double post

<small>[ August 28, 2003, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

I'm sorry. Divorce is difficult ... even a divorce you desire. I imagine it would seem like a death to one of your dreams. But, there are other good and great things in life besides being married. I have never been divorced.

I am sorry for your hurt.

Pep

Thanks Pep.

Only recently have I been able to live more comfortably with the notion that there are worse things than a failed marriage. I've found a lot of great things in my life in response to this.

However, I am very, very glad that I didn't divorce under these past circumstances:

1. The domestic violence incident
2. Discovery that I loved then-MM

First of all, those situations were much too emotionally charged to react properly to by divorcing. Also, the things I have learned about love since then (because of those circumstances) are valuable beyond description, and I doubt that I would have learned them in any other way.

So yeah, it's sad. But the hurt is in the past.

Pep and Termie, just grabbed Pep's current "Heck Thread" and this one and have tied them together in a bow! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Now, here's what I said when I grabbed the thread to bring it here,... (then I want you two to get this volley going again ...!)

I said I had been "splashing in the refreshing cerebral fountain Pep and Termie got a' going over in "Therapy Resistant WS! ie." ...and I had to get out my old Jung For Jungsters...itsa scratch and sniff board book!...I can sound like Forest Gump at times?


Been learning how to cough, lower my voice and look away when I explain my current quest for "authentic self"...was the "gist" of my pun this morning! What if that Authentic Dustkitty becomes something..."no longer useful" or compatible?

All that Love-Dove tails into this thread.

Authentic self? Is that the sum of what we are now, or what you find if you remove all the shiny scales of reflected identity? Is it going back to our roots, seeing what we would have been if allowed to grow without the self-inflected pruning...or is it accepting the scars and grafting armor?

Should you ever enter into marriage without either a full acceptance/knowlege of your [censored]...(authentic solid self <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )...because of the implied life-long commitment...or should we be telling those that marry that it will only be successful if both parties can appreciate the other's growth. As long as it is Authentic Growth, not fabricated of lies,(Et alii) which spring not from the Authentic but are the building blocks of Facades.

Let's just say I have three pages of notes in front of me. I offer you both cigars, (and sometimes they are just cigars.)

As I appealed before!...You both can't leave us hanging here with only "Reflected Identity"...You have to be the Blue Fairy(s) and make us real!

PS...just wanted to add that the real reason, this thread is being viewed so many times? not that it is so thought provoking! It is the way I "speld Ttherapy"..weird words are almost as good as sex for bringing them in!

<small>[ August 28, 2003, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: dustkitty ]</small>

Dust Pussycat...

I am gonna get back to you later, possibly tomorrow. I have a stack of work in front of me and a backache ... and 2OAK hurt my widdow feewings (not really) so I need to sulk and suck my thumb .... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Seriously, my bra is too tight ... do you think that is a good defense for being mean?

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>Seriously, my bra is too tight ... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, that explains your bra-lliance!, it's not cerebral, you should be cerebra-less.
And stop calling me a [censored]. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I'll wait quietly.

kitty,

Me too. I will post later on this. In short, I will say that the "authentic self" is connected to a childhood self...in a vague way I know this--I will try to give examples of the incidents of discovery, but can't guarantee anything...

The 3 personality states Parent, Adult and Child were also resonant with me in thinking about this...

I will read your post again and respond point by point to the extent I can. I think it's worthwhile and so far...I have been able to defend every belief I have...and it isn't just that they're all hard-earned. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by terminator:
<strong> In short, I will say that the "authentic self" is connected to a childhood self...in a vague way I know this--I will try to give examples of the incidents of discovery, but can't guarantee anything...

The 3 personality states Parent, Adult and Child were also resonant with me in thinking about this...
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Indeed, before I fell off, I did learn about the personality traits on the Turnip Truck!

And either my Adult self is listening to you explain your beliefs and now understanding, or it was the Child self that logged on before...(gotta hide the password from her!)...I am sure it was her when I reviewed some of my "mean as Pepperband" posts <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Me too. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Me, too tired? Or me too, my bra is too tight?

Rest ladies, you've been thinking your [censored] (authentic sweet selves)...off.

Well now that you mention it, I'm not wearing my favorite bra today... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Will post later for sure. I will drag in again the idea about immature selves seeking a mirror in another, Pep posted that from the Schnarch (sp??) book. I have ordered that book.

This is all very bizarre for me, the whole mirror image/twin thing...the odd coincidence that X-MM is a Gemini and I was a twin whose brother died in infancy. (My life has been one long series of traumas, many self-inflicted, I'll admit.) You tend to think of Jung in those circumstances...

Dustkitty and Pep and Terminator-

If we all agree that people who marry, especially people who marry young, might not all be self-aware and recognize their authentic self as opposed to facade self, or halfway self, or unexamined self... how do you believe people discover their authentic selves?

Do you believe people wake up one day and say - Oh, I haven't been my authentic me? and go out and start therapy? Can they get these realizations from a double dose of Dr. Phil?

How do people self-discover?

"No one is ready for marriage. Marriage makes you ready for marriage." .... Schnarch.

You can't have the skills until you find yourself in the midst of the crucible.

Self development is ongoing.

There is no peak of self authenticity and once you've reached it , you just sit on your self-aware butt and enjoy being your authentic self.

Today is a very busy day for me.

Youngest is at her highschool freshman orientation. (brings back the memories, doesn't it?)

I am teaching a small group seminar today.
. (after my regulat half day at my clinic)

And then .... tonight is my "Sweet Potato Queen" annual sleepover. My "girls" and I have an annual bash ... (known each other since grade school or middle school) .... where there is a ~no men and no kids~ party at my friends home in the desert .... considering we're all the same age .... we party like we did when we were in highschool..... only slower, and with more Motrin and less booze. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Those in the group who are foolish enough NOT to attend .... well, we pretty much gossip aboout them.... as they well know! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> We all have our birthdays in the summer ... and this is our once a year birthday party for ourselves. Gotta keep those girlfriend connections going until we're partying with our walkers! We all graduated highschool together in 1967 ... which was "The Summer Of Love" .... and we were in the San Francisco Bay area .... hippy daze relived .... well, a little bit relived.

Wish me luck!

See ya'll later ... I hope.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Great question sungirl...

Some people don't need to. They get "dressed" in an authentic self unconsciously, by parents and others who provide a source of reliable love.

For others, I think it takes emotional trauma, a make-or-break event. Similar to "hitting bottom" in AA parlance.

Note also that I believe people find God (authentically, in a way that makes them talk to Him daily, hourly) when they have been hurt like this. And then religion becomes more than standing there like a zombie on Sunday mornings with a hymnbook in your hand.

dustkitty, (or should I say soon-to-be-revealed-as-Authentic-dustkitty)

Finally I'm getting to your post. It contains signposts familiar from my journeys with H and X-MM...I'll go in order of appearance from your post:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What if that Authentic Dustkitty becomes something..."no longer useful" or compatible?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, that's the risk, isn't it!!!! Do you want to be useful to and compatible with someone else, or do you want to be yourself? I guess you are ready to face that..what happens is, you may be un-paired, or you will have to adjust your expectations about your pairing and its dynamics.

As I posted before, I got to this point with my H. I know (from personal experience and therapy) that his initial attraction to me was that I would be a dependent, childlike counterpart. He would be the parent. The more independent I became (and this was long before I began an affair), the more threatened he was. That was the source of marital conflict early on--and what could I do? Abandon my career? Never express opinions, thoughts, feelings if they were different from his? Allow him to parent as he was parented, without attempting to counterbalance it? I think having children was the turning point, as often happens, I understand. The act of parenting is a window into/display of authentic self. Now I have some strategies for minimizing overt conflict that work pretty well, but that isn't the way to do marriage.

I also got to this point with X-MM. At about year 3 or so in the 7-year affair, I began to be able to recognize clearly who he was...and how sad it was that he could not express himself or discuss his feelings. I couldn't live with that shutdown, silent person. That glum, tortured look on his face when we had to discuss uncomfortable things, or on sad events...and his immaturity when I ended the affair ("Go, if you have to...cut all ties." and "Does it have to be all or nothing?"). All that told me what I had suspected years earlier--that even if single, free and clear, this was not a suitable partner for me. For one thing, I was "useful" to him when I would meet his needs without demanding introspection, sharing about feelings. I could never tolerate that in a partner again--I will expect, at appropriate junctures in the relationship, a full accounting of feelings, needs, motives, thoughts, beliefs about all the things I think are important. And he is just not the man who can stand up to that, I don't think--I don't give it good odds. Hopefully, he will with his wife, but he will have to "crack wide open" and rebuild as an individual, is my take on it. So this was part of my letting go of him, well before the actual ending of the relationship.

So, kitty, my question to you would be: Do you think Dustdawg can get to his authentic self without "cracking wide open"? What are the signs of emergence of his authentic self, his sharing it with you?

At some point I had to do the reality check...about myself and both men. Clinically speaking, I recognize the similarites between H and X-MM: Same generation--set in their ways. Adept (many years of practice) at this coping mechanism and lack of introspection/talk about feelings. Both had previous marriages. In my H's case, no introspection on what went wrong (and I probed, somewhat inexpertly, early in the relationship and was, now naively I realize, satisfied with his answer that pretty much put all the blame on the wives). X-MM had no particular individual insight on his first marriage ending in divorce other than immaturity, no goals or direction--"you're a perfectly nice person, but why am I married to you?" is what he imagined himself saying to her.

I did love each of them. Memories of that is part of who I am. But love is not enough.

As Pep said, Authentic Self is the destination. As much as I like the metaphor "shiny scales of reflected identity", I don't think the reflections of identity in another are a superficial, removable thing! No, I think that reflection burns holes...

I believe that none of us knows what we would be if allowed to grow without self-inflicted pruning. That state is aging, not growing. Lots of people live an unexamined life...those people seem to have no need to concern themselves with Authentic Self if whatever self they have is working--and doesn't instigate or undergo disruption. ("Working" is of course a subjective thing.)

It is accepting the scars. Yes. But the trick is NOT to graft armor, I think. Or at least the kind of armor you think--self-protective, fearful armor...The scars are evidence of brokenness, which comes in many forms and can be healed. Being whole without that utterly passive, defensive, self-protective armor, to me, is the goal. The Biblical image of armor is, recall, always in reference to a deliberate confronting of sin and the armor is what you put on--what you get from God's word to respond to life and protect yourself from sin. (As opposed to protect yourself from bad things or hurts from other people.)

No, you should NEVER enter into marriage without full knowledge of self. I have known people contemplating marriage who considered this question vis-a-vis themselves and the intended. His answer was, "who I am at the core is not going to change from here on in." (This man was well-raised and well-nurtured, so he had both the opportunity without therapy and the awareness of what his authentic self was. Rare case.)

I think you're right about partners needing to appreciate the other's growth. To start out with the conscious understanding that everybody grows!! after and into adulthood!!! That's a must. But also, again, I think they have to have the same belief about what marriage is. The spiritual component of it--what God intended. Also they need to love God above all else. Then, they will have consistent guidance and motivation to conform. With that, each person's creativity and growth can flourish in the relationship.

But if people think they have no need to grow, that everything about them "works" or is as it's going to be forever, take it or leave it, and marriage is something they created between themselves and can re-invent its function and purpose according to their circumstances... well...that's when I think people drift apart (or further apart) and affairs happen.

If I've missed anything, let me know. Lunch is over...

<small>[ August 29, 2003, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: terminator ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by terminator:
<strong>
But if people think they have no need to grow, that everything about them "works" or is as it's going to be forever, take it or leave it, and marriage is something they created between themselves and can re-invent its function and purpose according to their circumstances... well...that's when I think people drift apart (or further apart) and affairs happen.

If I've missed anything, let me know. Lunch is over...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have used the rest of my ink cartridge printing this thread....and a few B&N gift certificates to update source materials, and good old graph paper and and an ink pen ....I am off for the weekend, to ponder. My goal?, to look at a few touchpoints of my more "stongly held" notions...a new, for the first time. Authentic just in it's self.

Blessings and Thanks ladies.

Best to you kitty, you're brave. I hope you can get Dustdawg to do the same things, but whether he does or not, the fact that you are doing it is fantastic. The old saying "you go girl" comes to mind.

Thanks dustkitty, sungirl and Pepperband--this was really interesting and very helpful to me...to answer these questions. I'm really impressed with depth of the questions you asked, and your answers as well.

This was very constructive, and I appreciate your treating me (a FWS) with such compassion and respect here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ August 29, 2003, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: dustkitty ]</small>

Darn, can't muti-task Termmmie!, hence the deleted post.... Please use this thread as a journal this weekend. Pep will be doing the "Yammie" thing and I am not taking my laptop, but will check-in often. (Sungirl, I am going to be wearin' da asbestos, also...only because us ol'wifeeeies can turn it up a notch, or two,or 44?)...please write Termmmmie, Monsignor Pep, or S'gurl...if you have the time.

Darn again...D'dawgie laying on the horn...."keep your muzzle on, Iza' coming!...sheesh? Canines?"

dustkitty,

I've been thinking more about the 'therapy-resistance' aspect in the WS...I keep coming back to the description of the "split self" affair--chiefly the characteristic in which the WS avoids looking at the inner split (which allows him to lead the double life necessitated by a longterm affair).

According to this the "split" is created when people are conditioned or trained or forced to put others' needs before their own--so that explains the disconnect from feelings/needs.

Also, this brings focus on the notion earlier in this thread of marrying for the "right" reasons...perhaps marrying the classic "nice guy".

This is from Emily Brown's book:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos /...oks&vi=reader&img=20#reader-link

She says this type of affair is a man's affair, though that may be changing. I think some of these things are definitely true of me. I can't pinpoint the event that made me aware of the "split" or when I started to go back and resurrect those parts of myself that I suppressed, when getting married.

So the process of defining yourself, or redefining yourself completely separate from others. needs to happen, regardless of your future pairing status.

Think also about the avoidance--not looking at the inner split--and the risks that person has to take in order to go there. This recalls sungirl's post--what makes people change? or enter therapy? or want to find the authentic self?

<small>[ August 30, 2003, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: terminator ]</small>

From that link, there is a phrase that jumps out as related to this thread:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">take refuge in the fantasy of being made whole by another</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">