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Hi, I've posted in a few places before, but star*fish suggested I get an opinion over here.
I've been married for twelve years. To my knowledge this is his second affair. The first one was three years ago. It was a horrible ordeal. He fell madly in love with a woman and it took over a year to get her out of our lives. He went back and forth, mourned, could not end contact... With MC, we were able to repair our marriage and create what I thought (and he agrees) was an INCREDIBLE marriage. We renewed our vows on our 10th anniversary.
He is having another affair and he is in love with this woman. But he says he loves me and can when he looks into his future, it is me that he sees. He just can't give her up now. He "cannot make promises he doesn't know he can keep." We tried Plan A but he didn't cut contact. I could not be patient with that. Understand that after a YEAR of suffering, I can't take it any more. I won't go back there.
We moved to Plan B. He has voiced the need to "go to" the OW to let that relationship run its course. I had hoped he would use the time apart to work on himself and end it with her. I do not believe that is the case.
I am a wreck. I am starting to resent him because here he is living the life of Ryan while I am here with every reminder of him. I grieve for him and the life we had together.
At the same time, I realize that I was living a lie. He was not the man I had thought he was. He has been called a narcissist. I am really believing that now. He insists that he has a problem and is in IC. He shows remorse. He realizes he needs to work on himself. Yet, all this hard work is taking place as he goes to her? What are your thoughts on this?
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Susan, I'm not Mortarman but I hope I can lend my support in some small way.
Your story breaks my heart as I see that you've already been down this road before as far as infidelity is concerned.
Melodylane is very wise, and on another post here she talked about someone having an affair as a 'lifestyle' vs someone who does it and it's an aberration of their character--i.e. a one time deal. Not to be harsh, but it sounds like in your case it's your husband's way of life. Only you can know if you're willing to accept it, or move on and be on your own in life.
I cheated in my marriage, and now I'm divorced due to it. I didn't see the true damage of the cheating until things hit 'rock bottom' in my life. I didn't like seeing my family torn apart, and I still loved my now former husband. The affair for me was a complete departure from my usual way in life, like it wasn't me. I plan on waiting for my exH for as long as it takes for him to see me for the person I once was in his eyes--a person of integrity.
I don't think your husband, on the other hand, has felt the consequences of his actions. I get the feeling he simply doesn't care how you feel. Since you've already gone through this before with him, it's extra heartbreaking that he didn't learn the first time of the pain and anguish he caused.
If I were in your shoes, I'd withdraw from him completely and make plans to proceed with life without him. That might make him 'snap out of it', and make a true turn around in his behavior.
You said, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He has voiced the need to "go to" the OW to let that relationship run its course.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Where do your needs come in? Maybe he'll discover that after his relationship has 'run its course', you'll be over him and not interested in a reconciliation.
I feel it's time for Plan B, indeed.
H_P
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But he says he loves me and can when he looks into his future, it is me that he sees. He just can't give her up now. He "cannot make promises he doesn't know he can keep." You say you are in Plan B but you are still in contact? Plan A & Plan B are for the betrayed spouse to do. They are not something the bs “participates” in.
Read the links below.
If you have not started Plan B you SHOULD call marriage builders and get an appointment BEFORE you start Plan B. (See number below)
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Chris, We have just started Plan B. There were a couple of logistical things leftover to do. I am already not handling it at all.
Hopeful, I so agree with what you are saying. I could never remain in a marriage where this is a pattern. He is in IC and clearly has stated wanting to work on himself.
What I can't understand is that DRAW to her. Why is it that he "can't" cut contact? Can anyone explain this to me?
I think this is hopeless. I am worse now then ever before.
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We have just started Plan B. Again, it's not something "we" (as a couple) do. It is something YOU do as a betrayed spouse.
I am already not handling it at all. It's not easy. Just tae it one thing at a time. If in doubt, DO NOTHING!
What I can't understand is that DRAW to her. Why is it that he "can't" cut contact? Simply because it feels so good/right. This is the reason to wait before divorcing. Almost always the ws wakes up" and sees that it isn't as good as it seems.
This way, if the ws seeks reconciliation, you have the option to try or not, rather than jump ship and regret it later. (yes, it happens)
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understand your agony, I too have gone through an affair 3 years ago, thought we were in recovery, but found renewed contact with same OW this year. I agree with you that this time it is much worse. My H did say that our marriage the last 3 years were great, yet, he again tried to destroy it with renewed contact.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ] What I can't understand is that DRAW to her. Why is it that he "can't" cut contact? Can anyone explain this to me?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I asked the same question. Some have advised it is an addiction, very much like to drugs and alcohol. The OW is a drug, he cannot stay away. I believe it is very much how you feel right now in Plan B, you know it is the best plan for you right now, but you miss him so much, and you are agonizing over the no contact rule. You jeopardize your own personal recovery everytime you initiate contact with you errant H. Your H is going through the same struggle with his feelings about the OW. It is very difficult for us BS to understand that our spouses can feel so strongly for someone else, someone other than us.
Plan B done correctly will help you, not just to get him back but to really focus on what you want. You have to decide if this is worth this second round of pain. You have to decide whether you want him back, not to let him make the choices this time.
When I discovered renewed contact again in March, I was in control of my life. My choices were simple; either he ends contact or we get divorced. I was not doing a Plan A-that was out of the question. I did not agonize over their affair, per se, or the details of it. I agonized over the decision I had to make, stay with a known betrayer, give it one more try, leaving myself open to more pain in the future, or end the marriage.
You have choices to make. You have to be calm and focused. Do not get distracted by his feelings for her, focus on your life, what you can live with. You know how fickle you H’s heart is, he got over that affair three years ago. From what you wrote, the first OW was the love of his life, the tie to her was powerful. Yet, here you are again with another OW. I am sure his feelings, at this time, are just as powerful. However, it is not forever.
I will never understand the WHY of it, but I can and do continue to make the best choices for myself and my family, which includes my errant H. IF YOU DECIDE YOU WANT HIM BACK, and do not misunderstand my emphasis on capital letters, then you decide what terms. This time it is about your choices, not his. The OW is not the core problem here, the problems lie within your H.
Be strong, and implement a strong Plan B. Reread what Plan B means. Try to get coaching from Steve Harley or Cerri.
Good luck to you.
NOMO
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Susan,
As you may know, cerri's internet is down....and I promised you that I'd talk to her about you, so she called me up on the phone. I told her as much information as I had, but she asked a few more questions.
She asked about the ages of your kids, and if any of them are from this marriage. She wanted to know how you and your husband met. She asked if you are a new poster, or just have not been in here in a long time and got a new number.
Anyway, with the information I could provide here's what she had to say. She believes that since your marriage was good when this happened that they may point to a failed "recovery plan" as opposed to a failed relationship. What were the extraordinary steps that the two of you took to prevent this from happening again. How open and honest were things? Was there an "accountabitlity" plan where you could check all of his whereabouts, phone bills, emails etc.
Because her suspicion is that without extraordinary measures being taken, your husband is prey to his weaknesses and your marriage is vulnerable. She thinks that this new Plan B would serve to correct that and put a strong recovery plan in place if he comes back. She believes that while you may not be able to be a better wife....you can be a smarter one, in the sense that you recognize that your H has a vulnerable personality. She'd like you to give this a chance to work for you before considering divorce, and doesn't feel this is a lost cause.
She and I both had partners with mulitiples and this same kind of weakness...we are both happily married and in recovery. But the conditions that both of us insisted upon are very much still in place (may have to be forever really) and will need to met if you consider taking this man back. Breaking this kind of pattern requires strict measures for protecting the marriage. Do you think they may have been where your original recovery plan fell short?
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First, star*fish, thanks for chatting with Cerri.
We have one child together, age 11. Our others are 14,18,21,22,23. Yes, there are six. We met at a kid's function in 1990.
When we dealt with the first A, we dealt with my H's emotional needs extensively, but in the context of the relationship. I made him a bigger priority and tried to be more expressive. He was accountable to me and would reassure me all the time. In time I trusted him completely.
What we didn't deal with was the narcissistic underpinnings of this whole thing. A lot of this stems from his childhood. We dealt with it as a relationship issue.
He is currently in IC for these things but this therapist gives very little guidance. I am a new poster here. There was another similar board that I used before which is now gone. This has been a Godsend. You have been a Godsend!
Since I started Plan B the other day, I have struggled on a number of levels. I've been having anxiety almost to the point of panic. Yes, I got some meds to help me deal with it but I really don't want to depend on it. I am just having a terrible time knowing he is with her. It makes me sick. I know that the closer they get to one another, the less likely he will come back.
Last night he invited me to see him. I went. I shouldn't have. The anxiety vanished. It was truly magic. Of course, as soon as I left I was a basket case again. We spoke of him coming back. But he is not ready to cut off ties. I realize that I need to cut ties off completely with him. I see that, but I fear that I will lose him completely. In the meantime I am going nuts. And I am starting to really resent him.
Do I really want this narcissistic man? I cannot understand why I love him so very, very deeply. Everywhere I look, I see him or some memory of our 13 years together. How can I throw that all away?
I just can't believe how much this hurts.
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Hi Susan,
Glad you picked up my message. I know that you are suffering right now....the panic attacks are not unusual at this point. Would you consider going to the doc and getting some anti-depressants to help right now so that you can function better? I'm worried about you.
By extraodinary measures and accountability, I think that we may be talking about two different things.
This is Dr. Harleys's plan for reconciliation and all that entails. If you didn't do these things after the affair....that's what cerri means about "recovery" failure as opposed to "relationship" failure:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Extraordinary Precautions to Avoid A Former Lover To help you totally separate from your lover, and avoid the temptation to see him when you crave him the most, I suggest the following extraordinary precautions:
1. Honesty
The first extraordinary precaution to avoid your lover is to tell your husband all about your affair, and the decision you have made to restore your love for him. Then promise to keep telling him the truth about every aspect of your life, so you never again have a secret second life where you are tempted to hurt him behind his back.
Honesty and openness is one of the best ways to prevent yourself from being inconsiderate of your husband's feelings. It was your friend's threat to reveal all to your husband that motivated you to separate from your lover. Your friend wanted to shed to light of day on the things you were doing in secret to protect your husband. But you should do it yourself. Go right to your husband with the facts. If you had been honest about your budding relationship with your lover from the beginning, it would never have developed into an affair.
You may be afraid that once your husband knows the facts about your ongoing affair, he will leave you. Quite frankly, I think he has the right to make that decision. If, faced with the facts he decides to divorce you, you lose your option to restore your relationship with your him. But you simply cannot build a relationship on lies and deception. Dishonesty will never get you to your goal of loving your husband again. So it's better to get all of the cards out on the table now and build your marriage the right way, even if there is a chance that your husband will throw in the towel before you have a chance to reconcile.
Another reason you may be reluctant to tell your husband the truth is that he might have a violent reaction to what you have done. If you are afraid of his reaction, separate from him first, and then tell him the truth in a public place or with friends who can protect you. If your husband cannot control his temper once he knows the facts, then I see no hope of saving your marriage. Honesty is so important in marriage that if the threat of violence prevents honesty, I don't believe you will ever have a good marriage.
Besides, dishonesty does not prevent violence in marriage, it encourages it. If your honesty brings out violence in your husband, your dishonesty would enrage him even more, once he discovers that you've lied to him.
If you think your husband may divorce you or become violent when you are honest with him, I encourage you to be honest anyway, before you begin your plan for reconciliation. If he cannot accept the truth, no plan of reconciliation will work.
2. Account for Your Time.
Once you have established a willingness to be completely honest with your husband, then continue to be honest with him about all of your activities. Make sure he knows about everything you do throughout the day. Give him a complete schedule of your activities, and let him know which of those activities make you most tempted to contact your former lover. Try to avoid people and places that increase your craving to be with him.
3. Spend As Much of Your Time with Your Husband as Possible.
During withdrawal, there is not much your husband can do to deposit love units into your Love Bank. But it still makes sense for you to be together as much as possible. That's because the more you are with him, the less you will be tempted to contact your lover. Try to have lunch together, talk on the telephone several times a day, and be sure to spend evenings and weekends together.
In many cases, I have suggested that a husband and wife go on a three-week vacation together during the first few weeks of withdrawal, just to help the wayward spouse avoid contacting the former lover. I tell these couples not to expect too many love units to be deposited, but by getting away from the reminders of the lover, they find that such a vacation greatly reduces the time it takes for withdrawal. Besides, the distractions of a vacation can often compensate for the depression that accompanies withdrawal, and makes the experience much less painful.
Sometimes a wayward spouse feels like getting away from everyone during withdrawal, and going on the vacation alone. But it doesn't work. It's too tempting to call the lover, and in many cases the lover ends up joining the wayward spouse.
If you go with your husband on this vacation, you will not feel like being very romantic with him. He should expect very little from you, because you will be recovering from your addiction to your lover. It's only after the craving for your lover subsides, and your depression lifts that you will be able to give your husband the opportunity to deposit all the love units it takes for you to be in love with him again.
Of course, your husband must be very careful to avoid making matters worse by saying and doing anything that would upset you. Granted, he may not be very happy about your affair, but if he wants you to love him again, he must avoid withdrawing love units at all costs. He must be with you as much as possible, yet avoid anger, disrespect and demands, which are all Love Busters. He must also be careful to take your feelings into account whenever you make decisions.
If you slip, and contact your lover in spite of the extraordinary precautions you take, tell you husband about it immediately. Then, improve your extraordinary precautions to include the condition that caused the slip. Keep improving them until it becomes virtually impossible for you to contact your lover. A slip will set you back emotionally, but it does not mean that your recovery plan has been ruined. It simply needs an upgrade.
In many cases, I have encouraged couples to relocate to a different part of the country to avoid contact with a lover. It's a good example of an extraordinary precaution upgrade, when it became apparent that contact with a lover could not be avoided when living in the same city. It goes without saying that when lovers are fellow employees, a job change is absolutely essential to marital recovery. How is total separation from a former lover possible when you work together?
You asked if you should avoid using the internet, since it reminds you of your lover, and tempts you to contact him. I'm sure you can anticipate my answer. I suggest that you stay away from the internet until you are through withdrawal, and you have restored your love to your husband again. Then, I think it would be safe for you to return to it again.
Four Rules to Guide Marital Recovery After you are through withdrawal from the addiction to your lover, your depression will have lifted and you will no longer feel a craving to talk to your lover. At that time you will be ready to put into place rules that will guide you and your husband toward a deep love for each other. After you have followed the rules for a while (six months to two years), you and your husband will be soul-mates.
These are the Four Rules to Guide Marital Recovery that you and your husband should follow to help you restore your love for eachother:
1. The Rule of Protection: Avoid being the cause of your spouse's unhappiness.
If you and your husband want to be in love with each other, you must build your Love Bank accounts. But before you build them, you must be sure there are no leaks in the Love Bank. It's pointless to deposit love units into a sieve, where every deposit is promptly withdrawn by a Love Buster. So you must make a special effort to plug up those leaks by committing yourselves to avoid being the cause of each other's unhappiness.
The most obvious things spouses do to ruin their love for each other is what I call Love Busters. They are angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments, annoying behavior, selfish demands and dishonesty. I describe these destructive habits in my basic concepts, but if you need special help learning how to avoid them, I suggest you read, Love Busters: Overcoming Habits that Destroy Romantic Love. This book will help you identify the Love Busters that keep emptying your Love Bank accounts, and show you how to stop inflicting them on each other.
Most of the Q&A columns I've posted on the Marriage Builders? web site focuses attention on the Policy of Joint Agreement (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse). This policy protects both you and your husband from each other thoughtless decisions. Your affair was a blatant example of thoughtlessness on your part because you knew it would hurt your husband, but you went ahead and did it anyway. The Policy of Joint Agreement is a very important guide to helping you keep the Rule of Protection. That's because it helps you realize that anything you do that hurts your husband is off limits to you, regardless of how wonderful it makes you feel.
If you had followed the Policy of Joint Agreement, you would never have had an affair. But the Policy will also help you avoid hurting each other in a host of other ways, too. My book, Fall in Love, Stay in Love, can help you learn how to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement, and use it to negotiate agreements that are fair for both of you. Once you learn to negotiate with each other fairly, you will have learned how to follow the Rule of Protection.
2. The Rule of Care: Meet your spouse's most important emotional needs.
The way to deposit the most love units is to meet a person's most important emotional needs. Your lover did that when he wrote you all those e-mail letters because conversation was your most important emotional need. After one month of filling your Love Bank with thousands of love units that were e-mailed to you, you found him irresistible -- you were in love with him.
Conversation is not your only important emotional need. Affection, recreational companionship, admiration and sexual fulfillment may be some of the other important emotional needs that your lover met. Unless your husband eventually meets your must important needs as well as your lover met them, you will be frustrated and at risk for another affair.
Sometimes a spouse must learn to meet a need that he or she has never been very effective in meeting. Many of the spouses I've counseled have had to learn to be affectionate for the first time in their lives. They also have had to learn to be stimulating conversationalists and skilled lovers. They have had to learn to provide greater financial support, become more effective in their parenting skills and learn to become admiring instead of being critical. New habits that lead to need fulfillment can be learned by anyone. All it takes is a plan and willingness to follow it until expert level is achieved.
But your husband may already know how to meet your emotional needs. An important reason that you had an affair was that your husband's work schedule prevented him from giving you the attention you craved from him. When you and your husband agree to follow this second Rule to Recovery, his work schedule will no longer stand between you, because meeting your needs will become your husband's highest priority. All the needs that your lover was meeting for you will be met by your husband in the future.
If you need help identifying and learning how to meet each other's important emotional needs, I suggest you read, His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-proof Marriage. It describes the ten most important emotional needs for men and women, and how to become an expert at meeting those needs. When your husband has learned to meet your needs, he will be depositing so many love units that his account in your Love Bank will be overflowing. By then, you will be thoroughly convinced that leaving your lover to rebuild your marriage was the right decision to make.
3: The Rule of Time: Give your spouse your undivided attention.
You indicated in your letter that it was the lack of your spouse's attention that drove you into the arms of your lover. But it may have been more a lack of time than a lack of attention. As I already mentioned, your husband may already know how to meet your emotional needs, but unless he sets aside enough time to do it, all of his skill does you no good at all. It's the man who gives you time for undivided attention who will win your heart.
I suggest that you and your husband plan to spend at least 15 hours each week together, giving each other your undivided attention. Use that time to meet each other's emotional needs for affection, conversation, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment. I have found that if that amount of time is taken to meet emotional needs, you can spend the rest of your 100 waking hours each week doing just about anything you please, without any risk to your love for each other. But if you do not set aside that time, your good intentions will not buy you a single love unit.
Since most everything we do must be scheduled or we don't do it, I suggest you take about a half an hour each week (say, Sunday afternoon from 3:30 to 4:00) to schedule your time together for the next week. Get out your schedules and write each other into your appointment books. Once scheduled, don't let anything interfere with your time together.
I suggest spending the same days and times together every week because it's easier to remember than a new time each week. Besides, you can be better emotionally prepared to be with each other if you always know that Tuesday evening you will be together from 7 to 10.
I also suggest that you spend time together when you have plenty of energy. Don't give each other the leftovers, give each other the best of yourselves. That's why I generally rule out time together after 11:00 pm. For one thing, you need your sleep for the challenges of the next day, and for another, there are not too many people who are at their best that late at night.
Finally, I suggest that you spread your time out every week, giving each other at least one hour of undivided attention every day. I am generally opposed to cramming all of your time together into a marathon weekend of 15 hours, because undivided attention is required, and 15 hours of anything makes undivided attention almost impossible.
4. The Rule of Honesty: Be completely honest with your spouse.
We have already discussed honesty as an extraordinary precaution to prevent you from contacting your lover, so I won't say much more about it. But what you begin as an extraordinary precaution, must become the standard way you and your husband communicate with each other -- with openness and honesty.
You have not been honest with your husband. If you had been honest, you could never have had an affair. Your honesty is your husband's greatest protection because it lets him know what you are up to. It also helps you both make adjustments to each other. Instead of having an affair, you should have told him how unhappy you were with his negligence of you, and how you were falling in love with another man who would give you his time and attention. If you had ended the budding relationship then, and focused on getting more of your husband's undivided attention, you would not have put both of you through such an ordeal.
The Basic Concepts section of this web site contains a section entitled, "the Policy of Radical Honesty." It outlines precisely what the rule of honesty is. It's complete honesty. I want you to read it over very carefully, because it explains precisely how honest you and your husband are to be with each other.
But be careful not to let Love Busters ruin the purity and value of honesty. Keep anger, disrespect and demands out of your honest expression of facts and feelings. If you can do that, you will find your honesty will not only help you find solutions to your problems, but it will also draw you closer together, and help you become the soul-mates that you can be.
If you are willing to permanently end your relationship with your lover (never see or communicate with him again), get through withdrawal, and then you and your husband follow the Four Rules to Guide Marital Recovery, I guarantee you that you will have a great marriage. And I also guarantee you that neither of you will ever suffer through an affair again.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> <small>[ August 18, 2003, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>
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This of course was written to a woman who was the WS.....so I hope it doesn't confuse you.
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We didn't really know about MB concepts back then, so I can say we incorporated some of the concepts into our recovery, but probably not enough. Cerri is right about that. We've failed miserably in the NC department over the last two days. He is seeing what this is doing to me. I fear he will just want to end it to stop my pain. His stepson is visiting from another state starting this week. It's a long story but we have to keep him unaware of this for ten days. My H plans to take him on a trip somewhere. There may be contact during that time too. I can't live with all of this ambivalence. I am screwing up everything--even Plan B. I just don't know if I can handle it.
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Susan,
If you have to see him...for these next ten days....if there is no way to avoid that...then just try not to LB. If you can do that....you are way ahead of the game. This is not an exact science. Life happens...complications occur. Do your best and that's all anyone expects. If you have the opportunity to fill some needs when you see him....do it. Try to hold it together....because when you can go DARK....you want him to remember you at your best. I'm going to bed. But I'll check back in the morning and see how you are. Think about those meds chere. They will not change your personality, just stop the panic okay? I'll put you in my prayers tonight. Try to rest. Regroup. Breathe. This is not over.
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Thanks, again, Star*fish, for the prayer and sanity you are bestowing on me. I did get some meds for anxiety and another for depression. I don't like being drowsy, so I found that when I feel ready to panic, if I just take a half of the anxiety stuff, it really helps. Earlier today I told him I couldn't hold on much longer. He asked me for a week. Now he seems more depressed than ever. I don't want to rush things but there is some reality here. I am unable to work. I don't want to eat. I am in such an acute state. I just can't go on like this for much longer. Would it be easier if her were gone permanently?
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Susan, We've failed miserably in the NC department over the last two days. Plan A/B is NOT a team effort. It's not something you discuss and the ws agrees to. It is only for the bs to do. He (ws) doesn't have to agree to anything.
He will continue to contact you as long as you keep responding to him. Part of MB is learning new habits which are beneficial to relationships. You tell him NO CONTACT and you keep having contact.By doing this, it shows you are not really meaning what you say.
I know it's hard to NOT have contact. But responding to him will only make it harder for YOU. Right now we are not worried about him, except him agreeing to leave the op forever and have no contact. Once he agree to that, THEN and ONLY then, do you start talking with him about reconciliation. <small>[ August 19, 2003, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>
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My first question to you, since this is a habitual thing, is "what do you want?" Dont answer that without taking the time to think. What do you want?
If Steve Harley himself could wave a wand and make things go in a certain direction, what would that look like?
You see, I think your desperation and feeling lost is because you havent decided what you want. Do you want to be rid of this man, or do you want him back? Are you willing to do whatever it takes to get him back, if that is what you want?
You need to seriously sit down now, and look 5 years into the future. What do you want that to look like now, with everything that has happened?
Once you decide that...then you can move forward...and feel a lot more in control of what is going on.
In His arms.
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You need to seriously sit down now, and look 5 years into the future. What do you want that to look like now, with everything that has happened?
Once you decide that...then you can move forward...and feel a lot more in control of what is going on This isn't to get you to make a decision NOW. (I belive that is what MM is saying?) Just that until you make a decision, you shouldn't worry yourself to death about it. Because once a decision is made, you can then steer for that course.
If you want the marriage, then decide you want it and stick to your guns about saving it.
Also, a divorce is not going to make it all go away even though it may be the less stresful route.
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Thanks Chris. You are exactly right.
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Chris, Mortarman, you are both so right. I am the kind of person for which ambivalence is intolerable.
The truth of the matter is, if Steve Harley had a magic wand, I would want to stay married to the man that I dearly love, and he would have resolved all of the issues from his past that cause his narcissistic/cheating behavior.
He claims he wants to work on these things. He is reading and seeing a therapist twice a week. I believe that he genuinely wants to do the work. HOWEVER, I cannot be with him if this doesn't happen. I cannot ever EVER be in this place again.
Pretty straightforward? Not exactly. Because the way I see it, he is with her and it is causing me intense emotional pain. He knows this, it bothers him, he tells me he sees me in his future, yet he refuses to give her up to that we can begin to heal. In fact he is willing to risk the love I have for him, our history together, damaging our daughter by refusing to end it with her.
So I ask myself what kind of man would not want to protect me from this pain? What kind of man would not want to help me heal from it?
You are so right. So much of the pain is in not knowing these things myself.
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Bumping this up plus a quick comment!
Susan,
You wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So I ask myself what kind of man would not want to protect me from this pain? What kind of man would not want to help me heal from it?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry my friend, but you know the answer to this. It's a man who is narcissistic and has a deep narcissistic wound. He can't feel the things he is supposed to feel because he is so damaged emotionally. He has faked it until now, during your "recovery", but he can only fake it for so long. If he doesn't face it head on, then he'll fake it again, until he can't help himself, again. If he can do the work that is necessary to overcome this, then he will make a good husband. If he can't then he will never be the husband that you desire.
The question is...can you at least lead him to the water? I know you can't make him drink, but how do you at least get him there? What's the best process, step by step? Ideas anyone?
Stillwed <small>[ August 19, 2003, 08:05 PM: Message edited by: stillwed ]</small>
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He is sitting at the water, trying to drink it, but at the same time, he is not giving her up. We seem to be getting closer, which I allowed because I wanted to feed some of the positive--go to a hard Plan B if he "one week" didn't work out. I am not even sure if I can hold out that long. He fails to realize that he MUST give her up to do the work on himself. It is like an alcoholic who wants to go through the recovery process without stopping the drinking.
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