STTSI,

On the off chance that I have anything intelligent to offer you, I guess I need to ask a few questions.

One, why are you and W not talking to MIL now?

Two, why did her Dad just now inform your W about the reason for the divorce?

Three, what is MIL's feelings about you now, and has there been any expressions of regret for what she did to you, and REALLY to her own daughter? I find it odd that she has helped facilitate so much pain in her daughters life. That affair actually is hurting your W far more than you, but you don't realize that quite yet and her mother is the one that helped it happen.

Does MIL talk to your W at all?

Finally, what is your W's take on her mother's A and what it did to her Dad and the marriage?

Don't answer if you don't feel like it, but it seems to me the issues here are not so much about you but her parents. I could understand why you wouldn't want to be associated with this family. Does your W understand this now?

Must go, but I do look forward to hearing from you.

God Bless,

JL

JL- It is me STTSI on my W's computer with her sitting here next to me. Answers to your questions:

One, why are you and W not talking to MIL now?

We are not talking to her because she has done nothing to end the affair or support our M. While W was in the fog and going with the A, I would talk to MIL and everything I ever told her went straight to W. All MIL has done over the last year is stab me in the back at every chance she got. MIL has not yet said she supports our recovery. Since we are trying to surround ourselves with PRO marriage people, she is not in our lives at this point.

Two, why did her Dad just now inform your W about the reason for the divorce?

W has never really had much of a relationship with her real dad. Her parents Dv when she was young and mom always talked about how bad he was. In the last 5 years or so he has tried to enter her life again and she is reluctant but is trying to let him in. Since the end of the A I think W has realized the her dad isn't the jerk he was made out to be. They have had some great conversations lately and W has said that she is really happy to have a relationship with him again. Anyway, I digress.... W asked her dad many questions about her childhood the other day and infidelity was one of them. Dad said that mom had an A and then filed for Dv shortly after that. Notice a pattern???? So I guess that is why her dad jut now said that. However, her mom said she left him because he was physically abusive. Since we are not talking to her mom, we have no way to verify his story over hers. I guess we ultimately left to make up our own minds about what really happened since I don't think one will ever agree with the others story since they seem to implicate the other.

Three, what is MIL's feelings about you now, and has there been any expressions of regret for what she did to you, and REALLY to her own daughter? I find it odd that she has helped facilitate so much pain in her daughters life. That affair actually is hurting your W far more than you, but you don't realize that quite yet and her mother is the one that helped it happen.


Wow big question here, I'll try to be short.

Three, what is MIL's feelings about you now
I don't know what MIL thinks of me and frankly I don't care. As of a few months ago she was still spreading lies about me to make W look better and me look bad. I think she still doesn't like me or want W and I together. However, she will eventually learn to put up with me in order to have a relationship with her daughter.

and has there been any expressions of regret for what she did to you, and REALLY to her own daughter?

She has exressed regret but not specifically for supporting the A, only for being caught lying. My opinion here, but I don't think she sees anything wrong with her support of the A.

I find it odd that she has helped facilitate so much pain in her daughters life. That affair actually is hurting your W far more than you, but you don't realize that quite yet and her mother is the one that helped it happen.

The mind of my MIL will always be a mystery to me... Can you please clarify what you mean by the second sentance here? I don't quite understand. Yes I know the A hurts my W, I can only imagine the hurt she must feel learning that the woman she has always looked up to is not the perfect mom she thought, learning that her dad is not the abusive jerk she was told. W's world is changing fast and she is struggling to keep up.

Does MIL talk to your W at all?
Very seldom over email. Mostly jokes or things about others, light stuff. As far as I know, nothing about W and I, MIL and I, OM or the A.

Finally, what is your W's take on her mother's A and what it did to her Dad and the marriage?

First off, I would like to clarify what I said before. MIL has not admitted any A, FIL said that is what happened and we have not talked toMIL about it. We don't know if it was a EA or a PA or what. As far as her take on it, she doesn't know to much about it and is still trying to digest the news and confirm it.

I could understand why you wouldn't want to be associated with this family. Does your W understand this now?

It is not that I don't want to be associated with them. I just despise dishonesty. If MIL is willing to apologise for her part in the continuation of the A and her lies to me, then I will consider a relationship with her on a limited basis. It will never be like what I had before with MIL. W says she has understood my feelings since we started recovery. However our lack of relationship with MIL does hurt W and I because she still wants to have a relationship with her mom.

TMCM or Jaurez or whatever you call yourself these days-

Glad the steroids are in name only. If your W had to put up with steroids and a guy with idenity crisis... Wow I would feel sorry for her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

BTW- W POJA's this post <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

STTSI,

The comment about your W's pain, was really straight forward. Having the A has hurt her in many ways. I do recall her posts here, and she was a lady in a fair amount of pain about what she had done. I don't think she was completely out of withdrawal and she was in pain.

I cannot imagine that your W is very proud of herself, or that she feels real good about herself. I can however imagine that if she has a conscience at all, and I believe she does, that she deeply regrets hurting you, and does feel alot of guilt.

And what you don't know yet, and what she may not realize yet, is that she will always remember the "look" on your face when you found out. The look on your face as you struggled to understand that your marriage had been a lie, and the look on your face just a few days ago, when you realized that it only took days following your marriage for the affair to start.

She will remember, trust me. She will be hurt far worse by what she did than you will be in the long run, AND HER MOTHER HELPED HER DO THIS TO HERSELF.
Her mother hurt her deeply, and yes the lies to cover up things are not helping your W are they?

I am guessing as you and your W are, but I suspect your MIL has been dealing, backstepping and filling to cover up her lies from the affair she had. I think after all of this time she has built a pretty good wall.

But, let me ask you two something is your MIL a happy woman? Does she enjoy life? That is a price that a WS can pay, if they don't honestly face what they have done.

STTSI, what you and your W may not know yet, is that you need each other more than either of you realize. Your W, I think, is going to need you to help her recover from what she has done, or she will pay a price in having to wall off a part of her heart for the rest of her life. I suspect her mother did that.

You need your W, to heal, and yes as she changes into a mature woman via this experience, she may very well become the woman of your true dreams. She may and very likely will become someone you can trust and depend on. IF she does, she will do you a huge amount of good. You will learn that people can change when they want to. You will learn that another chance is often a good thing to give another person. And you will learn that the best way to protect your heart is to open it up, and not close it as is our natural instinct.

So, within both of you are the seeds to a life time of hurt and withdrawal of part of yourself, and the seeds of a open and loving life.

Sorry for the speech, but I hope that you can see how much your W's mother has indeed hurt her, by helping her have an affair.

The options for the rest of your life's rest with one another, but I suspect, that with honesty, openness, you two may well develop a marriage unlike anything you have had before.

I will say this, I for one have not really ever felt that redoing marriage vows was such a great thing. I doubt my W and I would ever do that. But, in your case I think it will be a NECESSARY thing, and when you two do, both of you will really really know what those vows mean and what it took to get there. You two will have EARNED your marriage.

Must go. Keep talking and POJA'ing.

God Bless,

JL

JL- Got your response, thank you. I am realy, really tired now so I will respond tomorrow.

Goodnight,

JL- I agree with you that her mom has hurt W a lot! In fact I would say the hurt MIL has inflicted on W and siblings is far worse than the hurt MIL inflicted on me. I think MIL raised her children not to care about anothers feelings and to make themselves happy at all costs. MIL raised her children that if you aren't happy, you can always leave and start over again later. I think the hurt she has inflicted on her children by not properly raising them is far worse than what she has done to me.

I would agree, JL, that if it is true that MIL did have an affair, then she HAS done an excellent job of covering it up over the years. That would also explain how and why she did such an excellent job of covering for W with her affair. Even after W admitted to her family that she had an affair and that I wasn't lying, MIL still tried to cover it up and lie to protect her daughter.

Is MIL happy? I don't know for sure, but on the surface I would say yes. Deep down on the inside, I would say no. That is just my opinion however.

STTSI, what you and your W may not know yet, is that you need each other more than either of you realize. Your W, I think, is going to need you to help her recover from what she has done, or she will pay a price in having to wall off a part of her heart for the rest of her life. I suspect her mother did that.

I think this paragraph is very true. I agree that we both need eachother, that is why I am still here. I guess deep down inside, I do think W and I can recover from this and have a wonderful M and I think she can be the W I have been looking for. I just don't know how long I can wait for that to happen. I don't want to sound weak or whiney, but I have been trying to rebuild a marriage that never really started. W has lied to me for years before we married. SO I guess I am trying to get back to what we had years ago; honesty, openness and happiness.

And you will learn that the best way to protect your heart is to open it up, and not close it as is our natural instinct.

This is the part I struggle with. I have never really had an open heart, just an open mind. I closed off my heart years ago in an effort to protect myself, this is one of the things I am struggling with.

Sorry for the speech, but I hope that you can see how much your W's mother has indeed hurt her, by helping her have an affair.

Don't worry, it wasn't taken as a speech. Anyway, we all need to be lectured from our elders on occasion. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> But like I said before, I agree that MIL has hurt W far more than she has hurt me. The wounds inflicted on me were mere scratches that a band aid will heal, the wounds inflicted on W run far deeper and will take years to heal and may still leave a scar. That is waht has me so sad. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

W and I have talked about renewing our vows in severl years. I agree that when we do, they will mean so much more than when we said them just last year.

Thanks to all of you for your help and advice. I think W also wants to respond.

I wanted to reply to some of the things that have been said here.

First, thank you to all for your replies to H. I appreciate (and I think he does too) the support and advice that he can get here. Everyone here has gone through similar things, so you all can give better advice than those who haven't been through infidelity.

JL - I cannot imagine that your W is very proud of herself, or that she feels real good about herself. I can however imagine that if she has a conscience at all, and I believe she does, that she deeply regrets hurting you, and does feel alot of guilt.

Guilt? I have more guilt than I ever thought possible. I am NOT proud of myself or what I have done to my life and the lives of those around me. "I'm sorry" isn't something that H wants to hear. H wants to see changes instead. Yes, I am sorry for the pain that I have caused everyone.

And what you don't know yet, and what she may not realize yet, is that she will always remember the "look" on your face when you found out. The look on your face as you struggled to understand that your marriage had been a lie, and the look on your face just a few days ago, when you realized that it only took days following your marriage for the affair to start.

H finally told me the other day when exactly he found out about the A. He didn't confront me right away about it, so I will NEVER know the look on his face when he found out about the A. Yes, the other stuff, I will always remember the looks on his face. That is sonething that I will have to live with for what I have done.

You need your W, to heal, and yes as she changes into a mature woman via this experience, she may very well become the woman of your true dreams. She may and very likely will become someone you can trust and depend on. IF she does, she will do you a huge amount of good. You will learn that people can change when they want to. You will learn that another chance is often a good thing to give another person.

But how many chances does he give me? He asks how long he should wait around? I tell him that is NOT something that I can answer. Only he can.

2long - When, or if, I do, I want 2 be "safe enough" 2 my W that she'll be willing and able 2 volunteer information without worry that I'll fly off the handle.

This is something that is hard for me. Like H said, he has NEVER once raised his hand to me. LB though, sure we do that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Anyway, H and I were talking about this the other night and I finally realized something. Safety isn't just from H, it is from me as well. Safety from me being emotionally destructive to myself. I have volunteered some information to H the last couple days, but I finally feel safe from myself. I know that when I tell him the information, that I am safe from being destructive to myself. I believe that is where a large portion of my safety concern is.

JL, STTSI said: I think the hurt she has inflicted on her children by not properly raising them is far worse than what she has done to me.

This is something that I struggle with. I NEVER thought that my mom did a poor job rasing us children. Until the A and the things that I was doing, and the things that my parents wern't doing, I could NEVER think anything poorly of my Mom. After the A and H and I talked about it, I can see that there were things that she could have done differently to raise me (and probably my brothers too). BUT, What is done in the past is done in the past, and I cannot change the past and how we were raised. All that I can do is make sure that if H and I ever have children, that we don't make the same mistakes that she did.

Is MIL happy? I don't know for sure, but on the surface I would say yes. Deep down on the inside, I would say no.

I can tell you that the times that I talked to my mom b4 H and I got back together, she has told me that she is not happy with her life either. She had repeatedly apologized for the mistakes that she had made in her life. I know that she is happy with her H now, but I think that there are too many things in HER past that are keeping her from being truly happy in life. JMHO though.

JL - And you will learn that the best way to protect your heart is to open it up, and not close it as is our natural instinct.

This is difficult for us. H has always had an open mind (like he said) but he closed off his heart a long time ago to protect it from being hurt. He finally opened up his heart to me when we got married and then the A started. He closed off his heart immediatley again. I think that he is afraid to open up his heart b/c if he doesn't, then anything else I say or do can't hurt him as bad.

Sorry for the speech, but I hope that you can see how much your W's mother has indeed hurt her, by helping her have an affair.

Don't worry, it wasn't taken as a speech. Anyway, we all need to be lectured from our elders on occasion. But like I said before, I agree that MIL has hurt W far more than she has hurt me. The wounds inflicted on me were mere scratches that a band aid will heal, the wounds inflicted on W run far deeper and will take years to heal and may still leave a scar. That is waht has me so sad.

H and I talked about this for a while the other day. At first I couldn't understand what the intention of the statement was. After H and I talked about it for a while, I was able to understand and agree with what was said. Like I said earlier, I NEVER could think anything bad of my Mother, so this is hard for me. But, I do understand how her actions have hurt me. Every day I am thinking about things that she has said to either myself or my brothers and how much they have hurt (any of us). I don't know if she would agree that the statements that were made were destructive in any way - but looking back on it, I am able to see it now.

W and I have talked about renewing our vows in severl years. I agree that when we do, they will mean so much more than when we said them just last year.

At least this time, we (I) would know the true meaning and understanding of what was being said. We would know what it takes to make it work. How to make it work. It will be much better!!

I am glad that I got the opportunity to reply to this post. Thank you all again for the advice and support that you have given H.

~Mrs. STTSI

I'm,

I hope you understand something. This is NOT so much to bash your Mother, actually it isn't at all.

But, what I wanted STTSI and you to think about is that although she would say her intentions were well meaning, the affect of how you were raised is showing. Given that your mother helped hide and vacilitate your affair, my guess is that your Dad's story is probably true. Just a guess on my part.

The purpose of my comments however, isn't to shift blame to your mother, nor to vilify her. It was for STTSI to see the influences he is dealing with and the issues you are bringing to the table.

I must admit to you that I cannot understand why your married STTSI if you were lying to him years before the marriage, and clearly thought little enough of him to have an affair on him a few weeks after marrying him. I am sure he is far more mystified than I.

I am hoping that you two have talked about this because it brings up fundamental questions about how you view marriage and its commitments, and what it means to value another human being.

STTSI deserves to be in a marriage where he CAN open his heart. You may not realize this but one of the most dramatic things that one sees on these boards is that when people do reconcile here, and they do the plans and the reading, and the WS has come back and honestly done their best to communicate and repair the damage, that the marriages are MUCH better. Why?

I think one of the main reasons is that both parties can finally open their hearts. That they have seen the worst in each other, and they have decided that there is enough good, and kindness in the relationship, that they can talk and communicate, and that leads to opening the heart. IF you think about it, this is what the concept of "radical honesty" and the POJA promote.

I know you two have a long way to go, and if there are more secrets please get them out to STTSI. He needs "radical honesty" from you and you need it for yourself. He has big decisions to make, and so do you. You have to decide if you are really committed and that means opening YOUR heart and being very honest with your H, and YES as you said with yourself.

I am glad to hear you two are indeed talking.

God Bless,

JL

STTSI-

I responded to your mail.

If you need me, I'll check it off and on today.

I will call tonight just let me know what time is good for you.

JL- Thanks for your responses. W just dropped another bombshell last night, so I am not in a typing mood. Sorry. I am sure she doesn't want it at MB but if you email me I would love to get your opinion.

Kily- Thanks for your response, you can call anytime.

Thanks all,
STTSI

I know you two have a long way to go, and if there are more secrets please get them out to STTSI. He needs "radical honesty" from you and you need it for yourself. He has big decisions to make, and so do you. You have to decide if you are really committed and that means opening YOUR heart and being very honest with your H, and YES as you said with yourself.

JL - I am at work and thought I would reply to this. I was honest with H last night. Almost feel bad for how honest, not because honesty isn't good, (because I KNOW that it is), but because I know what I said hurt him terribly. I couldn't keep lying to him. Now that my truth is out, I feel better (if that's possible ??) but I know that I only hurt H more than he already was.

Thank you to all for the support for my H. He needs support from friends. Thank you H for not sharing the information on MB, thank you for respecting my privacy.

~A very ashamed W.

<small>[ August 25, 2003, 06:24 PM: Message edited by: imready2try ]</small>

A little more than one week later I felt I should give you all an update...

W and I are doing much better, we still have our rough days but they are getting fewer. I think now that she was telling me these new truths in order to clean the slate so we can start fresh. I felt very upset because of these new truths and thought she was only doing this to further hurt me.

Anyway, just wanted to thank all of you who have been here for W and I while we struggle through the recovery process.

Thanks again!

STTSI:

I'm glad 2 hear it! Give my regards 2 Imready2try!

-ol' 2long

2Long, CoffeeMan, JL, Kily and all our other MB friends...

Thanks for all your support for my H and I. Sometimes in the middle of the difficult times it is hard to see the good that can come out of it ~ But that is what friends are for!!

So I just wanted to extend a big THANK YOU to all our friends here at MB for your support <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

It means a lot to us that we can come here for support from everyone (and get the occasional MB 2X4 when needed) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

So, Thank You Kindly from Mr. and Mrs. STTSI

Very, very happy to hear this news, the both of you are wonderful and I'm glad to hear things are better.

ALS