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Joined: Jul 2003
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Today, my H and I were getting along very well. He has been talking about my S and I coming home soon. He even began cleaning up the main floor bedroom that I had previously used as my computer room, so that we could put my S in there instead of the basement bedroom. We bought paint, and new blinds for the windows. Then I saw it. The picture of him, the OW, and her D all sitting nicely on a love seat smiling for the camera. He put it in a frame I had bought, over the picture of our god son who died 6 years ago at age 13. I lost it. I took it to him and said "Ooooo, what a pretty picture of the new happy family! You never had your picture taken with us!" Well, that just sent him into a gigantic rage. He started yelling and screaming at me. All the while the OW's D was there. I screamed back, told him I didn't want him back anymore, that he was lying to me telling me he was gonna have us come home, that he was just using me, and that he doesn't love me like he says he does or he'd have us home already. He replied with "I ain't having you come back home now, get the papers (I am so sick of hearing that! If he wants the divorce, he can file!) He says she's nice to him, not like me always nagging and starting fights with him. I said give it time, she'll do something you don't like and you'll treat her like you treat me. I said we didn't fight the first couple months we were together either. You don't really know each other yet. But she'll figure you out, and she has already said she's getting sick of you (her cousin told my nephew she said that cuz she is a bar fly and my H is a home body and never wants to go out like she does.)

Anyway, I left, after 4 attempts, and he wouldn't let me leave. But when I got home the phone calls began and finally, I came on here and read a few posts. I calmed down, and after about a half hour I called him to tell him I was sorry for yelling, but that it just hurt to see that picture. He said he could understand that and that he was sorry too. We ended the conversation with him telling me he loves me.

Most of our marriage has been like this. We have screaming matches because we both get so heated and we both are so strong minded that we can't see the other's point of view. Then we calm down, and things are fine again. I can't blame it all on him, I start a lot of the arguments. But the bottom line is that I love him with all of my heart. And I can't bear to lose him. I know he loves me too, and I don't think he wants to lose me either. It's like he said, she is giving him the EN's he wants right now. Affection, sexual fulfillment, conversation, and recreational companionship. I give him financial support, domestic support, family commitment, and physical attractiveness. And was also giving him sexual fulfillment up until this weekend. But what really bites is that if he would only let me, I can fulfill the EN's she's giving him too. I just can't do it in a few short minutes or hours. And the other thing is, the only thing we fight about is her. It's like I can't even remember why I left him in the first place. It wasn't because of her. It was because EN's weren't being met. We were emotionally separated before I left. I wish I could just have a whole day with him to myself and show him everything I've printed out from this website. I wish I could get him to read this stuff. I think it would make as much sense to him as it does to me.

I've also said that he needs anger management. I think maybe I should go too. My anger gets the best of me too often also.

Ok, this was a lot longer than I thought it was going to be. I guess I just needed to vent again.

<small>[ August 12, 2003, 09:30 PM: Message edited by: deeplyhurting ]</small>

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DH,

The pattern of abuse has to stop. If your H can't do it in time before damage is done, then you need to learn to do so. Do you know how?

You can help yourself and him if you step back. Don't talk to him when he is angry. Just pull back and say 'hm.... need to talk to you but the ears are shut, let me know when they open up so we can communicate.' A bit sarcastic so you can soften it up a bit, ok? LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

L.

<small>[ August 12, 2003, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

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Orchid~
No, I don't know how to stop the pattern of abuse. It has gone on like this for years, and I can't keep my mouth shut. I just fly off the handle and that is usually what sends him into a screaming fit. He has more than once told me that I act like a man when I yell at him. He has also told me he hates me when I get that way. He gets in my face, I get in his. I admit I hate him too when he starts yelling, because most of the time he calls names and belittles me and calls me ugly when I am mad.

I have a IC meeting tomorrow. Maybe she can help me work out a way to control my anger. I have to do something, because I am driving him further and further away when I act like I did today. And that is the last thing I want to do. I just can't control the jealousy that rages inside me when I see or hear things about them.

He threw the picture out the front door and I took the picture and tore it in half and kept it. It amazes me what he sees in her. He has told me that I am the most beautiful woman he's ever met, that she is not all that pretty (and she isn't) but she's nice to him. That's what he likes about her. Why can't he see that we need counseling together? I've told him that we need to learn how to communicate with each other, that all we know how to do is argue. Why can't he see that if we can change that, then he will have in me what he's getting from her. Why am I not worth him fighting for? That's what breaks my heart. I am so willing, so very desperate to make things right, to make things work, to do whatever it takes to right our wrongs. Why isn't he willing to do that too?

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No, I don't know how to stop the pattern of abuse

Yes you do know...stop your participation in it..do not make this harder than it is in theory...in theory you stop a pattern by not doing the part that is your negative behavior...
you don't need a therapist to tell you that part...

and I can't keep my mouth shut. that made me smile...you can keep your mouth shut...
you must keep your mouth shut..
you must learn to keep your mouth shut...

Easy No...not easy BUT not impossible...and each time...each and every time you DO keep your mouth shut from this moment on in your life...you will gain strength..

find strength and power and build on that......

It will serve you better to let go thoughts and expectations of what he should do and focus solely on you....
He has given you loads of feedback about what he wants...and each time you yell and fight with out of control anger...you are sending the message of I choose not to meet this needs...

Imagine the power you will gain...and the attention you will recieve from him if you change..

he expects you to scream and rage...and you deliver time and time again...then he reacts the same the two of you are off and running...down the same old street...

want to make him notice you...stop your participation...

deeplyhurting part of this is your own choice that YOU are not going to live a moment longer in a life of yelling screaming and chaos...that YOU have had enough...and a therapist or anyone else can't make you...you must do so...

There are many ways to express hurt and anger besides raging...and you yourself admit your current choice of expression doesn't work..

You my friend are at the exact right moment to change this....

But the bottom line is that I love him with all of my heart. And I can't bear to lose him.
stop pushing him away...

I just can't control the jealousy that rages inside me when I see or hear things about them.
If you really really can't control them...then you must stop seeing him until you can...also where are you in boundary setting with him NOT having contact with OW....why are you allowing cake-eating in your life...and in your face??

I will tell when first married..i could rage and scream and call my husband names like there was no tomorrow...

And you know what..all our arguements then became focused on "how" we argued...we would go back and re-hash the names and hurtful things we said..often to the point of forgetting what it was we were really fighting about...

neither could hear a word the other say...everything became attack and counter attack...thrust and counter thrust...It was cruel, childish, and unproductive in the worst sense...

And one day I decided without annoucing a thing..that I for one was not going to call him a names...

and it took a while...and lord it was hard not to call him a [censored]!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

But I stopped..and then he stopped...and now name calling and yelling is rare...even when furious at eachother....because we learned differently...

blessings to you deeply,,
ARK

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DH,

Did you and your son move out of your home? Why? Who is paying the bills on the home he lives in? And what is the OW daughter doing in your home?

I agree with the others, that it won't ever stop until you quit participating in it. As you said, this has gone on for years, so its unlikely to change on its own. Especially when you are facilitating the affair and paying his bills. This could go on forever at this rate!

What man in his right mind would give up TWO WOMEN with one of them even supporting him? He would be crazy to give up his harem along with a willing Sugar Momma. This is good enough for Jerry Springer!

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I agree with Melody...Plan B NOW!

He is getting his needs met by two women. How the heck is he going to willingly give one of those up? What would be his motivation. OW isnt going to stop fulfilling the needs she does.

Your husband says he loves you, and I think that is true. But he is in an addiction and you are enabling it.

Write your Plan B letter in love, post it here so everyone can help you with it...then send it and go dark. No ENs met by you. Time for that man to go into withdrawal.

You may find that is all it will take to blow the Fog away.

In His arms.

<small>[ August 13, 2003, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

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Some couples develop a relationship culture of bickering and fighting .... because of the adrenaline high it provides. They feel more "alive" during a fight, and then they have the excitement of a make up and kiss session.

Then the R slugs dully along until one or both of them crave another "high" and the fight-bell is rung.

Repeat-recycle at will.

It only works if both parties play.

If you don't engage your anger, you might miss the adrenaline rush .... when the cost of this is too high for you in terms of exhaustion and burn out, you'll quit. Then WH will HAVE TO play this game with someone else ..... OW perhaps? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Just some thoughts.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>Some couples develop a relationship culture of bickering and fighting .... because of the adrenaline high it provides. They feel more "alive" during a fight, and then they have the excitement of a make up and kiss session.

:</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Kat97's excellent post last week, prompted me to print out the following segment and study the concept. Not just for understanding LB's in marriage, but broad based relationship advice.

deeplyhurting, if it helps, go back to IP aka Blue Eyes mega-post on verbal abuse and reactions that help and hurt. Very good advice given.
(I'd copy the link but my cut and paste skills seem to be limited to Elmer's and safety sissors!)

Kat said:
You probably know that I’ve gotten a lot out of studying the concepts of the “Inner Child” and Transactional Analysis. You’re getting a lot of excellent advice here, but you’re having a hard time “hearing” it because it’s all being filtered through your Parent ego state, which is all about judgments and criticism. As a type 8, you’re probably “in” Parent state much of the time. Part of being an 8 is the need to constantly fight and go upstream against the current.

To get the benefit of the advise you’re being given here, you’re going to have to consciously “click off” your judgmental Parent and hurt Child, and operate in logical Adult. You’re a scientist—access that part of your brain that dissects information and filters fact from opinion.

No one is judging or blaming you. They are observing the behavior and events you put down here, and making suggestions based on those observations, cause/effect. etc.
I copied the following information from www.boyceco.com and the TA Lesson on “Psychological Games”:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The key characteristics of a psychological game are:
1) there is a sequence of transactions that take place as a group
2) the group has happened before, usually several or many times
3) the Adult ego state is not involved ie. you do the sequence not in awareness
4) the players end up with their racket feelings
5) the transactions are ulterior and become revealed at a moment called the switch when players change roles

One way to look at games is by using a model called the Drama Triangle. Developed and introduced to the TA world by Stephen Karpman in 1968, it's a useful method of looking at many games. The triangle consists of three positions: Persecutor, Rescuer, and Victim. They are capitalized to distinguish them from real victims, villains, and rescuers. You can picture this triangle by placing the figure upside down so it's resting on a point. This is the one-down position of Victim. Persecutor is the top left point, Rescuer is the top right point. The game begins with one player taking a position and offering an invitation to at least one other person. If that person accepts the invitation, he or she steps onto the triangle and the transaction sequence continues.

The psychological purpose of games is:
(a) Lots of predictable intense strokes are exchanged. Long time married couples often get into the 'habit' of bickering back and forth. It's a game. Relatively safe, predictable strokes.
(b) A game is a proven way to structure time. It is more intense than activities but not as risky as intimacy.
(c) Illusion of Intimacy. Some people confuse games with intimacy because games have such intense strokes. Some couples play a game first (the same old argument) then follow it up with intimacy.
(d) Reinforce our script beliefs and frame of reference. In other words we prove something to be true: "Everyone is selfish", "All men are the same", "You can't count on family", "Nobody ever listens to me".
(e) Confirm our life position (see previous lesson) on the OK corral, ie. I'm not OK, You are OK.
(f) Further our script towards its destiny

Typical Games: Kick Me
White opens this game with a series of discounts [insults] (or worse) to Black. After a while, Black has had enough abuse and wallops White, who at a Child level wanted a reaction. Common these days in domestic disputes where one spouse verbally assaults the other, provoking a physical response. Persecutor toVictim.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Think objectively for a minute about your personality, and about your H’s. You need to be in control. To be sure you’re in control, you need to exert that control periodically. Is it possible that out of awareness you are provoking some situations, some of the time?

Transactional analysis also talks about your “racket feeling.” EVERYONE has a racket feeling, which is a feeling that they’ve discovered, when they display it, they always get “strokes” (attention). For some it’s guilt, for others anger, etc. etc. They unconsciously “set up” situations that will trigger their racket feeling. You probably know that I’ve gotten a lot out of studying the concepts of the “Inner Child” and Transactional Analysis. You’re getting a lot of excellent advice here, but you’re having a hard time “hearing” it because it’s all being filtered through your Parent ego state, which is all about judgments and criticism. As a type 8, you’re probably “in” Parent state much of the time. Part of being an 8 is the need to constantly fight and go upstream against the current.

To get the benefit of the advise you’re being given here, you’re going to have to consciously “click off” your judgmental Parent and hurt Child, and operate in logical Adult. You’re a scientist—access that part of your brain that dissects information and filters fact from opinion.

No one is judging or blaming you. They are observing the behavior and events you put down here, and making suggestions based on those observations, cause/effect. etc.
I copied the following information from www.boyceco.com and the TA Lesson on “Psychological Games”:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The key characteristics of a psychological game are:
1) there is a sequence of transactions that take place as a group
2) the group has happened before, usually several or many times
3) the Adult ego state is not involved ie. you do the sequence not in awareness
4) the players end up with their racket feelings
5) the transactions are ulterior and become revealed at a moment called the switch when players change roles

One way to look at games is by using a model called the Drama Triangle. Developed and introduced to the TA world by Stephen Karpman in 1968, it's a useful method of looking at many games. The triangle consists of three positions: Persecutor, Rescuer, and Victim. They are capitalized to distinguish them from real victims, villains, and rescuers. You can picture this triangle by placing the figure upside down so it's resting on a point. This is the one-down position of Victim. Persecutor is the top left point, Rescuer is the top right point. The game begins with one player taking a position and offering an invitation to at least one other person. If that person accepts the invitation, he or she steps onto the triangle and the transaction sequence continues.

The psychological purpose of games is:
(a) Lots of predictable intense strokes are exchanged. Long time married couples often get into the 'habit' of bickering back and forth. It's a game. Relatively safe, predictable strokes.
(b) A game is a proven way to structure time. It is more intense than activities but not as risky as intimacy.
(c) Illusion of Intimacy. Some people confuse games with intimacy because games have such intense strokes. Some couples play a game first (the same old argument) then follow it up with intimacy.
(d) Reinforce our script beliefs and frame of reference. In other words we prove something to be true: "Everyone is selfish", "All men are the same", "You can't count on family", "Nobody ever listens to me".
(e) Confirm our life position (see previous lesson) on the OK corral, ie. I'm not OK, You are OK.
(f) Further our script towards its destiny

Typical Games: Kick Me
White opens this game with a series of discounts [insults] (or worse) to Black. After a while, Black has had enough abuse and wallops White, who at a Child level wanted a reaction. Common these days in domestic disputes where one spouse verbally assaults the other, provoking a physical response. Persecutor toVictim.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Think objectively for a minute about your personality, and about your H’s. You need to be in control. To be sure you’re in control, you need to exert that control periodically. Is it possible that out of awareness you are provoking some situations, some of the time?

Transactional analysis also talks about your “racket feeling.” EVERYONE has a racket feeling, which is a feeling that they’ve discovered, when they display it, they always get “strokes” (attention). For some it’s guilt, for others anger, etc. etc. They unconsciously “set up” situations that will trigger their racket feeling.

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DH,
First of all, the photo is not really what you were mad about. Sure, it didn't help, but you are angry about this woman living with and sleeping with your husband. A fully clothed photo is nothing compared to that, and I think you know it. The photo was a focus for your anger, representative of all that is wrong.

Simply, you used it to pick a fight. I've told that your Plan A can include respectful honesty about true things. Try to remember, however, to use "I" messages. If your H has never taken a photo with you and your son, you could have said, "I wish I had one of these with us." It isn't accusing, but conveys the same message as "You never...."

You have some "I can't" statements in your post, you can't stop lovebusting, you can't stop your mouth. Then you say, "why can't he____?"

It's somewhat the same. You choose not to control your impulses, actions words. He also chooses either not to control them or to choose badly.

You can't fix him (there's "can't" again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ).

But, you can fix you, you can control you.
You can choose your battles.
You can choose not to battle or confront.
You can choose your words to try to initiate dialogue instead of beginning with accusation.

You're a Christian so you can pray a quick "Help me Jesus."
You can bite your tongue (not too hard, you get grooves, trust me)
I used to put 2 fingers to my lips--to literally hold in the negative words.
The ole count to 10.

Just take a moment to choose your words wisely, to think of that "I" statement. And sometimes in that moment you take to think, you'll hear something from your spouse that you didn't quite expect.

You have reason to be sad, to bemoan your losses and things you never had that she seems to be getting. There is a real process of grief that almost all BSs go through. Sadness is one stage, anger is another and sometimes you flow from one to another and back rather quickly. So try to be aware of which emotional state you are in when you are in communication with your H. And rather than sinking into a fight or tears, leaving the area, hanging up the phone call are better choices.

One thing I realized with anger, and I had some doozy times of lovebusting, is that it helps you feel not so powerless in the face of a situation that the WS controls. But it isn't positive power, it drains the WS's lovebank. He sees you as a shrew and the OW looks "nicer". Ugh, right? No matter how pretty you are...ugly actions make ugliness.

Haven't you ever been around someone who isn't so attractive, but they are kind, thoughtful, compassionate...and soon when you see them, you see loveliness, you physically see the beauty of the spirit?

That's what you are aiming for becoming. And, it is of benefit to you, even if your H continues on his wretched path.

And, whether you are in Plan A or B.

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Wow! Thank you all so much!

First, for those who don't know, I moved out with my S. Second, the OW and her youngest D stay every night at my H's house. But they haven't "technically" moved in. That's why her D was there. She stays with my H while the OW is at work and he is off. (My H works 3 12hr days/week.)

I actually had a better day today. We went to Menards together to buy a window for his house. (I didn't buy it, but bought paint to repaint my son's headboard for his bed, he bought the window.) When I got to his house, he and the OW were just pulling up to the house. She actually knew that we were going to the store together! She immediately left, without so much as making eye contact with me. Anyway, I didn't say anything about her except to ask why she thought I was there. He said he told her we had plans to go there together. Well, when we got back I helped him put the window in, and he was getting frustrated with it. He turned around and said "I'm not in a very good mood, and I don't need your help anymore, so I think you should leave." He kissed me and told me he loved me. I left. When I got home I was starting to paint the headboard, and he called. He said he was calling to tell me he wasn't trying to be a jerk, he just didn't want his mood to spoil the good time we had. I said I understood. I said I just want to make you happy and I don't do that for you anymore. He said "yes, you do, sometimes." Then he told me he loved me again. I said it back, and we hung up. I guess a few little baby steps forward, are better than none. And I view him asking me nicely to leave, and his phone call to reassure me as baby steps.

I am not sure I want to do plan B yet. I am just not emotionally ready to do that. But you are right, I do need to set boundaries. And you are all right about changing me first. I know this, and yet I still allow myself to argue and yell right back. I will work on this more diligently. Because as some one posted, fighting is ugly, and niceness is beauty. So, I will have to show him that I am beautiful inside and out. I will keep my mouth shut <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> And I will not be buying anything else for his house until it is my house again, nor will I pay any of his bills.

Again, thank you, thank you all!!!!


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