Hello MBers and thanks to anyone who has the time to read this.
My WH and I have been muddling along together and funnily enough only 2 weeks ago I was telling my IC that finally I feel confident that the A is over and that he is back working on our M.He has been attentive, considerate, even affectionate....

But he has been training for a big sports event-his first triathlon-and he did it last weekend. And last night he was telling me he had emailed some friends to tell them his time, and I asked him who else he had emailed. He looked shifty, so I said specifically," did you email OW about the triathlon time?" Well he answered no, that he doesn't even have her email address. I said " well you know that if you did contact her again it would be a disaster don't you?" he answered that yes, that's why he hadn't done so.

But the whole time he was fiddling about in the fridge and didn't make eye contact with me once.

Now, my instincts have been right every time I have suspected there has been cintact and for ages they have been quiet.

So what do I do? Ignore them? He seems less affectionate in the past week also.Am I just neurotic-do I go fishing for proof? We are due to go on hols this week.

And what do I do if he has renewed contact-I am 15 months since original D day, not sure if I can do this all over again...

Any help very welcome please.
Oh we never did go to Plan B and he has never moved out. He is a cakeating fencesitter. He doesn't want to lose his kids and his nice home-in fact we are just remortgaging together!

Deluded, trying to stay calm and focussed. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I am not one for the GREAT responses, my opion to you is yes , if there are things to check cell, e-mail ect. I would do it .

From the way I understand it (and am in it) Trust takes awhile also through recovery you will have these feelings , I find that the more I prove myself WRONG (I hope that is the case) the better it makes me feel .

Once in a while I check the phone or other things with out him knowing , is it dishonest , well I tell him after woods LOL

I explain my imagination ran or I just was feeling insecure and now that I did it I feel better and I thank him that I found nothing .

MY H sometimes laughs and says what ever rocks your socks honey !! LOL

THIS begining part of recovey is so hard , sometimes gut instincts are old fears .

FWS make them self accountable for time and things to that nature but lets face it unless we put LOJACK on them and FBI bugs theres just no way any BS will ever know there every movement . JMVHO . Thats why trusting does start very early on in away .

So snoop if it will make you sleep better and if not wait a week or so to see if there are any red flags . Sorry if I didn't help any .

Good luck and I hope you find nothing .

Hello Deluded

I am glad to hear from you and see how you are doing.

I think 3isa last sentence sums it all up - if it makes you feel better to know one way or the other snoop. If not, leave it be and carry on. Being less affectionate this week could purely be the very hot weather. I feel quite crusty at times!!!

Whatever you do, remember that you have come a long way from those early days. There will always be bumps in the road to recovery, but are you still firmly on the path?

Lisa

Thanks for the prompt replies 3isacrowd and Lisa. They both help a lot. I have decide to take a wait and see approach. I do check his phone but he wised up to that ages ago and told me that OW doesn'(didn't) call him on that. Access to his email is difficult as it is at work, requires a trip in to see him, have to get past the secretaries, he has an office on a corridor with door always open etc....But not impossible.
However I have jsut heard of a PI who can get copies of phone records so may look into that if this continues. H phoned me at lunchtime to ask if I was ok because I was cross this morning-I told him it was because I was under stress because of packing for our hols and that I would like to discuss our life-I have decided I need to formally ask him to do more. He was ok about that and said if I have a problem I should tell him about it. Trouble is if I tell him the problem is I think he's lying, he will just get annoyed and we will go round in circles...oh he is reasonable but also reasonably points out that he can't PROVE he is not in contact . But that fact he rang is reassuring to me.

Generally I think we have been getting on well and doing more together.

Yes Lisa-it's been pretty hot and sweaty down here too and H hates the heat so I have to laugh when I read your post and acknowledge the truth in it!

We are going out for a meal tonight-I will get a better feel for things-this may be just a bump.i will look for other red flags, 3isacrowd and not rush into accusations.

Thanks,
Deluded

I would say, "I know you said you didn't contact OW, and I don't want to annoy you with this, but this feeling that you are lying keeps bugging me. Perhaps it's my problem. How can we work with that together?"

I suspect he is lying to you, but snooping is an awful place to be. A comment like this will put him on guard that you are alert and your alarms are going off. Also, since you are owning it as YOUR problem (even if it's not), he perhaps won't get defensive.

If he hasn't fallen into the hole enough, that may convince him to regain NC.

My new motto, living with a WS, is "trust but verify...." I verify everything. I have spy software on my DH's computer and when I get a funny feeling, I go turn it on. This way, I know without asking him, that he is being truthful. You can't count on a WS to bust himself, you need to independently verify his truthfulness in order to PROTECT YOURSELF.

I have learned 2 things from this experience: never ever blindly trust anyone and ALWAYS TRUST MY INSTINCTS! Never ever will I ignore my instincts again! I learned that lesson the hard way and I might be a slow learner, but I don't make the same mistake twice.

Another point that I would like to make is that I think it is a lovebuster to accuse, or "question," someone about infidelity without evidence. They will be insulted if they are innocent or they will be FOREWARNED if it is true and, OF COURSE, they will lie about it. People in an affair are committed to a pattern of deceit and aren't likely to answer the question honestly anyway. It is just a waste of time that puts the WS in a position to LIE to you if true. Very few people are going to bust themselves.

Instead, I suggest finding out on your own what is going on through snooping. That way, you can either rule it out or you can present EVIDENCE that prevents an evasive reaction. I don't believe in asking a spouse if they are having an affair. Don't ask if you don't already know, lest it just causes trouble.

<small>[ August 12, 2003, 02:56 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Thanks AMM and Melodylane.

Well , I did go fishing.....but didn't catch anything. In fact I stewed about it all day yesterday and eventually went in to H's office-he had just left but he had left his email on so I just accessed it. Nothing in his inbox, sent box, deleted or address book.Well there was her old contact details but she has changed jobs, home address and phone number since.I think that's an oversight-he's not good at deleting old entries.

After, I left a message , just a friendly one to say I was sorry I'd missed him. Later that evening he asked me if I had checked his mail. He was very relaxed about it-I said I had but pointed out that he had told me I was welcome to come and check it whenever I like. He was very relaxed and when I said that I had been very on edge yesterday and felt I had to check it, he asked if I felt ok now. And then proceeded to praise me for cleaning out the freezer. In fact I had come home still feeling twitchy so had cleaned the freezer and popped a bottle of champagne in the empty freezer drawer on a whim. I showed H earlier and when we had the above conversation he said so is that why the champagne and laughed.
In fact I have started my summer holiday yesterday so that was MY reason to myself!

Now call me neurotic but there are two possibilities here-one is that my instinct was wrong, just an echo of before, as 3iscrowd suggested.
The other is that H was relaxed about things because he has set up another email account and he and OW use that. Now if that is the case he only uses it at work as he is almost never on the computer at home and doesn't connect his laptop to the internet either. I forgot to check the drop down bar to see if he had been to a wab based ISP. But will do that soon.And of course,I have been monitoring his mobile phone as much as I can tho the bills go to work admin not to him-but he keeps it off most of the time at work and it is always either left in a drawer or in his car at home and when we go out. He never takes it with hm now unless he is on call.But he could have another I suppose but I am vigilant and canot see that he would have time to sneak awayand use it. He also has not spent any nights away without me for ages. The last time was 2 months ago and he phoned me! which he had stopped doing!He was in Washington and could not have had time to meet OW as it was a 48 hr turn around London-Washington-London trip.

No, the more I think about this the less I am convinced that I have anything real to base my suspicions on.

Does anyone think differently?

Best of all, H wants to take me skiing to the USA in December.His idea-my 40th birthday! We want somewhere not TOO cold, and with a good ski school for me(complete beginner) but H has been last year and was quite good as he felt he had to keep up with his colleagues. Any ideas anyone?He's talking somwhere in Colorado currently.

Thanks for the support everyone-yesterday was a bad day for me and once again, MB brought some order to my anxious jittery brain!

Deluded

Deluded, if you want my opinion, I would do something to clear him once and for all and give you peace of mind. I mean REAL peace of mind. Its really not fair to him - and hell on you - to keep wondering. I know the living hell that is and it can't be fun for him either if he's innocent.

Now you know if he is contacting the OW and has given you permission to check his computer that he is going to eliminate the evidence. He surely is not stupid enough to leave evidence around. He could have easily erased any emails as most WS' would do. Or they would just go to yahoo.com and set up an email account. Very easy to do.

If it were me, I would DL some spy software to your home computer and install it on his work computer. [it takes all of 3 minutes] I wouldn't tell him you are doing this, because that just defeats the purpose.

That way you will know FOR SURE that he is innocent and you can relax and quit accusing him. You can get on with your life! Doing this made ALL THE DIFFERENCE in my marriage. I have a great marriage now becasue I KNOW, from independent verification, that my H is truthful to me and has truly changed. Before, I just wondered in agony all the time. My wondering caused great tension in my marriage and I see the same thing happening to you.

The one that I really like is Starr spyware. http://www.iopus.com/ I use the home version, but if you want reports emailed to you, buy the PRO version. And I would suggest buying it rather than using the trial version because the trial version will show a banner upon restart. You would want to DL it to your computer and copy it to a disk that you could insert on his computer.

When you pay for it, they will give you a serial # that you type in upon installation. Also, it is VERY IMPORTANT that when you install it, you select "invisible installation" and select that the banner not be visible. Another tip is to password protect it AND increase the amount of kbs of the report, otherwise it will get so big and then erase the old report. I changed mine to 30000kbs. I should also add that I have long since turned OFF the spyware on my H's computer because he has been, verifiably, trustworthy for a long time.

<small>[ August 14, 2003, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

I'm also one who believes in the "Trust but verify".
I would always be snooping quite subtlely.
Doesn't have to be open and accusatory!
Go snoop! I will always do so from now on no matter how well everything seems to be. Because the initial trust was betrayed and I have no reason to trust 100% ever again. It's not a in your face type of thing as in LBing, But an attitude I've developed for my well being.
If I'd been snoopy long before, there would have been no A to begin with in the physical sense, Because once the lies were exposed, he would have backed down on flying to see her.He was ok with it as long as it was hidden, and he could say he was going for other reasons, but not once in his face. He would have known then it was divorce if he did.
LouLou

Deluded, As I said, snooping is an icky place to be. However, if I had snooped more, my H would not have relapsed into his A. So the others may have better instincts than I do. I just hate snooping...but I suppose everyone does.

Melodylane,AMM and LouLou-Thanks!

Melodylane-can you tell me any more about this spyware stuff? Is your H's work computer his own or his company's? And what does DL mean? Duh, download I suppose! I live in the UK you see. My H's computer is not his and belongs to the National Health service-having said that, presumably it would really be undetectable ? Also, does your H know about it now? I assume not so you always have it as a backup?

I understand exactly what you are sayin and have been wondering about getting a bugging device for his phone too.

Thanks again.

Deluded

<small>[ August 14, 2003, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: Deluded ]</small>

Deluded, I have it on his home computer, but I would put it on his work laptop if I thought I needed to. I don't KNOW if his company would have any way to detect it. Also, my DH is a software engineer and computer whiz and has never detected it.

Yes, DL means download, and no, I have never told him about it. It is my ace in the hole. My safety net. I may never need it again, but if I do it will be there!

You will know you are at a new level of your personal recovery when you trust yourself enough NOT to snoop.

The "trust" after an affair is different. You trust yourself that you will not shrivel up and die if this A or a different A has begun.

You trust yourself that you are holding up your end of the R ... employing the tools you've learned at MB and elsewhere. And thusly, if there is another A .... it is entirely due to the character defects of your partner that need remedy, not yourself.

When you (gradually) ease into this level of recovery, you watch and listen .... but you don't snoop. You trust your new ability to feel the true pulse of the relationship .... and you trust yourself to speak up and express those concerns that may arise .... which are expressed with different intention and tone than accusations.

I have expressed to Mr. Pepper very recently, I have concerns about his relationship with (female co-worker). We discussed the situation. We POJA'd a solution. No drama. No snooping.

If he is lying ... that is HIS problem. If he's lying, he's lost his integrity , which is again, HIS problem. I highly doubt he is lying because I trust myself now .... a near impossible task in early years of recovery.

I trust my integrity, my instincts, my ability to survive and thrive no matter what.

If someone wants to cheat , they will do so .... they cheat themself ultimately. They cheat their character and sabotage their integrity.

I will not be cheating myself. I will be trusting myself. I don't need to snoop to relieve any of my anxieties. I trust myself to be strong enough to leave a dangerous or an unhealthy relationship. I trust myself to recognize that situation, should it arise.

THIS is what recovery looks like 7 years later. We have both found our voice to speak openly.

You'll see .... sometime in the future ... this snooping issue will simply be moot.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Thanks Pepperband and Melodylane.

Melodylane, I will hold off on the software for now because I am pretty sure that if I installed it and it was detected I would be out of a job because I am subject to fairly strict professional standards. And I don't want to lose my job, my income as well as my H! Anyway, I have a PI contact on standby should I need him.

But I have decided to hold off for now. The instincts are settling. Pepperband, I understand what you are saying and in fact I have been able to say much the same things to myself. On occasion when thoughts of "whatis he doing right now,is he in contact with OW" have popped into my head I can say that if he is still in contact thane more fool him, and I will find out eventually anyway. I feel generally calm and settled and feel that I can and could deal with it. And I still feel like that! I had a momentary wobble on Wed but feel strong and capable again. As I said to my IC- feel like I am on an exciting journey of self discovery and personal development and if my H wants to tag along-GREAT! But if he gets lost somewhere along the way then so be it. That's NOT to say that I am neglecting our relationship-far fom it, it is generally flourishing. And I am looking after him better not to MAKE him love me (I can't!)-but because I want to do things for him because I love him and our children. The same with our home-I am proactively improving it as well(I found a link to flylady.com one day in somebody's thread and have found some great ideas there!)
At the same time I am flourishing at work, and have started to find time and prioritise time for ME-exercise time, guilt free shopping time, and fun time!
In fact I can look back and see that I had become quite a one dimensional person for a while there.

But not any more-and whilst there is a way to go, I hope in time to be even more tranquil and self trusting.

I still wonder what set my nerves jangling.Maybe he did contact her to tell her his Triathlon time. But if he did, I think he knew it was wrong and feels bad about it. So I am going to let it go and enjoy our family holiday.

Thanks MBers-it is so good to be able to vent like this. Thank you all so much!
Deluded <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I've heard you can install spyware remotely, say from your home conputer for another one elsewhere. Of course, you have to know the id and password of other computer to do so.
I don't know how this is done, just that it can be done.
As for trusting enough to quit snooping in future, wish I'd been smart enough to have snooped long before I did. So I'll just keep doing so when I feel like it, and NO, I don't feel badly about it!Nor do I feel I have to reveal I search!
Why should I feel badly about protecting myself. It's basic instinct of survival and I prefer knowing long before it would be a full blown A again!
H and OW didn't have any qualms about deceiving me, so why should I? Am I deceiving H? I don't think so in the sense of damage such as they did to me. I'm protecting his sensibilities by not letting him know I still don't trust 100%. If they can do it once, twice, they can sure do it again. I've had all the promises, vows, repentance, remorsefulness, you name it, Yet it occurred again 23 yrs later.
I don't for a second fool myself into believing it can't happen again!And my health will be a lot better for it not having to deal with total shock again!
No matter how many vows and promises I hear.
So there! LOL LouLou
LouLou

My thought on this is if you let the FWH know you are snooping, but don't let them know exactly how...it becomes a deterrent to any sneaky behavior. You can be honest with him, without giving specific details and it will be a reminder to him he won't be able to get away with it as easily if there is a next time...

You can praise him for the lack of contact, and let him know as time goes on you feel better and better about the situation. Explain you need this to be able to trust him again. (I think he already knows). You will snoop less as time goes on, but will check in every now and again to see if something is up, and everytime you find nothing, your heart will lighten a little more.

If it's a home computer I would install it

If it's a work one I wouldn't

So if u are interested let me know and I can help

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by StillHereMakingIt:
<strong>My thought on this is if you let the FWH know you are snooping, but don't let them know exactly how...it becomes a deterrent to any sneaky behavior. .</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have found that it usually just makes the WS who is committed to adultery more careful if they know they are being watched. They just cover their tracks better and the BS is still left "wondering" and with no protection whatsoever. When the WS doesn't know he is being watched, that is when the TRUTH comes out.

Just being watched won't make someone quit, but rather, a change of heart.

I don't know why some people have a problem with snooping when its done for a good purpose. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it when its done appropriately. And it is certainly appropriate and necessary when applied to an untrustworthy spouse in order to protect the BS.

There is no virtue in sitting by idly while someone destroys your life. There is no virtue in extending trust to an untrustworthy person. Nor will the extension of undeserved trust, make that person trustworthy.

<small>[ August 15, 2003, 07:52 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>