Hiya J

Wow, that sure does sound interesting. Seems like the "protect what love you have left" part of Plan B hasn't necessarily worked for you, since you have to see her anyway.

But then, you do sound calm, and serene, and fairly well at peace with your current life situation, and that's most certainly a good thing.

Here's hoping you keep finding just a bit more happiness each day, no matter where it comes from. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Awed, thank you very much. I don't mind a big thumbs up at all! In fact, I revel in them on the rare occasions that I get them. Heck, I like admiration as much as the next girl. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

And yeah, it was heartbreaking to see those pictures. A lot of it was because I was being excluded from pictures of very important times in DD's life. And the kick in the groin was the cute little family portrait pictures and the pictures of caregiving activities that I do not think are appropriate for an unrelated male adult.

Still, there is peace in some portion of my soul, and it seems to be here more or less permanently. I just deal with what comes, and I take it one day at a time, and I try to balance all of the advice I get and figure out how to make a coherent whole out of it. It's darned difficult.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Just J:
<strong> ..... and I try to balance all of the advice I get and figure out how to make a coherent whole out of it. It's darned difficult. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ever try hanging upside down and looking at things differently?

I can't say that I've experienced quite the heartache that you are going through J but I can sense the pain. You took steps to save your relationship that most on these boards find excuses to avoid. You've come a long way baby and you know you can find help here.

And as long as you are quoting, how about, "It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood,....." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

HoFS

J-

A MAN huh?!

All I can say is that I know how you feel, but a NEW relationship right now is really only a diversion from the pain you feel. Greive your loss completely beforer getting someone new involved. Otherwiswe, it will get more complicated and crazy. You don't need that in your life, or the life of that precious little one right now.

I understand your reasons for nC and I can relate to your frustrations with implementing it. I had a court mediation yesterday and it was very difficult to explain why I have had very little contact. Eventually, when the investigation happens, at least I have a professioinal counselor that will state WHY it had to happen. I think you're well past this point.

I'm proud of where you've arrived at. I truly value your input because it is a great resource for me in my own child battle...

Hugs to you... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Ever try hanging upside down and looking at things differently?

Heh. Why yes, in fact, I have. I nearly threw up in the process, but that may have been the excessive quantities of alcohol that had entered my bloodstream immediately prior to the experience.

I bet I could make that into a metaphor about marriage...

ANYWAY.

If I were going to look at the whole thing upside down, what would I see? Hm. I would see the undersides of the things that I've been looking at all this time. I would see the support structure of the roof. The legs of the table. The undersides of the staircase.

What would I see?

I would see my own anger as a source of my pain. I would see my own pain as a source of strength. I would see destruction as the beginning of something new. I would see the end as inevitable and the beginning as mutable. I would see Justice as this:

I am never random.
Nature is capricious but when I weigh your life,
I am otherwise.

I am without error.
Truth is concrete in my court; wrong is not abstract;
my balance never waivers.

I am without mercy.
You will be stripped before me. Stand tall or beg:
your sentence still will come.

How clean and light you'll be, how pure,
when all your sins fall to my sword
and you are free

(No, that's not my own words. It's from http://www.eosdev.com/Illustrations_Quotes/Cyndi/eos_fool_justice.htm)

A MAN huh?!

Kily, you have no idea how hard I laughed when I read this. I think you might be the only person who noticed. Yeah, I like boys AND girls. Boys are more like candy and girls are more like tuna casserole, but I like 'em both.

And I completely agree with you that a new realtionship right now is a dreadful idea. As I've put it to a few friends of mine, "I don't want to go out with anyone who would want to go out with me right now."

Which is sad, because I'm STILL a fun date. I just can't imagine that I'd be fun day-in-day-out yet. I'm not sure the grieving ever really ends, but it can be more closed than this.

My lawyer nearly jumped for joy when I said I'd met someone who was attractive to me. And was horribly disappointed when I said no, I wasn't considering getting involved yet.

She really really wants me over this. Then again, she's in the "WP is not worthy" crowd. Which is perhaps true, but SO WHAT? I still married her. Or whatever it was that we did.

I had a court mediation yesterday and it was very difficult to explain why I have had very little contact. Eventually, when the investigation happens, at least I have a professioinal counselor that will state WHY it had to happen. I think you're well past this point.

The point of having to explain NC? Well, you never know. My attorney (yes, her again) tells me that everything I do for the rest of my life is evidence in a court case and that I have to always always always plan for that contingency.

She's right, I'm sure.

But turning that on its head, that's ALWAYS been true. I've always tried to live my life so that everything I wrote and said could become public without me being ashamed of it.

I have not succeeded in that goal, and there is shame in one or two things that I've done.

Still, there is no difference here, except that the stakes are now not just for me, but for me and DD as well.

And THAT difference comes with being a parent, not with being in this situation. So I must continue to do the best I can in making decisions that are right for me and for DD, and not only right in my mind, but in the eyes of society as a whole and fmaily court judges in particular.

Hurray, life just got a lot more boring. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />


I'm proud of where you've arrived at. I truly value your input because it is a great resource for me in my own child battle...

Hugs to you... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> [/QB][/QUOTE]

J,

I'm sorry, but I really CAN'T resist....

I have to ask it

So would a hemorphradite(SP) work? Then you kind of get your candied tuna, or tuna flavored candy in one giant package... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

God that was awful, but as I said, I couldn't resist...

Hope you at least laughed.

Candied tuna?!?!?!?!??! Thank goodness the food poisoning was earlier in the week, or I really WOULD be hurling!!! Hee hee hee, yes, I laughed, and thank you for that.

Oddly enough, I do know someone who's a hermaphrodite. An extremely unusual one, at that, with completely functional overies AND testes... there's something that's hard to get one's mind around. And no, it's not fun for him (he was raised male); the competing hormones are -really- tough to deal with, much less the other physical problems he's got to live with.

And yes, he's as odd and as unappealing to me as candied tuna would be. I like him as a person, but lordy, the issues he has...

Candied tuna...you guys crack me up! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

On a serious note, I really really like this...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would see my own anger as a source of my pain. I would see my own pain as a source of strength. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tell me Just J, how do you feel about anger?

What I did, and regularly advise others to do, is to see beneath the anger, to get to the root of it. I suspect that (most? all?) anger IS pain, and that by understanding the root (the pain) you can actually deal with the problem. It is a form of honesty with yourself.

And I agree that pain is or becomes a source of strength. Furthermore, to feel that pain without merely reverting to anger as a defence is incredibly empowering.

Well...don't mean to start a whole philosophical debate on your thread! But I was really struck by your quote and wondered if you see it the same way.

thanks for sharing as always...awed

Just J, Oh I'm bad, bad, bad! You always respond to me, and here I'm just tuning into your long thread after a month or so. Well, an 8-page thread is daunting...and I haven't been around much. I've wanted to drop my identity as a betrayed spouse, and part of that had been tuning out from MB site.

Sounds like Plan B is working for you the same as it worked for me -- it allows you to disconnect. Yes, that description of someone weeping in a bus...that's how it feels for me, too. It DOES protect your love -- if she ends the affair. But as you know I, too, can't imagine going back to my WP. Haven't spoken to him in months, as I told the lawyer to whom he had characterized our split as "amicable."

When they tell you to "get over it," tell them, "I have. In my own way." When they say, "Move on" (truly the cliche of our era), say "I am, but not in the direction you apparently envisioned." Why not flirt with this new person? I, too, can't envision ever living with anyone again -- but it's nice to have someone around who finds you fun, and attractive.

People like your lawyer just don't want to see you in pain. My friends keep pushing me towards someone, anyone, they think will be a new fling. I know they mean well. But intelligently filling your time and your life will stand you in much better stead in the long term. Well, you know that already.

One thing about new "relationships": I'm trying not to put everything in the "pain" box, or the "sex" box. I'm trying to be open to the idea that presents may come in boxes I haven't seen before. The "dangerous" man you warned me about is becoming a true friend, in an odd sort of way. A profound liking has displaced even an overwhelming attraction. Strange. So if we can keep from mixing things up in our head, we might wind up with strange new gifts, instead of the old ones. It doesn't always have to wind up in bed.

Sounds like your WP is going through a lot of strange stuff -- weeping, etc. Hold to your Plan B. You can discuss all of that -- maybe -- when the A is over. Otherwise, you can't afford to get involved in her issues.

Take care, Just J. You are doing just fine.

<small>[ January 16, 2004, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

P.S. Put the photos in a drawer, along with the memories, with a plan not to open it for another year or so. No good revisiting those emotions. They won't take you anywhere.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would see my own anger as a source of my pain. I would see my own pain as a source of strength. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tell me Just J, how do you feel about anger?

I usually look at anger as the product of fear or hurt, or any threat to the person who is angry.

HoFS asked what would happen if I were hanging upside down. Well, when I turn that upside down, I see my pain as a product of my anger. My anger as a cause of pain in my life.

I see that as being at least as valid as the first, though I hadn't considerred it until I turned it upside down.

What I did, and regularly advise others to do, is to see beneath the anger, to get to the root of it. I suspect that (most? all?) anger IS pain, and that by understanding the root (the pain) you can actually deal with the problem. It is a form of honesty with yourself.

When I sit with my anger and listen to it, yes, it's often actually a hurt grown large. Perhaps always; I haven't been sitting with my anger regularly for long enough to know for certain.

I also know that anger is pain grown strong in one way. Channeled, I have used my anger to energize the boundaries and protections in me, to give me the energy to do the things that I needed to do.

Anger is better transformed than channeled, though, because the lingering miasma of the anger taints what you use it for. Still, the miasma can also be transformed, so it's not necessarily permanent damage.

And I agree that pain is or becomes a source of strength. Furthermore, to feel that pain without merely reverting to anger as a defence is incredibly empowering.

Is it? Hm. I'll have to think about this one. Mostly it just hurts. The other day I was hurt and angry and terribly sad. My daughter was with me, and normally I try not to get into a place where she gets to see those emotions.

But she did, and so I sat with her and tried to express why I was crying. Hey, so what if she's one year old? I've been explaining stuff like this since she was three months old, the day WP told me she wanted to "postpone" the adoption.

If it could calm DD down when she was three months old, it'd certainly have some effect when she's a year old.

So I said to her that Mommy and I were best friends once, and we used to be really happy to see each other, the way she and Uncle J are. [She gets this GOOFY grin on her face when he shows up...] And I said that we can't do that anymore, and I really miss her sometimes.

And that was all completely true, and it was very odd to get to the heart of my hurt and pain that day and find that it was still that I miss her sometimes after all that's happened and after how much of my life I've rebuilt in the last several months.

But was it empowering? Dear me, I honestly don't know. What I find empowering is to be able to sit and listen to my anger and know that it's not going to eat me alive if I don't act on it.

Listening to my pain, though, well, mostly that just hurts. And eventually, it stops hurting and peace returns. Perhaps that's because I've just put the hurt away instead of taking care of it enough that it can stop stomping around in my head crying.

Well...don't mean to start a whole philosophical debate on your thread! But I was really struck by your quote and wondered if you see it the same way.

Hey, I'm always up for a philosophical discussion. Well, okay, I got a C+ on my paper about DesCartes in Philosophy 101, but that's all right. I got an A- on the one about Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, and would have gotten an A if the professor had known ANYTHING about kids. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

thanks for sharing as always...awed

We aim to please! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hiya, AM! No worries about showing up on my thread. You're welcome here no matter how long it's been! Sorry about the whole 8-page thing. I'm, err, going for the record? In which case, I have a tremendously long way to go, I know! Somehow I hope my saga doesn't last long enough for that, in all honesty.

Sounds like Plan B is working for you the same as it worked for me -- it allows you to disconnect.

Yeah, and I'm finding that even when I get angry or upset, I can usually manage to resist doing anything until I'm calm again. Not always and not perfectly, but much better than I was.

When they tell you to "get over it," tell them, "I have. In my own way." When they say, "Move on" (truly the cliche of our era), say "I am, but not in the direction you apparently envisioned." Why not flirt with this new person? I, too, can't envision ever living with anyone again -- but it's nice to have someone around who finds you fun, and attractive.

Wow, AM, excellent advice in terms of the stuff I should say to people. I need more ways to agree with people without feeling like I'm giving in to their point of view, and those are good ways to do it.

Why not flirt? Well, two reasons. No, three. First, I wouldn't want to date someone who'd want to date me right now. (Did I already say that here somewhere?) Second, when I do re-enter a relationship, whether it's with WP or someone else, I want to be able to be open to the possibility of spending my life with that person, not just go into .... oh, bother. I can't figure out how to explain it. I guess I'd say if it were "just" flirting, I could do it now without much difficulty.

But I see my own reactions to mildly romantic emotions, and they're still a wee bit (note incredibly ability for understatement here) overreactive to friendly overtures, much less anything more. All in all, I think I'd rather not make other people deal with that version of messed-up-human.

People like your lawyer just don't want to see you in pain.

Well, most people. My lawyer? She's all about strategy for dealing with the kids. My own emotional state, on the other hand.... well, let's just say I think she thinks that a good roll in the hay with a handsome, devilish, wealthy man is just what I need.

I sometimes wonder if that's what SHE needs, but I've seen her husband. She's GOT it.

I know they mean well. But intelligently filling your time and your life will stand you in much better stead in the long term. Well, you know that already.

Yep! That's why I hang out here. (I could make that a joke, but I'm actually serious. So y'all can smile with me at the joke that could've been but isn't.)

One thing about new "relationships": I'm trying not to put everything in the "pain" box, or the "sex" box.

Errrrrr. I'm tempted to make comments about the intersection of those two boxes, but I'll just, uhm. Not. Ayup. Moving right along!! Nothing to see, nothing to see!

I'm trying to be open to the idea that presents may come in boxes I haven't seen before. The "dangerous" man you warned me about is becoming a true friend, in an odd sort of way. A profound liking has displaced even an overwhelming attraction. Strange. So if we can keep from mixing things up in our head, we might wind up with strange new gifts, instead of the old ones. It doesn't always have to wind up in bed.

Yeah. This part is really important to me, and really, that's how I'm filling much of my time. Friendships with women, in particular, are really nice right now. I'm as unlikely to fall into a bounce-back relationship with a woman as you can possibly imagine; it takes me two or three years to even recognize the possibility of an attraction with most women.

We'll exclude the one case of love at first sight that I've ever experienced. That one STILL knocks me back on my heels when I think about meeting her... DEAR GOD. THAT WAS THREE YEARS AGO TODAY.

'Scuse me while I have an incredibly strong moment of unbelievably vivid memory....

Right. As I was saying, woman are great for the kinds of friends that I need right now. Not interested in tugging at all the raw edges of my heart, but very interested in talking and spending time and truly being -friends-. That's what I need, and what I'm getting. I like having female friends now that I'm old enough to have learned to value them rather than intimidating them half to death, so it's really fun to spend time on.

Sounds like your WP is going through a lot of strange stuff -- weeping, etc. Hold to your Plan B. You can discuss all of that -- maybe -- when the A is over. Otherwise, you can't afford to get involved in her issues.

Yeah, that's pretty much where I'd ended up. Her issues are sad for her, and I hope she's able to work them out. But I've been everywhere from her ardent supporter and confidante to Plan B in the last year. All in all, I see someone who I was unable to help, and who hurt me very badly in the process. I still very much hope for her happiness, but I can't be the one who helps with it these days.

Take care, Just J. You are doing just fine.

Yes I am!! My only annoyance at the moment is that I'm waiting for my attorney to call me and I'm supposed to go to the gym and I just don't get cell phone service in the basement.

It's probably a good thing that this is my worst annoyance of the moment...

<small>[ January 19, 2004, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: Just J ]</small>

P.S. Put the photos in a drawer, along with the memories, with a plan not to open it for another year or so. No good revisiting those emotions. They won't take you anywhere.

That's exactly what I did. Well, closet shelf, but close enough. They can stay there for s long as I need them to be there.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We'll exclude the one case of love at first sight that I've ever experienced. That one STILL knocks me back on my heels when I think about meeting her... DEAR GOD. THAT WAS THREE YEARS AGO TODAY. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WOW! That just jumped off the page and took my breath away! Sorry...been lurking on this one, J. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

It took me back...(gosh!) 25 years ago when I first laid eyes on my WH..."He looks interesting...he seems nice...he is unattached." It snowballed from there, growing stronger each day as I saw him (we were co-workers). Such powerful emotions, such amazing memories. Such sadness, knowing he's "away" from me now and may never return.

Or, he may force me to make a decision not to allow him to return...it has gone on far too long.

Just J -- could you send me your email addy? Quick note to send to you.

justj_mb@yahoo.com

J,
I pray for you quite often, and will continue to do so.

I read your posts and I think about you - I wish I could help more. I suppose that mostly when I don't know what to say, I am quiet, so I don't always post to you when I read your comments.

I have noticed that you havn't lost your sense of humor, and you are still growing. I compliment you for the way you are willing to help others.

I picked up on what Kily noticed, and I laughed a bit about that - thought everyone did.

I know you are still wondering about some things, and I think you have a much better chance of finding your answers now than even a year ago.

Sometimes it's tough, but I trust you will do well, in fact, I am sure of it. I have faith in you.

SS

Thanks, Still Seeking. It always seems to me that you and God seem to have a good working relationship. I figured you could put in a good word for me.

It's been a rough week; it's amazing how much damage can be done in a half hour, it really is. But in the end, I'm still in Plan B and life is still going in the direction it should go in. Slowly, with backsliding and upsets, but every day I go closer to where I want to be.

And most of the time on most days, my WP doesn't even cross my mind. I noticed that recently, in a sort of distantly interested sort of way. I wasn't even surprised by it.

My daughter and I are doing well. She's speaking a few words; "hi" "byebye" "no!" "mama" "mommy" and a few other noises. A surprised "OOoooo!!!!" noise is the funniest of them. She makes it when she notices, for example, a piece of cellophane wrap on the floor that she wants me to pick up for her. It worked once. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Another of my favorites is her "Ha! ha! ha!" laugh. It's not the giggling squeal of real amusement (which she also does regularly), but rather the noise of a kid who's trying to amuse everyone else and encouraging them to laugh. It's pretty hilarious, so it works well.

Hm. You know, it's interesting -- I used to have to force myself to shift from WP stuff to other matters. Now I have to remind myself to mention WP most of the time. Another sign of healing, I guess.

Nonetheless, there are days and times and reasons when I need prayers, and all in all, we all need them much of the time, I suspect. So thanks, SS. A bunch.

I struggle to know how to say things.

J,
There really is someone there. When I was 17 I wondered. I knelt down, I asked him if he was really there. I did it daily for quite some time. The day came when he filled my heart with an answer. I have been speakin to him, and he filling my heart ever since. Things have happened to me, there are stories I can tell.

Simple ordinary things that can't be explained in any rational way. Help when I needed help, many times over.

I trust God, and I am trying to live so he can trust me. Perhaps I am making progress, I seem to be, but it comes slowly. He is patient.

Your heart wants to be happy, and you are doing as well as you know how to do. I have to think that is good. There were times when you did not do as well as you knew to do, and you seem to regret those. I believe that is good also.

It is a great pleasure to hear about your daughter. Thank you for sharing...........

We have 8 - 4 and 4. I love them, and they are a great joy to me. It is both good and bad, both joy and sorrow. I would hate to do this without the help of someone that knows everything. I feel I have that help, and I recommend it to you.

Often relationships take time, and this one has grown slowly. Sometimes I think he waters me and figures all he got for his trouble was a mud puddle. Perhaps sometimes he is happy with the growth, I hope so.

I think a lot of you - I know he does also. May you come to know that too.

SS