offered each other. I just pray that you both have the wisdom to understand just how wonderful that CHOICE is. Instead of having to start over with a complete stranger, and destroy your children's family, you have a chance to explore the wonderful person that you married, and really learn about who they are. You have the opportunity to put it all back together - but this time you KNOW where the flaws are. You can rebuild that foundation and make it weather proof because the cracks and leaks are now known.

YOu have the opportunity for the first time to have a truly HONEST and trusting relationship with someone. Once a remourseful WS comes out and recommitts, you can bet that (s)he will become the most honest and accountable person that you could ever wish for. They know how far the fall takes them...do you honestly belive that after struggling therough everything and coming home that they would fall BACK into the trap? Not ME!

That's why I'm here.

Imagine if you never had the opportunity to try. How much pain would you feel nkowing that you could do it differently if you only had a chance? I know THAT feeling. My choice though - to continue to be a freind and support for my X. It hurts, but I do love him, and my kids. Whatever his choices are, I respect. I do treat him the best that I can because that is who I am. Hopefully he will heal. I do know that he does love me. That is all that matters.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He's still angry, hurt, and bitter. That is the natural response to what you did. It sounded like you tried to explain your emotions during the affair by pointing to times in the past when he didn't meet your needs. As a BS, that enfuriates me when my FWW does that, and it is not helpful to recovery. We twist it in our heads and convince ourselves that what you are saying is, "You have no right to be mad at me, you did stuff that was just as bad." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I know he feels these things. Truthfully, I was trying to provide him with a frame of reference so that he could make a judgement based on his own feelings. He has EVERY right to feel what he feels. I acknowledge and accept all of the good and bad that happened at my hands. I don't expect for him to own what is mine. Sure, he owns his stuff too. I wasn't trying to point fingers - what I was trying to do was to say - this is how you felt then...you were angry, hateful, and in retreat, but you still had feelings for me even though you didn't show them. Isn't it fair to say that if that's the case, then a WS could also feel the same way?

You're right though. I could see how this might be interpreted the wrong way. I only pray that he saw my point. I offered this in an understanding, loving manner - Not in an accusatory way. Thanks for the feedback here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If he doesn't believe you cared for him when you were having an affair, that too is a natural response. It's damn near impossible for a BS to believe that the cheating spouse had any love or respect in their heart for the BS when it was going on. Or (the thinking goes), if there was love and concern, there wasn't enough love and concern even to simply not have sex with another person. It sounds like where his head is now, you won't convince him of this point </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YOu're right. He has to come to it on his own. The facts are that I loved him so much that I turned the pain inward for fear of loosing him. Look where that led. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He's scared to turn to you for comfort. It's like getting shot and then having the shooter want to come over and administer first aid. So until there's more healing, which will come only with time, he'll get mad when you try to help. Of course, he'll get mad when you don't. It's a terrible position for you to be in.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not really a terrible position. Just one that needs to be understood and that needs a real plan in order to address. The facts are, I made a choice. I will be there for him, in friendship or companionship, if he will allow this. I'm not asking for things in return because it is MY choice. I truly love him as the father of my child, and as the person that has shared my life with me for fourteen years now. He is free to be who he wants to be. If he can't recognize the sincerity of who I am, then he is blind. Personally, I feel that I am starting to reach him though. He would NEVER have cried in front of me and allowed me to hold his hand if I was anything less than what I am.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know your story. Your BS may have been really terrible to you before you had an affair, and may be abusing you about it now. So I'm not at all fussing, just telling you that a lot of what you described sounds really familiar to a BS. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My story is the same as everyone's on this board. We made mistakes, lost ourselves, and had to crawl out of the hell that we created, hopefully as better people. We both made bad decisions. It's what we choose to do today that makes the difference.

You've really affected me with your words.

Thank You.

Hi Kily,
You seem to be doing well this week.

Is it real, or is it seem?
Not sure why I ask - feeling mostly.

Trip was fine, was W's side family reunion in Zion Park. Hiked a lot, rode bike, and generally got tired. For our family it is a 45 minute drive, but for most of the others it was a big trip.

I still have comments, but no time to write. Actually it is the thinking that takes time for me. A person would think it would be easier by now, but for some reason it is not.

SS

kily:

I don't have a lot 2 say this morning (gotta work this weekend!), but I did want 2 acknowledge your last post, with a simple three-letter word...

wow

♥2long

Kily,
I'm glad you posted . I've been wondering how you're doing.

These words of yours made me want to weep:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> See, once you've completely lost something, and then gain clarity as to the why's and the responsibilities that you owned and your partner owned - you would do ANYTHING in the world to protect it and make it better if you had a second chance. I feel that way, and I think most truly remourseful WS's would agree.

Recovery is the greatest GIFT that you could ever have offered each other. I just pray that you both have the wisdom to understand just how wonderful that CHOICE is. Instead of having to start over with a complete stranger, and destroy your children's family, you have a chance to explore the wonderful person that you married, and really learn about who they are. You have the opportunity to put it all back together - but this time you KNOW where the flaws are. You can rebuild that foundation and make it weather proof because the cracks and leaks are now known.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm still praying for that second chance, and I still have faith it will happen .

I know that your xBF has a new person in his life, but it seems to me he truly isn't 'over you' at all. To me it seems like he jumped into this new relationship way too fast, as an escape from dealing with you and his issues, together. I guess I'm restating the obvious, but I felt it needed to be said again. Kily, continue living your life the best way you can, and see what time brings.

How is your son doing? And your older one, too?

Take care, and please keep us updated,
H_P

All- I posted this on Cerri's thread, but I need support today.

The lawyers are trying to get X and I to settle the custody thing out of court. X doesn't want to budge, and I'm tired of shouldering the burden for everything. The attitude is: "You left me for OM and I don't want to disrupt DS life any more than it already has been.

My take on it is: He travels all the time, and I'm driving all the time to get DS to and from school. I have him 56% of the time and I'm the more stable parent.

Again he doesn't want to budge.

We ended up in a really big talk - that I had to force because the topic keeps getting danced over. The talk ended up being about who did what to who and I observed that it was okay for him to throw my choices in my face. The minute I talk about all the "STUFF" that went on before though, he comments that "And you left me because of it. I don't know WHY we're even discussing this...

I just feel like he hides behind my choices and when he's asked to address his side of things, he convininetly dismisses it.

Then when I raised the issue about traveling, he offers: I'm looking for a new job.

Like THAT is supposed to make it all better.

I guess I'm looking for a better way to broach the issues. I need to register DS for school next week and there is only a temporary agreement in place. I am so frustrated because I'm being forced to be the bad guy - yet again.

I told him that if DS did stay in school in the town where X is living, then I WILL be moving back into the home because DS needs stability and I'm tired of driving all over the place. I calmly stated my point of view that X ended up with everything - house, DS school, etc. and that it was unfair. I told him that leaving everything behind was one of the most difficult things that I ever had to do, but that now we need to resolve all of the unsettled stuff.

He's the one that FILED the lawsuit and he doesn't do anything to tie up all the loose ends.

Am I being unreasonable? I feel like I'm the psycho X that crazily persecutes her former partner out of desperation. I know that this isn't me, but sometimes I feel that way.

I even told X that I feel like I've been banging my head against a concrete wall for a year now. (This week is D-DAY 1 anniversary 2 yrs)

He tells me this morning that he feels that he kicked and screamed and did everything to get me to change my mind, and now he feels I'm taking the only thing he has left!

I can't win no matter what I do. I never could. I feel like I've been begging this person my whole life to look outside his own world. What the heck is wrong with me?

Any thoughts or suggestions?

kily:

I hate 2 say it, but I don't think he's "grown" or learned the "lesson" he needs 2 learn from this.

"He tells me this morning that he feels that he kicked and screamed and did everything to get me to change my mind, and now he feels I'm taking the only thing he has left!"

And he'll continue 2 feel that way so long as he keeps kicking and screaming (resisting) and doesn't learn anything.

"I can't win no matter what I do. I never could. I feel like I've been begging this person my whole life to look outside his own world. What the heck is wrong with me?"

Nothing is wrong with you. Nothing is wrong with him, either. He just needs 2 learn at his own glacial pace, it seems.

Look, I was like that 2. Still feel that way sometimes about my W and the way she's coping with the aftermath of her own A. I sometimes find myself thinking "why don't you just stop trying 2 do xxxx, and instead face your own choices, this would be so much easier". But the truth is she has 2 do things her own way if we're BOTH going 2 "win" because either one of us losing isn't an option.

I would not settle out of court at this time, because your X has not learned what he needs 2, and won't if you do under these circumstances. The blame-shifting has 2 end.

-2long

Agree with 2long.

When you start on the road to repentance, you cannot undo the bad things that happened, you just go on and do the best you can do to make things work. You made bad choices and you have to live with the results. He made bad ones also, and you should not keep him from his consenquences or he will not learn. I notice that God did not keep you from yours, even though he could have done so. Can you do as well in letting him experiance his?

Remember that some arguments, even though very persuasive, are still wrong. You know how to tell what is right, what can you tell me about that after reading this?

Leaving for LV this morning, better go.

SS

Kily

I wanted to let you know I was thinking of you at this difficult time. Your worry and care for X is palpable and I don't have many great words of advice. I think you did well to show him you are there and will continue to be if he needs you. But during this difficult time, remember to look out for yourself too.

On the Q of the custody, again, I wish I could have some wise words. Try again to talk to X or do you have a mutual friend who may be able to help you out? I'm sure the reality of having to go to Court for X would be much greater than he possibly imagines. It won't be easy. Could you perhaps write to him to explain your POV?

Not very helpful I know, but just wanted to let you know I am thinking of you and wishing you well from steamy hot London.

Lisa

2long-

Thanks for your perspective. I love who you are today and although I didn't know you then, it's hard to imagine that you were ever that way. I do have to remind myself that I am okay and that I can't make him understand the things that he doesn't have the tools to understand. I just have to keep looking at me and let go of what I can't control.

It hurts me to know that we both will still have much pain from all of this, but you're right...I had to learn how to work with my faults. Either he will learn, or he will resent me for life. I can't make his choices for him.

Still Seeking-

Despite all of the emotional pulls, I am doing well. I'm hitting the bumps, but I am questioning the reactions to them all the time and trying to improve.

I found myself angry with God yesterday after I had these words with X. Luckily, I was on my way to church immediately after that, and I sat and thought about things for a while.

The facts are that this situation will have to climax this week, and X is going to feel his pain, just like I do. I realize that any position I take will seem threatening to X because he is going to have to loose something and he doesn't want to. I've been overcompensating to try and make up for what I took and by doing that, I've prevented the consequences to fall.

I feel awful that we are both in this situation and when I came away from that talk, I wondered why he would ever want to be with someone like me. Unfortunately, the climax will happen soon, and he is going to feel deep pain not only because of the child changes but because it is also D-day anniversary 1 and D-day anniversary 2.

You asked me what I feel after reading your thoughts. I think you already know. I'm ashamed that I stooped to the level of having to defend myself. I'm ashamed that I am so afraid that X's judgements of me are correct that I had to "punish" him by lashing out and forcing him to acknowledge what I NEED for him to acknowledge. I participated in the blame game and I know better. I do know what my accountabilities are. He knows that too, but those words: You left me so deal with it etc....hold so much power and he KNOWS it.

I did call my lawyer today and I want her to stop trying to have us negotiate things. It isn't working and I think that the court will be a fair judge of what's best for DS. I've said this before, but the lawyers seem to think that we can work it out on our own.

I'm tire of being punished and manipulated. I know that I don't want to put myself in this position anymore. I'm not trying to take his son. I'm trying to give him some permanency in a very disruptful situation.

Do you all realize that he is bounced back and forth every night. How fair is that to him?

H_P-

I read your thread. I'm so excited for you. It will get better, I have great feelings about your sitch.

My kids are well. Other than this custody issue, life has been pretty smooth for us. I hate having to go through this, but the lawyers insist that we talk about it and come up with a solution. So far, we've made a few appointments to talk about it. When we meet, we talk about everything...except for the custody. It's as if it will just go away and things will continue as they do today. That isn't going to work as DS gets older.

Anyway-
thanks for listening and popping in.

Lisa-

Thanks for your words too. I wish I could have a mutual friend to talk to him, but when we severed, so did our friendships. There's no one in his "grouP" that would even give me the time of day.

I feel like I've done everything to support X because of what I did to him. I think that he expects this to continue forever, and like still seeking suggested, it's time to let the consequences happen. I just need to sit back and put my faith into the beliefs that I hold in my heart.

Thanks.

kily:

"I feel like I've done everything to support X because of what I did to him."

He's using this 2 manipulate you.

Kily, the simple fact is that you never did ANYTHING 2 him. NOTHING whatsoever!

You made a bad choice, perhaps, but your A wasn't doing something 2 him. His perception of it as an attack on him personally is what's "doing" this 2 him. It's what's tormenting him.

He's dwelling on an incomplete, assumption-ridden perspective of the PAST, and so he's completely oblivious 2 the person you are NOW.

I have hopes that someday he'll realize what's right there in front of him, because he has 2. He will have you as a coparent for the rest of his life now.

The fu2re can be glorious, but only if we choose to make it so, right now.

♥2long