Dear N2N,

Hope things work out better for you, regardless of what you decide to do.

Your situation with your husband is unclear as to how the bankruptcy is affecting things. How is your budget? How long can you keep working the extra hours?

Are there any other power moves that are open to you? Other than cutting out visitation at your home? You said you could sue the OW for alientation of affection. What would be required for you to do that? What is the next step for you to take? What is blocking you from the next step? What other powers do you have over the Other Woman? What powers are you actaully willing to use? What possible threats can you legally drop hints about to your Husband? "You are walking out that door, and I better not see your car over at OW's house, because if I do, I have the papers ready to file in court against her the next business day. I suggest you come right back in here where you are supposed to be. You just call her and tell her you have some family emergency matters to attend to overnight. Tell her burgalars have been casing the house again."

How important is it to you that your husband follow the Doc's advice that your younger son not see your husband and his mistress together? Is this a condition of the Court for visitation of younger son?

You said in your first post on this thread that you needed $3000.00 to keep the house from foreclosure. Part of the money came from the savings for your vactation. Did some money come from you husband, voluntarily? How much?

You mention that your husband gives child support. Is that court ordered? Does he give extra, or just the required amount? Is child support ordered to continue through college? Grad School?

Is there anything extra your husband is doing for you or the children? How much of a problem is it for your older son to see his step-dad when your husband comes for visitation? Do you and your husband coordinate on ideas for encouragement and discipline for the Older Son? Is Older Son contributing to the household income, or is he going to college?

If you keep things going along now, is it possible that H will voluntarily help with Younger son's college expenses? I am suggesting that you make a list of things that your husband may do for you, in addition to gifts of wind chimes, that may have meaning for the goals you have for your children. I am suggesting finding ways to minimize jeaprodizing your potential benefits by minimizing the expression of your frustrations, in ways that are indirect, or counter-productive.

It is not clear to me whether your financial difficulties began after you discovered the affair, or before you discovered the affair, during the time the affair was going on secretly.

You said in your Plan B letter:

"I realize that the mistakes I made helped to make our marriage vulnerable to this affair. I am sorry and I have been working hard to understand and learn how to prevent those things from ever happening again. I have changed and become a better person and I want the opportunity to show you that I can be the wife and marriage partner you disire. I wish I could go back and change the mistakes I have made in the past, but I can't."

Why can't you offer to make up for your mistakes? What were the mistakes you made? Does your older son understand why those mistakes were important? What life-experience does he have to base his understanding of your mistakes?

You said your problem is when your husband leaves the house, and you feel he is going to the home of OW. You don't have a problem when he is playing with your younger son, washing the dog, or fixing the lawn mower. You don't seem to mind fixing meals for your husband. What about before it is time for him to leave, you leave yourself. If he has not promised to be there past a certain time, you just get dressed up, maybe not real fancy, and go out. Have it worked out with some of your friends that will come over and visit, dressed up, and feeling good about yourself. Have your son call you on the cell phone when your husband has gone. Verizon has a prepay plan for $15.00 per month. You can just go to a McDonald's and sit in the parking lot till you get the all-clear. I put a McDonald's cup on the dash of my car, so I don't get hassled, if I need a place to hide out for a while.

You mention that your husband ssspeaks in fog-talk. You mention that you fall under his spell of wishful thinking. You have plans to leave while he visits, and you end up staying. I suggest that there are two parts to why you stay. One is fog-talk. The other is your husband's concrete action of being helful to your household. When you are by yourself, it is probably important to separate out your heart's wishes. It is probably a good idea to make a list of the concrete contributions he makes. But also to estimate the reserve energy and resources for unexpected emergencies.

You say that you have used Plan A to its fullest possible postential. How about giving us readers some examples and details? Have you asked MB readers for further ideas and embelishments for Plan A?

Best wishes,

Quipper

<small>[ October 21, 2003, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

Quipper, You want to know my plan A, WELL FOR TWO YEARS NOW I HAVE EAT SH@& LET HIM throw it at me, I HAVE ONLY LB ONE TIME. DO YOU HERE ME? ONCE!!!!!!! since he left it was, WHEN HE WENT TO THE BEACH WITH HER FOR THE FIRST TIME. HE ASK WHAT WAS WORONG WITH ME THAT WAS AFTER HE ASK ME TO FIND HIS FU**ing beach towels and I yelled Nothing other then you are going to the beach with another family!!!!!!One time in two years I LB. I have Planed A my A$$ off. I have saved my house my H gave 1233.00 towards it if you must know. This woman (SLUT) put us in the fix I am in now and it is all their falt. I ain't taken the f&cken blame no more I have given up many years to this man the past two was my choice the other I wanted to be there and I was for everthing!!!!! Do you here me I WAS THERE FOR EVERYTHING!!!!!!WHAT WAS NEEDED WAS GOTTEN!!!!

NOW FOR MY SON THE OLDEST GET OFF HIM WE ARE FINE! I HAVE VERY, DO YOU HERE ME? VERY ROUND MINDED KIDS. WE ARE A FAMILY, A REAL FAMILY!!!!!WE BELEIVE IN EACH OTHER MOM AND CHILDREN. I SAID I WOULD NEVER LEAVE THEM TILL THE DAY I DIE AND I HAVE KEPT MY WORDS. MY KIDS THEY ARE THE BEST!!!!!!

You wanted to know my mistakes I gave up my life for them my family and that is what I wanted and I guess it was wrong! Family meaning not just H,sons the whole family I was there for all of them and now that I am going trough all of this I'm left alone like I have got some fu$$ing diease. You find out real fast who will be here and who won't when something like this comes.

You know what? I am not bothering with this sh&t. I am so tired of holding all of this in I think I am going crazy!!!!!!! I understand what happens to me I have a choice on how it effects me, and I have let it go to far, and I want to stop it that is all I am asking here how????? Help anyone! I am telling you I have so much built up, I don't know what is going to happen and I pitty the person that will get it!

Quipper, I do thank you for your time, but you are not going to make this man one up on me it took him a month in a half to fix that mower. I asked once and I waited and waited and waited till Y son said it again and he said I will this Sunday well two Sunday then it was fixed. He knew I was useing the neighbors and that is not right.

Thanks to some, and I am so sorry for my anger, but no more! I truely came here for help I really love my Husband, but I leave out of here crying more and feeling less self. This is no damn pitty party this was me asking for help!!!! I feel you all think I am some what ever here. I really do, I agree to some of what (now what) said in his first part of his post. I, me will save it all again on my own and if it is with my H so be it if not I will be heart broken and pray God helps me.

AS FOR MY KIDS, NO ONE! DO YOU HEAR ME AGAIN WILL HURT THEM AS LONG AS I CAN HELP IT. God put this in my hands for some reason I do not know why now but one day we will see together as mom and children or dad, mom and children!

THANKS AND I AM SORRY NO MORE I CAN'T TAKE NO MORE. JUST WANTED SOMETHING FOR ME FOR A CHANGE AND THAT IS MY HUSBAND AND FAMILY WHOLE AGAIN.

<small>[ October 20, 2003, 11:05 PM: Message edited by: No2nos ]</small>

Dear NN,

{{{{hug}}}} I know you need it and justifably so.

I not only hear your pain but can recall the same.

Listen NN, life is not fair and being the BS is one of the hardest things to endure. When I came here 2 other MBers had lost their children yet it was living through the A that gave them the most pain. Don't get me wrong, it is hard for a parent to see their children suffer but the betrayal of the A cuts deep in another way.

We can see and hear you are a good mom. I don't believe anyone is doubting that. Also that basically you are a good W. No argument there but why do you and your family have to suffer so?

Not because you did anything to deserve it. The choices our spouses make sometimes can make us smile or cry. This is one of those crying times.

I asked you those questions because I wanted you to see how you responded. I think answering them to someone else often reverberates back to our senses and makes us think again.

The frustration you are feeling will pass. Really, it will. You may not want to hear that right now but later you will.

If you go off now and leave your support, it will be harder. I know you are angry and it is ok to vent here. I sure did, many a time. Over 6k in posts and I am still here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

So NN, don't stop being a good W and mother. If you can, don't stop posting. We are not perfect but this group understands like no other. At least not like any other I have found.

Hang in there with us NN, the pain will subside and the sun will still come out soon.

Hugz,
L.

All I want to know is all of this worth it I haven't cried this hard in a long time I feel it won't stop! What do I do? Please???

NN,

What do you do? Right now you gotta cry. That is what you can do.

It is something you have to let yourself work out. Don't push yourself too hard.

Have you ever read the 5 stages of grieving?

Here's the thread: 5 stages of grieving

Read this, I felt the same as you did. That's why my posts are sooo high - LOL!!!

Is there light at the end of the tunnel? Yes. Where is it? It is right there but your eyes are shut too tight to see it. Read, read, read, get ahold of the books love must be tough by Dr James Dobson. Surviving and Affair by Dr. W Harley. Reading will help calm you down and then you can work on putting your mind and heart in sync. Then you can heal. U 1st then if your H is willing the M.

1 step at a time. Right now is it ok to cry. ok?

Where are you? Maybe there's some MB in your area?

Keep posting. That surely helped me. I have to go run an errand right now but keep posting if you need, or get some rest if you can.

Hugz,
L.

THANK YOU! I will do that now and maybe it will give me something different to work with and think on and I'll post back later. It just hit me out of no were the crying? I am so tired and I feel num I guess it is part of all this. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

<small>[ October 20, 2003, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: No2nos ]</small>

NN,

I understand. Anxiety attacks used to happen to me a lot. If this is what you are experiencing, then you may want to visit your doctor.

Can he make it go away? No but maybe some meds may help you cope better.

My anxiety attacks used to be daily (at work, during meetings, driving, shopping and many times at home). Out of the blue, I'd start bawling. I am also a manager and mom. Guess what? People thought I didn't have a heart (cuz of my job - LOL!!), well I did, I cried buckets. My staff and boss were and are very supportive. I made it through. I learned it was better to face the music than hide from it.

The anxiety attacks were because my body could no longer take the interalization of the stress. Once I realized this, I learned to work with the attacks and not fight it. Eventually they became less and less.

Hope this helps.
L.

Thank you again. It is really getting to me I can't keep holding it in. I know that, but I do not know what to do with it. It should all go to him not nobody else this is between he and I.

That is why I was asking about Plan B were should I go ? Do you think it is worth it? I just want to say,I know your going to think I'm hanging on every word but this past Sunday he corrected some one in front of me sayiny "she is married to me " I, keeping my month shut thinking to myself ya right on paper and in some sick way your mind. WE took Y son to the fair 2 Sundays ago. Had a great time and he wins a bear and hands it to me. Y son on a ride and I said Oh Y son will love that. H says no its for you I won it for you. This is why I think I am going crazy what is all of this he is saying and doing? What???????

He takes for every to leave he just stands there like he wants to say something, this has been going on for a couple of months. Y son says when we get back from the fair daddy I wish you would live with me. H looks at me and I said you are going to have to talk with him. H told Yson He loves him and he know he wishes that and leaves. What the hell is going on!NO MORE!

N2N,

{{{{{{{more hugs}}}}}}}}}}}}

Cry on our shoulders. We understand.

Well, in my humble opinion, you should send the letter. You need Plan B to protect you from these emotions, from the wondering when he says things like he is saying.

N2N, he sounds like a genuine cake-eater to me. He is hanging on to you, unable to give up N2N and his family. Don't you see? You must separate from him, totally. You must give him a big bite of the reality of not having you in his life, of having his life changed forever.

Be strong...do this...it's for you, but it may just give him a hit between the eyes and make him wake up.


*S*

Dear N2N,

Perhaps you could put the issues aside for a while, and let God and your subconscious work on your issues.

You are a good mother and a good person, and you are contributing to the community. A high priority should be for you to feel good about yourself.

Your situation is challenging. Thank you for recognizing that I did take some time in think out the ideas in my post yesterday, to try to divide up the facts, feelings, powers and unspoken agreements, for you to make clearer decisions, under confusing circumstances.

It was never my intent to reduce your feeling of self-worth. Sometimes I am sad when I realize I have been overlooking some aspect of an issue. Hopefully I become a better husband for considering more of the total picture.

Please feel free to continue to express any anger the issues may bring up for you. I do take time to try to word my ideas in a thoughtful manner. Through feedback, I can also improve.

Best wishes,

Quipper
Married 28 years, 2 challenging, grown kids, still struggling

Dear Sparkle,

Thank you for posting suportively, as N2N is appartently at a difficult juncture.

As I understand N2N's situation, visitation for the younger, 5 year old, biological son, occurrs three days a week, at the home of N2N. N2N tries to leave when her wayward husband arrives, but generally ends up staying. What changes are you suggesting that N2N make, to effectuate Plan B? Her husband has a Plan B letter from N2N, but simply claims not to have read it. Also, N2N receives significant voluntary payments from wayward husband, at least occasionally. Are you suggesting that she work more hours to become more financially independent, or that she sell her house and move to something less expensive? Or re-finance? How do you re-finance, or buy a less expensive home, if you have recently been in bankruptcy?

You suggest that wayward husband is a genuine cake eater. I would see a cake eater as one who takes extra on the side, without a genuine purpose.

N2N's husband is living with the other woman, 7 nights and 4 days, and his wife, N2N, is more the cake on the side. Some husbands simply pay the required child support, and take the youngster occasionally for visits, but they don't give the wife anything extra. If N2N decides to start standing on her rights, it seems to me, N2N may well force her husband to stay 7 days and nights with the other woman, and give up the three days at N2N's home.

N2N currently has the goodwill of her wayward husband. But wayward is not a correct term, really, becasue since N2N's husband is living with another woman; her husband is more of an ex-husband than a wayward husband.

The situation faced by N2N, does not fit readily into MB typical situations.

I have tried to help N2N think through the specifics of her situation. Since I feel I have probably achieved an overload of ideas, it would be nice if others could help her with the specifics.

Your handle, Sparkle, is refreshing,

Thanks,

Quipper

No2nos,
I've read this post and am very impressed with you and the way you have handled this crisis in your life. You are a strong woman and certainly a wonderful mother. You have been and are a great wife. Knowing and doing the right thing is difficult when we are in the midst of a crisis. MB is here to help you...as you know, we have all been through it.

Your WH is just that a WH....cake eating etc. I have to disagree with Q's clinical annalysis of your situation. From EXPERIENCE I can relate to you. REad the principles Harley lists. It is important for you to let your H know you will not be the door mat. He needs to know he is withdrawing too many love units for you to hold onto your love for him. He wants you to wait until he is finished "playing around." He fully expects you to take all the blame for the emotional financial state of your relationship. His comments about you being his wife and his attitude are classic fog talk.

Read "Love Must Be Tough" by Dr. James Dobson. The idea is to gain control of yourself and not others by demanding and expecting respect. He is making the choice to live w/ the OW, thus showing you the most disrespect possible. He may spend time w/ your son, but he still goes home to OW. I know this hurts you, but your H needs a dose of reality. He has access and control to all that is important to him.(Cake eater)

Taking back control of your life will be a test of faith, strength and endurance. I think you have what it takes to acheive this. I didn't have MB or Plan B and I did it the hard way, alone. I've been where you are with 4 small children. My WH did and said so many of these things. But until I stood my ground about the OW and our lives together nothing changed.

No one can tell you what to do as a miricle fix it. It will take so much work on both your parts. At present H is not working on your M. It sounds as though H is protecting his ego and avoiding the real facts and issues. H is your S father, but not your H. Reality is hard to face when you think you have it all.

Tell your H what you want. Don't be manipulated. You have been going through this for far too long. Let him know you will not be door mat or a safety net for him. He must see it as a win, win situation. No OW, equals YOU, your little boy, your home, your life. The life he has now equals pain, confusion, mistrust, negative feeling. He must know he won't have you, your home, your feeling, your cooking, your admiration, your time, your love....He will always have his boys but will have lost his family. Don't buy into his old stories. Demand respect and if he can't give it, like any person who would be disrespectful to you, eliminate their presence in your life. You can and have been taking care of everything in your life for the last yr or so.

There are no guaranties, only experiences, shoulders to cry on and leasons learned.

Take care of yourself, get some time off for yourself. THis may requir you H taking s out of the house on Sun. You need and deserve the time off. Trust me...I remember those days. (my 4C were from 3 to 13)

All of this comes from a heart broken, and mended. Miricles do happen you just have to let them happen in God's time.
My prayers are with you.

Thank you so..... very much JuJu from the bottom of my heart for posting here I thought I was going crazy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I'm glad to see I am typing in English here for awhile I thought I was writing in another language, and nobody was understanding what I was trying to say. I thought they were thinking I am just this what ever a fool, loser I don't know. Just Thank you.

You to Sparkle,Orchid thanks for you time and posting to me I thought I was goin to never stop last nite, doing a little better today. Orchid I read the post you sent me THANKS!! Will post more later cleaning out H's stuff and boxing every little thing up!

Thank you so..... very much JuJu from the bottom of my heart for posting here I thought I was going crazy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I'm glad to see I am typing in English here for awhile I thought I was writing in another language, and nobody was understanding what I was trying to say. I thought they were thinking I am just this what ever a fool, loser I don't know. Just Thank you.

You to Sparkle,Orchid thanks for you time and posting to me I thought I was goin to never stop last nite, doing a little better today. Orchid I read the post you sent me THANKS!! Will post more later cleaning out H's stuff and boxing every little thing up!

N2n,

Do me a favor and read up on plan B and let me know your thoughts (why, when and how to execute it).

RE: I would like to know your thought pattern and then get some here to help you put a good plan B letter together.

IMHO your situation is ripe for plan B. U may need to let the OW meet all his needs. R U ready for that?

L.

I will do that, I am ready if you think it is worth it, yes I think it is worth it! and I will bust my butt off to get this family back to its new forum. Can not go back I have grown much and if it was wrong then you get my point? thank you

why-I feel I am at the end of my rope.I have Plan A for almost two years and I have given myself a time frame. My wedding anv. is Oct.27 and I will be spending it alone again.I said I wouldn't do that again enless that was if I had a answer to us. I hurt when he leaves. I need to know what he wants, I have asked and I get brushed off. I guess the real answer here is Love, I love the stupid fool.

when- As soon as it can be done I have built myself up to this and I have to, need to do it!

execute it- I will have to leave when or before he gets here and that will be hard at first because Y son crys, I have done it a few times. If he got bothered by me leaving for one Sat. and was asking everyone what my plans were then God what will he do then. He does not want Plan B. Why I don't know he didn't say other then we weren't like other couples and I see here we are, we are all hurt and are in pain for the path they took for us. I don't think he really knows how his life would be. I will do a good Plan B.

My MIL says see will to. She is not happy with her son at all and he knows that. He knows she will never met this OW. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

So Ow has never met sons, will never meet MIL, any of his family they say no. What kind of woman is OW does she not see what she has done here. H has spent EVERY holiday with us here. H will not be here for this Tanksgiving, all ready talked to MIL about it and she is fine with that and what ever it takes. Halloween is his day to visit so he will come for that, take Y son and I will ask him to leave at his normal time, H will not like that. Halloween is a big thing for us here all the kids love to come to are house we go all out and I will not stop that because he has moved on, didn't last year and won't this year.

I hope I answered all of what you wanted sorry about me running on with my words here. BIG THANKS!!

<small>[ October 22, 2003, 12:46 AM: Message edited by: No2nos ]</small>

N2n,

Wasn't that hard was it? Writing it out helps us see where we really are and where we need to go.

You seem to be formulating a plan. I recommend you remove the info about the will. No need to have him or OW peeking in here and finding stuff out that may hurt you and your family.

Take a look at these threads 1st:

plan a 101 revised 2nd edition

<a href="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000177.html" target="_blank">plan b 101 revised 2nd edition
</a>

Then let us know what you think. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

L.

Will do, Thanks

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I read what you asked Orchid, and how do you know if it is your head telling you or your heart&soul? I want to follow my heart and soul. I am at the num stage if there is one. I know he has hurt me and I feel that.

I have looked deep I mean deep into myself and sometime I just get lost and then it all hit me! He is a very selfish man. The affair started after our son was born and he was not getting the attention he wanted. I can not figure why I really can not! My life has been on hold for awhile now and its time I get it back. I look back and do not know how I have gotten this far and why I would want this in my life. I just know I do care about him and the love is running low. The deeper I dig into myself the sadder I get,it is like a window was open inside of me and I can see it so clear now.

I am running on with my typing again just need to let it out as it keeps hitting me more and I am on vacation for the fist time in two years and I really have time to stop and think with a clear mind. H did not like that I packed the rest of his stuff up. He seamed to get a mood on him after he seen it. Oh well, you have been gone for almost two years what do you want me to do?

Thnaks to all

<small>[ October 23, 2003, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: No2nos ]</small>