My W told me this morning that she's going 2 be seeing Rat Meat for the first time since November 2002 (that was 200*1*!!!, not 2002, major edit!!!) at his work tomorrow.

Well, I just dropped her off at the airport. She's on her way.

She said she wouldn't be alone with him anywhere that would be inappropriate. That she and he don't want another "relationship", but it's clear that "friendship" doesn't mean the same thing 2 her still.

She says she understands that this has hurt me all these years, and she doesn't want 2 do that anymore. I believe her sincerity, even though I recognize some lingering signs of confusion and misplaced pride in her thinking.

I told her that I could tell that things have improved between us drammatically over the past 2 months, and she agreed. I told her that I trust her, and that this is where "if you love something, set it free" comes in2 play. I can't and I won't tell her what 2 do. I also told her that I not only don't trust RM, I can't trust him. I don't hate him, but I certainly don't like him either. I have no respect for him and I don't believe that he has any integrity whatsoever. She just nodded through that. I told her that I don't believe that I should have 2 tolerate him because he's never shown me the slightest sign of consideration. She said that I'd be surprised at how much consideration he DOES give me. I just replied that if he did care about my feelings, he would have said "no" 2 having an affair with her all these years.

She has 2 make her own decisions. I believe that she believes she's doing the right thing, but she's still somewhat confused and I worry a little that she'll get "sucked right back in2 the A" by just seeing him again after all this time. She doesn't think so, and I have 2 let her decide what she wants. I told her that I know that she's told him things about me that are none of his business and don't reflect who I am very well, just like the stories I've heard about Mrs Meat don't impress me as likely 2 be very accurate. She didn't seem 2 know what I meant, so I brought up the email from March 2002. And she said that what she told him about me "was true then", but I countered that even if it were true it was none of his business. I suppose I could have brought up her emails 2 him 2 months ago, but I didn't. Should I?

It was kind of interesting how the meeting was brought up. Remember when she was away last time and we had the long talk on the phone? Well, she was worried that her new job would ask her 2 contact RM as one of the people knowledgeable about the work she'll be doing with them. Well, they didn't, but they did recommend she talk 2 someone else at his work. She said that she decided 2 come home when she did last time, but that she could have changed her flight and gone there before leaving the field for home last time. And it sounds like she knew that she'd be talking 2 him if she did meet "someone at [his work]." So, on the one hand I'm a little bugged that she knew about this meeting 2morrow a 2ple weeks ago, but only told me today. And on the other hand I'm delighted she 2k a risk and told me before the fact rather than after, when she could have kept it secret (though I doubt she'd have been successful for long).

After our meeting with the lawyers, mold people, insurance company, and contractors last Friday, she has said several times that she wants 2 stay home and get our house back together. We could use the settlement money 2 pay ourselves (her, D, and her former coworker) 2 remove and catalog all the trim elements in the house if it looks like we have 2 remove ALL the plaster in the whole building so that the mold can be "remediated" (and so far, it does look like that). And so she doesn't think she should have taken this new job. And now, she's planning on trying to talk RM in2 taking it over, during the meeting with him 2morrow. Strange, huh?

She doesn't want 2 "have 2 lie 2" me anymore, so she's glad she told me about the meeting. I'm not ac2ally sure what I should do at this point. Well, really I am. Like I told her, when we were 2gether talking about it, I was okay with her seeing him (though I don't believe it is necessary). She would have some explaining 2 do if she told her new job that she couldn't meet with him. I can accept that it's difficult for her. So the right thing for me 2 do is 2 do nothing, and let her make her decisions for herself. But now that she's left, my mind is starting 2 wander a bit. I'll keep myself distracted as much as I can, though. When she gets back on Thursday night, I'll have already left for central Oregon for the weekend. She leaves for our out of state house on Friday, comes back the 2nd. I get home from Oregon the 1st, so I won't see her again until 2sday next week.

The way I look at it right now is that our recovery is our process. It's going 2 take some time and there will be major hiccups for a while. Like this one. Neither one of us is going 2 get 2 "script" our recovery OUR way. We're going 2 have 2 make adjustments 2 both of our desires and expectations of each other. Neither one of us is going 2 get their own way from now on. This is a delicate time for us, and I think it's been invaluable the progress we've made recently, because I truly do love her and she shows me that she does love me 2. But I don't dislike myself either, and there are some things that I simply should not and cannot compromise. Again, I think we're in a process, and even if she can't agree with my viewpoint on the "friendship" thing now, it's not clear that she won't sometime down the road.

Time will tell,
-2long

<small>[ August 24, 2003, 08:55 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

She just called me from her first stop. Has 2 change planes there.

I'm glad she called.

-2long

dear 2,
please forgive me but i feel the need to but into your business. i've followed most of your latest threads and must say that though i find your civility and understanding comendable, i can't understand your willingness to leave loose ends and incomplete elements out there to sort themselves out. i mean what part of NO CONTACT does your W have trouble understanding?

further, i can't help but feel that this sophisticated and hands off approach you're taking toward your wife's behavior and attitude is going to wind up biting you in the @ss! if for no other reason that you will just have to feel somewhat resentful of her disregard of your feelings in this matter.

"he has shown regard for your feeling," indeed!? why would she defend him instead of understanding how she is making you feel?

sorry...but from the perspective of this outsider looking in, your W is more than just out of bounds...she is acting selfishly and with no due regard or respect for you, her marriage or your feelings.

coach

Coach:

All true. Again, though, the 2uestion is: What should I do?

I could certainly be demanding and maybe even get somewhere in the process. I don't think that will serve me and our family very well, though.

During the past 2ple of months, my W has made great strides back 2 our marriage. I will cheerfully take credit for a lot of that happening, because the simple fact is that I have backed off so far on the LBs that there simply is no "handle" for her 2 blame me about, should she decide 2 try 2 villify me in any way. I think I posted the other day on the other thread (but I'll have 2 check, I can't remember) that my W ac2ally referred 2 me as "my husband" 2ice on Friday. I will have 2 cogitate, but I think the last time was over 12 years ago. It's always been "spouse" at best up until now. I didn't demand anything, didn't even ask her 2 use the term, though we did have a discussion about it several months ago.

Now, I could certainly put my foot down and start demanding she not see RM 2morrow (or ever). But what would that get me? I might even get NC, but I'd rather she offered it up of her own accord (but she drives a CRV).

Now, all this is NOT 2 say I'm a saint and can live like this 4ever. But like wise ol' farts like JL and SS have told me from the beginning, my W's A lasted a lot longer than most, and so it's going 2 take her a lot longer than most 2 come out of the fog. I think she's doing it, but I still can't always tell whether I can wait much longer while it clears. I think I can, but sometimes I think "boy, wouldn't it be nice 2 just wipe the slate clean and start over?" I have told her on more than one occasion that what she should have done 12 years ago, rather than have an A, was TELL ME about the friendship getting out of hand and DV me. That way I could have started ALL over again. Heck, if I'd been so inclined, I could have even had a 2nd family by now... ...but then I think of the on I have, and I would rather not swap them out at this point in time.

Still don't know which way this is going 2 go. My W has every right 2 make her own choices... ...but so do I, and she's starting 2 realize that.

-2long

2long,

It's not fun to hear about contact, progress or no progress. But as you point out, there has been progress made - hopefully any contact now will only help to highlight the fact that she "can't go back" to RM - it's done, over, finito, gonzo, deep-sixed, burried, exhausted, obliterated... you get the idea!

Yeah, it'd be interesting... What can they possibly say to each other at this point, really? It's pretty clear she ain't going anywhere - so let that hang over RM's head... I personally can't fathom how such an ackward and painful relationship can be anything but that: ackward and painful. The things that made it seemingly "good" in its early, early days are long since over.

If she never "renounces" RM, are you going to feel something lacking? Is it enough for you to know that she refused to "give you up", over him? Hard questions. Maybe some of the inputs for them will trickle in over the next while.

I am blown away with her statement that you would be surprised how much consideration Rat Meat has shown for you over the years. This is a man that has been having sex with your wife behind your back for years and helping her lie to you, put your health at risk and betray her committment to you and your marriage. I am sorry but your wife would have to still be in a fog to make such an outlandish and hurtful comment to you. The fact that she stands up for this guy is unbelievable. This statement alone is such an insult. Her other statment after she finally tells you she is going to see rat meat again and she is tired of being forced to lie you in the past. Who forced her to lie to you? This was all her choice to lie and cheat on you. How can anyone in their right mind can tell their husband that you would be surprised how much consideration my lover has for you?
It seems clear her failure to renounce him abiding in such a betrayal to you is a horrible sign and tells me she is still committed to him in some way. I think she is simply unable to see how she continually disrespects you this way. I feel for you because it sure sounds like this is not over for you.

You do get to make your own choices.

We all tell you lots of stuff, cause we all have an opinion.

You get to choose what you will do, you, all by yourself. Except that you will be heavily influnced by the things your W does in the next little while. Oh heck, even then you will choose.

It's nice to know she called you H again. You say that you didn't even bring it up except for a few months ago. See how important communication is, you discussed it a few months ago, and she remembered it was important to you and did it.

Now, that should help you to talk about other things you care about and to keep working on it in the future.

Gee whiz, I think you are doing pretty good now. I do worry about contact, just like you do. I hope she doesn't take up calling you spouse again for 6 months. Maybe contact will make her sick like it does some who finally see what they have in a loyal and loving spouse, and I think you qualify there.

Mostly I offer support, and love, and I continue to pray for both of you. You'll just have to put up with me.

SS

J.R.

Good 2 hear from you, man!

"If she never "renounces" RM, are you going to feel something lacking?"

If I understand your 2uestion here, I think the answer is a resounding YES. If I've learned anything over the past 19 months (gee, I've said that a lot, haven't I?), it's that I can tell when something's lacking like I never could, or never wanted 2 be able 2 before.

"Is it enough for you to know that she refused to "give you up", over him?"

Up until now, yes. For a while longer, still, 2. But not indefinitely. Growth must continue. Growth on the part of both of us.

"Hard questions. Maybe some of the inputs for them will trickle in over the next while."

I think they will, because they have been.

Thanks for the post, J.R.

-ol' 2long.

Bryanp:

"I am sorry but your wife would have to still be in a fog to make such an outlandish and hurtful comment to you."

She's still in a fog. No 2uestion about it. But there's also no 2uestion that things have changed, fundamentally, in her thinking in just the past 2 months. She admitted essentially such this morning.

"The fact that she stands up for this guy is unbelievable."

So much so that I have no difficultly laughing it off. She will 2, soon. That's my prediction.

"This statement alone is such an insult."

Forget the statement. RM himself is the insult. Her desire 2 keep his friendship is an insult. But is it permanent? I don't think so, or I wouldn't keep this up. Have I put up with it for ...2long? Probably in some's books. And sometimes I believe that's the case. But I'm still here. She's still here. We're growing and learning, more 2gether than otherwise lately. And it's cool.

"Who forced her to lie to you? This was all her choice to lie and cheat on you."

Absolutely. And she knows it and has admitted it.

"How can anyone in their right mind can tell their husband that you would be surprised how much consideration my lover has for you?"

The "right mind" remark is the key here. If the WS (or even the OP) did what they did in their right minds, there'd be absolutely no reason 2 try 2 recover the marriage, now would there?

"It seems clear her failure to renounce him abiding in such a betrayal to you is a horrible sign and tells me she is still committed to him in some way. I think she is simply unable to see how she continually disrespects you this way. I feel for you because it sure sounds like this is not over for you."

Thanks for your thoughts. I know for a certain that it's not over for me. Knowing that, knowing where *I* am, what I had 2 go through 2 get here... ...and knowing what she's yet 2 go through, 2 learn, 2 empathize with... ...all these give me renewed hope. Hope for our M. And even if our M doesn't survive, hope for us - her and me - as parents, as partners with a shared his2ry. I can go anywhere from "here" and find happiness now. I'm almost certain of that, finally.

regards,
-2long

Still:

"You do get to make your own choices."

And I sometimes believe I know how 2, 2! ;o)

"You get to choose what you will do, you, all by yourself. Except that you will be heavily influnced by the things your W does in the next little while. Oh heck, even then you will choose."

Yep. YOu know me, SS. I will be influenced by what my W says and does for some time yet. But not like before. Not ever like before. And that's cool, 2.

"It's nice to know she called you H again. You say that you didn't even bring it up except for a few months ago. See how important communication is, you discussed it a few months ago, and she remembered it was important to you and did it."

I think that was a huge step forward for her, SS. And it was made possible by me NOT demanding it or anything else from her. But you knew that would work best, didn't you?

"Now, that should help you to talk about other things you care about and to keep working on it in the future."

She called when she got 2 her hotel room. Very nice. Said ILY, and so did I. I wished her a good day 2morrow, and the next 3 days on her job. She thanked me.

"Gee whiz, I think you are doing pretty good now. I do worry about contact, just like you do. I hope she doesn't take up calling you spouse again for 6 months. Maybe contact will make her sick like it does some who finally see what they have in a loyal and loving spouse, and I think you qualify there."

I sure hope so!!! ;o) I think she may need "closure" on her own terms. Heck, what am I saying? Of course she does. I have no idea whether that's what she's seeing him for, because it's not the reason for the meeting (which is a legit work-related one, however stretched). But it's not up 2 me. What's up 2 me is what I do about what happens afterward. Since I don't have any clue what might happen, it does me no good 2 fret over it. Heck, she might jump in the sack with him, on the one extreme. On the other, though, she might puke in his lap on sight. I can hope, can't I? ;oD

"Mostly I offer support, and love, and I continue to pray for both of you. You'll just have to put up with me."

DArn!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> But I think I can. Next lunch at that Chinese place is on me. Maybe someday I can bring my W with me!

-ol' 2long

We went and saw a movie 2gether alone yesterday. It was very cool. Oh yeah, and we saw it after going out 2 dinner alone 2gether for the 2nd day in a row (and day before yes2rday, we went 2 LUNCH 2gether alone, 2!).

Movie was "Whale Rider." If you haven't seen it, take the day off and go. It was that good.

-2long

<small>[ August 25, 2003, 12:43 AM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

We saw American Wedding last night...now THAT'S good. Liquid beverage spewing out your nose good. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Kind of made me hungry for truffles...NOT!

2long...I think your analysis on her comment is right on. She's losing/lost respect for RM, but she still isn't ready to take on just how disrespectful and hurtful her actions were. To say that RM was respectful to you, paints a picture in her eyes that isn't quite as ugly as the truth. I believe I told my H many times that OM cared as much about H's feelings as I did. Yea...we cared so much we put him through the shredder, then glued him back together just so we could do it again. WS's use words to try to make everything different than it really is...but actions are what really define us.

And now it's off to our first day of PRESCHOOL!! Am I supposed to cry? <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> I think I'll save that for the first day of real school.

h4f:

It's good 2 hear your take on this. Thanks!

It's interesting how I'm feeling this morning about the upcoming meeting between them. Like I said, there's nothing I can do about it, so there's no reason 2 worry over things I can't effect... ...but it was still a bit hard 2 get more than about 5 hours sleep last night.

I'll probably continue 2 hang on the wise words of the sages here for some time 2 come. It still helps 2 sustain me a bit when the mind starts wandering like it tries 2 do. Not like before, though. Overall, I'm still very much more at ease over this than I have been in the recent past.

I think a lot of that has 2 do with the progress SHE has made, not just my own. Because although "self protection mode" has me considering the full range of possibilities for the meeting 2day (above, in post 2 SS), the fact is that she's far more likely 2 do something in between. She may hug him, probably will get a bit teary-eyed over EVERYTHING that's happened, but she just as likely will get sick 2 her stomach over it. Beyond that speculation, though, I don't care 2 tread.

I still think she needs 2 end this HER way, just like I very much would like it 2 end MY way.

...ooops, gotta take my son 2 school. Post back again in a few.

-2long

Son's off 2 school!

Anyway, like I said, it's up 2 her 2 end this her way. And like your H couldn't do anything 2 coerce you in2 making "right" decisions, I can't make my W do things I expect of her either.

I just thought of something I said on here a year or so ago, about WS' "arrogance." It seemed 2 me at the time (and does for many BSs in this process) that my W was arrogant 2 believe that she could keep her friendship with RM after what "they'd done" 2 our M all those years. That it seemed that she simply expected me 2 wait for her 2 decide what she wanted, that I didn't have a choice or my choices don't matter. Like, what would she do if I were 2 have decided, somewhere along the way, 2 just quit and leave the M? Now, I realize that the WSs aren't arrogant, they're just fogged. I was mistaking malice for s2pidity.

If anything, we BSs get a little arrogant, maybe even a lot arrogant. Since our "personal recovery" is sounded off mainly other BSs on this and similar 4ums, we all 2 easily forget the contributions we made 2 the breakup of our own Ms.

This really is a process that everyone who's been subjected 2 infidelity in whatever form from whichever side, must go through for themselves in order 2 understand it at all. And because it's a process, there's no clearcut right or wrong answer while we're slogging through it. Except 2 be patient, and LEARN, perhaps.

And so, while there have "certainly" been times or even hurtful statements that could easily have been the straw that perhaps "should have" broken the camel's back, the fact that the camel is not only still standing but is better able 2 support additional straws if need be, is the most important thing here.

And don't call me a camel! ...what are you "humps" laughing at?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-2long

I was wondering 2 ...

How would you define your boundaries about this contact?

If you HAD TO write out a "legal boundaries" contract about continued contact with RM .... what would it say?

~~~~~~~~~~~ something like ????

> OK to accept RM's calls, but not more than 2 times a week.

> Not OK to call RM unless calling from work phone.

> OK to write unlimited number of emails, each no longer than 100 words per message.

> Not OK to say "I miss you" or "I love you" in any written materiasls.

> OK to meet in person, not more than one time per fiscal quarter, but must maintain a personal bubble distance of 3 feet at all times, except when shaking hands, a 30 second time slot of 2 feet will be allowed.

> No gift exchanges, except for Christmas and Birthdays. Gifts to be either handmade or less than $20 value ($25 Canadian)

~~~~~~~~~

This was (sort-a) meant to be funny ..... but, what the heck ARE your boundaries about this?

You are allowed to have an opinion about what you will and will not tolerate, because you've learned that some things are detrimental to your well-being .... and thus should not be tolerated.

Haven't you been fascinated recently reading from so many WS's here on MB ..... that their fear is their BS will "refuse to fight for me" !!!

I donno .... sometimes I think you are way too wishy washy .... and I say that in a loving sisterly way. Is this "tolerating RM" really a strength? Or is this really your fear of claiming your rightful boundaries .... because your W won't accept your boundaries, and you fear this means she doesn't love you???????
Only you know, I sure don't.

I was pretty tough on you here.
Pep

<small>[ August 25, 2003, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Pepper:

"This was (sort-a) meant to be funny ..... but, what the heck ARE your boundaries about this?"

Simply stated: No Rat Meat. No more. Never again. My W would have fired anybody else for what he did on her previous job, and it's ridiculous that she'd consider using him on this job, OR recommending him as her replacement.

"Haven't you been fascinated recently reading from so many WS's here on MB ..... that their fear is their BS will "refuse to fight for me" !!!"

Yes I have. And I've thought, many times, about whether my W would be one of these. But I'm pretty sure she isn't.

"I donno .... sometimes I think you are way too wishy washy .... and I say that in a loving sisterly way. Is this "tolerating RM" really a strength? Or is this really your fear of claiming your rightful boundaries .... because your W won't accept your boundaries, and you fear this means she doesn't love you???????"

For much of the past 19 months, I think the latter. But even the wishy-washiness, the "tolerating RM" is a perception commonly expressed here, not just by you, that is based in impatience. My "strength" is in knowing that patience WORKS, patience and learning that is. Ultimatums DO NOT WORK. But having said THAT, I have been thinking a lot about what my reaction might be 2 what her actions might have been at this meeting, which is probably going on right now. Recognizing as I do this that it's counterproductive 2 fret over my imaginings, I really do think that 2day will be a major 2rning point for me, because I will learn whether my W is truly able 2 let go of the fantasy relationship or whether she's stuck in it for the forseeable fu2re. If the former, we've got a lot of good work we can do. If the latter, then I've had enough.

Am I afraid that she doesn't love me? A short while ago, I think I probably was. Now? I think she does love me. Is it enough 2 sustain our M? Not anymore, with RM in the pic2re. I'm serious.

I thought about sending an email 2 RM, but decided that, at best, it might come across like TMD's email from his OWH sounded, and he might read it similarly. Or not. See? That's the thing. I don't want 2 so much as acknowledge RM's EXISTENCE, let alone his influence on my W or our family, and probably no matter what I say it could be misconstrued by a foggy-brained recipient.

But we'll see what happens when my W calls about the meeting.

-2long

Well, personally, I found TMD's OWH's letter very heartwarming. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I admire THAT guy .... and it makes TMD look like a whiney worm in comparison. (I am Not calling TMD a whiney worm, but stating that when holding these two men up for comparison, the strength and manliness of one far outweighs the other..... FAR)

Please do not confuse "ultimatum" with stating a clear and concise personal boundary.

I did not say ultimatum.

Pep

Pepper:

I admired TMD's OWH 2. I'm just not sure he fully appreciated the guy's email, though he seems 2 have said he did.

For me, there is simply only one thing that RM could possibly do for me or my W that would earn any kind of respect from me whatsoever. And that is a promise of NC. My W still thinks that's a silly requirement, and so if I tell RM that (I already have told my W that), would he simply rationalize that I'm somehow 2 weak 2 speak for myself because I'm just following some MB formula? I don't know.

Would YOU recommend I compose and send such an email? All along, people have said I shouldn't.

-2long

I am not expressing myself clearly ... I can tell because I have given you a wrong impression....

I don't think you need to express anything to RM.... He's a toad. You don't want warts, do you?

I do think you need to express everything to your beloved wife. She needs to have a very clear idea and complete as possible understanding of you, where you're going, and what your needs are.

P

2L - Been away from MB for so long, I wasn't sure who I'd find when I returned.

I wrote a pretty long post to you detailing my many concerns over this thread. I then deleted it, because I figured, to be fair, I should re-read your post after I familiarized myself with your recent history to view everything in the proper context. I would like to be able to encourage you rather than unceremoniously slam what your wife is doing, which was pretty much the gist of my original post.

As you know, I, too, am dealing with the aftermath of a long-term affair, and I recognize the unique complications one must navigate when trying to recover from something like that. And while patience is a required virtue in circumstances like ours, equally vital is a clear and definite line in the sand, so no one misunderstands each others expectations. Some people talk boundaries, others ultimatums. It's probably somewhere in between. Whatever you want to call it, I think your wife has crossed it, especially if, as you said, "she's still somewhat confused."

I'll check in later with some more thoughts after I catch up on your recent history. Just know that I care about you and your family and your collective well-being and happiness.